Daniel Coyle - Creating Teams that Flourish S8 | E12

Summary

Radical Candor: Communication at Work

Episode: Daniel Coyle – Creating Teams that Flourish (S8 | E12, May 6, 2026)

Guests: Daniel Coyle (author of The Culture Code, Flourishing)
Host: Kim Scott (with Jason Rosoff & Amy Sandler, not present in this episode)

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, Kim Scott dives deep with Daniel Coyle about his latest book "Flourishing" and the art of building teams—and communities—that thrive. The conversation centers around rethinking leadership, the critical importance of human connection, and fostering environments where people can unlock their best selves. Through vivid stories and research insights, Coyle challenges traditional top-down leadership models and highlights the powerful role of relationships, curiosity, agency, and deliberate system design in cultivating flourishing organizations.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Redefining Leadership for Flourishing Teams

• Rejecting Command-and-Control:
  Kim Scott (01:53): “It seems like your book, in many ways, is an explanation of why neither command and control or charismatic leadership work and... Why founder mode is just a disaster.”
• Nurture over Force:
  Daniel Coyle (03:15): “When you go to actually... want to create... an organization or a community... It’s not a machine.”
  Leaders should treat organizations as living systems rather than machines, “nurturing their way” toward growth instead of forcing outcomes.

2. The Power of Human Connection

• Performance Flows from Relationships
  Daniel Coyle (04:48): “Maybe we've had the map upside down... maybe it's the relationships that create the productivity and the progress that we're looking [for].”
• Connectiveness Comes First
  Daniel Coyle (05:07): “When you look at living systems... they start with connection, they start with roots.”

3. Defining “Flourishing”

• Mutual Growth:
  Kim Scott (07:43): “You quote Robin Wall Kimmerer: All flourishing is mutual. And that, that is just the damn truth.”
  Daniel Coyle (08:57): “Flourishing being joyful, meaningful growth, shared.”
• No Such Thing as the Rugged Individual:
  Daniel Coyle (08:41): “Every word of ‘I did it’ is a lie… You didn’t actually do it alone.”

4. The Chilean Miners: A Story of Mutual Survival

(09:30 – 14:24)

• Letting Go of Hierarchy:
  Daniel Coyle (11:54): “The leader walked to the center... took off his white helmet, says, ‘There are no bosses and no employees here. There are none, period. Boom.’”
• Surviving through Openness & Deep Questions:
  Instead of looking for answers, the miners found hope and connection by asking big questions together, shifting from control to mutual support.

5. Relationships Hinge on Quality Conversations & Questions

• Conversation as Core Work:
  Kim Scott (15:44): “It feels when you're having a conversation, like you're not doing anything. You're actually doing the most important thing, I believe.”
• Curiosity Is Essential:
  Daniel Coyle (15:10): “Curiosity isn't some nice little extra. It's like, absolutely the governing software of these moments.”

6. Creating Space & Embracing Pauses

• Space Enables Openness:
  Daniel Coyle (17:12): “Creating space always smelled a little hippie-ish... But... that's an accurate and analytical beautiful description of what happens in healthy, flourishing cultures.”
• Making Time for Relationships:
  Kim Scott (18:10): “You have to clear some space in your calendar… so I have time to do what I should be doing.”

7. Lessons from Disaster: Flourishing in Crisis

• Communities Rise in Adversity:
  Kim Scott and Daniel discuss Rebecca Solnit’s book "Paradise Built in Hell" (18:26–19:58), about how disasters can catalyze deep connection and meaning within communities.

8. The Gottman Method & Productive Relationships

• Responding to Bids for Attention:
  Daniel Coyle (22:25): “Healthy relationships... answer the [partner's] bid positively 82% of the time. Unhealthy... only 33% of the time.”
• Avoiding the ‘Four Horsemen’:
  • Stonewalling
  • Criticism (as a personalized attack, not productive feedback)
  • Contempt
  • [Noted but not all named in this excerpt]
• Reframing Criticism as Careful Challenge:
  Kim Scott (23:45): “Respectful, caring, challenging is important for all of this. You know, it's important for any relationship.”

9. Designing Systems for Agency, Flow, and Ownership

• Lessons from Traffic Engineering:
  Daniel Coyle (25:56): “The best solution... is to create a context where people can organize themselves. People want to organize themselves.”
• Three Elements for Flourishing:
  1. Autonomy & Agency
  2. Clear Horizon / Vision
  3. Ownership & Connection
     Daniel Coyle (28:31): “We need to give people autonomy and agency… a really clear horizon… and a sense that they own what they're doing.”

10. Building Living Systems (Not Bureaucracy)

• Leader as Designer, Not Commander:
  Daniel Coyle (32:00): “To build living systems, not... machine-like systems. And leader as designer is really an interesting kind of metaphor... there’s a humility to being a designer.”

11. Case Studies in Flourishing

• Jigsaw Classroom (Austin School District):
  Flexible group-based learning increased cooperation and performance, demonstrating the power of agency and mutual responsibility (33:48 – 36:55).
• Kibera School for Girls:
  Daniel Coyle (39:13): “Odede's response was not to fight... it was to take that person to the hospital and pay for their medical care and also explain that school is for their kids too.”
  Exemplifies reverent, listening-centered leadership.

12. Emphasizing Reverence in Leadership

• Leadership as Reverence:
  Kim Scott (37:30): “It's a leadership that's actually reverent to each of the people...” Daniel Coyle (37:50): “That really does capture it... there's something there that's mysterious and cool and worth attending to.”

13. Lessons from the Cleveland Guardians

• From Moneyball to Montessori Ball:
  Daniel Coyle (43:41): “We have to be less Moneyball, more Montessori Ball... We’ve gotta make great players.”
• Coaching Through Ownership and Reflection:
  Daniel Coyle (45:00): “What if we put them in small groups and ask... Who is the best coach you ever had? And what did they do?... We turned them into the model of excellence that we use today for coaching.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Power & Openness:
  Daniel Coyle (11:54): “There are no bosses and no employees here. There are none, period. Boom.”
• On Relationships as the Foundation:
  Daniel Coyle (05:34): “They create conditions where [growth] can happen, which is really different than forcing it.”
• On the Paradox of Efficiency:
  Daniel Coyle (16:26): “It feels inefficient. It feels like it's a waste of time. And yet... it is not a waste of time.”
• On Curiosity:
  Daniel Coyle (15:10): “Curiosity isn't some nice little extra. It's... the governing software of these moments.”
• On Self-Organization:
  Daniel Coyle (25:56): “The best solution... is to create a context where people can organize themselves.”
• On Leadership’s Evolution:
  Daniel Coyle (33:36): “I realized I had to change from being like the person with the answers to becoming like the person with the good questions.”
• On Coaching:
  Daniel Coyle (45:52): “Groups of people are not machines. They're like rivers.”

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Important Timestamps

• 01:53 – 03:15: Kim Scott and Daniel Coyle challenge traditional command-and-control leadership.
• 04:44 – 05:07: Discussion on connection as the root of flourishing teams.
• 09:30 – 14:24: Chilean Miners’ story and what it teaches about letting go of hierarchy and embracing mutuality.
• 15:44 – 16:26: The vital importance (and perceived inefficiency) of making space for conversation.
• 18:26 – 19:58: Communities flourishing in adversity (Rebecca Solnit’s work).
• 21:05 – 24:42: The Gottman Method, responding to bids for attention, and reframing criticism.
• 25:56 – 29:31: Traffic story, autonomy, vision, and ownership.
• 33:48 – 36:55: Jigsaw classroom and effects of distributed agency in education.
• 39:13 – 40:00: Kibera School for Girls—a case of humanistic, reverential leadership.
• 43:08 – 46:03: Cleveland Guardians: Shifting from directive to developmental coaching.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a lively, insightful discussion challenging top-down authority in favor of leadership rooted in curiosity, shared ownership, and deep human connection. Coyle and Scott remind listeners that flourishing teams—and lives—start with mutual support, good questions, space for real conversation, and systems that invite self-organization rather than dictate from above.

Find out more:

• Daniel Coyle: danielcoyle.com
• Radical Candor: radicalcandor.com

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“Curiosity isn’t some nice little extra. It’s the governing software of these moments.” – Daniel Coyle (15:10)

Transcript

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[Kim Scott]

Welcome to the Radical Sabbatical Podcast. I'm Kim Scott, and while the rest of the Radical Team, Radical Caner team is on on sabbatical, I am using my sabbatical to read great books and talk to the authors. And so I'm thrilled to say that with us today is Daniel Coyle, who is known probably to all of you as the author of the Culture Code and who has written a wonderful book that really meant a lot to me, Flourishing. Not that the Culture Code didn't mean a lot. It did. But I especially love your new book. So welcome, Daniel.

[Daniel Coyle]

Thanks, Kim. It's so fun to be with you. I gotta say, I'm a huge fan of your work and what you do and how you do it.

[Kim Scott]

Huge fan of your work. And so I feel very lucky to be spending some time with you today.

[Daniel Coyle]

Thank you. Me too.

[Kim Scott]

One of the things that is so interesting about your book, for me at least, is that it totally redefines the role that leaders play in creating teams that flourish or societies actually that flourish. It seems like your book, in many ways, is an explanation of why neither command and control or charismatic leadership work and. And why founder mode is just a disaster. I don't know if you agree with that, but I'm gonna, you know, strong, strong opinion, strongly help, but always open to disagreement.

[Daniel Coyle]

Oh, I like that.

[Kim Scott]

And. And autocratic leadership is just a flourishing killer in, in my book, at least. And it seems to me in yours.

[Daniel Coyle]

Yeah, no, I would agree with that. There's. There's a.

[Kim Scott]

It.

[Daniel Coyle]

It's good for simple stuff. Right. If you want to go From A to B. It's kind of good to have a machine. I think the main distinction we're talking about is between like algorithm, machine world and living systems. Live things that are alive and, and with things that are dead. Like, like your car is not alive. Right. To have it work in a certain way and be the same every single time and deliver the results we want to deliver. Like that's awesome. That's great. But when you go to actually I want to create a life or an organization or a community or a culture

[Kim Scott]

or if I want.

[Daniel Coyle]

It's not a machine.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. And if I want to build a car, I need people to build a car I'd like. I just wrote a post recently about how we're treating AI the way that I think Detroit tried to treat workers at some point and lost to, lost out to the Japanese auto manufacturers who were treating workers like assets that should be invested in, not like cost centers to be reduced.

[Daniel Coyle]

Right. This distinction between living systems and non living systems is really, really powerful when you understand that we're not going to build it, we're going to grow it. Which your stance toward your group. You know, I know you have some new leaders listening to this and some CEOs listening to this, but this idea that what is your stance toward the people around you? Are you approaching them like objects which, so that'll, that'll create a whole type, a whole type of attention, a whole type of action or are you approaching this living things that you're trying to actually build, build a relationship with?

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Daniel Coyle]

And so that's that, that's the key, I think that that makes these places stand out in, in our world where so much has gone over to the algorithm and so much has become frictionless. These like friction full human interactions that they're creating. It. It brings us come alive. I mean it creates that sense of aliveness that you know we've been, we've been kind of looking at the map like great performance will lead to fulfillment in relationships. You know, great performance and then I'll. Then I'll have fulfillment in relationships. And it's like maybe we've had the map upside down.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. Maybe it's the relationships that create the.

[Daniel Coyle]

That's right.

[Kim Scott]

The productivity and the, and the progress that we're looking.

[Daniel Coyle]

It's true. I mean that's the pattern I saw in all the places that I visited. They were that connectiveness first. And if you, you can. Which sounds woo woo and kumbaya when you first hear about it. Like it sounds soft when you first hear about this stuff.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Daniel Coyle]

And yet when you look at living systems, when you at how ecology works, when you look at how a tree grows, when you look at how anything alive, they start with connection, they start with roots, they start with connection, and they grow from there. And they don't command and control and authoritarian their way toward that growth.

[Kim Scott]

They.

[Daniel Coyle]

They nurture their way toward it. They create conditions where it can happen, which is really different than forcing it.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah, yeah.

[Daniel Coyle]

You.

[Kim Scott]

You can't. One of my. One of my. One of my firmest beliefs is, like, as a manager, you're at the center of a wheel, and then there's your relationships, and then there's your responsibility. And your culture comes from how you treat yourself, how you build relationships, and therefore how you conduct your responsibilities. And if you think that you can. You know, I think a leader's main responsibilities are to solicit and give feedback or guidance, as I prefer to call it, to build a great team and. And to get shit done. You know, basically those three things. And if you think you can do those things without good relationships, I think you're just kidding yourself.

[Daniel Coyle]

That's right.

[Kim Scott]

You know, command and control work really well in a baboon troop, but not so well in a group of. And even it's. It's not clear that. That it serves the baboon so well.

[Daniel Coyle]

No, I. Right, right. These are complex problems you're trying to solve, and I love that. Spotlight the relationships. And the thing that I guess I didn't understand clearly about relationships before I started this, working on this project was like, relationships happen in moments.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Daniel Coyle]

They don't happen in the form of currency of information exchange or the currency of status establishment. The currency is for these moments of openness, these moments of noticing, these moments of seeing and being seen. All those soft moments.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Daniel Coyle]

Moments of care, if you want to call it that.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Daniel Coyle]

And work out, really. Moments of challenge. Yes. When you. When you actually are kind of having that. And I kept seeing that in all these. In all these places I visited. It's like, they were. Most places are really good at getting stuff done, but these places were good at getting stuff done, but they were also good at the second piece of that, which is like pausing.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Daniel Coyle]

Like, they were like pausing geniuses. Like, we're gonna pause it. What are we doing again? Why does this matter? Why does this matter to you, Kim? Why does this matter to me? What are. Where are we headed? We're gonna have these pauses that are almost like. I don't know, they're like the batteries get recharged, you, you get grounded. You, you, you, you connect in a deep way. And that, that connection is actually just a form of energy that lets you do the work.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. And you have such good stories about the value of those pauses. I want to get to the, the miners in Chile in a second, but first let's talk about your definition of flourishing, which I thought was just really beautiful. You, you quote Robin Wall Kimmer. All flourishing is mutual. And that, that is just the damn truth.

[Daniel Coyle]

That's isn't it? It's like we're social beings, right? We're social beings. And yet that truth still caught me by surprise. You know, I spent my life studying performance and we all fall for this persistent illusion that greatness and performance is like individual. Right. There's rugged individual. And I did it. And yet when you actually scratch the surface of every great performer, you end up always uncovering a community that helped them. Right. You scratch that and that. I did it. Somebody put it this way, they every. And you can say, I did it. And every word of that is a lie.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Daniel Coyle]

It wasn't you. You didn't actually do it. And whatever you thought you did wasn't just you.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah, it wasn't it either.

[Daniel Coyle]

It wasn't it.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Daniel Coyle]

So it's like this, this definition of flourishing all being mutual and really flourishing being joyful, meaningful growth, shared.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Daniel Coyle]

That would be the definition, the scientific definition that I began the book with. Joyful, meaningful growth shared. And this, what it took me to was really these, these places that were, they get their communities, you know, real communities that are, that are serving each other and serving a higher goal at the same time. And when we all, when we reflect on our life, it's not something that's that distant. It's something we've all experienced at some point. You know, it's not like some magical castle in the sky. Like when you ask people have you ever felt joyful, meaningful growth and share that with others. There's nobody that says I, I got.

[Kim Scott]

Never happened to.

[Daniel Coyle]

Never happened to me. Right. It happened. We're built for it. Like. And that was the other big kind of insight and sort of ground truth of this book was these weren't stories of like huge transformations. There were stories of more unlockings, there were stories of more like a little bit more of awakening that, you know, we are pre wired for community. We evolved in community. All of our ancestors survived and got us here because they were good at this stuff. Like they were good at the community piece. There Weren't rugged individuals that, like, rugged their way across a million years of indifferent nature and therefore are our grandpa like, no grandpa. Grandpa made it because they were good at community. And our world has, like, kind of forgotten that a little bit. Like, I think we drifted away from these. These core experiences that awaken it.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. So one of my. You start with this really powerful story about the miners in Chile. So tell that story for folks because it's. It is so. I mean. And then people should go read it in the book, I want to say. But. But tell. Tell that story because it is so eye opening.

[Daniel Coyle]

We know the. Yeah. 2010. We mostly know the outlines of the story. Right there were there. If you had to pick somebody to be in the history of the world, you probably wouldn't pick being one of these 33 guys, rough necks down 2,000ft below the surface, 10 million tons of rock on top of them, very little hope of rescue. We. We all know how it ended. They all got out and they all were sort of a brotherhood. But the interesting part happened in the first 16 days where they didn't realize. They. They didn't know they could be rescued. They thought it was over. You know, they naturally thought they were over. They were down there. And the question was, how did they. How did they survive that time? How did they come together and form this kind of brotherhood that when they finally made contact with him with a phone line, they. They sang a song, actually, and they asked about a truck driver who had been in the tunnel with him. They asked about someone else. Did they survive? And your first. The. That came out of that. The first stories, narratives that came out were that they were led by these powerful, charismatic leaders that told everybody what to do. Turned out, when you look deeper, when there were several studies done, that wasn't the case. What happened was they circled up, they sort of surrendered to each other. The. The leader walked.

[Kim Scott]

The leader started by saying, I'm no longer. He took off his hat, right? Like, that's such a incredible moment.

[Daniel Coyle]

And this was a thing that nobody expected this guy to do. His name was Luis. He was the stern foreman, and he's in charge. Like, we're down here. What, Louis, what should we do? Walks to the center of the circle. He takes off his symbolic white helmet, says, there are no bosses and no employees here. There are none, period. Boom. And it's just this. This uneasy uncertainty, this pause really, where people have to actually let go of control. Like, we are together here. And then shortly after that, there was another moment where somebody counted Heads. And they realized they were the same. It's 33. That number's meaningful. It's the same age that Christ was. These are Catholic folks, right? Was when he was crucified. And maybe there's something. And he asked the question, maybe there's something bigger waiting for us out there.

[Kim Scott]

There.

[Daniel Coyle]

Maybe just a question wasn't an answer. It was a question. Maybe somebody's bigger. These are both two questions. We, they thought, what service saved them? Were answers. But in fact, what saved them were these questions. Deep questions. Yeah, what if there were no leaders and no employees? Yeah, what if there's something bigger waiting for us? Simple questions. And that question shifted people's attention and allowed them to connect. We think of those moments as being like magical moments. Right. But they're not magical. They're actually. How are our attention systems work? We're built to connect to other people. But to do that, we have to kind of let of control a little bit. We have to surrender a lot.

[Kim Scott]

Not just a little, you know, take off a hat and say, there are no leaders here.

[Daniel Coyle]

That's a hell of a thing. That's a hell of a moment. And that's how they survived. So this idea that the last thing you want to do, letting go of control, is actually the thing that will save you. The thing that will save you is relationships. And relationships happen in openness. They don't happen through answers. They happen through questions where you say, what if there's something bigger here? What if there were no bosses and employees? And mean it. And mean it. Not manipulate, not control, but mean it. So that. That's why I started the book with that story. Because it's. I think sometimes it feels like we're down in the mine these days.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. I mean, one of the things in radical candor that I talk about is you're just like, if relationships are at the core of your ability to succeed as a leader, there are a few things that are more damaging to a relationship than a power hierarchy. So even though you're a manager, and you still are a manager, you're, you know, you're not down in the mine. You can't. You don't have the freedom to take your hat off. You do have the freedom to figure out how to lay that power down in some other way so that you get on a level playing field and, and, and, get. And, you know, work well with your team.

[Daniel Coyle]

I love.

[Kim Scott]

Because if you don't take that hat off, if you don't lay that power down, people are not going to tell you what the truth is.

[Daniel Coyle]

That's right. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And that idea that the relationship is this living thing that you have to nurture through these moments, and those moments always end up kind of revolving around curiosity and questions. And again, that sounds kind of soft, but if you think of it in a chain, you know that the quality of your work life or your life is the quality of relationships. We know that. Right. Well, the quality of relationships. Let's dig into that. That's the quality of your convers.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Daniel Coyle]

Like, if you have bad conversations, you have. You don't have good relationships. And then let's go go one level deeper. The quality of your conversations depends on the quality of your questions.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Daniel Coyle]

Like, good. You cannot get great conversations out of bad questions or to have having all the answers. So, like. And that depends on curiosity. So it's like that, you know, curiosity isn't some nice little extra. It's like, absolutely the. The. The governing software of these moments. You know, it is the essential moment that. That they had in the mind and that I saw in all these places that I visited. And I think that you are capturing in. In so much of your work that moment of saying, what if. I don't know what's going on here? What if I step into uncertainty alongside somebody?

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. And what if we stop trying to do things like, let's create the space in our day to have these conversations? Because conversations take time. You can't multitask and have a conversation. And. And that means you have to. It feels when you're having a conversation, like you're not doing anything. You're actually doing the most important thing, I believe.

[Daniel Coyle]

Yeah, but is it hard to let go of that? It's like it's. It feels inefficient. It feels like it's a waste of time. And yet that's your. That's your key. Tell that it is not a waste of time. It's like such a. It's like. Talk about a reversal.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Daniel Coyle]

It's super hard.

[Kim Scott]

And I think that so much of. I mean, this is a random segue, but I was watching this TV show about a cult, and one of the things the cult leader did was kept people so frantically busy that they didn't realize what was going on really. That they had no perspective. And I. As I was watching this show, I was like, this is kind of like high school. Like, we gotta create some time for people. You know, I know young people.

[Daniel Coyle]

I know it's remind you of anyone so Busy runs me. Many, many situations, not the least of which is our national political one, but yes, yes, exactly.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Daniel Coyle]

And that phrase, creating space, like, I don't know about you, but I always looked on that space as, like that.

[Columbia Advertiser]

That.

[Daniel Coyle]

That phrase creating space always smelled a little like patchouli to me. Like, it smells a little hippie ish. Like, creating space. Like, come on, dude, like, you know, you don't need to create space for me. Let's just talk. Like, don't. Don't be so groovy. But actually, I've. I've. Through the course of this research, I've come to believe that that is an accurate and analytical beautiful description of what happens in healthy, flourishing cultures, is that they're good at creating space, which is inviting. Inviting people in like that. Like that miner did when he took off his helmet. He wasn't solving anything. He wasn't providing information. He wasn't guiding. He was creating space. And that's. That's a hell of a move. And I think great leaders are really, really good at it. Not just creating space for other people, but creating space inside their own day, inside their own reflections. Yeah, it's a. It's really a beautiful art.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. You're making time for it maybe is a better way.

[Daniel Coyle]

Yeah.

[Kim Scott]

And you have to make the time. You have to clear some space in your calendar is kind of. When I say make space, what I'm imagining is. Is actually just deleting some of the meetings off my calendar so I have time to. To do what I should be doing.

[Daniel Coyle]

Yeah. A little subtraction, right?

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. Yeah. Maybe even a lot. The. The other thing that that story of the miners in Chile reminded me of is. Did you. Did you ever read Paradise Made in Hell or Created?

[Daniel Coyle]

Absolutely.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. By Rebecca Solnit.

[Daniel Coyle]

Yeah.

[Kim Scott]

That is. That's a great book to read to, isn't it? To sort of understand how to flourish even in really hard situations.

[Daniel Coyle]

Because of really hard situations. Even. Right. Like, it made. That book, for readers who haven't seen it, is just this. This trip through some of the worst disasters ever and the beautiful communities that arose from the chaos and the ashes of these places. And people reflecting like that was the greatest. They feel guilty saying it actually. There was disasters, people saying that was the most fulfilling time of my life, when our whole town was ruined and we had to come together and make meals and take care of old people and.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Daniel Coyle]

And it made me think of, like, as a parent, it's like, what are the funnest nights of the year as A parent. And it made me think, I made me realize actually that blackouts when we lose power. And just like in her book, like, okay, how get the candles? What are we doing for dinner? What are we going to do? We're gathered around a game or something. Everybody candle it. It's, you know, it's, it's a bad thing, but in fact it's, it's a beautiful constraint to bring us together and help us self organize, which is at the core, agency, self organization is at the core of this feeling of aliveness.

[Kim Scott]

Exactly. And how can we, how can we create those moments without having the disaster have to happen? You know, like, let's think about that. It's really important. So also sort of continuing on the thoughts that you had about relationships and how to create a great relationship and something that really struck me in your book, for reasons that will become obvious, were your conversations around the Gottman method and working with that, with the world. I guess her name, what was her last name?

[Daniel Coyle]

Julie Schwartz and John Gottman.

[Kim Scott]

Julie Schwartz and John Gottman. So describe why that works for relationships. And in particular, I'm going to want to predictably double click on the word criticism because I talk a lot about the importance of giving criticism and they talk a lot about the danger of it. And I think it's just that we have a different definition of criticism. So I don't want to go too far down the semantic rat hole. But, you know, what works for relationships and what are the four horsemen of relationship apocalypse?

[Daniel Coyle]

Yeah, well, a little bit of backstory here when, you know, there's. There's been a lot of attempts to build sort of therapeutic models to help people have better relationships. And most of the, a lot of them don't work very well. I mean, that's, that's the scientific truth. The Gottman is the exception because it does. And the interesting thing about them, and he's a mathematician and she's a clinician, they built, they had this thing called the Love Lab where they observed in detail, like in painstaking, captured all the interactions of couples, healthy and unhealthy, and then tracked if they stay together or not. And so they kind of got it down to the signature behaviors, the fingerprint behaviors. And one of the things that they've, that they've noticed is the importance of kind of attention in this. Basically their method is about, is about paying certain kinds of attention to your partner, where the key example that they give is around something called bids. When someone has a bid for their partner's attention. It's Incredibly predictive if the. If the partner, like, looks out the window and says, huh, you. The other partner can either answer the bid positively, they can be neutral, or they can be negative. And what they found is that healthy relationships that stay together, they answer the bid positively. Like 82% of the time. Unhealthy relationships only answer the bid 33% of the time.

[Kim Scott]

For the. For attention.

[Daniel Coyle]

For attention. Just a bit. Just a little bit. Throat clearing.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. Like, look out the window or.

[Daniel Coyle]

Yeah. There's no information there. There's just pure attention. Just pure. Like, I'm listening. I care. I'm there. Presence, you might say. Presence.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Daniel Coyle]

And space. Yeah. And then they also found that there are what they call the four horsemen of relationship apocalypse, which are sort of four behaviors that predict whether relationships will not do well. And they are. I think stonewalling is one of them. You'll have to name the other ones. For me, I'm trying to make.

[Kim Scott]

Well, criticism. Let's. Let's just talk about criticism for a second.

[Daniel Coyle]

Yeah.

[Kim Scott]

Because that was one of the four horsemen. And I'm saying criticism in my book, I say criticism is really important for a good relationship. I think what they. What I call criticism, they would call having a productive disagreement. Yeah, but maybe that's.

[Daniel Coyle]

That's right.

[Kim Scott]

But. But if. So, in other words, there was. There was a story you told about laundry on the floor and. And the way not to tell your. Your spouse to pick up the laundry is you are so lazy. You know, that's. That's like, person. What I would call personalized criticism.

[Daniel Coyle]

You're.

[Kim Scott]

You're criticizing their personality attribute.

[Daniel Coyle]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Kim Scott]

And that is no good.

[Daniel Coyle]

Right.

[Kim Scott]

Whereas, you know, I find it frustrating when there's clothes on the floor or, you know, is another way to say it, or just clothes. Just like, you've had this conversation before, probably.

[Daniel Coyle]

Yeah.

[Kim Scott]

It's like with my kids when they. When they were not brushing their teeth, rather than, like, delivering the same damn lecture on hygiene. Dental hygiene. I would just say teeth, and then they go brush their teeth.

[Daniel Coyle]

Right, right. It's a cue. And you have. Beneath that is an understanding of why mom cares about this and why it's good.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Daniel Coyle]

And explaining that. And the Gottmans are very strong on, like, explaining the meaning behind things so that you don't have to go through just the information exchange piece of it. And there's kind of a. I don't know, there's a lightness to it that I think you're. You're. That you capture by just saying Teeth. There's something playful about that.

[Kim Scott]

Right.

[Daniel Coyle]

Which, which says we're in a relationship. You get it. I get it. Right.

[Kim Scott]

I know that you don't want to.

[Daniel Coyle]

I know that you know that's right, and I understand that. And so let's just have some. Let's have a little lightness and a little fun to it. And that's what they bring to those things. That quality of attention that is not robotic and it's not machine like and it's not command and control and it's not contempt. I think that's the other.

[Kim Scott]

Was the other. That's real dangerous. That's Horsemen of the relationship apocalypse. And I think that, that, like, to me, if you're gonna. If you really care about. If you don't respect someone, you're not going to. You're not going to show them that you care and you're also not going to challenge them. And so respectful. Maybe I should call it challenging and not criticism. Yeah, but like respectful, caring, challenging is important for all of this. You know, it's important for any relationship. I, I think that's right. And then, so then you move on in your book from individual relationships to sort of group flow to systems that work, and you tell this wonderful story about traffic. So talk, talk to me about traffic because I love that story.

[Daniel Coyle]

I'm so glad. I'm so glad. There's a guy named Hans Mondeman. He grew up fixing radios in, in. In. In the Netherlands. And he got fascinated with roads. And he saw roads as like the sort of. Like you saw radios, like these mysterious things that connect us. And he became a driving instructor and then a road engineer. And he got obsessed with this question, which is why do accidents happen? Like, why. Why do people have accidents on the road?

[Kim Scott]

The answer. But we don't.

[Daniel Coyle]

Right? Right. He digs into it and he sort of. It brings him to the fact that the things that are meant to stop accidents, which is clear, really clearly marked lanes, very clear signals and stop signs actually are things that turn off people's brains, that accidents happen because they're. They just think the stop sign is the only thing they have to pay attention to and they miss the things right in front of them. They're. We're on autopilot. Like we are sometimes in our organizations or our family. We're on autopilot. So he decided to try. This is like in the 80s, he of kind some somehow he must be a very persuasive guy. He convinced a village to rip out all the traffic signals and create Just this big open space, almost like a giant roundabout. They used some plantings. It sent this signal that, like you are now in a village. And they remove even all the curbs. Everything is kind of flat and open. And when drivers come up on that, they. They sort of stop and they self organize their way through it, respectfully, carefully, moving around the kids, moving around the caf. It's called the open space revolution, and it's been adopted on Kensington High street in London, in Savannah, Georgia, and Palm Beach, Florida. And this idea is that you're. The best solution to any kind of traffic situation is to create a context where people can organize themselves. People want to organize themselves.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Daniel Coyle]

They don't want to just be a robot organized. They don't want to say, stop, go, stop, go.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Daniel Coyle]

Traffic lights are frustrating for that. But if I can kind of go into the flow. And anybody who's ever walked on a New York City sidewalk experienced this all the time. It's kind of fun, right? It's kind of frustrating, and it's a little static, but it's kind of fun. And you're. You're not obeying. No one's telling you to step here. You go left, you go right. The whole group, like a flock of birds, is organizing itself around obstacles. And we have the ability to do this. And so what I saw in the places that I visited that were flourishing is that they were leaders, were super intentional about creating context with three key pieces. We need to give people autonomy and agency. We need to give them that freedom. We can't be telling them what to do. Right?

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. Telling people what to do does not work.

[Daniel Coyle]

Does not work. We need to give them a really clear horizon to go toward. We got to have them a really clear horizon. Like, we got to be clear that we're going north, that we're moving this direction, that that's our horizon, our goal. We're going to our vision. And then you have to give them ownership and connection. You got to give them a sense that they own what they're doing, that they're part responsible for this part. And so I saw it, you know, I saw it really vividly on a rugby team, the All Blacks rugby team of New Zealand, one of the best ones. They have players, organized, practice every so often, which, yeah, it's not efficient. It's a little bit like Mondeman's, you know, roundabouts. Like, it's a little messy, but that messiness is not actually messiness. That messiness, it's ownership, it's agency, it's flow.

[Kim Scott]

Creativity, you're going to do things a little differently. You're going to, you know, in order to clean up the mess, you learn something that actually prevents the next. Next 15 messes.

[Daniel Coyle]

Exactly right. You're treating people like human beings. If we were to sum it up like that, not like cogs in a machine.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Daniel Coyle]

And so I kept seeing that same pattern, which from a leadership perspective really kind of blew my mind a little bit because, you know, like a lot of people, I kind of, you know, grew up trained on the idea that the leader is the person with the answers and who knows the direction in the ocean we're going and who has his hands on the, on the, on the steering wheel of the ship. And this, these leaders were like, they were more asking questions like what do you think great looks like? And where they was creating really firm guardrails. You know, like players will organize practice this week, but not all the time. And yeah, practices from 2 to 4. And so clear constraints, clear horizons and, and then a ton of agency and they would be comfortable. You know, I call it the rule of the beautiful mess. Like if it's not a little messy, you're not doing it right. And mess is the door doorway toward

[Kim Scott]

creating something new and towards self organizing. I mean, I think it feels very. Eleanor Ostrom, you know, the, the economist who wrote about the tragedy of the commons is not always the tragedy of the commons. There are many, many, many examples throughout human history of, of people being able to self organize much better than any system of rules could ever do.

[Daniel Coyle]

It's so true. And we feel it, you know, if anybody's an athlete, they feel it in their, in, you know, what's the best way to get better at a skill? It's not to like paint by the numbers. And I'm going to move this arm and that arm. No, it's best to like, if you're going to try to jump over something, you self organize and you jump over it. That's the best way. You don't do it by the numbers. You actually, this way of creating a space and exploring into it is, is how all learning happens.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah, yeah. And so leaders today need to think about their job as building good systems, but not command and control bureaucracies. And I think too often when you think about the word system, you think of some kind of terrible bureaucracy built by healthcare insurance or something. Those are terrible bureaucracies. And I learned this, I think one of the other mistakes, and I don't know, I don't know about you, but that I Made about leadership early is I thought, you know, if I were in charge, everything would be better because I'm such a good person with such good intentions, you know, and it turns out that's completely false.

[Daniel Coyle]

Yeah, right.

[Kim Scott]

Even a good person will create a terrible situation if they don't take the time to build systems.

[Daniel Coyle]

It's so true. Yeah, right. And that to build living systems, not to build machine like systems and leader as designer is really an interesting kind of metaphor because I think it puts the spotlight on the fact there's a humility to being a designer. There's learning as you design, that you adapt the design as you go. You don't just kind of issue it and good luck, everybody. It's convert design. Good designers are having sort of a conversation with the people that they're being designed for. And that's. That's the kind of personality that I kept seeing over and over again. Willingness to admit error, a willingness to be curious about how things were going. A clarity, a real clarity about. About where we were headed. I mean, that was huge. Right. And. And it. In the one hand, it's kind of intimidating to have leadership be complexified like that. Like that sounds more complicated than just knowing the answer and telling people what to do.

[Kim Scott]

Except that you don't know the answer. And telling people what to do doesn't work. So it doesn't work.

[Daniel Coyle]

So you may as well do this. And I don't know about you, but I've had the same conversation with veteran leaders over and over again when you ask them about their journey. Right. Ask a great leader about their journey and they will often say some version of, you know, for the first 10 years, I really thought I needed to have all the answers and I gr. And I thought I was doing a good job and I really like. But I reached a point where that stopped working for me or my job got so big and complex and I realized I had to change from being like the person with the answers to becoming like the person with the good questions.

[Kim Scott]

The questions. Yeah. Where your job is listening. I think another great example in your book of this is the Austin school district. I love that story. So talk. Talk to us about the. The Austin school district and what happened.

[Daniel Coyle]

Yeah, this was in the 70s. I started busing and there was a lot of racial tension all of a sudden in these suburban schools where kids were being bused from poor neighborhoods into middle class schools and the kids were fighting and the parents were upset and there was all kinds of bad feeling and the teachers were just barely holding it together. And they contacted a PhD student at the University of Texas, Elliot Aronson. And they brought him into the school and they said, is there something you could help us, Help us make this more peaceful, Help us make this right? And so he decided to try an experiment where instead of having the teacher at the front of the class teaching the lesson that he would essentially flip it and he would divide the classroom up into small groups. He called it the Jigsaw classroom. Each group would be in charge of part of the lesson. If you were learning about the life of Teddy Roosevelt, you would. Someone would learn about his youth, some would learn about his wartime experience. And. And they divide up the lesson and each person is responsible for a small part of that lesson. Lesson. So the flips from being the student, being the passive vessel, the obedient vessel, raising their hand, saying I know the answer to these small cooperative groups where everyone's in charge of their certain piece and the job is to teach it to their classmates. Their job is to teach it. So. And in these classrooms that did that, what they found was that they had better performance. They also had warmer relationships. Incidents of racial prejudice and violence dropped dramatically. And average teachers, average, averagely skilled teachers using this method taught better than the best teachers with the old method. So it's transformational moment where kids went from being consumers to being citizens of their classroom. Where they go from being just sort of vessels to being having to step into uncertainty alongside their fellow students. And it's the same pattern that I saw in so many of the places I visited where they, they're designing. It's a design choice, spaces where people can get into flow together, where people can, can each have a role, where they can have some agency, where they're going toward a clear horizon and they're self organizing. They're using their own ideas and energy to add to the conversation. They're not just passive. And it makes the classroom come alive. And there's a real. In the book I include this really moving letter written by a formerly shy student. I think his name was Pablo. He ended up going to Harvard. And when he got to Harvard, he saw a little study that hit the study about his, his classroom. And he wrote Aaronson a letter just saying, when I showed up, I was. I didn't want to raise my hand. I didn't like it, I didn't like school, I didn't like my classmates. And this structure really made me realize that I was. They also were scared and we got to be friends and I'm about to go to Harvard Law School and. But like growth is never linear, growth is never predictable. Growth is never command and control. Control. And so these, these places are good at designing for growth, I guess is the way to put it.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. And I love what you said about this experience where, where leaders stopped analyzing the parts of a system or of the people in the system to experiencing the whole. And I, I think it's sort of what Martin Buber calls an I thou relationship is. It's, it's not just respectful kind of leadership, but it's a leadership that's actually reverent to each of the people who, you know and, and that means you as a leader need to be. You're laying your power down because you're reverent to the people who.

[Daniel Coyle]

What a good word that is. That really. That really does capture it is. It is a reverence because there's something bigger than you that you. It's not you. And you have to respect. Respect it and you have to give it the benefit of the doubt and you have to let it grow the same way. You're kind of like reverent toward even, you know, a garden, you know.

[Kim Scott]

Right.

[Daniel Coyle]

You know, a tree. Like there's something there that's mysterious and cool and worth. Worth attending to. Yeah, it's really cool.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. Yeah. I love that the Let's. I know that we're coming up on time, but you have such an. Great story also in the book about the same kind of reverent leadership about the Kibera school for girls that was getting built and how. How the leader of that, I think like the most effective NGO in the world handled a really hard situation.

[Daniel Coyle]

Yeah. His name is Kennedy Odedes, a former street kid that started this organization that now is a multimillion dollar employment, employs 88% local people in these local settlement in Kibera, Kenya. And one day they were building a school for girls. And as happens sometimes some thugs in the neighborhood came by to try to. Thugs isn't probably the right word I would use, but some sort of mafia types almost in the neighborhood came by to try to steal equipment. And there was a brawl and one of them got hurt, got slashed with a machete. And Odede's response was not to fight them, it was to take that person to the hospital and pay for their medical care. And also explain that school is for their kids too. Like that school is for your kids.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah, you're robbing from yourself.

[Daniel Coyle]

You're robbing from yourself. And so the patience, the curiosity that he brought to that Moment is what he's brought to every moment. And he's one of the key reasons that this, this, this. We're talking about Shafko. It's called Shining Hope for Communities. But that level of reverence, I guess, is what he had there where he, you know, other people would see someone who's trying to rob them and. And he was able to let go of that, take off his white helmet, so to speak, and.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Daniel Coyle]

And connect with this person and the person level at a human level. I mean, incredibly difficult to do and incredibly powerful.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. And you, you interviewed a bunch of people who had worked for him, and it sounded like they all had a similar description of his leadership style. He never told people what to do.

[Daniel Coyle]

Listening, listening, listening. He's like, listening is the superpower. And he's really clear, too, because he actually was educated at Wesley and he came over and did a. Did his college over here, and he's, he just is a really clear litmus test on the difference on what, What Western education kind of does to you. He made me. He may point it out to me, like, boy, he's like the Western people. You've kind of. You've. You've lost touch with your soul a little bit.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Daniel Coyle]

And I think there's a deep truth in that. And these, These places all taught me that same lesson that we're not going to think our way and analyze our way and command and control our way forward through this situation we're in now. We're going to have to like human and conversation and curiosity our way forward. I'm not sure if I invented a couple new words there.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah, that's good.

[Daniel Coyle]

We're gonna curiosity our way forward.

[Kim Scott]

Nouns are verbs now. Yeah. We do have. I mean, because I think that that's. I mean, so interesting that he pointed out how Western education really hurt his. Hurt his ability to be. He had to unlearn some of what he learned.

[Daniel Coyle]

That's right.

[Kim Scott]

When he went to college here.

[Daniel Coyle]

That's right.

[Kim Scott]

And that, that, that is that taking us back to watching my kids being too damn busy and thinking they're in the cult. I don't know what. That's. The cult of capitalism. Maybe high school in America right now.

[Daniel Coyle]

I know. Isn't that the truth? I mean, and, and so. But I think we're in the process and maybe AI will help hasten this. I'd be curious to get your take, but, like, does it feel like people are moving? That there's a clarity now between kind of the. The treadmill to nowhere and kind of these human communities and kind of team human stuff that I'm seeing. And I'm, I have older kids from 30 to 24, and I'm seeing them kind of. They have more clarity around that stuff than, than maybe five or ten years ago.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Daniel Coyle]

I feel they're moving toward. They're craving community and they're creating community.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah, yeah. And they're understanding flow and laying down power. I think that, I don't know, AI will either help with it or it'll destroy us, depending on whether we manage it or we let it manage us. And it's still in our, in our. It's still possible for us to manage it. And also to make sure that it doesn't. That we don't allow the next wave of, of technical progress to do what the last one did, which is to vastly exacerbate the gulf between the rich and the poor. If, if AI yields the top, the richest 100 people all the money and takes it away from the rest of everyone else, that then it won't have helped, but it could. It has the capacity to help. For sure. For sure. Let's end on your, on your, on the sequel to Moneyball, your experience with the Guardians, because it's a great story and a very different, very different environment to the other ones that we've talked about, I think.

[Daniel Coyle]

Oh, thanks. Yeah. Cleveland Guardians, formerly the Indians, are. It's actually where Moneyball originated.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Daniel Coyle]

Billy Bean hired analysts from the Guardian from now Guardians who were really good. They figured out the algorithms to identify good players. Well, like any good algorithm, it gets shared. And so like, the advantage is fleeting. Is absolutely fleeting. And so about 13 years ago, I'd written a book about talent development and the Guardians brought me in as a consultant because they realized if we do it like other people, we're going to lose.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Daniel Coyle]

We have to be less Moneyball, more Montessori Ball is the way they thought about it. Because we have to have kids learn, we have to have these, these are, this is a school system. It's a high performance school system. You play in big stadiums, but ultimately there's, there's these teams. We've got to make great players. And slowly, but, but surely it's worked. The. Over the last 13 years, we've won as many games as the New York Yankees and we spent $1.5 billion less. So we're adding up to more. We're developing good players. We haven't won the World Series yet, but the way we've done it, it's Coming. It's coming, it's coming, it's coming. But the way we've done it is to continue continually kind of reverse engineer command and like flip it from command and control into intrinsic motivation, growth, mindset, small groups.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Daniel Coyle]

Kind of the, the cardinal example of it would be when we, we realized we need to improve our coaching. If we're going to create great players, we need to have the best coaches in the world. And how do we do that? Well, our first instinct was to bring in great coaches and have them tell our guys what to do.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Daniel Coyle]

Like we brought in Michael Phelps's coach. We brought in a Navy SEAL commander, brought in all these great coaches, and they told them, and it didn't move the needle one bit. We were trying to coerce them into change. Guess what? Nobody likes that.

[Kim Scott]

No. No. So telling people what to do doesn't work.

[Daniel Coyle]

Doesn't work.

[Kim Scott]

Our conversation, the theme.

[Daniel Coyle]

So. But it takes a long time to learn that and relearn that. So finally someone suggested, wait a minute, what if we put them in small groups and ask them a simple question. Who is the best coach you ever had? And what did they do? And all of a sudden what had been like people in their defensive shell. All of a sudden the conversations just started bubbling like champagne. It was like they're telling stories and they're recognizing things and they're seeing things. And we took those conversations, we captured them, and we turned them into the model of excellence that we use today for coaching excellence. And it comes from them. It's their language, it's their words, it's their truths. And combine that with the best in evidence based science and you end up with something really, really powerful. Because groups of people are not machines. They're like rivers. And we were able to kind of tilt that river towards something good. And it continues to, to help grow coaches and players.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah, it's coaches who had reverence for the players rather than trying to tell them what to do.

[Daniel Coyle]

That's right. That's right. That stuff, that lights up the players and it lights up the scoreboard. So.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Daniel Coyle]

Yeah. So far, so good.

[Kim Scott]

I love it. Well, well, Daniel, thank you so much for writing flourish. I'm gonna hold up for people the, the. I listen to all books on. On Libro FM now. So I don't have the book behind me, but love the book. You have the book behind you. You can hold it up. There you go. For people who still want the, the. The copy of the book, which I recommend getting and often I'll. Yeah, I'll I'll read it and listen to it at the same time.

[Daniel Coyle]

That's awesome. Well, thanks so much for your work and this is such a fun conversation. Thank you so much for making it happen.

[Kim Scott]

Thank you. Loved chatting with you. Let people know where they can find out more about you and your work and how to follow you. How best yeah.

[Daniel Coyle]

Danielcoyle.com I'm not really followable, but you can send me an email. How about that?

[Kim Scott]

I love it. I love it. Yeah, it's good. Very. I think getting off of social media is a great idea. All right. Thank you so much, Dan.

[Daniel Coyle]

Thanks, Kim.

[Kim Scott]

The Radical Candor podcast is based on the book Radical the A Kick Ass Boss without losing your Humanity by Ken Scott. The Radical Candor podcasting music was composed by Cliff Goldmacher. Follow us on LinkedIn radical candor the company and visit us [e-mail] you can't

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