← Radical Candor: Communication at Work
Radical Candor: Communication at Work
Becoming a Not-So-Secretly Candid Leader with Chloé van Bergen 7 | 24
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- [00:01]
A
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- [01:02]
B
Hello everybody. Welcome to the Radical Canner Podcast. I'm Kim Scott.
- [01:07]
C
I'm Amy Sandler. And today we are excited to chat with someone that our audio engineer, Nick Karismi met out in the wild. This is Chloe Von Bergen, Vice president of operations at Secretly Group, which is a leading independently owned music company. Chloe has more than 15 years experience in the creative industry sector. Fluent in 5 languages, Chloe is here today to discuss her experiences introducing Radical Candor at what could be described as a complex, legacy driven company. You can flesh that out further for us, Chloe. So you've had to navigate unionization, address cultural barriers and Chloe's going to share what we believe is a really grounded look at leadership, communication and driving change at scale. So welcome Chloe.
- [02:02]
D
Thank you for having me.
- [02:03]
B
Thrilled that you're here. I would love to hear the story about how you and Nick, I think you were at a wedding, how you came to be talking about Radical Candor at a wedding.
- [02:15]
E
I guess I will jump in. Thank you guys for having me on.
- [02:18]
B
I don't normally join, so you're always here, just not.
- [02:22]
E
I'm always here. I'm lurking.
- [02:23]
C
You're the wind beneath our wings. And now the wind is speaking.
- [02:26]
E
I like that. I'm a background guy, always have been. Earlier this year, my brother and my sister went to London to go for my brother's, as they say there, stag do. So we went there for his bachelor party. This is going to be an awesome episode. I'm very excited about this episode because it seems to be very unradical candor and how this all got set up. But we went for my brother stag do and we're hitting up different pubs and there was a big group of us. Chloe has been friends with My brother for what? How long? How long have you known Danny?
- [02:57]
D
Like about 10 years.
- [02:59]
E
Okay, so we had not met before, so I don't know where we're at in the pub crawl, but we finally get to start talking. And she asked what I did, and I mentioned that I work in podcasts and I edit podcasts now. I've been editing podcasts for a long time, and you always see the millions of downloads and all this stuff, but I never ever seem to meet a person that actually listens to the shows that I work on. So we're in this super loud pub. My brother is dressed up as a beefeater. And I said, I work on a few different podcasts. One of them is called Radical Candor. It's like business communication. And she stopped me and said, are you serious? I said, yeah. I said, why? She said, I love that show. I've read the book. I've applied it at my job. That's incredible. I love that show. I love Kim.
- [03:52]
B
It's great.
- [03:53]
E
And I. I was blown away. And it is not my job on this show to book guests. But I'd had a few drinks and so I was like, look, I'm not promising anything, but I think you'd be a great guest for the show. The industry that you work in is not one that we've ever talked about, to my knowledge. But I said, you're younger. I think that your position at the job would be great. You're utilizing our formulas and methods. Let me talk to Brandy and let me see what happens. We had a great pre interview with Brandy and Amy, and now here we are. We also got to hang out at a wedding in Mexico, where my brother actually lives. So we're on different continents. We're now digital. We're all over the place. But it was such a fun way to get to know Chloe. And I'm very excited for today's show. It's going to be exciting and fun.
- [04:48]
B
So excited to hear your side of this story. Chloe, do you know this man?
- [04:55]
C
Chloe, have you ever laid eyes on this guy Nick?
- [04:58]
E
I'm sincerely hoping that this is actually how it happened.
- [05:00]
D
I can confirm. I can confirm the story. And it was funny. It was really funny to me because like this party, like this bachelor party, or stag do, as it's called in the uk, everyone was working. Everyone was in the music industry. His brother and the groom to be used to be a tour manager. Everyone at this party is either a musician or a manager or an agent or in music. And, you know, I Started talking to Nick, he's a brother. And I'm just like, hey, you know, so what do you do? And so giving a bit of like a, you know, let's have some conversation. I think he was just such a moment of connection. I think he just put this like small voice of, you know, like, you probably haven't heard about this and so on. And I just immediately went like, you mean Kim Scott? And he just went like what? Like what just happens? Like we're in a party here. Everyone works in music. We didn't expect to be talking about like, you know, company management, you know, etc. It was a really funny moment.
- [05:54]
B
Love it, Love it. And I'm also really excited to hear about sort of at the end of Radical Candor, I talk about how you can roll your own Radical Candor. You know, we can help train people. But what I really love is hearing about how people have read the book and then how they're applying it in the companies where they work. So I'd love to hear like what worked, but also some Radical candor. On Radical Candor. What didn't work so well for you, maybe?
- [06:24]
C
Chloe, just before we jump into your rolling your own, just a little background on. Because I assume we're talking at Secretly Group, is that correct? Yeah. So maybe for folks who aren't as familiar, because as Nick said, we haven't had a lot of music business folks on the podcast just kind of paint a picture, first of all of the company, but also maybe the industry and how that relates to your. Your rolling out of Radical Candor.
- [06:47]
D
Of course. So yeah, Secretly Group is an independent label group. It's about 30 years strong at this point. There's quite a few different companies under, you know, we sort of call it like the Secretly Universe. And it's about seven record labels, this publishing company, a distribution company, and there's also some capital interest and a few other music related ventures like a vinyl manufacturing plant and so on. The most prominent artists to rise from its ranks include Grammy winning Bon Iver, Phoebe Bridgers, Mitsky, Japanese Breakfast, the War on Drugs, and a long list of incredible talent. Personally, what I find particularly interesting about this company, and I'd like to spend a moment talking about it, is the genesis story of how it came to be. Because I think it's really telling also of the culture that the company has today. And it'll be no surprise that the music industry is a highly competitive space. And there's three companies that dominate 80% of the market share. You know, those being Universal, Warner, Sony, and that remaining 20% is thousands of independent labels globally. It's a highly, highly competitive space. It can be really brutal in its competition. About 30 years ago, these two brothers in Bloomington, Indiana, in college, they start this little label and they have no idea what they're doing. My boss is one of those brothers. I'm sure you'll have no problem me saying this. They were literally trying to find out how to burn a CD and sell it to a store. A couple of years later, they find this other highly intelligent college student who's doing the same thing. He sets up this other label called Jack Jaguar, and they get to talking, and I think they just realize that, hey, this is a really hard thing to do. Joining forces, they could achieve a common goal together instead of competing against each other. So that's how the original Secretly group forms. You know, they come together, try and find ways of, you know, paths of achieving a common goal. And it's so anathema, I think, to how most of the industry is geared. You know, it's again, high competition, individualism. And this is a company that, instead of driving towards that competition, decides to put the egos at the door and try and build together and form this group. And now about seven labels and so on. So they've kind of continued down that path. And I think it's still culturally a space of close collaboration rather than high competitive drive. And personally, that really resonates, and I think it's a really powerful message.
- [09:20]
B
And why is it called Secretly?
- [09:23]
D
So the original label, the one that the two brothers founded, is called Secretly Canadian. And if I'm not mistaken, it was because they grew up in close to the border with Canada. They were going through a list of artists and musicians who, as we know, there are many Canadian musicians that are considered to be American. You know, just. They're sort of like staples of American music, but they're actually Canadian. And I think they were just conceptually going through a list of names of artists that were American, but they could be Canadian. So I think it just started in that way. That's the lore. That's what I've been told.
- [09:56]
B
Love it. What's your role at the company?
- [09:59]
D
I'm the vice president of operations, ex North America.
- [10:03]
B
And so how did you hear about Radical Candor? And what did you decide? How did you decide to start rolling it out?
- [10:11]
D
So I owe that to my friend and colleague, our head of people, Kelsey Carbone. And what had happened actually, is I was on a bit of a drive or a bit of A mission of exploring vulnerability in both my personal and professional life. It was something I've struggled with in practice and conceptually, and I was, you know, trying to explore that a little bit. I was obviously reading Brene Brown Atlas of the Heart, you know, daring Greatly. But there were these other couple of management books that I was reading at the time. One was Unreasonable Hospitality by Wilbur Dara, and the other one was Scaling People by Clare Hughes Johnson.
- [10:48]
B
I were on the same team at Google together.
- [10:51]
D
That's awesome.
- [10:52]
B
Yes. I love her.
- [10:54]
D
So I think she has this phrase in the book that she says often. It's like, you know, say the thing you think you cannot say. Will was saying this thing about how feedback is investment. And I was discussing these concepts with Kelsey, our head of people. She was hearing me in this, and she was like, hey, I think there's this book that you would really enjoy. And she points me towards Radical Candor. And I read it, and I just immediately went there, and I was like, oh, my God. And I actually send her, like, this list of bullet points of, like, you know, these bits, like, really resonated with me. So it really changed my perspective, actually, on what feedback is. And I think it just, like, was one of these other forces that were kind of make me, like, understand this concept. Like, you know, I. If I open myself up, I think others will start to do the same as sort of, again, embracing this concept of vulnerability in the workplace.
- [11:40]
B
Love it.
- [11:41]
C
One of the things that I'm curious about, Chloe, is, like, I find fascinating maybe who we were before we read a book or before we were introduced to an idea. And then there's kind of this aha. And then it almost seems, like, so obvious, and how did I not know this thing? But even, you know, some I just want to highlight, like you said, it kind of changed your perspective on what feedback was. And so I think, especially for people who are listening to the podcast, whether if they're new to Radical Candor, they're just joining in or they're. They are familiar with it, it can be very helpful to actually get really clear on that mindset shift. Right. Because you're talking about being vulnerable and you're talking also about the shift in feedback. And I'm curious, like, what were the challenges? Maybe the pain points that kind of were inspiring you to make some changes? Where were you struggling at that moment?
- [12:29]
D
I think the bit that really opened it up was there's a certain permission, you know, in the book where you're sort of saying, like, hey, the urgency was you know, the second worst thing you can do is, like, be ruinously empathetic. Right? It's like, you're just. You're being unconstructive. You're not. You're not allowing them to grow. And, you know, that was sort of like the first bit that made me like, oh, I think I do that. You know, I think I'm sometimes not challenging directly. And the permission comes when it's like, well, the second best thing you can do is be an asshole. And it points to this bit of, you know, this permission of, like, you might be a brute, but you're actually kinder being a brute than avoiding the point altogether. And I think I came from a place where I think my factory setting is probably trying to be more diplomatic. I'm trying to avoid conflict. I'm trying to keep the peace and so on. So when I was maybe delivering feedback, I was probably leaning a bit too far into the, like, you know, hey, like, I don't, you know, the shit sandwich. I'm gonna make you feel good about this thing that I'm gonna say, but I'm probably not gonna really say the thing that I'm trying to say, because I'm trying to make you feel good.
- [13:42]
B
Yeah. And it's so. I struggle. It's probably why I wrote the book. My factory setting is the same, and it was really, for me, at least, as I was writing the book and thinking, like, it was hard to write, you know, and in fact, Amy and I have had some conversation about is it really second best? Would much rather, in the end, have someone be obnoxiously aggressive than ruinously empathetic with me, because then at least I know where I stand. It feels more like it's out in the open to me. Ruinous empathy feels very threatening if I'm aware it's happening.
- [14:20]
D
And.
- [14:20]
B
And it makes me feel actually less safe than obnoxious aggression. So it's interesting. Not everybody feels you can't do the right thing if you don't know what you're doing wrong.
- [14:31]
D
And so, yeah, and there's a real cultural aspect to that as well. And, you know, I think that's sort of like. Also part of this is, you know, working across a company that has, like, teams across different regions. You know, we've got teams in America, we've got teams in the UK and other places in Europe. And I think the langu, the common language, is actually. Sometimes it's actually not a common language. It's quite different. And I say this about our UK team a lot. It's like, you know, they love tiptoeing around the elephant, you know. Our head of hr, Kelsey, the HR department is actually based old in America. In a recent conversation that came up that one of the UK managers had a tough conversation with the employee and one of the HR members was on the call and sort of took a moment to pause a conversation and just kind of the HR person delivered. You know, it's like checking for understanding. It's like, hey, I just want to make sure that you understand that you're in hot water right now. You know, like this, this is what the deal is. And then at the end of the conversation that UK management like, oh, my God, that was so American. I could never do that. It's like, no, you can and you should, you know. And I do know the politeness is totally true. You know, that you bump into someone on the road and they will apologize instead of you. 100%. I've actually started doing that. It's just like the cultural understanding that you have. So I think it's a lot harder in the UK to get real honest feedback. I think I struggle actually with that, even with my own reports. And I try to create an environment where like, even I'm offering, you know, just kind of, again, the checking for understanding thing, I might say, like, hey, like, if pretty much every one on one will be like, what can I do to make your, you know, your work life better? Do I need to get out of the way? Do you need me to step in? I sort of offer options because I'm like, maybe if I say that, you know, they might be like, oh, yeah, that's something you could do. Because if I just ask it plainly to be like, oh, no, you know, everything's fine, everything's great. Then we have teams in the Netherlands. I love, I love my Dutch team.
- [16:32]
B
Radical, open hearted.
- [16:35]
D
What you're saying, Kim, is like, you just, like, knowing where you stand, you know, where you stand. And I have a Dutch grandma. I love her dearly. And I recall sort of like sitting at the dinner table and I just bought like a pair of, you know, reading glasses. There's like, you know, thick black rims. And she just, you know, quietly looks up at me. She's like, I don't like those glasses on you. And like, she means no harm. And she also follows that up with, you know, but of course, it's you who needs to like them. Which, like, in any other culture would probably be like the most passive aggressive thing you could say. But it's not mean. She's just saying her opinion. And in that, she's also sort of saying, but why would you care about my opinion? You know, in a way, it's just the real permission to just, like, you can have a. You leave the emotions aside. It's not an emotional conversation. You're just saying what you think, and it's. I think that place just leads to a lot more constructive.
- [17:32]
B
Yeah.
- [17:32]
D
And it's a lot safer. Yeah. When things are good, I trust they're good. I don't think they're just putting up a front.
- [17:37]
B
Yeah. And I mean, the other wonderful thing about what your grandmother did there was. She was saying, I'm telling you what I think, but what really matters is what you think. You know, it was humble and confident at the same time. I love that. I also had a. My grandmother was not Dutch Irish, I guess, a bit Irish American. But her sister, she had three sisters, and they called her Ask Alice. And what they meant by that was, if you really want to know if your butt looks big in those jeans, ask Alice, because she'll tell you. And she was definitely radically candid. Granny Alice. She taught me a lot.
- [18:18]
D
I love Granny Alice. We all need a Granny Alice in our lives.
- [18:21]
B
Yes.
- [18:23]
C
Chloe, I'm curious. When you talked, you know, we talked so much on this podcast about emotions, and you talked about your own work around building vulnerability, seeing that as a strength. Obviously, Brene Burn Brown has done so much amazing work with that. And, you know, Kim and I, like she said, will often talk about. We have very different kind of. I think we actually both have the same default setting. It just expresses itself differently in terms of our kind of emotional makeup. So if Kim's gonna prefer obnoxious aggression, I would actually probably still prefer ruinous empathy, even though I don't know what's happening. But. So I think we do have different ways into it because of almost like the risk reward profile there. But I'm so curious, like, what have you done that kind of built up your own capacity to have these kinds of conversations, like, to get more comfortable if it did get. If there were some emotions, or to get more comfortable, like asking for feedback from your team. What are some of the things. Because it seems like you've been on your own personal journey with it.
- [19:23]
D
I think when you're trying to learn a new board game, you have to start playing. That's how you're really going to get to the bottom of it. So I think with it, it was just finding the moments where I could muster up the courage and do it, say the thing. And I believe that the real blocker for most people, when they are really scared about that vulnerability, it's the fear of rejection. You don't want to hurt someone because you don't want to break a relationship. And you know what happens then, and whether that's a friendship or, you know, a relationship or with a colleague at work. And I think what really. There's something actually that Brene says in one of her books. And it's like, it's one thing to be rejected for who you are, but it's another thing entirely to be rejected for someone you're not. And I think the way that that translates a bit, it's like if you're speaking your truth and you know that doesn't land well, at least you said your piece, you were honest with yourself. Whereas if you don't say something, ignore a situation and it gets worse, then you're like double bummed because like a. The situation is bad. And also you silent yourself. You were not honest with yourself or with other people. Right. So, you know, that's a bigger jeopardy. So it's like, well, you might as well rather just start saying your piece and if it doesn't land well, you'll deal with it. You know, what's the worst that could happen? I think you kind of have to enter a bit that stoic line of thought as well, of just, you know, what's. What's the worst that could happen here? And it's like you start going down that spiral spirit, probably not that bad. You'll probably still be okay. So I think I started that way just having small conversations. And honestly, I think I started at work like in the work environment. And it was through seeing progress in that that I was able to translate some of that into my own personal life.
- [21:05]
B
That's. I think that's so interesting and so true. Like in. In many ways, the. The stakes for your relationships at work are lower than the stakes in your personal life. And therefore, it can be easier to experiment with different ways of being at work. It's easier. It's not always easy, but it's easier to get a new job than a new family, for example. I love that. So you were leading operations. What was the operational situation you came into when you took the job? And did you apply radical candor to some of the operations and systems that you saw at the company?
- [21:43]
D
So I joined the company at an interesting time. It was summer 2020, so we're full pandemic. It was interesting For a couple of reasons. On the one, and the company was already, you know, 2.0 or like 3.0 iteration even. It already had a few commercial successes. But I think they saw they were on the road to see a new class or a new string of commercial success. They want to reach scale. They bring me on board as one of their key hires internationally. And I'm tasked with building an international team, expanding into different territories and so on. I joined right over Covid, full pandemic. I don't meet my colleagues face to face for the best part of two years. And it's really hard to build meaningful relationships in that time. But what it did award me actually is like, because I maybe wasn't able to spend that much time face to face with people and creating connections. I had the other vantage point that I could really get deep into, you know, platforms, systems, workflows. I could really lift the hood and like, get a really good sense of like, how the machine was working. I also had the vantage point of having worked at other music companies so, you know, had a certain sense of like, how others do it. And I could compare and, you know, share notes. So I think from the start I could already tell, like, oh, here are some things that I think we need to, you know, bring up to speed. They were, you know, again, the label had been built like 30 years prior, often on platforms that, you know, as we know, they were diying it. They were just kind of figuring out how to do this stuff. And we had, you know, legacy software that we're still using and a lot of stuff had to be modernized. So I think I just spent my first six months to a year probably just quietly collecting a list, a garden variety innovations or improvements that we're going to have to at some point tackle that I figured, you know, could make the teams move faster and more efficiently. That was my core mission at the end of the day. But it was hard, I say, you know, that was. It was definitely hard. I had a few headwinds for sure. And, you know, we had employees who'd been there for, you know, 10 plus years. So call it the class of 10 years. There's a good number of them, which is awesome. You know, speaks obviously to staff retention, but also something that comes with it is like, if you're used to doing things a certain way for a long time, it's harder to accept change. And also, I'm the new guy, right? So, like, who are you? Like, why are you telling me I need to do things differently? So I think I really realized that I needed to build that trust over time before I could really start having conversations about how we're going to inflict change. And that was, I'd say, maybe wasn't in the practice of radical candor back then. I was probably trying to be, like, a little too diplomatic. I think when I was originally having these conversations, I was getting a lot of pushback. There was, you know, management who were either risk averse or averse to change or other managers that were used to being consulted on, you know, topics or in certain projects that, you know, were no longer, like, under, you know, their remit. And I was potentially overreaching. And there was like, a lot of tension in that sense. And I think even worse than pushback, some stuff was I was being met with indifference. And that's just so much worse. Right. Like, if there's tension, at least we can move forward. We can just. There's an opportunity for change. If there's indifference, it's just such a momentum killer. Right. It's like, it's just nothing.
- [25:05]
B
Yeah. With a wall of silence.
- [25:07]
D
Right. On reflection, I probably should have invited more disagreement, but I should have, like.
- [25:12]
B
You know, pushed feedback.
- [25:14]
D
Exactly. And I think I was still in a way of just like, maybe trying to be very diplomatic, minimizing the conflict. And yeah, in reflection, I think I could have gotten there a lot faster by just, you know, again, like, soliciting feedback and just being like, okay, you know, let's. Let's have it.
- [25:28]
B
And when did. Did you. Was there a point where things changed for you?
- [25:33]
D
Yes, there was a moment where I felt like there was more urgency, and that was when we were on a bit of a hiring spree. We're adding headcount. I think we're adding headcount to teams that I didn't feel were right sized or not quite the right fabric and so on. And I think it was during that time that I felt like, okay, we actually need to make changes now. The jeopardy is just so much higher if we just kick the can down the road.
- [25:59]
B
Yeah. So you started figuring out who was going to get promoted and who wasn't going to get promoted and who maybe needed to be managed out. Is that what.
- [26:09]
D
Yes, it's really tough.
- [26:11]
B
Yeah.
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C
What was your timing on that with when you were reading Radical Candor? The idea of sort of rock star mode versus superstar mode, was that at the same time or was that kind of after the fact that that was helpful for you?
- [26:23]
D
I'd say we're still on a forward motion. We're not adding as much headcount, but it's still a company that keeps morphing and finding its new shape. So I'd say it's still helpful. And actually, the rockstar versus Superstar, it was really meaningful to me for two reasons. One, because I would have personally categorized myself, for the most part my career in the superstar section. Just like I thought that was the ideal. You're highly motivated and driven and chasing the next challenge. And I think I was treating a lot of my reports in that way of just like, you know, I want to find the next step for you. Not maybe understanding that there were just some people who were just like happy where they were. You know, I think there's sometimes this concept of like up or out, right? I think like many industries embrace that and I think in a way it just became ingrained of like, that's the ideal, you know, keep growing or get out. And it's like, oh no, there's real value to having, you know, these people who are just like, awesome at the job, safe pair of hands, you know, just steady, steady ship. So I think that was one reason why that really resonated. Kind of like helped me rewire like, oh, there's this other ideal that's also very, very valuable. Historically, there was definitely a bit of a notion that if you wanted to grow or be promoted, you had to become a manager. You know, that's the way that you would grow. And as a result, we probably promoted managers who like, didn't maybe have actually the motivation to become like, you know, people managers. They were just great individual contributors. And as a result, the whole organization suffers, right? The people they're managing, you know, the manager themselves. And I think we're now slowly embracing or trying to find this mode of, you know, how can we career path without having to create sort of like a path inside this sort of like people management, you know, and it's hard to do. And I think actually, I don't know, Kim, if you have any tips or ideas around that, because I think secretly isn't a bit of an awkward size. It's about 250 employees. It's not your small mom and pop shop. People who join expect to have some form of career progression. And I think for the most part we do have a good track record of promoting internally and finding next steps, but they're not as readily available as bigger conglomerates who have very clear laid out career paths. And I think the casualty of that sometimes has been having employees who are really good and you want to find the next step, but you just don't have it.
- [28:46]
E
Yeah.
- [28:47]
D
I wonder if you have, like, any tips or ideas around how to manage those conversations and how to manage that dynamic.
- [28:54]
B
Sure. I mean, I think you sort of just hit the nail on the head. Like, at some point, you've got to be open with people. Like, you want a promotion and we don't have a role. And just being honest with people about that, saying, we love you. We love. Here's what I can do to help you get it somewhere else. Devastating, because you don't want to lose these people who are awesome, but you also don't want to be like Hotel California. You know, you can check out, but you can check in, but you can never check out. You know, I think those open, honest conversations, and sometimes when you have that conversation with a person, they'll be so appreciative and they'll realize, oh, actually, I'm all right. You know, I think also understanding when a person is in superstar mode, understanding what they really. Why they're in superstar, are they interested in learning and growing, you know, or. Because you can get a promotion without becoming a manager. As you say, taking. If you're in sales, you're taking on bigger customers or a bigger book of business. If you're in operations, you're learning some new skills. So you can definitely get a promotion without managing people. And you can also, just because you're a manager doesn't mean you're in superstar. Like, you can be a manager at the same level for many, many years. So I think that. I think you also picked up on an important nuance there as well, that if someone. The good news about a company for people who are in rockstar mode that isn't so big is that they're often happier to stay. So maybe if it's not a big company, you need a greater percentage of people who are in rockstar mode. Whereas if you're in a company that's growing really fast or that's really big, you might need more people in superstar mode. And so just sort of being explicit with yourself about where folks are, I think can be helpful. Does that make sense?
- [30:47]
D
Yeah, it does.
- [30:48]
B
Great. I think you mentioned briefly unionization. I'd love to hear how that played out and if radical canor played a role in those conversations.
- [30:58]
D
Yeah, I mean that the timing of it is very important to set the scene. That also happened over Covid. It was a really difficult moment. The way that management found out as well. We were sent the letter at the same time that A news piece went out in Rolling Stone and it was, you know, sort of like a real. It felt quite emotional. We're reading reports of staff saying that they didn't feel heard. There were mentions of performative action. And. And I think this scene is so important because this happens over Covid where staff are worried about their personal health, about their family's health, they're worried about their employment, mourning all the things and activities that would bring them joy. It's a joyless time. Yeah. And that sort of space leads towards a feedback loop of negativity as well. There's an important factor that transpires in a lot of the statements that we're making, which is the cultural sector. And cultural companies can trade on this idea of cool. You're in a cool industry and wages can be lower than other industry standards. The trade off sometimes is like you get these cool perks and that can be a morale boost at a certain point in your career. It can be tickets to shows, spending time with artists, attending award ceremonies. That's what some of those perks could look like. And when a company like secretly none of that was available over Covid, so suddenly none of those perks are available. You're just down to the basics of what is your day to day workload and how much are you being paid. And I think it really starts to highlight a lot of those stressing factors. I'd say as a manager, the bits that really stung were just hearing employees saying that they didn't feel heard. Obviously also some bits around being performative and so on. During that time, we were very focused on keeping the label afloat, keeping company going. We were really committed to no layoffs, which we achieved. And perhaps as a result, we took the ball off of some other areas of the business. And that's fair. Again, I don't want to discount any of the claims, but I do think that those settings are just kind of important to keep in mind. I think as management, it definitely was a moment of soul searching. It was actually really moving that unanimously and immediately we recognized the union and we really invited to just sit at the table and come to an agreement. And I'd say it took maybe a year of negotiation to find that agreement. And it was rough and thorny at times for shorts, difficult conversations around, you know, compensation and benefits and so on. But I truly believe that we're a stronger company for it. And yeah, it ended up in like a really good place, actually.
- [33:27]
B
That's amazing. And did the union sort of help the leadership solicit feedback. I mean, from the employees. Did the union help give a louder voice to employees to give feedback to leadership?
- [33:40]
D
I would like to think so. I mean, I'd say at secretly we're already committed to, you know, feedback. I mean, managers are encouraged and expected to have weekly one on ones with their reports. We have a very regular structure of reviews, you know, twice annually. So like a real space to just make sure that you're bringing up any topics. There was one comment in that article that really stuck with me though. An employee anonymously reported that over Covid they were choosing to work overtime, AKA inflicting pain on themselves because they were concerned that if they brought up that they were working overtime with their manager, they would just be, you know, subject to like really petty micromanagement. What was really interesting to me about that that dynamic is I don't discount that maybe that employee manager relationship was really difficult, but it really resounded that the employee doesn't feel like they have an avenue to tell their manager, hey, you're getting in my way. You know, like you're really discounting my experience here. This is not a prioritization problem. I a workload problem and I need help. So I think that really led towards us, you know, making sure that we were all, you know, as management aligned, that this was a, you know, safe space and that people had to, you know, feel comfortable going to management and you know, it has to be like a two way feedback. And in our reviews as well, we always ask for, you know, like, what's something that, you know, your manager could do better?
- [35:07]
B
Yeah, I think that's really important. I mean, it's so important for employees to be able to prioritize their own work. Right. At a certain level that that needs to come from the employee. That's why I believe in bottoms up goal setting. The employee needs to say, here's what, but the manager needs to be open to saying, okay, you're not going to do that and you are going to do that. That seems like the right prioritization, but it's got to come from the employee and that can feel. It's a hard message to deliver sometimes I think.
- [35:37]
D
Absolutely.
- [35:39]
B
But it sounds like you all got that right.
- [35:41]
D
It's an ongoing thing. I'd like to think that we're better than we were and I'd like to think that we can still be better.
- [35:46]
B
Yeah.
- [35:51]
F
You know, one of the things I love most about Masterclass is how easily it integrates into my life. I didn't know until recently that masterclass had an audio only mode and that has allowed me to take Masterclass with me when I go for my walks. I like to walk because right now it feels pretty essential to get out into nature at least once a day so as to avoid going mad. So if you are thinking about how you could make your life better, I would strongly consider adding Masterclass into your daily routine. You can unlock the investing fundamentals straight from Wall street titans. Learn how to leverage AI to boost your productivity and build leadership skills with current and former CEOs like Bob Iger, Indra Nui and Howard Schultz. Most importantly, it is not yet another political hot take to listen to while you're trying to go out and calm your mind. Right now our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership@masterclass.com radical that's 15% off@masterclass.com radical one more time. Masterclass.com radical radical.
- [37:01]
C
So you're about to make a trade based on a friend's text, but which you do you listen to is it we could buy a.
- [37:08]
D
House in Tulum, get optioning those options.
- [37:15]
C
We could lose everything. Or let's do a little research, get your head in the trade and make the investment decision that's right for you. Learn more@finra.org TradeSmart As I reflect on this conversation and just hearing from when you joined, you know, through Covid and all of these sort of shifts in the marketplace in terms of moving into unionization and just your own kind of individual leadership journey along with the company's desire to create more psychological safety, to have more of these feedback conversations for managers to be soliciting feedback like you're modeling. I'm wondering for folks listening who whether they're in your industry or not, but maybe they're in a creative industry like you are. But also with AI, that next shift that is probably on people's minds, you've dealt with COVID you know, the unionization as well as really the communication challenge. Like what how are you thinking about the potential challenges and opportunities for your organization? Especially create creative organization based on maybe some of the lessons from the past few years.
- [38:29]
D
I think it's just as also as an independent like we've always had to be open to change, you know, whether it's like the streaming revolution or you know, it's Covid, it can be AI and so on. It's just kind of being very open to that change and just to you know, pivoting as like commercial needs, you know, come up and I'd like to think that we can be pretty nimble on that and just, you know, being open, like, also when we don't know the answer, I think that's sort of like the real, you know, powerful bit about this is like, I might not know the best way forward, but I can promise you that we're figuring, working together. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [39:05]
B
Do you think that creative industries are more focused on being kind or less focused? Like, in Hollywood, I would describe it as not one of the few places I've ever gone where people are like, oh, yeah, we're obnoxiously aggressive.
- [39:18]
C
And so much of your identity is attached to, like, I'm a creative and I can do what, you know, I'm just like, let the genius express the genius. What's been your experience with that?
- [39:27]
D
I'd say there's definitely, like, in the independent label sector, I'd say there's definitely this drive towards, like, you know, we're kind cultures. But I think there's a really important distinction that sometimes kind is misunderstood as nice. And there's a real nuance there. It's a real difference. And actually, you know, learning, and this has been part of the radical candor journey. It's like learning that kind is actually often saying or doing the hard thing. Nice is actually sometimes being unkind. And I think, you know, we've definitely had that in our organization as well. You were asking me earlier about, you know, these restructures and so on, and I think we have had instances of staff who were either, you know, coasting or, you know, the company had shifted, needed something else from them, and we were trying to find them different chances, different positions, bending the or to make sure that they fit crafting, bespoke positions and all, just because we felt like the kind thing was actually having them have a job that seemed to be like the real drive along with radical candor. Another concept that really stuck with me at the time, there's this. This book by Will Page. He's the ex chief economist at Spotify, and he wrote this book called Pivot. And it's about when companies are faced by disruption, you know, when they need to shift their commercial strategy. And there's this one really succinct concept in there, which is like, you know, you need to know when the builders need to move out and the farmers need to move in. And this idea that builders are the ideas people, farmers are the people who can scale the ideas. And at a startup, a startup company, you probably need more builders. And then eventually you would need more farmers and builders hit that spot of like, we're needing to achieve scale, we need our staff. You know, the fabric needs to be different and it's okay to bring people along who've been there for a long time, but we need them to change. And those conversations were really tough. You know, we needed these people to change their mindset and I think we definitely allowed that situation to just coast for too long because again, the driving factor was like, we want to be kind, we want to reward their loyalty. They've been here for a long time. But actually, you know, we shifted to a place where we needed more process driven, agile energy in the room and that was not what they were bringing to the roles. And instead, actually I think it was worse for them as well because they ended up in these roles that didn't quite make sense, didn't make sense to themselves. And I think over the course of the radical counter journey was actually just facing it and just being like, hey, this is actually not working out and it's really hard. But that was actually the kind thing. So yes, I do think that kind and nice is quite something that is traded in this sector, but it doesn't actually always mean the same thing.
- [42:10]
B
Very well said. I could talk. I wonder if you could share with our listeners, like what's one very practical tactical radical candor practice that that has helped you be a better leader and that other people could maybe try this week.
- [42:28]
D
I honestly think it's the permission to say the thing, take away the emotion, just say the thing. Like by not saying it, you're actually doing yourself and the other person a disservice. I think this idea of really embracing and like it's okay for being obnoxious for a bit, like, don't stay there, ideally try and grow out of that region. But the permission of on your way to defining radical candor, to really caring personally and obviously that's such an important part of this, right? It's like you really have to build trust before you can deliver that. Otherwise, you know, that person isn't even actually going to care about your feedback. But I think it's the permission of just start now, just say the thing. It might not land. You'll recover, I promise. And yeah, it's very human to worry about it, but it's actually, you know, imagine how much greater it could be.
- [43:13]
B
I love it. My great grandmother, Granny Alice's mother, needle pointed a pillow for each of her daughters and it said, say something, you can always take it back. And I think that was maybe part of what gave Granny Alice, the permission. Because you're right. I mean, somehow if your instinct is for ruinous empathy, you almost have to overcorrect in order to land on the right.
- [43:37]
C
Just actually get something out of your mouth. You think it's obnoxious aggression, but replace.
- [43:41]
B
Probably radical danger or ruinous empathy. Still not clear enough.
- [43:45]
C
Yeah. Thanks so much for joining us, Nick. Do you have any final words before we do a wrap on where from pub to podcast.
- [43:54]
E
It was a long time coming. This was as good as I knew it was going to be. Is just such a fun conversation to listen to and I had a great time. I'm so glad that Chloe got to be on the show and that we met in this crazy fun way and that here we are spreading the good word of Radical Candor.
- [44:13]
D
Right?
- [44:14]
C
We're all secretly candid. Not so secret.
- [44:18]
E
It's pretty good.
- [44:19]
B
I love that that's our title. Secretly Candid.
- [44:22]
C
Secretly candid.
- [44:23]
B
Well, Fred, secretly.
- [44:25]
C
Yeah, love it. Head on over to radicalcander.com podcast to see the show notes. Chloe, thanks for mentioning some of the other books that really landed with you. We'll put those out in the show notes. You can also watch this episode as a video on YouTube and Spotify. Praise in public, criticize in private. So if you like what you hear, please do rate and review us wherever you're listening or watching. If you've got feedback, please email podcastadicalcandor.com we read everyone. We really do appreciate it. Finally, if you want to get our newsletter straight in your inbox, go to radicalcandor.com news. Go ahead and sign up. Thank you again, Chloe. It really was such a pleasure having you.
- [45:10]
D
Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for facilitating this, Nick and you know, lovely to meet you Kim and seeing you again. Amy and Brandy. Really appreciate everyone. Thank you so much.
- [45:20]
B
Love the conversation. Thanks everyone.
- [45:22]
C
Thank you. The Radical Candor podcast is based on the book Radical Candor Be a Kick Ass Boss Without Losing youg Humanity by Kim Scott. Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal with script editing by me, Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoph and is hosted by me, still Amy Sandler. Nick Karisimi is our audio engineer. The Radical Caner podcast theme music was composed by Cliff Goldmacher. Follow us on LinkedIn. Radical can the company and visit us@radicalcandor.com.
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G
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D
Is that guy with the binoculars watching us?
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G
Cut the camera. They see us.
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E
Only pay for what you need@liberty mutual.com.
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D
Savings ferry unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts.
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G
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C
Experian.