Dr. Becky Kennedy - Good Inside - S8 | E19

Summary

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Episode Overview

Title: Dr. Becky Kennedy – Good Inside
Podcast: Radical Candor: Communication at Work (S8 E19)
Hosts: Kim Scott, Jason Rosoff, Amy Sandler
Guest: Dr. Becky Kennedy, author of “Good Inside”
Date: July 7, 2026

Theme:
This episode dives deep into the intersection between modern parenting concepts and workplace relationships. Dr. Becky Kennedy, renowned psychologist and author, shares her foundational “Good Inside” philosophy—centered around balancing boundaries with connection and believing in the inherent goodness of children—and discusses how these principles resonate in adult relationships, managers, and leadership at work. Kim Scott and Dr. Becky explore how practices that nurture healthy parent-child dynamics directly translate into effective management, feedback, and collaboration in professional environments.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Overlap of “Good Inside” and Radical Candor

• Both approaches are rooted in the balance of caring personally and challenging directly.
• Dr. Becky shares, “Kids need boundaries… and someone to believe in them. But they also need us to connect with them... to see that their feelings are real” (01:43).
• Kim notes, “So much of what Radical Candor is about is stuff we all should have learned in childhood but didn’t" (02:50).
• The concept of “unfinished business of childhood” at work—many workplace behaviors are echoes of childhood relationship patterns.

2. Relationship Skills: Learned, Not Innate

• Dr. Becky dispels the myth that relationship instincts (especially in parenting) are natural:
  “The only thing that comes naturally in parenting is how you were parented. Anybody can learn to show up in a way that feels better, but we’re not going to naturally absorb that by walking down the street.” (05:05)
• Kim draws parallels between this and the need for intentional learning as a manager.

3. Managers as Parental Figures at Work

• Kim describes management as “becoming a projection screen for everyone’s unresolved authority or parental issues” (06:20).
• Dr. Becky suggests curiosity as the first, most important response in heated moments, whether parenting or managing: “If we take things at full face value, we’re going to have a very unproductive conversation… Curiosity is such an important trait.” (06:54)
• She likens adult “tantrums” in workplace disputes to toddler meltdowns, emphasizing the power of holding space, not escalating.

4. Managing Emotional Fire: Containment, Not Escalation

• Emotions (at work or at home) are described as “emotional fires”—if you can’t extinguish them, contain them.
• Dr. Becky: “It’s about focusing more on your own regulation inside. Your kid (or colleague) can feel whether you’ve been taken over by their fire.” (11:15)
• Kim links this to the patience required not to add “fuel to the fire” and lets emotion “burn out,” leading to a more productive follow-up conversation.

5. Connection Capital & Emotional Bank Accounts

• Dr. Becky introduces the idea of “connection capital”: emotional deposits and withdrawals in relationships (13:00).
• “Every time you ask a kid (or employee) to do something they don’t want to do, you’re withdrawing. That’s why you better be an even bigger depositor” (13:22).
• High-impact moments matter more than quantity, e.g., greeting routines, after school/work reunions, bedtime conversations (15:39).
• “You want more good moments than bad moments; you’ll never have none, and that’s okay. The repair can become your best move.” (17:33)

6. Accountability & Repair: Modeling What We Expect

• Dr. Becky underscores the power of apologizing and repairing in parenting, as a model for children (and teams): “How can I expect my kid to be accountable for their bad behavior if I’m not accountable for mine?” (19:31)
• Kim adds that “sometimes our best moments as parents (and managers) are after our worst moments, because repair builds trust” (19:13).

7. Emotional Resonance, Guilt, and Cognitive Traps

• Kim shares a personal story of stress and losing her temper (21:54), and Dr. Becky validates moments of struggle, emphasizing modeling emotional self-awareness and regulating before “repairing” (23:16).
• “We respond to the story we tell ourselves about other people’s behaviors, not just the behaviors. Change the story, change your reaction.” (26:29)

8. Feedback & Criticism: Compassionate, Not Harmful

• Dr. Becky’s approach merges boundaries with belief in inherent goodness: “All feelings are okay, all behaviors are not. Boundaries matter, but so does connection” (29:57).
• Example of setting boundaries compassionately: “I won’t let you hit… You’re a good kid having a hard time” (31:19).
• Kim: “You’re not judging the child; you’re judging the behavior… Two things can be true at the same time” (32:42).

9. How to Challenge Directly Without Losing Care

• Discuss the problems with “If you don’t have something nice to say, don’t say anything at all” (37:05).
• Dr. Becky shares a story of her friend’s child at Starbucks, modeling respectful directness and self-advocacy (38:50).
• “There are many ways to say things that are true; the goal is to say it as true for you as it is respectful of the other person” (39:12).
• Kim introduces the importance of “respect” as the next evolution of Radical Candor (40:27).

10. Emotion: Information Not Inconvenience

• Dr. Becky: “Emotions are information our body gives us about what we care about, what we value… The issue is building the skills to manage those emotions, not shutting them down” (42:25).
• Suppressing feelings leads to escalation; learning to identify and process them is essential both in parenting and at work.

11. Bullying and Boundaries: Preventing Harm in Groups

• Dr. Becky: “My number one job is to keep my kids safe… Not just physically, but emotionally… If I allow nasty threatening or name-calling, I’m not keeping anyone safe—including the bully” (53:00).
• Intervene early: “The best time to intervene is when things are at a 2 out of 10, not a 10 out of 10” (53:36).
• Treating verbal violence and physical violence with equal seriousness.

12. The Enduring Parallel: How Parenting Lessons Make Better Leaders and Vice Versa

• Both Kim and Dr. Becky reflect on how skills learned in work transfer to parenting and vice versa (56:12).
• Dr. Becky: “You’re doing important work raising the next generation and improving humanity. Really.” (20:24)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Dr. Becky Kennedy

  • “The only thing that comes naturally in parenting is how you were parented.” (05:05)
  • “Curiosity is such an important trait that we all need to keep cultivating—in parenting, definitely, and in the workplace too.” (06:54)
  • “Focus a lot less on what you say outside, and a lot more on your own regulation on the inside.” (11:15)
  • “Connection capital: Every single time you ask a kid to do something they don’t inherently want to do, you’re making a withdrawal. You better be an even bigger depositor.” (13:22)
  • “Sometimes our best moments as parents come after our worst moments—because repair builds trust.” (17:55)
  • “We respond to the story we tell ourselves about other people’s behaviors, not the behaviors themselves.” (26:29)
  • “All feelings are okay and all behaviors are not.” (29:57)
  • “Say something that feels as true for you as it is respectful of the other person.” (39:12)

• Kim Scott

  • “Becoming a manager is to become a projection screen for everyone’s unresolved authority or parental issues… Usually the wicked step-parent, not the loving ideal parent.” (06:20)
  • “You want more good moments than bad moments; you’ll never have none, and that’s okay. The repair can become your best move.” (17:46)
  • “Feedback is the atomic building block of collaboration… both praise and criticism should show you care and challenge.” (27:38)
  • “If you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all—that makes it really hard to challenge directly.” (37:05)
  • “You want good… You want to model good behavior, not model bad behavior.” (52:21)
  • “I think we learn a lot from our kids about how to have a better career, and from our career, how to be a better parent.” (56:12)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:43 – Dr. Becky explains core “Good Inside” philosophy: boundaries and connection
• 05:05 – Debunking intuition myths: You parent as you were parented, unless you intentionally learn
• 06:54 – Curiosity as key to productive conflict, both in parenting and work
• 11:15 – Emotional regulation, containment vs. escalation analogy
• 13:22 – Explaining “connection capital” in relationships
• 17:46 – The role of repair after conflict; “more good moments than bad”
• 19:31 – Modeling accountability through parental apologies
• 26:29 – How stories drive reactions more than behaviors
• 29:57 – Differentiating between feelings and behaviors; how to set boundaries compassionately
• 39:12 – Dr. Becky’s Starbucks story: Directness plus respect
• 42:25 – Emotions as essential information, not obstacles
• 53:00 – Preventing bullying: Intervening at the right time, keeping everyone emotionally safe
• 56:12 – Closing reflections on mutual learning between work and parenting

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Key Takeaways for Listeners

• The skills that foster strong, healthy relationships with children are the same skills that build productive, resilient teams at work.
• Curiosity, humility, and intentionality are crucial for both parenting and management, especially during conflict.
• Accountability and repair, not perfection, are the foundations of trust in any relationship.
• Setting boundaries and giving feedback can—and should—be done lovingly and directly, with compassion and respect.
• Emotional intelligence is a skill that must be learned and honed, not a natural trait.
• “Care personally, challenge directly” is as important when dealing with your children as when leading colleagues—these are not separate skillsets, but different contexts for the same core human needs.

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For further actionable tips and relatable stories, listen to the full dialogue—full of laughter, humility, and practical wisdom.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Hello everybody and welcome to the Radical Sabbatical. This is the Radical Kindred podcast where I am talking to the authors of books that have enormous meaning for me. And I am thrilled today to have with us Dr. Becky Kennedy, author of Good Inside. Welcome, Dr. Kennedy. Dr. Becky.

[A]

Thank you, Kim. So happy to be here.

[B]

Thrilled, thrilled to have you. I want to. I think there's so much overlap actually between our work. Radical Candor is about caring personally and challenging directly at the same time. And I really feel like good insight is kind of about the same thing. Two good things can be true at the same time.

[A]

Yes. Well, I think those two things, you know, one of what I hold so kind of at the core of Good Inside is that kids need kind of boundaries. They need expectations. Right. By the way, that they're not going to meet. Like I need to believe my kid is capable of making a transition or is capable of having better behavior. I need to hold onto that belief way longer than a minute or two because that doesn't mean the next day things are gonna change. But they need expectations. They need someone to believe in them. Right? And they also Boundaries, right? That's one thing. At the same time, I think kids really need us to connect to them. They need to see that their feelings are actually real. They need to be seen as good inside, even when they have bad behavior. And I think that side of things has a lot of validation and warmth. And I think in this new age of parenting, we've kind of overcorrected to that side and a little bit left out. Our belief in our kids capability, our belief that they need to tolerate struggle, are holding boundaries that are really important for them. And I think good inside brings that back into the picture.

[B]

I love it. I love it. And in fact, part of when I was writing Radical Candor, my college roommate was reading it and giving me advice, and she said to me that the workplace is all about the unfinished business of childhood. And I feel like so much of what Radical Candor is about is stuff that we all should have learned in childhood but didn't.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I guess I think that's what adulthood is. Isn't that what adulthood is? Unfinished parenting is our adult friendship stuff. We make friends with another mom at, you know, at preschool, and we see three moms were at coffee and we weren't invited, and I'm like, oh, my goodness, why? Why am I going back to what happened to me in middle school and on the soccer team in elementary school? Right. Because the stuff that is unfinished or unhealed will make itself known to us in all different ways to try to get our attention, you know, to try to get that healing and growth. And I think you're right.

[B]

Yes. Even more true when the parent is a dad, that the exclusion happens. Right. From the other. Other parents. I watch my husband struggle with that a lot. Another thing that was said to me that I think will resonate with you is early on in Radical Candor, I would say you just need to bring what you already know about relationships to work. And this engineer stopped me and he said, kim, I wish you would stop saying, you know, if you write a book about feedback, you're gonna get a lot of it. And here was the feedback. He said, I wish you would stop saying that, because most people don't know how to have relationships. And your job, Kim, is to begin to teach them. And a lot of your work is so helpful. Again, not just about parenting, but about collaborating at work, whether you're the manager or the employee or someone's peer.

[A]

Yeah. You know, and I think. I think this is a really important point, because if I told you I was going to change careers and become an astrophysicist, and then you said, well, Becky, what do you know about astrophysics? I'd say, honestly, not a lot. But I think you'd say to me, hopefully, okay, well, I hope you go learn things. Because, by the way, like, learning about astrophysicism, Becky, doesn't come naturally. Like, you can really want to, but it's not something someone's going to drop on your doorstep. And there's something. Yeah, there's something with relationships. And then I think, especially with parenting, because of this maternal instinct narrative that we have in our culture, that it should come naturally. That knowing how to show up for my kid and stay calm when they're tantruming and hold a boundary around their behavior, no, I will not let you hit, but have that not resort in me yelling random things I never intend to follow up on. That would come naturally. And I think parents find a lot of relief when I tell them the only thing that comes naturally in parenting is how you were parented. And that actually makes sense, which doesn't mean you're locked into that forever. No one in my family was an astrophysicist, so it doesn't come naturally. But I could be if I put the time in and anybody can learn about parenting and show up in a way that feels better and stay connected to their kid and hold high expectations. It's just that we're not going to naturally absorb that by walking down the street.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. You have to be. You have to become aware of how you were parented and maybe learn something about what could have gone better, you know, while forgiving your parents.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

One of the things that I often say about becoming a manager is that becoming a manager is to become a projection screen for everyone's unresolved authority issues or parental issues, which is uncomfortable for most people. So, like it or not, when you become a manager, you're often cast in the role of parent, and usually the wicked step parent, you know, not the loving ideal parent. So how would you suggest dealing with that as a manager, with being cast in the role of the evil step parent?

[A]

Well, I mean, I think there's probably an even broader question. Let's start with that. At work, where when something is just really heated between two people or when you feel like someone says something to you that you didn't really deserve, how do we operate in a way that's both effective, that feels respectful to everyone, and that preserves the relationship, Assuming it's someone you need to stay in a relationship with, or you want to like your kid or like your employee. Right. So, you know, the first word that comes to mind is actually curiosity here. Right. And I think curiosity is such an important trait that we all need to keep cultivating. And parenting definitely in workplace, too. Because if I think about in your work situation, someone says something to me where like, hey, I really didn't like the way you intervened in this meeting, Becky, and you're a horrible manager. And I feel like I'm in this kind of wicked Stepmother. You know, kind of position that maybe I think even someone's overreacting to. It's interesting, Kim. What it reminds me exactly of is when you say to a toddler, oh, TV time is over. It's time to get ready for a bath. I hate you. You're the worst mom. And what the heck, I just. What did that happen? Right. And in both situations, what's remarkably similar is if we only respond to the words on the surface, to the behavior. To the behavior.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

If we take them kind of at full face value, we're gonna have a very unproductive conversation.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Honestly, it's probably the same thing in both situations, I'd say, what are you talking about? You're making a big deal out of nothing. You can't talk to me that way. It's gonna blame. It's just.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Fuel curiosity. Which is really hard in both situations. Probably starts with me taking a deep breath and reminding myself, hold on a second, something's going on here. This moment doesn't define me as a person. And then maybe even saying, hold on, you're really upset about something. Yeah, I believe you. I also have a feeling you could tell that to me in a different way. So let's start again. It's actually interesting whether I'm talking to my 4 year old or I'm talking to my 44 year old colleague, I actually think the same language could really apply. And it comes from. Even though their language is so escalated, there must be some part that's very real underneath. And I want to be curious enough to go beneath the words and figure out what's going on at the core. Because if I don't, you know what's gonna happen. That core is gonna continue spewing lava over and over.

[B]

And I think that is one of the things that was so helpful to me about becoming a parent in the workplace that I learned, I had to learn when my, you know, when my two year olds were laying. I have twins, so I always talk about children in the plural, but they, they would lay down on the floor in the grocery store and kick and scream, you know, and, and yes, I had to learn how to take that deep breath. But the thing about it that I learned is that no human being, whether they're 4 or 40 or 75, can sort of sustain that level of emotion for more than about 90 seconds, maybe two minutes if they really have a great capacity for strong emotion. And if I could just refrain from pouring fuel on the fire, it would go out by itself. And that is so helpful at work, especially when dealing with senior leaders. So if I'm not the employee, if I'm not the evil boss, but the employee, you know, just learning how to treat that the same way I learned how to treat it was. It's easier to handle in a tantrum for a two year old than your boss, but it is, it's useful.

[A]

I think you're talking about when someone's really out of control. Sometimes I think it's actually powerful to think about them as kind of their feelings, their thoughts, their feelings, their urges in their body kind of are exploding out like an emotional fire. This is an emotional fire. And in life we don't have emotional fire extinguishers. We just don't. So I'm sorry to all of you who thought you could find. We can't just like put it out, you know. And so what's the next best available option? If there were a fire in your kitchen, if you couldn't extinguish it, you would contain it, right? You would actually say, I can't make this fire go out, but I can prevent it from spreading.

[B]

From spreading, yes.

[A]

And so if you think about containing it and then I think about, you know, a two year old on the grocery store floor, containment often means, okay, maybe I need to pick them up off the floor. If they're like kicking the cereal because now all the cereal is falling off. Right. Maybe I need to get down low with them and just say simple words like I'm here, or you know, I'm not going to let you hit your sister or whatever it is. But actually it's saying a lot less on the outside and focusing a lot more on your own regulation on the inside. Because your kid can feel whether you've been taken over by their fire. Now you're a fire. Stop, you're embarrassing me. Or they feel if you can stay calm and that makes them kind of trust you, like, oh, the thing that overwhelmed me didn't overwhelm my mom.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And that's kind of. And same thing at work. Someone says something, it's so inflammatory. It's good language because there's a fire image there. As good as it feels to kind of snap something back, you are just adding fuel. So is the fuel making the fire bigger? Is that worth it to feel like really powerful in the moment and deliver a zinger, like only, you know, I don't tend to think it's worth it, you know, unless the zinger is like really good, but just doing nothing and containing it Allows the fire to get smaller, and then you can have a more reasonable conversation.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things that you say in a lot of different ways, very wisely, is that power and control don't work. They don't work as a parent. They don't work as a manager. But relationships. This is about building a relationship.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think that is true in any aspect of life where you're working with other people to build something, whether it's a family or a business. Or a family business. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I like to think about this concept of connection capital because I think it's just very, very concrete where if you think about your relationship, let's say, with your kid, as kind of having an emotional connection. Bank account. Right. Every single time you ask a kid to do something they don't inherently want to do, you are withdrawing, Right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And by the way, we have to ask our kids to do things they don't want to do all the time. I mean, time to get up, get dressed, brush your teeth, come have breakfast. That's four things before 7:15am Right. And we shouldn't feel bad about that. That's just moving the day along. But if you think about that as withdrawing from the bank, it makes you think, okay, well, if I'm a pretty big withdrawer, I better be an even bigger depositor. Right. And the deposits in are all the different things we do to really connect to our kid, which is kind of a collection of moments where our kids feel seen, where they feel heard by us, where they feel like they have the rarest commodity of 2026, our full undivided attention. And those moments, I should say, that are really connection and relationship building. I think as time goes on and the world gets so fast, feel very slow. They feel very low stim. So, Dr. Becky, you're saying I should just sit there at the kitchen table while my son after school has a snack and not pepper him with questions and just kind of wait for him to talk? And it's by the way, I hear myself say that. It almost gives me a panic attack. It's so hard. Right. But being fully present, listening.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Not fixing things, saying things like, oh, I'm so glad you're telling me that. Oh, I'm so happy to spend this time with you. Tell me more. Those are major deposits. And at the end of the day, the effectiveness of your parenting intervention, the thing you say, the request, it's not just about how you say something in the moment. How you say something is then Multiplied by how full or empty that account is. And if the account's at a zero, anything times zero is zero is zero,

[B]

you're overdrawing on that account.

[A]

You are. Yeah.

[B]

The other thing that is so wise about your book is you talk about these moments. You're not saying, put your phone away and shut your computer for half the day. It's like it doesn't take that long to eat a snack, you know? And so much of radical candor is about these impromptu two minute conversations. They are real human conversations, but most human conversations are actually chats. They're like two minutes or less.

[A]

I love that you said that because, you know, we kind of also know there's certain moments in a parent and kid's day that have an outsize impact. And so the first couple minutes you see your kid in the morning, right? And I'll go over that. The first couple of minutes you have a reunion with them after daycare, after school, after soccer practice, because you don't see them all day. And the last couple minutes before they go to bed, right? And I think there's something very practical and helpful about that because, by the way, I have a feeling you have a lot of overachievers listening. Overachievers. This is for you. Do not pick all three moments. You're like, great, I'm gonna crush all three. No, no, no.

[B]

And it's not just one.

[A]

I'm not. Right? I'm not saying that cuz I don't believe in you. I'm saying that because I do believe in you. Right? So let's gain some momentum. Start with one moment. Because I realized this in my own house. I was like, yeah, the first moment I see my kid, I'm pretty sure that's a good moment. And I realized the first moment was me in the kitchen yelling something like, you're already late. Come, you have to do everything around here. And I was like, oh, like, that's how I'm starting my new relationship with my kid. Like, can I imagine? The first thing my husband said to me was that. And then he got mad at me later for being in a bad mood. I'm like, you had a part in that. Like, right? And so can you make the first thing you say to your kid eye contact, not yelling across the house, I'm so happy to see you today. I'm so lucky you're my kid. And parents always say, but you think my kid's gonna say something nice back? No, I think you have a normal kid and your kid will roll Their eyes, that's fine. Who cares? Let them roll their eyes. It still matters. Or can I say to myself, I'm gonna put my phone away and I'm gonna do the five minute bedtime routine without bringing my phone in the room. I really am. And I'm just gonna sit on the bed and I'm gonna remind myself, my kid's gonna ask for water 13 times. It's just kind of part of his arc right now. And I'm gonna take a deep breath, but that's a 15 minute period that I'm gonna crush. Right. You pick the moment. But, yeah, those moments, it's not all the time. It's really kind of zoning in on high impact moments.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think these moments of connection are how relationships form. And it's. They're not. They're. They're fleeting moments, and you want to have more good ones than bad ones. Like, that's. You're not.

[A]

You're.

[B]

You're never gonna say. You're never gonna have a bad. I mean, you can say that, but you will have bad moments. Yeah, but the goal is more good, More good than bad.

[A]

And I think just to add, we all have those bad moments as a parent, okay? Like, anyone who says, I don't yell at my kids, I've never said something, you're a liar. Like, you're a liar. We're not going to be friends because you're lying. Okay? I just don't believe you. We all have those moments. And so I think, yes, we want to have more of the good moments. But I always like to tell parents we can have maybe our best moment of the day after our worst moment. Because after you yell, if you can kind of collect yourself and remind yourself you're not a monster. Your whole relationship with your kid was not defined by the moment you yelled at them for being ungrateful about a gift. It was not. That was just also a short period of time. But what is true is if you let that moment sit and just tell yourself the story of being a bad parent, it is gonna feel tough between you and your kid for a while. Maybe the rest of the night if you repair. Hey. I'm so sorry I yelled at you. That was not okay. I'm sure that felt scary. Look, later, maybe tomorrow we could talk about how to kind of receive a gift in a kind way. But that's not even an excuse. It just wasn't okay for me to yell at you the way I did. And I'm sorry. And to know that you're modeling accountability and repair things that we all want our kids to have when they get older. That wouldn't even be possible if I didn't mess up. And so sometimes our best moments are because of our hard, bad moments. Yes.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Because the repair can actually do more good. It repairs it. Like, it doesn't. It makes it better. It's like, what's that? Japanese.

[A]

Japanese worm of gold.

[B]

With the gold? Yes. I can't remember, but that's what repair can feel like.

[A]

That's exactly right. And, you know, it's interesting because when I talk to parents about the traits they want in their kids, I wouldn't say explicitly, a parent always says, I want my kid to be able to apologize, even though I think we'd all say, yeah, that matters a lot. But accountability is high. I think it's like a word I want my kids to be accountable. When is my kid going to be accountable for their behavior? And, you know, one of the things I say to parents kind of directly is, again, like with love, tell me how you model accountability when you show up in a way you're not proud of with your kid. Just talk to me about it. Right. And how can I expect my kid to be accountable for their bad behavior if I'm not accountable for my own? It's just. It can't happen. And so to know, as a parent, I'm actually helping my kid be accountable for all I know, for someone listening, they would think I'm probably the first adult in my whole lineage who's ever apologized to a kid. That's really generation changing and cycle breaking. That's amazing. That's huge.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. You're doing important work raising the next generation and improving humanity. Really.

[A]

I mean, how many adult issues at work, politics would be better if people were saying, you know what, I'm sorry about that. That got a little extreme. I'm sorry. Let me dial that back a couple notches.

[B]

Yeah. I think also the thing about these bad parenting moments is that we carry with us so much guilt. I'll share a really bad parenting moment and how my career actually helped me overcome it, because I feel like there's this notion that there's this work life balance and every time you're working, you're hurting your children. And that's just not true in my experience. So this happened. My kids are 17 now, but back when they were in preschool, they were, I don't know, three or four. And I had picked them up at nursery school and I was taking them home and I had a meeting as soon as I got home. So I was already a little bit, you know, on time crunch, little stressed. And they started fighting in the, in the backseat, like, I don't know, throwing things at each other and yelling. I kept saying, stop, stop. And finally I was like, rage over. And I pulled off the road, I pulled into a parking lot, and I said, I am so angry. It's not safe for me to drive. I got out of the car and I walked around the car three times, and I got back in and their eyes were like saucers. They're like, oh, my gosh, she lost it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I got home and I felt so. I was overwhelmed with parental guilt. I had this meeting I knew I needed to repair, but I didn't have time to repair. Anyway, I got on the call, but I got on the call in a public space so they could come. And I was talking and I was back. Like, I was, you know, the professional giving good advice. And each kid sat on either side of me and you could just feel their bodies relax. They're like, oh, thank God, work mom is back. And for me, at least as a parent, it was so important to have this realm where, where the, the rules of engagement were a little easier than they were. It's really hard to be a parent of a three year old. Like, incredibly emotional. I. I can't think of anything harder.

[A]

You know what's interesting anyway, it makes me think that the work environment kind of acted as a container for you. It kind of helped pull it back in. And then my guess is you could transfer that back to home.

[B]

Yes. Yeah, exactly. That is what it did for me. And, and so for me, I mean, everybody parents differently, like. But I think if I had been, if I had worked, if I had not worked at all, I would. It would have been very. I don't know where I would have found that container. It was very useful. The container was very helpful to my parents.

[A]

Yeah, I totally, totally hear that. And look, just to build on that, right. First, I would actually say, in your situation, Kim, you modeled something like extremely emotionally mature to be able to say, I am so angry that I'm not able to perform certain responsibilities safely. And so I'm going to make a decision so I don't have to perform that responsibility. Yeah, I mean, I just think, right. In our marriages, we would all do better if you were able to say, hey, I'm getting to the point where I'm not gonna be able to speak to you respectfully. So I'm gonna Take a time out myself. Like that would be good or Right. And I think that's. That's such a good example though of had those moments can be the most teachable moments and the most connecting moments. So I just want to model, let's say I calm down. Let's say I've said some version of look, I think that scared you. I got to the point I use a loud voice, you know, and I'm sorry. And you know what I was thinking about? Do you ever feel so angry that it's almost hard to hear? Do you ever feel so angry that your body can't really make the best decisions? Right. Because that happens to all people. Right? Or let's say you had a situation where your kid just hit someone on the playground and you're working through it with them. You know what, it's interesting what happened to me in the car, which again, I'm gonna work on managing those feelings earlier. It kind of reminds me because my anger got so loud that it kind of burst out of my body. I think that's what happened to you when Kaylee was using your shovel in the sandbox and you ended up hitting her. And so both of us together, let's work on noticing our frustration and anger earlier and taking a deep breath then we're on the same team. Like how many of us would work through so many of our struggles more easily if someone kind of dropped down and leveled with us? And sometimes if our kids just see us as perfect all the time. It's really hard to learn from someone who's perfect, who's kind of impossible to.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's so wise. Your book made me reassured that I hadn't done such a terrible. I remember it's. But it's always a bad feeling. It's really hard not to get, I think sometimes emotions with other people, whether at work or at home, we're like that. What's the Tacoma State Bridge? You know, the one that, that where the frequency resonated thing started. I feel like that happens with us in conversations. And your book is full of good advice about how not to resonate with someone else's negative emotions.

[A]

Well, I think one of the things that happens right, is that our kids emotions have such a big impact on us because unconsciously we often use our kids behavior as kind of the latest barometer of whether we're doing our good job. It's like our parent report card. And most parents I know in the list of things they care about in terms of their identities, the Parent is pretty high up there. Like, if they really did feel like everyone was like, you're a bad parent, that would, that would crush them. They want to feel like a good parent. And without realizing, we use our kids behavior as a report card. And so my kids putting a tantrum in the grocery store, the people around

[B]

me are judging me, and then I'm everyone.

[A]

Exactly. And so I think, and this is as true at work as with parenting, but I always tell people like, we think, think we respond to other people's behaviors. We don't. We respond to the story, we tell ourselves about their behaviors. And without realizing it, my kids tantrum in a public space. The story I'm telling myself is everyone's judging me and everyone thinks I'm a horrible parent. And honestly, this doesn't happen to my friend. And so I probably am doing something wrong. The reason that I want to shut down my kids tantrum in that moment in such a hardcore way, it's not even the tantrum. It's, I need to shut down the pain from that story. Right. I need my kids tantrum to go off because it's like an off valve so I can feel good about myself again. Now, the powerful thing about that is we can change the story if my story instead is I have a good kid who's overwhelmed in the grocery store. And I always think, if we're gonna make up other people's thoughts about us, we might as well make those thoughts work for us. So I always say, those people are cheering me on. They're like, becky, I dealt with tantrums in grocery stores for so many years. You do, you, you're a good parent. We see that. And all of a sudden I feel like I have an aisle full of

[B]

people who support me who have empathy with the situation that you're in.

[A]

Totally. Totally.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that's the basic of cognitive behavioral therapy. Right. There's the activating event, your kid's tantrum or your boss's tantrum or your peer's tantrum. Then there's your belief about what's happening, and then there's the consequence. Then there's your behavior. And if you have a bad belief, you're probably going to have a bad reaction. Yeah. So one of the things I want to ask you about, I mean, for me, feedback is the atomic building block of collaboration. It's the basis of my marriage, it's the basis of my relationship with my children, and it's the basis of my relationship with people at work. And by feedback, I Mean both praise and criticism, both of which should care. Show that you care and challenge. But you. You had a really good line in your book about choosing compassion over criticism. So one question I have for you is, can there be compassionate criticism? What's the. And I know maybe criticism is not the right word for me to have chosen, so talk to me a little bit about the problems with criticism and maybe the opportunities of. Of sharing different points of view.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I guess my beliefs tend to fall between the extremes. So it's not like I think we should avoid criticism all the time. Compassion only. I don't know what that really looks like in real life. Right. But I think at the end of the day, as parents, we're in the business, in some ways, of trying to help our kids develop the skills they need across a variety of experiences in childhood, because childhood wires our body, which means it has undue influence on all the years ahead. Kind of greatest privilege, emotionally, at least you can give a child, is being able to cope with the things that come their way. Right. And so those aren't things that are gifted at age 18. Right. Those are. Those are things that you develop through experience in the relationship with your parents. Right. So I think there's a couple things, and there's a couple dualities. Right. I believe at good inside, all feelings are okay and all behaviors are not okay.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

We have to set boundaries around behaviors. Right. People. It's not like, oh, I believe anger is actually a really healthy emotion. I think it's one of the most misunderstood emotions. Especially us women. Especially for women.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Distance ourselves from it. But just because I think it's okay for my kid to be angry, it doesn't mean I think, oh, hit your sister. So beautiful. You're so angry.

[B]

Obviously not.

[A]

That'd be psychotic, you know? No, but then we. I think because these dualities are hard, we're not sure how to intervene with both. So I would say a good inside. And maybe this is a different version than criticism. We belong. We believe in firm parental boundaries. And most parents aren't using boundaries. Right. They think they're setting boundaries when they're really making requests. Saying to a kid, stop hitting. Who is showing you that they cannot stop hitting is not a great leadership strategy. I won't let you hit. And actually taking my kid away from his sister, I won't let you hit. That's step one. That is kind of my version of criticism. It's just this behavior isn't okay. And I also kind of know you're developmentally not capable of stopping it. And I'm the authority in the room. So lovingly, I am taking you away. And then I might say something to my kid, like, you're a good kid. Having a hard time. It's hard to wait your turn. I know you wish you could have all the green crayons yourself. Whatever was going on while stopping my kid from going back and lunging toward his sister. Like I'd actually go. Not gonna.

[B]

No, no.

[A]

Holding a boundary around the behavior. But I'm still seeing my kid as a good kid with compassion. And I think the essence of this, Kim, is I really believe we feel kind of someone's intention or mindset behind their intervention. Because if, let's say, my kid again throws something across the room. Right. This is a good one. Throws blocks across the room. And I think I'm gonna take away their blocks. I want you to hear the difference. What is wrong with you? I'm taking away your blocks. You are showing me you can't use blocks responsibly versus this. Hey, sweetie. I'm putting the blocks away. No more blocks. Here's the thing. My number one job is to keep you safe. I take that job very seriously. And you're showing me you can't play safely. And honestly, I'm gonna make a decision for your safety rather than you being happy with me any minute of the day. Cause I love you. Like, I'm still taking away the blocks. Okay. Yes. But in the first version, my kid is my enemy. They feel like a bad kid based on how I'm talking to them. And it's kind of like we're on opposite teams. In the second intervention, I'm actually taking the blocks away because I am on my kid's team, because I believe my kid's a good kid, and I don't want them to be in a situation where they keep experiencing themselves as out of control. So same intervention with some, quote, criticism, or boundary setting, but very, very different impact.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And you're not judging the child. You're just saying, this is not okay. You're a good child, but this is not okay. You're a good child. And two things can be true.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

I love that you said that two things are true in your book. Yes. So there are two things that are true.

[A]

I think there's a lot of two things are true. Number one. Right? My job is to set boundaries. Your job is to have feelings about them.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And my good boundaries don't mean you're gonna be calm and Your upset feelings don't mean I made a mistake about my boundaries. Like, two things can be true. I can set boundaries, you can be upset, and actually, when that's happening, we're probably both doing our jobs. Those can be true. Another thing that could be true is I can understand that my kid has a lot of jealousy toward his brother. And you better bet I will not allow you to make fun of your brother and tease him in front of me because of that. No, I'm gonna say, whoa, that is not okay. Both of you to your rooms. You're actually not in trouble. I have two good kids and this way of teasing and name calling is not safe. And so we're gonna get to the bottom of it together. And then if I go to my kid who has all that jealousy, yeah, I might say, look, I get it. It's hard to have a brother who's on the A team at soccer and is the star student. I get it. I would find that annoying too. You're not crazy. And you and I have to figure out how to talk about that together. And I will do a better job listening because it absolutely cannot come out this way because that's not not only good for him, it's actually not good for you. I know you don't really like seeing yourself in that way either. And I'm gonna help protect both of you.

[B]

So good.

[A]

So good.

[B]

I love it. I love it. I think also two good things too. Positive like care personally and challenge directly, can also be true at the same time. You don't have to choose between being a pushover and being a jerk. Like, you can be neither one of those things.

[A]

That's exactly right. And I think, you know, a line that I've been sharing a lot with families. Right. That I think is powerful when said from the right place is I know you can do better. Okay. Like, we had a really tough goodbye. It's been hard to get out of the house in the morning. And I'm talking to you about it because I think we can brainstorm together. But also, I know you can do better than this. I know it's hard to leave the house and go to camp. I know it's hard to leave the house and go to your aunt's house, whatever it is. And I know you cannot wanna do something and still handle the situation in a more respective way. So let's get to the bottom of that together. And yeah, I think about how awful it is as a kid to be acting out a lot and to have no one in Your life. Who really believes you can do better? I'm like, I have such a horrible feeling. It's horrible. And so I think there's something. And again, if I said, I know you can do better, this is ridiculous. I'm taking away your dessert. I don't want someone to be like, I did the Dr. Becky thing. And I'm like, well, not really. You know, it was all kind of undone by the tone and the threat, you know, but by the way, I think at work, too, you have a hard project, you kind of know what bombs. And if your manager is like, look, that didn't go great. And you're here because I believe in you and because I know you can do better. So let's figure out how that happened so that we can ensure it goes differently the next time I'm on your team. Kind of same thing.

[B]

Yes. I love it. I love it. So one of the things that I think about a lot and I would love to get your reaction to is that I think on the challenge directly of Radical Candor, one of the things that makes it so hard for me and a lot of other people say this resonates for them as well, is, you know, almost from the time we learn to speak, we have a parent who says, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. And this makes it really hard to challenge directly. So talk to me about, you know, and I have. I used to. When I was developing, when I was writing Radical Candor, I wrote that, you know, one of the things that makes it really hard is if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. And then my. My kids pointed out, you know, something rude of somebody's personal appearance in. In the grocery store or wherever we were. And I found those words coming out of my mouth as a parent, so. So talk to me. Talk to me about those words.

[A]

You know? Well, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. I guess my first question to someone who was told that growing up, and, like, I understand this is a common phrase, is, what does nice mean?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

What does nice mean? Does nice mean make someone else feel good? If you don't have anything to say that makes someone feel good, don't say anything. Well, I don't know about that, because we can't always make someone feel good. Is nice meaning you're sure that it doesn't cause any discomfort in the other person? Oh, well, anytime you want something, it almost Always inconveniences someone else. So is that really what it means? Does nice. You know, and so I don't know the right answer there, but I think it's a really interesting question. What does that mean? Like, let's not take for granted that we know what that means. And I'm going to share a story, actually. And so the other day, I was with a friend of mine. We were with friends and our kids, and I've been kind of part of this kind of kids journey for a while. This is what I would call a deeply feeling kid has had very big emotions, big emotional experience, explosions. But I think kids who are deeply feeling kids have this incredible emotional kind of store that if you help them harness, they become, you know, changers. And anyway, we went to Starbucks. We got all the girls there, whatever their drink is that they like in their tween years, okay? And this girl goes, I want, you know, she really assert herself. I'd like this thing with less ice and extra strawberries. I heard her, very respectful. And she gets it. She comes back to the moms and she just goes, oh, forget extra strawberries. And I love this. She goes, which mom we paid for, they have less strawberries than usual. Okay. This was like the situation, right? And kind of no one said anything. And she just goes, I'm gonna go back and say something. She's 11 years old. I was like, look at this. Like, how many of us just take what?

[B]

Right, yeah.

[A]

So this is what I heard her say, right? She actually turns back to us, she goes, you know what? The woman's making a drink. I'm gonna wait till she's done. Oh, so respectful, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Woman came back and she said, hey, excuse me, my sticker here, it says extra strawberries. And I think I actually have less strawberries than usual. And the woman just at the counter goes, oh, I think you're right. Okay. I was like this.

[B]

That was a triumphant moment.

[A]

This girl gave us a master class. Okay. Because one of the things I always say to adults in my private practice, especially when working with couples, and it goes back to the phrase, is there are many ways to say things that are true. Let's just be honest. I can say to my husband if I'm frustrated, you never come home and help with the kids. Or I can say, hey, I'm feeling overwhelmed at night and I'd love at least two nights that you come home by 5:30. I think we both know which is going to be more effective. Okay? So there's many ways to say Things that are true. And I think the ultimate challenge in human relationships is trying to communicate in a way that feels as true for you as it does respectful of someone else. Yes. Very hard. This girl at Starbucks, my friend's daughter, perfectly struck that balance. Okay. And so when I think about. She did, but it's still inconvenience. The other person. That person had to do one more thing. Or when you return the coffee, because they make it right. It does inconvenience someone. And I think it goes back to. It's actually not about being nice. Maybe it is. And this goes back to your book. Can I say something that feels as true for me? It does. Respectful of the other person. And now that nebulous nice isn't even really part of the equation.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I think the word respectful. That's why my next book is Radical Respect. Because. Because that is. That's what I tried actually to say to my kids. Instead of, if you don't have anything nice to say, say that again, but try to say it more respectfully of the other.

[A]

That's exactly right. I know you can do better. There's something really true here. Like when my kid says, I hate you. Okay, you're mad. That is very real. And by the way, I want to help you work through it, but I hate you isn't going to be a way that I can do that with you. So tell me what's going on. Right. And that is how we teach our kids to get all the wisdom from their feelings, but then to actually use it to communicate with people in a way that is going to preserve a relationship. And by the way, is actually going to increase the likelihood of you getting what you want because you're not pissing them off along the way.

[B]

Yeah. And I think also, like, when my kids would say that, I would say, look, you can be mad at me and still love me. You know, that's possible. Two things can be true.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And two emotions can be true. So I think there's. So that's one. So we just took care of one big radical candor problem was this. If you don't have. Like, let's not silence ourselves and let's not allow ourselves to be silenced by that. Whatever that inner voice on our shoulder is. The other part, I think happens maybe when we're a little bit older, we get our first job and somebody says, be professional. And I think an awful lot of us translate that to mean as, leave your emotions at home. Leave your humanity at home. And I think that people really are. People are afraid of each other's emotions. And so part of learning how to show that we care personally is learning how to have our own emotions and not depress them, them at work, but also learning how to accept the emotions of others. And I think you have so much wisdom on this feeling and allowing others to feel in, in your work.

[A]

You know, I feel. I sometimes feel bad for emotions. Like, I feel like emotions are in our body, you know, like, we've gotten a bad rap, guys. Like, we've got to change our pr, our PR rep. Because emotions at the end of the day are sensations and they're information. Emotions are information our body gives to us about what we care about, what we value, what we want, what we need if we feel like we're under threat. Now, they're not always like 100% true in the world. They're, you know, have a range, you know, but at their core, they're trying to tell us something. And often what we do is we try to shut them down. Well, guess what happens when we shut down and we're trying to get a message across. All of us will then express that message in an even more heightened form because we're desperate to be believed. And then if we're shut down again or, okay, I'm gonna up the ante again, and we all will say, like, these big, huge things that are so far from being accurate because the original kernel was so shut down. And I think that's a really profound thing to think about because there's a couple things about that. Number one, if my emotions are information, then it would do me well to listen to them. I'm not going to do exactly what they tell me because there's always a translation that's needed. But I think about a CEO of a company saying, all right, guys, give me all the information you're getting from the market, but only the good ones. There's good stuff and only bring me the good if it's uncomfortable or bad. Don't want those yet. To me, the best managers, first of all, of course, you want to, you know, hear the good and celebrate the good and do more of the good. But they can hear kind of information that's not inherently bad usually just mean it's uncomfortable. Right? Oh, okay, so the world is changing, so our traffic has changed, whatever it is, you know, okay, well, what might be going on, and let's really think through this together, and let's also use that type of data to make different decisions. That's what our Emotions are. If we don't let ourselves feel angry, first of all, it's going to end up exploding in an inopportune way. But I'm kind of missing something that I might need in the workplace to do better if I don't let myself feel sad. You know, when you blunt one emotions, you blunt them all. And so when you think about emotions as information, and I think we all would say information and knowledge are power, we're really hamstringing kind of so many of the things that really give us that power. Now, I think the issue and why emotions have gotten a bad rap is I always say we're born with all the feelings and none of the skills to manage our feelings. And feelings and emotions that overpower skills explode out of us in a whole range of behavior. But that's not really the emotions fault. It's kind of the fault that we haven't built up the skills and we can build up skills. And so I think the question isn't, are emotions the problem? It's what kind of skills can I build to learn how to listen and kind of manage my emotions without being completely taken over by them? And it's never too late to kind of learn and practice some of those skills.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think listening to your own emotions rather than repressing them is. Is like where it all starts. And then being curious, instead of curious about someone else's emotions, you tell this great story in the book about the cereal box and getting curious, not furious. Can you share that? A hypothetical situation where there's no chicken in the refrigerator, so you're going to

[A]

have Cheerios, and oh, my goodness, Kim, you're going to give me more detail about the story. I'm like, sydney, I haven't read my own book. Tell me it and then I'll get right in there. Or you tell the story, I'll latch onto it. Yeah.

[B]

So you're sort of imagining yourself in a situation analogous to what your kids are in. So you're. And maybe it's not you, maybe it's some theoretical other person, but you get to the end of the day, you're planning on having chicken for dinner. You open the fridge, there's no chicken in there. So you decide, ah, I'm gonna have. It's gonna be Cheerios for dinner tonight. We've all been there. And you get out the cereal box, and then your spouse comes home and says, why are we having Cheerios? And you throw this cereal box at your spouse. And your spouse could have one of Two responses. Either, you know, why didn't you go to the grocery store, you lazy, disorganized person, or your spouse could say, gosh, you've been through a lot today. Could get. Your spouse could. And if your spouse gets curious, not furious, it's all going to end fine. If your spouse like doubles because you already feel bad that you didn't make it to the grocery store to get the chicken.

[A]

That's right. And I think we have this weird thing that we've accepted as fact. We have this weird phrase like, if I don't punish my kids behavior, I am reinforcing that behavior. It's kind of another thing that we just take as fact instead of saying, well, like, is that true? Let's take it back to me, right? Let's say I lost my wallet and I had to walk home in the rain because I didn't, you know, have any money for a car, taxi at that point. And my phone's not, you know, the charge is dead. And I had a day where my boss said I didn't do a good job. And then I'm walking home and I see three of my best friends at dinner and they didn't invite me. And then I get home and I don't even have chicken in the fridge, right? And then my husband is like, hey, did you get chicken? And did you pick up my prescription on the way? And by the way, I want to tell you about my great day at work. And I'm like, stop it. Right? And let's say my husband has this amazing response. Hold on. Whoa. That's a really intense tone, Becky. But also something must have happened in your day for you to have that response. And I actually care more about whatever's going on for you underneath and this particular tone. So we could talk about the tone later. Just, I'm here. What, what happened today? I just want to know if someone hearing that Kim goes, oh, my God, Becky, you are basically telling your husband that you're gonna walk all over him. Basically, your husband just reinforced your yelling behavior. Because if your husband doesn't say, becky, go to your room and I'm not talking to you for a day, he has to say that. Okay, now look, if this is pervasive, okay, that's one thing, but we all have these moments. Plus, I'm an adult and we're talking about like a three year old who we're laying down the law with being curious about what's going on underneath, allowing a moment to just be a moment and not the whole truth. And trying to actually understand the source of an issue does not reinforce bad behavior. I just think it's such a nasty view of humans that I just won't buy into that. Doesn't mean we don't need boundaries. My husband might need to say to me the next day, look, you've now had a series of these moments that night. And Becky, I know you can do better. And I have to bring myself into this equation. I don't like being talked to that way. And if this continues and if you're not working on things, of course, but also, these are two adults we're talking about. Someone who's capable in me, in my 40s of doing a little bit better. And so.

[B]

And a three year old, Forget it.

[A]

That's right. And so I think when we think about it that way, you know, the whole idea of reinforcing bad behavior, we at least can put a question mark on it. Like, maybe that's not true. Maybe that's just been something handed down through the generations.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah. I love that it's so important. What I say to people is like, I really, I really believe, as do you, that bullying needs to be stopped. However, if someone yells at me, what I try to do is if I'm thinking about the radical, I'm trying to think about how can I move up on care personally in this moment? This person is yelling at me. How the only way to move up on care personally when someone is yelling at me because my instinct is to yell back and be obnoxious, or if I feel afraid to go talk badly about that person behind their back, neither of which are going to solve the problem. I try to get curious, not furious. That's what I try to do. I can't be at the tippy top of care personally if somebody's yelling at me, but I can at least get above the line.

[A]

And I think another thing that always helps parents understand this with their kids is, you know, let's say you have a kid who's a basketball player, they've learned the basics, they know how to dribble, they make layups. And now they've had the majority of their season. You're like, this kid is turnover after turnover, missing basic layups, missing their free throws. And you're watching on the stands and you see their coach, and you see the coach say, serious, Bobby, what is wrong with you? Something. Do you see anyone else missing these layups? Seriously, something's wrong with you. And go to your room and if you don't start making layups, Honestly, I'm gonna bench you for the rest of the season. Like, I just want to know the parent who goes, that boss is really inspiring change.

[B]

Like, yeah, that coach is right.

[A]

That. Sorry, that. Right. That coach is really inspiring change. And. And if you think about the opposite, let's say you hear that coach say, by the way, you might have to take the kid out of the game, because that's kind of like us pulling a kid to the side and saying, I'm not gonna let you hit. Hey, I'm pulling you out. But I just want to tell you something. I want you to come 15 minutes early to practice every day this week. I believe in you. You're a good player. Everyone can have a hard stage. We're gonna get back to the basics. We're gonna brainstorm what's happening in your layup. And I feel like that extra time together is gonna really help Kim. Like, what parent goes, that coach is reinforcing bad basketball behavior.

[B]

Extra time.

[A]

Extra time with the kid. You're basically saying, your kid's gonna get rewarded for all these turnovers. I mean, no one would ever say that. You know what they'd say? That's a great coach. And I think they'd also say, how else would my kid get better if not for that type of approach? And so when a kid is at a hitting stage and you say, look, before your next playdate, we're going to practice situations, and let's have a little more time together. You're not reinforcing behavior. You're setting the foundation for a change in behavior. Just like in other areas with our kids.

[B]

Yes. You're leading by example instead of getting, you know, I mean, doing the. You're not hitting them back, but you're punishing them, which is not. You want good. You know, you want to model good behavior, not model bad behavior. At the same time, you are very wise in the book about preventing bullying between kids. So I would love to talk about this because I think this is also incredibly relevant to the workplace right now. So what is. If you're the authority in the room, what is your job? How do you prevent bullying, and why is it so happen? Why is it so important?

[A]

Yeah, and look, this is important to differentiate. Kids say not nice things to each other. Adults say not nice things to each other. We can't bubble wrap our kids. We don't want to. Right. I always think we want to prepare our kids for the road. Not the road for our kids. Unless we want to pave roads for them. The rest of Their life, which we

[B]

did not, feels exhausting.

[A]

I do not. Exactly. Okay, so let's just. We got to differentiate. And it's a tricky thing to differentiate sometimes. Now, at the same time, I think my number one job is to keep my kids safe. Now, safe doesn't mean happy, and safe doesn't mean comfortable. Okay, that is definitely. I do not want to keep my kid comfortable because that's the surest best way. They'll be anxious and feel unsafe for the rest of their lives when they're in the real world. Right. But if I think about a house where, again, there's name calling, there's really nasty threatening between siblings, I think too many times we're like, oh, boys will be boys, or kids act this way. I think that's a safety issue. Right. Like, I shouldn't have to, as a kid, feel kind of unsafe in my own family home. And so if I remind myself my number one job is to keep my kids safe, it's not safe for the kid being bullied. But I would also say, Kim, I don't think it's safe for the kid who is doing the bullying of themselves as a bully. That's right. They. I take on that identity. And kids don't. Even if they say, oh, this is fun, they don't want to act that way. It's out of control for them. I really have seen that so many times. And so I need to keep both kids safe, which often means I need to intervene earlier. Because what often happens is, oh, my God, I hope my kids get along today when they're playing in the playroom. And, you know, I'm laughing because we do this as parents. And then if anyone asked us the truth, they're like, when's the last time your kids got along? And the play. Well, never. Like, it's not, like, a great statistical bet, you know? And then we let our be. I feel like we let ourselves be surprised by perfectly predictable moments. And then when those moments happen, they're at a 10 out of 10, because we were crossing our fingers. The best time to intervene is when things are at a 2 out of 10, a 5 out of 10. Right. So I may say, look, when you guys are in the playroom, I'm sitting there, because the truth is, it's not safe for words to be exchanged in this way. And my job is to keep you both safe because you're both good kids, and it's just tricky to get along. And so even in kind of the first instance, when I sense some harshness that's the moment I say, oh, we're gonna bring the temperature down, and we're gonna do that together. And you're gonna find it annoying. And I'm thinking in my head, kim, and I'm gonna find it annoying because I'd rather be in the other room doing whatever I was doing. Okay, but that's what we're gonna do because I believe in you. And I know we have to intervene earlier before things heat up and before I get so frustrated. So that's what playtime's gonna look like today.

[B]

I love that it's so important. Like, when my kids were little, my son was bigger than my daughter, and I found that I had to. I had to treat what I called verbal violence in the same way as physical violence. Because if I didn't, my daughter, who is incredibly empathetic, which is a wonderful trait, which can be used for evil as well as for good, because she knew just what buttons to push. And eventually he'd haul off and hit her. But then they both felt bad, you know, and so you gotta treat them both the same. Yeah.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I love it. Okay. I want to thank you. There's so much more to say, but, Dr. Becky, so much wisdom. So much wisdom, not only for raising children, but for building a successful career. And I think we do learn a lot from our kids about how to have a better career and from our careers about how to be a better parent. So thank you.

[A]

Thank you, Kim. The Radical Candor podcast is based on the book Radical Be a kick ass boss without losing your humanity by Kim Scott. The Radical Candor Podcast theme music was composed by Cliff Goldmacher. Follow us on LinkedIn Radical Candor the company and visit [e-mail].