Radical Candor: Communication at Work

Episode 7: Are Flat Organizations More Efficient? Kim and Jason Weigh In
Hosts: Kim Scott & Jason Rosoff
Release Date: September 17, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff unpack a timely and much-debated workplace topic: the myth of the flat organization. Against the backdrop of widespread tech layoffs and organizational restructuring, they explore whether flat organizations are truly more efficient, what gets lost in translation during push towards fewer managerial layers, and how actual managerial effectiveness relates to hierarchy, decision-making, and collaboration.

Their conversation weaves personal experiences, practical management tactics, and reflections from tech giants like Google and Apple. The episode is rich with actionable insights for managers, organizational designers, and anyone wrestling with today’s workplace realities.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “Flat Organization” Fallacy

[03:27 – 05:34]

• Two Myths Addressed:
  • Layoffs inherently drive efficiency ("fewer people = better results").
  • Fewer hierarchical layers automatically improve performance.
• Kim’s Take:
  • “The myth of the flat organization is that the fewer layers there are between the most junior employee and the CEO, the better.”
  • In reality, flatter orgs can overload managers, making it impossible to be effective.
• Google’s “Rule of Seven” vs. “Rule of Five”:
  • Google wanted every manager to have at least seven direct reports to reduce layers.
  • Kim adapted this for herself, capping at five direct reports:
    “If you’re going to be a manager, you shouldn’t have more than five direct reports because… you’re not going to be able to have the kinds of one on ones… you’re going to burn out.” [09:47]

2. Why Flattening Appeals (But Fails in Practice)

[05:34 – 07:53]

• Flattening is seen as the remedy to “information gatekeeping” and slow decision-making.
• Jason observes companies think they’ll avoid the pitfalls of hierarchical “telephone,” but instead just strip managers of their ability to actually manage.
• Key Insight:
  • “The desire for a flat organization is often less about efficiency and more about discomfort with hierarchy. But some hierarchy is necessary for collaboration at scale.” – Kim [07:08]

3. What Do Good Managers Actually Do?

[09:32 – 12:16]

• Management requires real, regular 1:1s and time for coaching—not just administrative oversight.
• Kim’s calculation:
  • Following best practices from Radical Candor, a manager needs ~10 hours a week for management duties, assuming 5 direct reports.
  • With more, burnout is inevitable:
    “…even, like, I really like people and I really liked my team, but if I had more than one, one on one per day, I did not do a good job on the second one.” – Kim [09:47]

4. Entrepreneurship Inside Hierarchy

[14:16 – 16:06]

• Both hosts share that their most entrepreneurial experiences came within large, collaborative hierarchical organizations—not startups.
• Quote:
  “When I got to Google, I realized that I could be more entrepreneurial in that context than I had been at my own company… they had really focused on setting up a hierarchy that was very collaborative.” – Kim [14:16]
• Shona Brown’s model at Google: systematically take unilateral power from managers, forcing leadership through relationships and collaboration.

5. Authority vs. Power, and Decision-Making

[17:44 – 18:59]

• Big orgs often conflate authority (“can direct a team”) with power (“can unilaterally make high-impact decisions”).
• Too much power at the wrong layers leads to bad, demoralizing decision overrides:
  “They’ll make a decision and their decision will be overridden by someone they don’t even know…” – Jason [16:20]
• Collaborative hierarchy: enough authority to act, but processes prevent arbitrary power grabs.
• “Flattening” without fixing decision and communication processes never solves the problem. [19:59]

6. The Hidden Costs of Flat Structures After Layoffs

[25:52 – 29:59]

• Layoffs often cut managers, increasing remaining managers’ span of control.
• Consequences:
  • Managers become “absentee” or “micromanagers”.
  • Increased return on politics—whoever looks best to an overburdened boss advances, regardless of actual performance.
  • Loss of top talent (often invisibly).
• Quote:
  “In theory, flattening an organization should reduce the return on politics, but in reality it actually increases the return on politics. Because managers can’t know enough in order to make good decisions.” – Kim [27:24]

7. Signs Your “Flat” Structure Isn’t Working

[28:40 – 31:31]

• Overdelegation or excessive centralization (“Everything bubbles to me”).
• Communication breakdown – managers unable to know what’s happening even three levels deep.
• At Apple, leaders were expected to know info at least three layers down to stay effective.

8. Actionable Remedies for Managers with Too Many Direct Reports

[32:46 – 39:50]

• Start Identifying & “Developing” Team Leads:
  • Appoint team leads among your direct reports (even if unofficially).
  • Rotate team lead roles (quarterly); spreads leadership skills, builds empathy, and eases managerial load.
  • “If you have 20 direct reports, find five people who you think are likely managers and ask them to lead… tell those teams that this sort of liaison role or team lead role is going to rotate once a quarter.” – Kim [37:52]
• Rotating Leadership:
  • Spreads insight, reduces “dumping” authority permanently on unprepared people.
  • “Once people… get a glimpse [of the manager’s job], they’re like, oh, thank you for doing you. Get a little more compassion.” – Kim [39:33]
• Be transparent about building to a better structure:
  • Managers can “train” new managers even before formally promoting them.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Span of Control:
  “You can't do [proper management] if you have more than five [direct reports]. You're setting them up not to do a good job.” – Kim [12:18]

• Hierarchy, But Not Command-and-Control:
  “The real question is not is it a flat organization or are there a lot of layers? But is the hierarchy a collaboration hierarchy or is it a dominance hierarchy or a command-and-control hierarchy?” – Kim [07:53]

• On Burnout:
  “If you do everything I recommend… and you have ten direct reports, then you're spending 20 hours just on management stuff. For most people, that will result in burnout... These are not your children and your spouse. You need to care, but not so much that you can't take care of yourself.” – Kim [09:47]

• Leadership Development:
  “You can give people a good taste of what it's like to be a manager without officially transitioning the reporting structure… That’s really interesting, actually.” – Jason [34:31]

• Managers With Too Many Reports:
  “You’ll have more absentee managers and more micromanagers… If they’re spending all their time managing 30 people, they can't know what they need to know in order to make decisions quickly.” – Kim [29:59]

Tips & Action Items (Radical Candor Checklist)

[39:52 – 41:17]

1. Strip Unilateral Management Authority:

   • Managers should lead through relationships, not power. Remove unilateral decision rights (e.g., hiring, firing) to foster collaboration.

2. Decisions in the Facts:

   • Push decisions to those with direct knowledge. Make sure there’s an explicit, inclusive decision-making process, especially during org changes.

3. Manage Communication Depth:

   • Leaders should know what’s happening at least three levels below them. Communication should flow freely—“great ideas come from everywhere.”

Recap & Key Takeaways

• Flat organizations are not inherently more efficient; effectiveness hinges on how hierarchy is structured and how decisions are made.
• Management quality suffers when a span of control grows too wide—five is the practical cap, not seven, fifteen, or more.
• Leadership is a relationship, not a power trip; effective organizations strip power from managers while ensuring decision authority is in the right hands.
• Layoffs and forced flattening typically create more politics and disengagement, not less.
• Rotate leadership roles and invest in transparency—these lay groundwork for true collaborative, innovative culture.

For more resources and to join the Radical Candor community, visit radicalcandor.com/community.

This summary was prepared to bring you the actionable wisdom and empathetic practicality of Radical Candor’s conversation. For full context, listen to the episode and check the show notes for related resources on decision-making and management at scale.