Podcast Summary: Rachel Maddow Presents – Burn Order, Ep. 4: "Like an Ordinary American"

Release Date: January 19, 2026
Host: Rachel Maddow (MSNOW)

Episode Overview

In this powerful episode, Rachel Maddow traces the story of dissent against the forced incarceration of Japanese Americans during World War II, focusing first on Colorado Governor Ralph Carr—one of the only politicians to publicly oppose the policy—and then spotlighting the ordinary citizens who risked everything to challenge injustice. The episode concludes by setting up the pivotal court cases that would force the U.S. government to defend its actions before the Supreme Court.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Ralph Carr: The Reluctant Politician with Steadfast Principles

• Background:
  • Born to a miner in Colorado and expected to escape the mines through education (00:56).
  • Became a respected country lawyer, then assistant attorney general, U.S. attorney for Colorado, and eventually governor (02:20).
  • Known for his integrity, independence, and principled conservatism (02:48).

Memorable Quote

"We're going home. I don't want any part of this conversation."
— Adam Schrager, recounting Carr’s reluctance to enter politics (03:13)

• Ascension: Reluctantly accepted a gubernatorial run after party pressure, decided in a hotel urinal—winning and rising to national attention (03:57).
• Personal Qualities:
  • Speaks fluent Spanish; comfortable with people of all races.
  • Noted for bridging divides and valuing the Constitution.

Memorable Quote

"This is the politician we all say we want: the one who's not gonna stick a finger in the wind to determine which current they should follow that day."
— Adam Schrager (05:16)

2. The Attack on Pearl Harbor and Carr’s Stand

• Context:
  • After Pearl Harbor, anti-Japanese sentiment exploded, with calls for mass evacuation and even violence (06:38–08:04).
• Carr’s Response:
  • Publicly denounces collective punishment; extends hand of friendship to Japanese Americans.
  • Delivers speeches defending constitutional rights for all, regardless of race or ancestry (08:58).

Notable Moment

"If you harm them, you must first harm me."
— Carr standing before hostile crowds (11:10)

• Lonely Voice:
  • Carr is the sole western governor to welcome Japanese Americans; others overtly hostile (12:00–13:08).
• Backlash:
  • Faces intense public and media opposition, particularly from the Denver Post (14:53–15:45).
  • Carr's stance costs him reelection and his career (18:50).

Quote

"I think what he did is among the most heroic decisions a politician could make, because he dramatically went against his own self-interest."
— Adam Schrager (19:27)

3. Personal Impact: The Inouye Family

• Herbert Inouye’s journey from California through hostile Arizona and New Mexico before being welcomed in Colorado (16:29–17:05):
  • The difference: At the border, a state trooper says, “Welcome to Colorado. Governor Carr and the people of Colorado welcome you.”
• Effect:
  • Three Colorado universities accept Japanese American students.
  • The Japanese American population in Colorado doubles, and new arrivals live freely, not incarcerated (17:28).

4. Powerlessness and The Shift to Citizen Resistance

• Despite Carr’s efforts, federal mandates force a relocation camp in Colorado (18:25).
• Carr’s legacy:
  • One of very few officials to resist—others included only a couple of politicians and mayors (19:37).

5. Civil Disobedience: Gordon Hirabayashi, Min Yasui, and Fred Korematsu

(Starts: 22:30, major segment to 36:48)

Gordon Hirabayashi – Seattle, Washington

• Background: College senior, Quaker, principled American citizen.
• Initial Compliance: Abides by 8pm curfew for Japanese Americans.
• Moral Stand: Stops obeying, decides he can’t comply with unconstitutional order.

Quote

"If the American Constitution means anything at all, this is wrong. And if I believe in the Constitution, I've got to object to this."
— Gordon Hirabayashi (24:45)

• Civil Disobedience:
  • Publicly violates curfew and exclusion order; turns himself in.
  • Convicted, sentenced to 90 days in Tucson; hitchhikes to jail when officials can’t transport him (30:49–31:20).
  • Prison officials don’t recognize him; he insists until they take him in.

Notable Moment

"If I can get there on my own, will you let me serve my time in the work camp?"
— Hirabayashi negotiates for his own jail term and then hitchhikes across states (30:49–31:20)

Min Yasui – Portland, Oregon

• US Army reserve officer, lawyer, and citizen.
• Purposely and openly violates the curfew, seeking arrest as a legal test.
• Initially met with reluctance by police; finally taken into custody after pleading his case (33:33).

Fred Korematsu – Oakland, California

• Young welder, initially tries to evade imprisonment by changing appearance and name.
• Is arrested, denied bail; describes camp conditions as worse than jail (35:04, 36:32).

6. Supreme Court Challenges: Four Cases

• All three men (Hirabayashi, Yasui, Korematsu) and one woman, Mitsuye Endo, take their cases to the Supreme Court (36:48–44:08).

7. Mitsuye Endo: The Case the Government Fears Most

(Starts: 39:33)

• Background: Born and educated in California, state employee, never visited Japan, Christian, brother in the US Army (39:33).
• Fired due to ancestry; her firing part of mass dismissals by the state (40:19).
• Legal Challenge:
  • Joins suit to regain her job; after exclusion orders, the legal focus shifts—from jobs to challenging the constitutionality of the incarceration itself.
  • Chosen as lead plaintiff for being “perfect” (loyal, all-American, non-Buddhist) and brave enough to risk everything (43:58).
• Government Offers to Release Her if She Drops the Case: She refuses, insisting the case must go forward for everyone's sake (46:10–46:23).

Notable Quotes

"If she just dropped her case, they would release her from custody and resettle her ... She refused to do this."
— Chuck Rosenberg (46:10)

"No, I will not drop my case. I will do what's right for everyone."
— Mitsuye Endo (recounted by Frank Abe, 46:23)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments with Timestamps

• On moral clarity:

  “If a majority may deprive a minority of its freedom today, ... then you may be subjected to the same ill will of the majority tomorrow.”
  — Ralph Carr (quote introduced at 09:33–10:13)

• On facing hostility:

  "They'd throw things at us. We thought, well, we're going to get same treatment all over again ... He said, 'welcome to the state of Colorado. Governor Carr and the people of Colorado welcome you.'"
  — Herbert Inouye’s family experience (16:32–17:05)

• On government cowardice and evidence suppression:

  "Ben Dessen recalled all 10 copies of this printed final report and ordered that they be burned."
  — Frank Abe (48:21)

Important Timestamps

• Carr’s rise and values: 00:46–05:58
• Pearl Harbor and wartime hysteria: 06:38–08:04
• Carr’s public stand and backlash: 08:58–15:45
• Japanese American families seek safety in Colorado: 16:29–17:48
• The limits of political resistance: 18:25–19:37
• Hampered legal resistance, Supreme Court preview: 36:48–44:43
• Mitsuye Endo’s case details: 39:33–44:43
• Closing preview: government tries to suppress evidence: 48:14–48:28

Episode Tone and Style

Rachel Maddow’s narration is serious, empathetic, and thick with historical detail. Adam Schrager brings a scholarly but impassioned voice; audio recollections from those involved add poignancy and immediacy. The tone is urgent, reflecting the episode's focus on injustice, courage, and the lonely fight for constitutional rights.

Conclusion

This episode provides a riveting account of how the defense of American values can hinge on the courage of a few individuals—Governor Carr’s lonely defense of the Constitution, and the resolve of Japanese American citizens who refused to surrender their rights. Their defiance in the face of overwhelming odds becomes the catalyst for legal challenges that would test the nation’s principles at the highest level. The episode ends with a preview of government attempts to cover up evidence as these cases head to the Supreme Court.

(For full details, consult specific timestamps above. For more on Ralph Carr’s story, see Adam Schrager’s book, as recommended by Maddow.)