A Framework for Communicating Hard News (That Actually Works) 7 | 31

Summary

Podcast Summary: Radical Candor - "A Framework for Communicating Hard News (That Actually Works)" (Episode 7 | 31)

Original Air Date: July 30, 2025
Hosts: Amy Sandler with guest Farah Mitra
Key Focus: Navigating and communicating hard change at work with humanity, empathy, and clarity, using Farah Mitra’s “Communicating Change” framework.

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into a universal leadership challenge: how to communicate hard news—such as layoffs, restructurings, or difficult performance reviews—without sacrificing empathy or honesty. Host Amy Sandler is joined by executive coach and Radical Candor coach Farah Mitra, creator of the Communicating Change framework. With stories from her own life and 15+ years in consulting and people strategy, Farah explains why communicating hard news well matters, what often goes wrong, and provides listeners with concrete, process-driven guidance for balancing care with candor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins of the Framework ([03:08])

• Farah shares two personal stories illustrating the impact of communication style:
  • Negative Experience: Genetic testing results for her daughter delivered in a way that heightened anxiety.
  • Positive Experience: Husband’s unexpected open-heart surgery news, delivered by Stanford Hospital with both care and crystal-clear information.
• Insight: Framing and delivery can shape emotional impact more than the facts themselves.
  • “If she had just switched that around...everything would have been different.” — Farah Mitra [03:38]

2. Why Communicating Change is Hard ([09:13])

• Most leaders default to sharing just the facts to avoid mistakes, but leave out empathy for fear of “messing up” or saying the wrong thing.
• Skill, not Art: Farah emphasizes communicating hard news as a skill to be learned, not an innate talent.
  • “You can’t say, ‘I’m sorry we are letting you go.’...but you can say, ‘I know this is hard for you.’ That’s empathy.” — Farah Mitra [10:05]

3. The “Communicating Change” Framework - 4 Steps ([12:37])

Farah’s actionable process for leaders:

1. Get the Facts Right:
   Clarify who, what, when, where, and how; ensure consistency and accuracy.

2. Check Your Mindset:
   Assess your own emotional state, because your feelings will come through.

3. Consider the Other Person:
   “What do you want them to say or feel after the conversation?” Prepare with empathy.

4. Create a Plan:
   Go beyond the “moment of communication”—plan for ongoing support.

   • “Your emotions will always speak louder than your words in a situation like this.” — Farah Mitra [12:07]

4. Coaching in Action: Mindset Shifts ([15:50])

• Leaders often feel guilt, dread, or frustration, and this colors their message.
• Farah shares an example of helping a leader reframe from “doom and gloom” to “strategic partnership” after layoffs.
  • “She came out feeling, actually, I am not worthless...I’m being quite helpful here.” — Farah Mitra [16:48]

5. Role of Identity & Space for Emotion ([21:12])

• Many leaders struggle because they see tough news as an attack on their identity.
• Farah stresses the need for a “safe, external space” to process emotion before communicating.
  • “Sometimes someone will start this call with just a cry...they just need to grieve.” [21:25]
  • Key coaching questions:
    • “What’s the worst thing about this for you?”
    • “How do you think your mindset will land on the recipient?”
    • “Where do you want to come from?”

6. Navigating Unclear Facts and Messy Realities ([24:25])

• Sometimes organizational facts are not clear; pressing for specificity is key.
• Example: Combining “role elimination” with “performance issue” leads to confusion and erodes trust.
  • “You gotta know which one you’re communicating...if you communicated both, that would be wildly confusing.” — Farah Mitra [25:15]

7. Step 3 in Practice: Designing for Empathy and Acceptance ([28:02])

• In performance review situations, ask: “What do I want them to say and feel?”
  • Example desired response: “This sucks, you’re right. Maybe, thank you.”
  • Reverse engineer the conversation—high empathy, clear and objective feedback.

8. Practical Phrasing and Authenticity ([31:58])

• Farah offers specific phrase templates (tailored in coaching):
  • Empathy: “I know this is hard.”
  • Partnership: “I want to partner in your success and development.”
  • Clarity and fairness: “Here are the expectations for the role, what’s working, and what you have left to improve.”
  • Leave space: “How’s this landing for you?” / “What’s on your mind?”
• Authenticity is crucial; scripts serve as a starting point, not the end.

9. Empathy versus Niceness ([34:28]/[41:14])

• Empathy is direct and kind, while “niceness” can be wishy-washy and confusing.
  • “Sometimes we can be nice instead of kind.”— Farah Mitra [34:34]
• In high-stakes contexts, empathy is undervalued; lack of it leads to “emotional fallout and trust breakdown.”

10. Scaling the Framework in Organizations ([38:14])

• Farah supports entire organizations to build a culture where leaders have structured, safe avenues for practicing and sharpening these skills.
  • “This is humanity being about humanity.” [38:25]
  • Example: Companies using her as a “standing resource” for all leaders during comp, performance, or restructuring seasons.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Impact of Delivery:
  “How you emphasize or your framing of something...is just making the message land differently in a person’s body.” — Farah Mitra [06:11]

• On the Importance of Mindset:
  “Your people are smart and however you feel—it’s going to show through.” — Farah Mitra [12:07]

• On Having a Plan:
  “You’re not done after that moment; you have to support people in that moment, the moment after, and the moment after that.” — Farah Mitra [13:42]

• On Skill-Building:
  “It is actually through the practice...that we get more confidence doing it.” — Amy Sandler [10:52]

• On Empathy in Business:
  “We can’t change the hard, but we can change the experience of the hard.” — Farah Mitra [08:24]

• On Organizational Impact:
  “They are giving their leaders a systematic way to do this...it becomes part of their culture.” — Farah Mitra [39:31]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:08] – Farah’s personal stories that inspired the framework
• [07:26] – Goals & overview of the Communicating Change framework
• [12:37] – The 4-step framework explained
• [15:50] – Example: Mindset shift in leader post-layoff
• [21:12] – Identity, emotion, and safe space
• [24:25] – Clarifying confusing or unclear facts
• [28:02] – Step 3: Designing for recipient’s emotion and acceptance
• [31:58] – Language, phrasing, and scripting
• [38:14] – Implementing the framework at an organizational level
• [41:14] – Why empathy is still underrated in business

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Additional Resources

• Connect with Farah Mitra:
  LinkedIn: @farahmitra
  Email: [e-mail]
• Radical Candor blog article on the Communicating Change framework (linked in show notes)

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Tone & Takeaways

Throughout the episode, the tone balances warmth, candor, and pragmatism—modeling the very principles the podcast teaches. Listeners from any sector or leadership level will find both practical tools and inspiration to approach difficult conversations with more confidence, clarity, and humanity.

Memorable Closing:

“We can’t change the hard. This is just a way to change the experience of the hard. But there are wins for all that come out of it.” — Farah Mitra [42:11]

Transcript

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[Farah Mitra]

Foreign.

[Amy Sandler]

I am so excited to welcome you all to today's live conversation with Farah Mitra. Farah is an executive coach, a Radical Candor coach, and creator of the Communicating Change framework, which we're going to be diving into today. How to communicate how hard news in a way that's honest, that's human, and actually helpful. Whether it's layoffs and restructuring, whether it's performance conversations, big strategic shifts, Fara's work is all about making sure that we don't cause additional harm when change is inevitable. Specializing in leadership, communications and people strategy, Fara brings over 15 years of experience as a Bain strategy consultant, also a people and culture executive at hypergrowth tech companies, and has clients that span the C Suite at Fortune 50 companies to small startups and nonprofits across a variety of industries. And I think most important, Farah totally gets it. She's been a leader, an HR leader in hypergrowth change environments. And I think one of the things that I love most is that she is laser focused on balancing results with pragmatism. But I say this as someone who's gotten to know Farah well these past few years because Farah is one of our Radical Candor coaches. She's a communication expert. She's led over 200 radical candor workshops. Most of all, she's someone I consider a friend and a friend with a lot of wisdom that I know that you're going to really enjoy this conversation. Welcome Farah.

[Farah Mitra]

Thank you so much. Amy. Thank you so much.

[Amy Sandler]

Yes, well, I'm so excited not only just to spend time with you, I always enjoy it, but you have developed a framework that I think is so helpful and actionable for people, something that they really struggle with, which is how do you communicate change so please tell us, where did this come from? Where did the idea for the Communicating Change framework begin?

[Farah Mitra]

Yeah. So Amy, you would think I would give you a big corporate story, but honestly, this stems from two moments in my life. The first one was when we had our daughter. So in California, when you were over a certain age and having a baby, they do ask you to get some genetic testing to make sure everything's okay. And so we're going into the appointment. We are actually quite anxious about the whole thing. We sit down, Amy. I can remember the room, I remember the chairs we were sitting in. I remember the view out the window. And the genetic counselor is like ready to deliver her news. And she says to me, you have a 1 in 290 chance of your daughter having a very severe birth defect, which is totally normal for your age and a 0.3% probability of happening. I cannot tell you, Amy. Like my husband's and I like our hearts fell through the floor. Like I could feel that feeling of anxiety in that news that felt so terrible. But if she had to switch that around, like this is totally normal for your age, this is a 0.3% probability that happens to be a 1 in 290 chance. Everything would have been different. So in my mind, not only was that a bad communication, but it's one that has stuck with me for years. On the flip side, my husband Monty, he had a surprise open heart surgery. And it was a day before our wedding contract, before we signed the wedding contract. And Stanford Hospital called us in and they gave us the news. And you would think that it was so stressful. You would think like, you're about to get married, you're very young, you're having this open heart surgery. And it wasn't. They delivered this with so much care, Amy. They knew we had a wedding. They recognized we had a wedding. Like, talk about care personally, in the language of radical candor. They knew that they empathize, that this might be hard for us. And they were crystal clear. There was no wishy washy, maybe you do, maybe you don't. There's no anxiety, there was no uncertainty. They were clear on the why, the context and what we had to do. So it's really interesting to me that while that should have been incredibly stressful, it wasn't because they did a really good job. And I think the difference for me between these two examples is exactly why I care about communicating these big hard things. I've been in hyperchange and hypergrowth environments and high performance environments. And if you're trying to be in a high performance environment, often even in tech, where you're trying to create something that's never been created before, things are going to change on the weekly basis. I think that combined with these experiences I've had at work with a lot of change has just made communicating change so darn important to me.

[Amy Sandler]

Yeah. First of all, thank you so much for sharing about those really vulnerable and impactful moments. I think we can all relate from our own sort of whatever are examples of change. So yeah, if you were to say, you know, what would you, what would it have looked like for that practitioner to have embodied both radical care personally and challenge directly in communicating change, what would you have wanted them to do?

[Farah Mitra]

I think I would have wanted them to keep the care personally short because I don't like I'm waiting on the news. I think they would say, hey, I know this can be anxiety producing for people and I just want you to know, like your tests are normal. Right. There is a 0.3% probability that your daughter can have this birth defect. It's actually very normal for your age. And they could have said or not said the 1 in 290. Right. Because they think what matters is that it was exceptional small. So I think it's like flipping the script. And I think a lot of times in corporate stuff as well, people are always like, I can't do this thing or I'm so sorry we're doing this versus like, here's what I can do, here's what it will look like. The message can be the same, but like you said, how you emphasize or your framing of something, it's not changing the message, it's just making the message land differently in a person's body.

[Amy Sandler]

That is. Well, I just heard you say like how it lands in the body and obviously both of those were really, you know, you can still feel, I can hear and see that you can actually still feel what it was like to sit in both of those waiting rooms actually the physical differences in your body. We're going to get into your communicating change framework in a moment. So before we dig into it, first of all, what is it? Can you explain just at a high level and then we'll get into more details.

[Farah Mitra]

Yeah. So the framework has, the making change framework has a few goals. The first one, which I think people don't talk about a lot, is I really want to give leaders more comfort and confidence because I think what you typically get is just a bunch of facts. Then you get to go out and communicate that, so having that comfort and confidence, especially when you care deeply about your people, is super important. Second, I want companies to have forward momentum. There is a reason why you're making a change. You're trying to get to somewhere new. So that change is important. It is thought through, it is made. And I want to help companies gain that forward momentum. And then, Amy, I'm not. I know you won't be surprised. The thing that's very near and dear to my heart is how to give employees an exceptional or like a more positive experience. Right. Like, it might be tricky, but how can we get them the most positive experience possible? Right. So, you know, through some layoffs, you'll see people complaining on LinkedIn, but this company treated me with so much integrity and so much respect that I wish them well. Right. And so I can't change the hard, but my hope through this is to change the experience of the hard.

[Amy Sandler]

Yeah, yeah. And, and I mean, so aligned with radical candor. You know, in the, obviously in the book, Kim Scott talks about how when she had to fire someone, how they actually stayed connected and, you know, and it ended up being a, a really trust building experience between those people. And it feels very aligned with what you're talking about. You mentioned about comfort and confidence and you might be given facts, but not much else. And so why do you think this is something that we are just, why is this not a skill that we have been been, you know, practiced in? Like where. Why are we all coming from such a deficit, do you think?

[Farah Mitra]

Yeah, I think a couple things. One, we're just always focused on the business, right. I think radical candor is bringing humanity to business and personal. Right. There are these other things you can do, but this is my sense. My sense is a lot of this is in empathy and a lot of this is in clarity. Right. When you have a big major business decision and you need to get it right, it can be hard to put empathy in there. It can be hard to put the skill in there because at the end of the day you don't want to screw it up. So if you stick to the objective and not the subjective, you have maybe a higher chance of getting it right in people's head. Right. Like, if I stay right to that technical message or there's nothing I add to it, then I can land it. But as soon as I add in this objective, my sense is it feels riskier or leaders don't know how to put it in. They don't know what they can say, what they can't say. So they leave it out. But Amy, the reality is like, this is a skill. Just like radical Candor, this is a skill. So, for example, you can't say, I'm sorry, we are letting you go. Right. That makes it sound like a mistake. That's probably not a good business practice. But I think you can say something like, I know this is hard for you. I know this is a hard experience. That's empathy. That's not going to mess with what you're trying to accomplish. In fact, I think it's going to help people to process that decision and move on and be supporters going forward. So I think it is a skill. I think we get scared of how to put that human element into business. And I think people's focus might be elsewhere. I think we're just laser focused on getting to the next thing. I'm curious what you think about that.

[Amy Sandler]

Yeah, I really see that. I also, you know, I was leading a Radical Candor workshop a couple of weeks ago and someone said when they were introducing me how it's actually in the practicing of Radical Candor that we get more confidence doing it. Very often we think like, oh, let me just get a little more confidence and then once I get enough confidence and enough courage, then I'll start doing it. And in fact, it's sort of the other way around. And it's actually through the practice. This is very similar. The other thing that you're naming is that I have found when people, you know, we have this antipathy towards uncertainty and change. We're wired that way, of course. Right. As human beings. So we have to out create that. And one of the things that I think you've done so well from your background as a process expert is you've created a process that gives kind of a scaffolding to support the more emotional, empathy based conversation. And I think it's having a structure that people can kind of hang on to, gives them maybe some of that comfort and confidence that they might not have.

[Farah Mitra]

Yeah, I mean, plus 1,000. Right. At the end of the day, in my coaching or in this style of coaching, the goal is to systematically know how to do something right. And the nice thing is we have a system and we have empathy and we have clarity baked into the system. Right. And I think the goal is how do you help people have that process? And we do that through the coaching. But then frankly, they get to walk away with something that they know how to replicate for themselves that they feel more comfortable doing that they've seen in the wild doing right and the coaching helps them get there.

[Amy Sandler]

Great. So you do this as a coaching process, but walk us through. Let's say I'm just starting with you. You're my coach, leading me through a difficult change process. Like, what would the process look like?

[Farah Mitra]

Yeah. So there's two pieces to it. First, I'll give you the four pieces of the framework and then we can get into how you execute it. So in the framework, there are four steps. So the nice thing is it's always four steps. And there is a client template that will help you think this through. So step one is you got to get the facts right. Step two is to check in with yourself and check in with your mindset. Because, Amy, your people are smart and however you feel it's going to show through, your emotions will always speak louder than your words in a situation like this. So if you are frustrated, you are dreading it, you feel guilty, people will know. So you got to check in with your mindset. You've got to make that shift. And then step three, you've checked in with yourself. You gotta think about the other person, you've gotta check in and think about what's going on for that person. And I'll give you a tip in a little while around thinking about what do you want them to feel and say afterwards. And then the last step is you've gotta have a plan. You have to have a plan that doesn't just hit that one moment, you're not done right. You've gotta support people in that moment, the moment after that, and the moment after that. So that's often shortchanged, but it's get the facts right, check in with your mindset, get in the right headspace, check in with how other people might be feeling, what they need, and then make a plan. Those are the four steps in the process.

[Amy Sandler]

And you kind of have them go through these steps themselves in a template before they do the coaching. Is that the sort of order of operations? Yes.

[Farah Mitra]

I'd say leaders spend. This is going to sound kind of shocking, but leaders spend 10 to 15 minutes in the template and ask them simple questions. We go into a coaching session together so they're prepared. I can be leveraged, I can read. Nbs. We go into a coaching session together and I will tell you, Amy, we spend the majority and we can dig into this more, but we spend the majority of their time on their mindset. Again, because if they're frustrated, they're going to come across as frustrated. If they feel guilty, it's going to be Guilt and we should watch you. So we spend a lot of time coaching on the mindset. We go through the four steps, we'll look like we spend the majority of our time. Once we've unlocked the mindset, we're really together coming up with phrasing, like effective phrasing that not just won't work, more frankly, like feels authentic to them and feels comfortable to them. Right. The companies that do this are high performers. So you have really smart people, they're like, okay, got it. I'm not frustrated anymore. I want to be supportive. And they're generally off to the races. So as wild as it sounds, it's usually like 10 to 15 minutes of pre work, 30 minutes together and then they go off and make it happen. I've been surprised that it's usually a one shot conversation that's 30 minutes.

[Amy Sandler]

Well, I think people will be very happy to hear that because, you know, we're all so busy and I think very often when people think about things, especially around sort of emotions and communication and mindset, we think this is, you know, a 20 year therapy project, which I'm also a fan of, of course, but like we gotta, we gotta keep moving. And so you talked about, you know, that step to checking in with your own mindset, whether it's guilt or dread. I'd love to hear some examples and maybe some folks that you've worked with where there was a shift and from your own perspective, like, what was it that enabled that shift in mindset?

[Farah Mitra]

Yeah, so remember step one, get the facts. But step two goes right to you and your mindset. So in step two, the idea is no matter how good an actor or actress you are, it's going to come through how you feel. So the goal is to figure that out with that person. So I'll give you an example. And then we talked about how you could get to a picture session. So in this example, I worked with somebody who lost a significant portion of their team. They felt terrible because they realized they could no longer service other functions. Like they didn't have enough people or bandwidth to do that anymore. And the conversation was, how do I go tell this other leader who's my peer that I'm kind of not going to be able to help as much anymore. And so when I asked them all about their mindset, ad was like terrible. I feel like my, like my entire credibility will last be lost. My fun, like my whole function will be seen as like a little bit worthless, like pretty doom and gloom. And the communication they wrote out was Doom and gloom. The phrases were, I'm so sorry, I lost all my people. I can't help it was. And remember, these are exceptionally smart people. They want, like that's how the person felt. So that's how they were going into it. Right. And then we did the coaching. We're like, well, let's, let's think about more what mindset you want to be interested. Well, what I want to be is a more strategic partner to this person. And I'm realizing like, one, this is a business decision. Two, this is actually quite temporary. They realize, like this is temporary, like things are going to go back to a different status though. And three, I can still help, I have people, I can still be helpful. Right. And so when we created that communication together, Amy, it was much more positive. It was more partner oriented. That question was. Or that discussion, sorry, went a little bit more like, hey, as we know, we've all lost people. I still want to be a strategic partner to you. Let's sit down and let's talk about your priorities and figure out what we can get you. And for the things we can't, let's figure out a plan for those things. That's a much more partnership oriented door is open, not closed. There's a place to go. Actually, when we came out of that conversation, she was like, this person, this person was like, wow, actually I am not worthless. I'm actually a pretty strategic leader. I'm actually being quite helpful here in a hard situation to come forward quite positively. So like I said, one of the really amazing things is you see people come out feeling confident. You see them feeling com, like, oh, I get it, like I get how to do this and there's some mindset matters and like you get to have an impact on the person on the other end. We just talked about more of a corporate function, but there's also examples with performance review ratings and comp decisions and other hard things where you really get to have an impact on the person as well.

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[Farah Mitra]

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[Amy Sandler]

As you describe that coaching conversation and the sort of light bulb there, my experience is that very often these mindset shifts are because of a kind of embedded identity that we have. So I'm imagining this person that he identified as someone I'm a leader, I take care of my team. If I've lost people, I've failed. And that there's a larger identity issue. So it's sort of about my own identity and my own kind of needing to process that. Right. And so part of what I hear is happening in the self reflection through the kind of question process you have them go through. And then the coaching is I first need to actually acknowledge like there's, there's this piece that happened.

[Farah Mitra]

Yes.

[Amy Sandler]

And in the communication let me now anchor more towards where I want to go. So I need to kind of acknowledge that this happened for myself. But as I'm communicating I can communicate from almost a different level of identity a hundred percent.

[Farah Mitra]

And Amy, I will tell you when it it actually this happens in all different situations. Sometimes someone will start this call with just a cry. They just have to get out how hard it is. And so one of the things that I think they appreciate is that this is an external like safe space to do that. It's not I have to cry with my HR person. Like there's nothing wrong with that. But sometimes people can like hold back or feel bad if it's someone internally. So there's a safer space. But to your point, I mean sometimes people cry like they just need a space, like you said, to mourn or to grieve and they just need some good questions to help them see it differently. Right. So for me, it's like the question I ask is first I just ask, what's the worst thing about this whole thing for you? Like what? Just like you said, like, mourn it, grieve it, get it, and then I make it more tangible, which is what's the mindset you're in? Like, give me the phrase backstabber. Like, I'm the one who hired this person. Now I'm a backstabber. I'm. I feel terrible, I feel frustrated. And then the magic question is, well, how do you think that's going to land for someone if you come from frustrated? Or how do you think it's going to land for someone? Usually it's like sad or guilty or terrible. Oh, gosh, I'm going to be wishy washy. And to your point, I say, well, where do you want to come from? Like, oh, I want to be. I just talked to someone the other day. They said, I want to be supportive, caring and fair. Okay, if you came from supporting, caring and fair, what could you say that's authentic? And it's like, if you think about the radical candor language that we use all the time, what I'm really trying to do is not just shift the mindset, but I'm helping them go from nice to kind. Because we can't change the situation. I cannot change. If you're getting a performance review rating that you don't like or layoff or that can't change, we can change that experience for that person. Again, I'm being a broken record by helping it land. Right. And that's the, like, going from nice can be confusing or nice can be hard and kind. Like, oh, I can come out and say, well, that sucked, but thank you. You know, like, you're right, I get it. You don't have to like it, but you can feel good about how that landed for you in your world.

[Amy Sandler]

Yeah. And, and with that, how that lands, you know, even when people share stories of when they receive radical candor, it's not going to necessarily feel great in that moment. Right. It's sort of, yeah, that this, this sucks. We agree with that. And yet, you know, that is an act of compassion, that they were as clear, as clear as they could have been. I wanted to go back when you talked about the four steps, and the first one was around the facts. And sometimes it can be actually hard to get them. And so I can imagine there's certain communications that need to happen where it's not crystal clear, are we virtual? What's happening there? You Know all of these different changes, tariffs are we up and down. And so how have you found when? Actually the facts are not crystal clear for folks. How do you kind of adapt or flex your framework with that?

[Farah Mitra]

Yeah. So one, the good news is the template kind of makes you think it through. So the template will ask for the who, what, when, where, how. Two, I think part of it, when you say adapt, to me, it's like more coaching. So I'll give you an example. I had someone who had to terminate someone's employment. And in their get the facts right box in the template, they said both that the role was being eliminated and that the person wasn't performing. You gotta know which one you're communicating. Right. Not performing gives someone a certain message, knows that they didn't do well. That gives them maybe a place to grow and learn from ending the employment because you're eliminating the rules. Very different. Like, okay, well, that's. They're different. What this person was doing was actually putting both in the communication. And that was wildly confusing. We had to really get to like, we gotta pick a length. We gotta be really clear on which one it is. So I think the role again in the coaching can be to help clarify or to help point that out. Because if they wrote it in the template, they didn't actually choose a length. Right. They actually had both. So what were you gonna say part of that to me?

[Amy Sandler]

Oh, no. What was sparking for me was my previous roles were in communication. I ran communications ex executive communications at UCLA years ago and just had other roles. And what I have found in being a communications leader is that you often have to winnow through a variety of different perspectives and messages from different parts of the organization. Because finally, you're the one that actually has to put it out there. And so when something is not clear, it becomes clear as the communications person that it's not clear.

[Farah Mitra]

It also becomes, if you don't get that clarity and it goes out into the world, that is just a hot mess. And that's traumatizing. And then. But that's trust breaking.

[Amy Sandler]

Yeah.

[Farah Mitra]

Because then you're starting to pick a lane and figure out what it is and isn't. And you have to clarify versus, like, this is the piece that we need to communicate.

[Amy Sandler]

Yeah. I mean, really, this is all about trust in many ways. And what I love, you're sort of operationalizing it. You know, you're putting it into practice. What coaching tips have you found to help people pick their lane? Like, how do they know it's about the Role being eliminated versus the poor performance.

[Farah Mitra]

Yeah. Are you asking how can they suss that out for themselves?

[Amy Sandler]

Or are there certain lines of inquiry that you found especially helpful to kind of coach someone to get more clear?

[Farah Mitra]

Yeah. I mean, I think one is what are the implications of each of those things? Because they start to see how different those implications are. What are the implications for that person or that audience or that group? Right. What does that mean for how you have to handle the situation? I think often what you're doing is it's not, again, that the person isn't smart, because that's not the case at all. It's just more you're being a thought partner, like you said. You're asking the questions to just get clear. And then this person will say, well, maybe we are eliminating the role. But at the end of the day, the person needs to know they're not performing. Right. Like getting through. What is that thing that is the most important thing when there is confusion, what is the thing that's at the forefront? And actually the other question is, if you communicated both, what would happen? The person's like, oh, gosh, that would be wildly. I get it now. That would be confusing. And that lends maybe a little bit well to step three, which is understanding their needs and what they most need in the moment as well.

[Amy Sandler]

Yeah. Let's talk about step three. So we've. We've worked on our own mindset. We've clarified the facts as best we could. Give me an example of step three. Maybe we talked about a strategic decision or letting go of resources, but give me another example.

[Farah Mitra]

Yeah. So, I mean, first of all, gold stars for, like, knowing the steps. Good job. So step three is. It is just like I love step two and step three, because step two, you're figuring yourself out. Step three, you're figuring out the other person. And together there is magic. So a person who had to deliver a performance review rating was going to be a bit of a surprise. It was going to be not what the person was hoping for. And this person was dreading this conversation. They were worried the person was going to be very defensive. So in step, by the way, I.

[Amy Sandler]

Think there's a lot of. I can relate.

[Farah Mitra]

Plus one, this is a hot topic.

[Amy Sandler]

Yep.

[Farah Mitra]

And the question that I like to ask. You've been asking about inquiry and good questions lately. Question that I like to ask in step three is because we're checking with the other person and what they need is what do you want the person to say and feel after the communication? So in this performance review rating where they thought they would be defensive and it wasn't going to be a pleasant thing and everybody's dreading it. When I asked that, the manager said, I want them to say this sucks. You're right. And maybe a thank you because this manager is not dreaming that we're just gonna. It's. Yeah, it does suck. Like, you have to be grounded in reality. So they wanted them to say this sucks because that's true. Like, it is sucky. It's real. But they also want to be acceptance of the performance review because they wanted the person to stay there and keep doing their thing. And so what you're able to do is when you know you want the person to say this sucks. And I get it. Thank you for kind of having my back and giving this feedback. Then, you know, two things have to happen if you're going to reverse engineer one, you want to be really high on empathy. So the empathy phrasing could be, I know this is really hard. And then maybe it's not what you wanted. That's being really high enough that you're going to hear a lot of like Radical Candor tie ins here. And then with the feedback around the performance rating, you have to be very clear. You have to be clear. You know, in the words of Radical Candor, we take personality out of it. It is not personalized. It is very objective. It is very like you're optimizing for that feedback to land and for them to see it. So a lot of times what we'll do is say, what do you want the person to say and feel afterwards? Now, if you wanted them to say that, how would you reverse engineer this conversation versus Let me reverse engineer this? This is the outcome I want. This is the event. This is the mindset I'm going to come from. So if somebody wants to be fair, supportive and caring and they want the person to say this sucks, but you are right. Thank you. Then you have like actually a really high probability of starting to phrase some conversations.

[Amy Sandler]

Yeah, I. I love, you know, being an English major who also went to film school but wished as I was better at process. I love this. And I'm wondering, you know, one of the things we do, our Radical Candor workshops, Farah, as you know, we have so many great frameworks, but we don't get into too much scripting. Even though people want us to give them the word, just give me the words. But obviously it's going to be more different because it's a one on one conversation.

[Farah Mitra]

Yeah.

[Amy Sandler]

What I'm hearing in your one on one coaching, which is a different sort of animal here, is that you are able to actually work with your coachee on some possible phrases that might get that person to it sucks and you're right or I accept it is. Am I hearing that right?

[Farah Mitra]

Yes. And I forgot to give you the punchline of that story, which is the next day the manager did email and they did say, wow, this person said this sucks. But I get it. Oh my God. I read the email. I'm like, nailed it.

[Amy Sandler]

Were they wearing it on their shirt?

[Farah Mitra]

Really nailed it. But tell me your question again.

[Amy Sandler]

Yeah, I'm just wondering whether that example or another one, you know, for folks who are listening who are like, oh, give me some of the. Okay, yeah, I have a hard performance review and obviously you know, we're not saying like use this exact phrase, but I would love to know some specific wording or phrases, especially with a tough performance review so that it is crystal clear. What have you found works best?

[Farah Mitra]

Yes. So I guess a couple things. One, stepping back, you asked if I give people phrasing. I do, because this is hard and I've done it for 20 years. I have that pattern recognized. Some coaches will only do inquiry based. I am kind of the rebel coach. I will help you figure it out for yourself. And I do have some expertise and experience that I feel comfortable and confident in that will help people. We don't have a ton of time, people are busy. So I do give people phrasing and then I ask, how do you put that into your own? Like one, how does that resonate for you? Do you like it? Like what do you like? What would you tweak and then how would you put it into your own words? So we're not giving them the answer but giving them a place to start and then make it their own. Because at the end of the day you can't use my words. That will not feel authentic. And this is a process about feeling comfortable and comfortable is about authenticity. Phrases that help. I know this is hard. I think that is a beautiful. Because you are not saying I'm sorry you got this rating because it's the rating, right? The rating is the rating. I know this is hard for you. I want to partner in your success and your development because it says I'm sure by your side. I want to be helpful to you. The word partner is one of my absolute favorite words in the world because it really shows that you're in it with someone versus them being alone in something. But I Don't think you have to have a lot of phrases, because when you have a lot of phrases, you kind of start meandering and all over the place. But I think one thing that is also helpful, that I think is really something I learned in Radical Candor, too, is after you've said your couple things, you also just leave space. What's on your mind? Like, how's this landing for you? Listen, to understand, not to respond. Right. There's a lot of themes that are similar. So I don't know that we need a ton of phrases behind, like the empathy and the recognition in the partnership. But what we do need is to then give some air and some space as well.

[Amy Sandler]

Yeah. And what about in terms of the clarity? Because for some people, the empathy will come more naturally for. I will put myself in that category. But for me, where coaching I think could be helpful is in getting very clear on what am I saying of, you know, in the last year, you've seen a decline by 20% of incoming leads or, you know, whatever the issue is. So I'm just curious, how do you partner with the person to help them clarify their thinking and get to the actual delivery in a way that they can feel like, okay, I don't need to keep throwing more stuff onto it just to be as clear as possible. Yes.

[Farah Mitra]

Two things I think are true. One, with the empathy, it is easier for some people, but sometimes they're nice instead of kind of.

[Amy Sandler]

I think that's a great distinction.

[Farah Mitra]

I just want to be clear. Like, we can have empathy, but sometimes we will say, oh, and like, I'm so sorry, that doesn't. It's a. Let's talk about. It's hard for them. Right. So I do think sometimes we can be nice instead of kind. So I agree with you on the empathy, but sometimes I think we can confuse people and get wrong there. On the clarity piece, I think a lot of the things I teach people are the two things. One is, Amy, it's gonna sound funny, but most people have it. Like, when they start telling me the thing, I just start writing down what they say because they've got it. They're like, hey, I really care about this person, and they have done well, and there are places that they need to improve and hear the three places. I'm like, there it is. Yeah, there it is. So they just start telling me all the things, and they say it. They've already said the thing. And then when I play it back, they're like, oh, I do know the thing now, if they don't know the thing. I think some of the things I like to share this is again, tied into giving feedback is like, you should use and like, there are things you do well and there are things that can be improved, like the word, but can be really triggering. So we'll capture some of those things. Or someone who wants to get promoted. I hear you want to get promoted, and I want to partner with you in that success or that development. Like, the way that I want to most help, feel, be most helpful to you is I want to come back to you with the expectations for the role, what's working and where you still have left to improve and see where that lands and what the next steps would be. Most people think that conversation is, you have to be like, yeah, let's get you promoted, or I'm so sorry, but you don't have to do that in that conversation. The conversation is, hey, I hear that you want to get promoted. I hear it's really important to you. So here are some really thoughtful next steps that we should go through. And when you have a structure like that, here's the expectations, here's where you're doing well, here's what you have left to improve on. That paints the picture in and of itself. Right? And so I think people often in these coaching sessions, they're coming in with dread because they think it's all about the bad news and letting someone down. But if someone came out of a position promotion conversation with me with that, I would go back to my friends and say how that person's incredibly thoughtful, like, they have my back. They're actually going to do an assessment of where I am. Like, that sounds fair. That sounds thoughtful. That sounds caring. A helper or a pleaser kind of will take us to jump versus to take a step back and think about how we can thoughtfully engage in these conversations in a way that doesn't feel like a letdown. It actually feels like a fair, thoughtful, supportive conversation. What does that land for?

[Amy Sandler]

Oh, yeah. I mean, I think it's really all about kind of a reframe and a reset of, first of all, what do we really want to accomplish with this conversation and what does success look like? And I think that almost redefined. Oh, success is them saying to their friend, I'm so bummed. It really sucks. And I'm so grateful that Farah shared this with me in that way. Like, I really did feel it. It sucked. And I felt really supported.

[Farah Mitra]

Yeah. Or step three, actually, my manager's right. I'm not ready to be Promoted yet. And we're going round because we have three things left to do.

[Amy Sandler]

I see this all the time in our radical candor stories. That sense of like that got your back, I've got your back. We're in this together. The languaging, you know, rather than, you know, sort of you versus we, like we are in this together.

[Farah Mitra]

That is my favorite word.

[Amy Sandler]

You have worked with clients across a variety of different industries and I'm just curious, like more on shifting back from a personal level to a more company wide level where the framework actually across the board made a difference.

[Farah Mitra]

Yeah. So a couple things. I use this a lot in my executive coaching. So it will hit every industry from a nonprofit to a big company to a small company. Because at the end of the day, Amy, this is humanity being about humanity or I will have clients want to use this for their entire company. So I have worked with a company now for about two years and what is going on with them is they know that change is constant and so they keep me on and I am a consistent resource to their HR team, to all of their leadership team, any people leader, and actually any IC as well, to be able to come to me in that safe space. And what happens is, Amy, you'll see is it'll be comp season and I'll get a whole bunch of pings and then it'll be performance review season and I'll get pings or an hr. BP will go to an off site and realize there's a strategic pivot coming and they'll tell that person they can reach up to me. And so what's nice is that you can do this in executive coaching in a one off way or you can create a resource for the leaders in your company to come when they need. And I don't, it's all confidential. I don't have to tell them who did. Like, you know, we keep it a safe space. But it is. What I love about this one company is they are giving their leaders a systematic way to do this because like this is the best thing ever. I'm going to use this every time I have a hard conversation or like I know exactly how I want to do this in the future or you know, it becomes a part of their culture to know that one, their companies care enough to give them this resource and two, to teach them how to do it. So sprinklings of clients or you can do this with a company and then there'll be a workshop and things like that to bring it even more systematically.

[Amy Sandler]

At scale yeah, And I think what's really important, what you're highlighting is that, you know, we practice radical candor and ongoing feedback and sort of relationship building and that's going to, you know, ebb and flow in terms of maybe most of the time it will be slight adjustments or tweaks there, but then we will have some real change that needs to be addressed. And I think what I love about what you talked about with the company is that there will always be changes to discuss. You know, there will always be these sort of bigger ticket items where we need to feel like we are resourced for those as well. And so I love that, you know, it's like, let's plan ahead. Let's know that there's always going to be change, there's always going to be uncertainty. How can we support ourselves so that in that moment we're ready and resourced.

[Farah Mitra]

They're grateful to the company. They're like, this is so amazing that I have a place to go that I can get this coaching and support. Because, Amy, this ties back to your first comment, which is this is a skillset. This is a skill that we can learn and we can get comfortable with and we can get there over time to know how to do this on our own. But I do love that there's a structure and a process to get people there.

[Amy Sandler]

Yeah, I love it too. Before we close, I did just want to go back to empathy because, you know, you had talked about your husband's open heart surgery and we talked a little bit about empathy and sort of that distinction between nice and kind. But why still do you think empathy is so underrated in business?

[Farah Mitra]

I just think it's high stakes. You gotta land that message. We have to make sure people know what's happening. Can't put anything subjective in there. Can't risk the message going wrong.

[Amy Sandler]

That's. It's such a counterintuitive thing. Right? We think the very thing that's gonna make, you know, and it's measure, choice, cut once or something. We sometimes think that if we don' do it, it will be more effective. And then we end up having to.

[Farah Mitra]

There is emotional fallout. We, we see it because I think every single one of us has a horror story about how something was communicated personally or professionally, and how it took a lot of emotion and time and stress and anxiety and uncertainty to get past that thing. And so if we can add some humanity to what we're doing, then actually everybody wins. Because again, the leader gets to be more authentic, the company gets what it needs to move forward. It's created people with humanity. They can process, they can move on and the person gets to have a better, non damaging, non harmful human experience of hard things. Because change is just very, very hard. It's hard and we cannot change the hard. This is just a way to change the experience of the hard. But there are wins for all that come out of it.

[Amy Sandler]

Well Farah, I love this. Thank you so much for bringing so much clarity and humanity to hard changes. Before we head out, how can people follow up with you or learn more about your Communicating Change framework?

[Farah Mitra]

Yes, I will love to geek out anytime about this and support anyone who has this on their mind. But you can get me on LinkedIn. I'm super active on LinkedIn @farah vitra or my email is farah green read group.com and Radicals Candor has written a beautiful article on the Communicating Change framework that I think we can share as well out to everybody. So please do contact me. I really genuinely feel passionate about this and would love to be supported anyone who could use it.

[Amy Sandler]

Well Farah, I love the conversation. We'll drop that blog post into the show notes. Heartfelt thanks for joining us and for sharing your wisdom and hard earned expertise. I love also just all the ways that you have helped both individuals and organizations. I think it all started on the back of a napkin. If I'm not mistaken, you have created a process out of really effective, helpful conversations. If this conversation resonated with you as a listener, please do share it with a colleague or a leader. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you next time.

[Farah Mitra]

Thank you.

[Amy Sandler]

Thanks Farah. The Radical Candor Podcast is based on the book Radical Be a kick ass boss without losing your humanity by Kim Scott. Episodes are written and produced by Brandy Neal with script editing by me, Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoph and is hosted by me still Amy Sandler. Nick Karisimi is our audio engineer. The Radical Candor Podcast theme music was composed by Cliff Goldmacher. Follow us on LinkedIn Radical Candor the company and visit [e-mail].

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[Farah Mitra]

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