Rachel Maddow Presents: Ultra - Season 2, Bonus Episode Summary

Release Date: November 26, 2024
Episode: Ultra - S2, Bonus: Rachel Maddow in Conversation with Tony Kushner

Introduction

In this bonus episode of Rachel Maddow Presents, Rachel sits down with renowned Pulitzer Prize-winning playwright and screenwriter Tony Kushner to delve into the intricate history of American fascism, Holocaust denial, and the fragility of democratic institutions. The conversation, recorded live in Provincetown, Massachusetts, offers a deep exploration of historical events that mirror current political tensions, emphasizing the importance of understanding the past to safeguard the future.

Exploring American Fascism and Holocaust Denial

Tony Kushner initiates the discussion by addressing the resurgence of fascist ideologies in contemporary politics and the alarming rise in Holocaust denial—a phenomenon he traces back to the 1940s. He expresses surprise at the persistent nature of these ideologies despite the overwhelming evidence and testimonies from World War II.

Tony Kushner (03:12): "I'm sorry that I'm gonna bum you out on your long weekend, but we're here to talk about fascism."

Kushner highlights the role of influential figures like Henry Ford in perpetuating anti-Semitic propaganda through his newspaper, the Dearborn Independent, which disseminated the fabricated Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. This work fueled conspiracy theories that blamed Jews for various societal issues, laying the groundwork for future extremist movements.

Tony Kushner (07:30): "Ford attributes all evil to Jews or to the Jewish capitalists."

The Sedition Trial and Government Complicity

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on the 1944 sedition trial, where individuals were prosecuted for their pro-fascist activities in the United States. Kushner reveals how the trial was sabotaged by influential senators who intervened to have the prosecutor dismissed, effectively burying crucial evidence of Nazi collaboration within American political circles.

Tony Kushner (32:00): "The Justice Department doesn't want to tell this story. It's not interesting."

Kushner criticizes the Justice Department's failure to uphold justice, emphasizing that the miscarriage of this trial allowed fascist ideologies to persist and embed themselves within American society.

The Intersection of Fascism and Civil Rights

Kushner draws parallels between historical fascist movements and the Jim Crow era, labeling segregation as a modern form of fascism. He underscores how eugenics and racial pseudoscience, initially propagated by the Nazis, were adopted by American segregationists to justify discriminatory laws and practices.

Tony Kushner (42:16): "Segregation is fascism. Langston Hughes."

This connection illustrates the broader impact of fascist ideologies beyond overt political movements, permeating social structures and legal frameworks.

Democracy's Vulnerabilities and the Path to Authoritarianism

The discussion transitions to the inherent vulnerabilities within democratic systems that can be exploited by authoritarian leaders. Kushner references Robert Paxton's "Anatomy of Fascism," outlining the five phases through which fascism typically ascends within democratic societies:

1. Emerge from discontent
2. Establish as a political entity
3. Gain support from existing right-wing political entities
4. Consolidate power by hollowing out checks and balances
5. Radically alter the system to maintain indefinite control

He warns that democracies are not immune to these shifts and that complacency can lead to the erosion of democratic institutions.

Tony Kushner (73:17): "We are not immune from these types of historical movements."

The Role of the Press and Public Discourse

Kushner critiques the mainstream press for attempting to maintain objectivity while inherently advocating for democratic principles. He argues that the press's efforts to balance coverage can inadvertently create false equivalencies between democratic institutions and authoritarian threats, undermining public trust and weakening the democratic fabric.

Tony Kushner (75:26): "Democracy doesn't defend itself. It's made up of human beings, including us."

He emphasizes the necessity of a vigilant and proactive media that supports democratic processes without succumbing to the pressures of false balance.

Building Human Connections to Resist Authoritarianism

In addressing strategies to combat rising authoritarianism, Kushner advocates for fostering human-to-human connections. He believes that personal relationships and community engagement can counteract the dehumanizing effects of conspiracy theories and extremist ideologies.

Tony Kushner (79:28): "You can be a human being to them. When you look somebody in the eyes and you see them as a human being, it is harder to want to kill them."

Key Quotes

• Rachel Maddow (01:02): "It's going to be worth the wait. We'll have episode four for you next week."

• Tony Kushner (07:30): "Ford attributes all evil to Jews or to the Jewish capitalists."

• Tony Kushner (32:00): "The Justice Department doesn't want to tell this story. It's not interesting."

• Tony Kushner (42:16): "Segregation is fascism. Langston Hughes."

• Tony Kushner (75:26): "Democracy doesn't defend itself. It's made up of human beings, including us."

Conclusion

This insightful conversation between Rachel Maddow and Tony Kushner serves as a potent reminder of the fragile nature of democracy and the ever-present threats posed by extremist ideologies. By unraveling historical events and drawing connections to present-day political dynamics, the episode underscores the critical importance of vigilance, education, and human connection in preserving democratic institutions against the tides of authoritarianism.

Produced by: Rachel Maddow and Team
For more information: msnbc.com/ultra