How to Be Remarkable: Growth, Grit, and Grace with Guy Kawasaki 7 | 40

Summary

Radical Candor Podcast: "How to Be Remarkable: Growth, Grit, and Grace with Guy Kawasaki"

Podcast Hosts: Kim Scott, Jason Rosoff, Amy Sandler
Guest: Guy Kawasaki (author, chief evangelist at Canva, host of "Remarkable People" podcast)
Episode: 7 | 40
Release Date: November 5, 2025

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Episode Overview

This lively and insightful episode features Guy Kawasaki, renowned marketer, author, and podcast host, discussing his new book, Think Remarkable: Nine Paths to Transform Your Life and Make a Difference. Guy joins Kim Scott and Amy Sandler to break down how anyone can be remarkable through growth, grit, and grace—no matter their stage in life or work.

Through candid stories, memorable quotes, and practical advice, the conversation explores:

• How “being remarkable” is accessible to everyone, not just the famous or wealthy
• The core principles of growth, grit, and grace
• The role of environment and opportunity in personal success
• The value of saying “yes,” handling imposter syndrome, and practicing humility and generosity
• Tips for managers and parents on supporting those around them
• Navigating challenging conversations and connecting across difference

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining “Remarkable” & The Power of Saying Yes

(07:59–10:00)

• Remarkable people are those who make a positive difference, not just the rich or famous.
• “My podcast is called Remarkable People—not rich people, not famous people, not elite people.” — Guy (08:03)
• You don’t need to be Jane Goodall or Steve Jobs; “you can fix one person, one team, one classroom... fix your own life and be remarkable.”
• Emphasizes the open-endedness and possibility created by defaulting to “yes”.
• “If you say no, that’s the end of the line. But if you say yes, you just never know.” — Guy (07:59)

2. Origins: Growth, Grit, and Grace

(06:53–08:00, 19:25–20:34)

• Book and podcast structure: Growth (inspired by Carol Dweck and the growth mindset), Grit (homage to Angela Duckworth), Grace (service, reciprocity, humility).
• The importance of not just internal growth, but being in an environment that enables growth.
• “If you have a growth mindset inside a fixed mindset organization, you’re gonna suck.” — Guy (20:10)

3. The Power of Environment and Serendipity

(14:17–18:25)

• Personal anecdotes about how unexpected connections (e.g. a 6th-grade teacher’s advice) and friendships (e.g. at Stanford) led to pivotal opportunities (like joining Apple).
• It’s “not important who you know, what’s truly important is who knows of you.” — Guy (17:33)
• Building environments and organizations that encourage connection and the pursuit of the stuff people love.

4. Growth Mindset + Organizational Mindset

(19:25–22:14)

• Growth mindset isn’t just internal; it must be mirrored by the organization.
• Hiring tip: Look beyond degrees—ask, “Does the candidate love what we do?”
• “Love conquers all… You gotta love the product. That goes a long, long way.” — Guy (21:09)

5. Passion, Interests, and Ikigai

(23:19–25:32)

• Passion is often misunderstood and over-pressured in young people—interests should be tried and explored, passions emerge over time.
• “We set people up for failure because they think, ‘I’m supposed to find this passion and it’s supposed to be instant.’ Life does not work like that.” — Guy (24:02)
• Emphasizes “scratching itches” and collecting experiences rather than declaring a passion early.

6. Leadership & Parenting: Following Others’ Interests

(30:47–31:12)

• Great leadership often means getting genuinely interested in what your people (or children) are interested in, rather than the other way around.
• “A great way to be a leader is to get interested in what your people are interested in and go do it with them.” — Kim (30:58)

7. Grace: Dealing with Stereotypes and Everyday Disrespect

(32:18–39:59)

• Guy shares a story about being mistaken for a gardener, and his father’s advice to “take the high road” and use humor.
• Follow-up: Experiences are learning opportunities for others (“You should treat it as a learning opportunity for the other person.” — Advice from a Black activist Guy interviewed, 36:17).
• Kim tells her own story of being stereotyped at a tech event and reflects on the roles of power and how to respond with Radical Candor.

8. Connecting Across Difference: Asking “How,” Not “Why”

(40:01–44:41)

• Advice from Mark Laberton: Instead of asking people why they believe something (e.g. in politics or faith), ask how they came to believe it. This invites story, empathy, and understanding.
• “Don’t ask them why they believe it. Ask them how they came to believe that because that fosters an actual conversation and discourse.” — Guy (41:16)

9. Overcoming Imposter Syndrome

(49:29–53:23)

• Guy notes the prevalence of imposter syndrome amongst high-achieving women on his podcast—“Not one man said they had imposter syndrome.”
• Advice: Recognize it, remember that it’s common, consciously focus on positive accomplishments, and surround yourself with uplifting people.
• “If you had a choice between having imposter syndrome and having entitlement syndrome, pick imposter syndrome all day long.” — Guy (53:04)

10. Everyone is Remarkable at Something

(55:19–56:00)

• “I have come to believe that everybody you meet is better at something than you. Everybody.” — Guy (55:27)
• “Everybody’s great at something. Everybody’s remarkable, but nobody’s great at everything.” — Guy (56:00)

11. Decision-Making: Make the Decision Right

(56:00–58:13)

• Citing Harvard’s Ellen Langer: We waste time striving for the perfect decision, but “You cannot predict the future… Just make your decision, then make your decision right.”
• “A better attitude is you take your best shot and then you just make your decision right.” — Guy (57:04)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Serendipity and Saying Yes:
  • “Defaulting to yes will lead you to places you will never ever predict and never know.” — Guy (07:02)
• On Growth Environments:
  • “If you have a growth mindset in a growth mindset organization, you’ll do well. But if you have a growth mindset inside a fixed mindset organization, you’re gonna bang your head.” — Guy (20:10)
• On Humility:
  • “It’s not important who you know. What’s truly important is who knows of you, which is key difference.” — Guy (17:33)
• On Imposter Syndrome:
  • “You are not the center of the world.” — Guy (55:38)
  • “If you had a choice between imposter syndrome and entitlement syndrome, pick imposter syndrome all day long.” — Guy (53:04)
• On Making Decisions:
  • “People think if you make a decision careful enough, you’re going to make the right decision. A, you’re not going to make the right decision and B, it’s not going to be easy. So just figure out that whatever you decide, you make your decision right.” — Guy (57:04)
• On Remarkability:
  • “You can be the most amazing individual contributor for 20, 30, 40 years. What’s wrong with that?” — Guy (23:08)
• On Connection & Empathy:
  • “Ask them how they came to believe that because that fosters an actual conversation and discourse.” — Guy (41:16)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 07:59: Guy defines what “remarkable” means
• 14:17: The story of how he connected with Jane Goodall (TEDx, Apple, and making connections)
• 19:25: Growth mindset—Carol Dweck, organizational context
• 21:09: Hiring for passion, not just credentials
• 23:19: Interests vs. passions and embracing exploration
• 32:18: Stereotypes, humor, and lessons on taking the high road
• 40:01: Mark Laberton’s “ask how not why” advice for dialogue
• 49:29: Guy on imposter syndrome—women vs. men
• 56:00: Ellen Langer’s insight on decision-making

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Practical Takeaways

• Default to yes: Being open to opportunities—even unexpected or “small” ones—creates remarkable possibilities.
• Value the journey, not just the outcome: Growth and impact come from continual learning, new experiences, and environments that support experimentation.
• Lead with grace: Offer help, take the high road, approach mistakes as learning moments for all involved.
• Challenge stereotypes—including your own: Use moments of discomfort as opportunities for constructive conversation.
• Support, don’t superimpose in leadership: Show genuine interest in your team’s (or child’s) interests and let passions bloom through exploration.
• Curiosity bridges divides: Shift from debate (“why do you believe that?”) to storytelling (“how did you come to believe that?”).
• Combat imposter syndrome: Acknowledge it, name it, know you’re not alone, and focus on your strengths and merits.

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For Further Engagement

• Think Remarkable by Guy Kawasaki (find it wherever books are sold).
• Listen to the Remarkable People podcast.
• Subscribe to Guy’s Substack newsletter.

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Quote to Remember:
“Everybody’s great at something. Everybody’s remarkable, but nobody’s great at everything.” — Guy Kawasaki (56:00)

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Radical Candor Podcast:
Learn more and join the Radical Candor community at radicalcandor.com

Transcript

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[Amy Sandler]

You're about to make a trade. Which u do you listen to?

[Kim Scott]

Is it get optioning those options.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Or.

[Amy Sandler]

Let'S do a little research. Learn [e-mail] TradeSmart.

[Kim Scott]

Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Radical Candor Podcast. I'm Kim Scott.

[Amy Sandler]

I'm Amy Sandler, your host for the Radical Candor Podcast. And today we're. We are really excited to welcome Guy Kawasaki. Guy is co author with Madison Knysmore of the new book Think Remarkable Nine Paths to Transform youm Life and Make a Difference. Guy is the chief evangelist of Canva, host of the Remarkable People podcast, which recently featured the very own Kim Scott. Guy, you are the chief evangelist of Apple, trustee of the Wikimedia foundation. You've been a brand ambassador for Mercedes Benz, special assistant to the Motorola division of Google, author of, I want to say countless books, but I suspect there's a number you'll let us know now with. Think remarkable 16. And you have got a BA from Stanford University, an MBA from UCLA, as well as an honorary doctorate from Babson College. Guy, what was the honorary doctorate for? I'm curious.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Well, I gave their commencement address and I have helped their school a little bit, so they gave me an honorary doctorate.

[Amy Sandler]

Okay, that seems like a fair trade.

[Guy Kawasaki]

You cannot buy me, but you can rent me.

[Amy Sandler]

All right.

[Guy Kawasaki]

We're going to have a lot of candor in this.

[Kim Scott]

Okay.

[Amy Sandler]

We'll find out what the rates are to rent Guy Kawasaki. We'll see if we get there on this. Kim, you were just on the Remarkable People podcast. I don't know if you were renting your time or if you were there for the good conversation.

[Kim Scott]

I was giving. I was giving as Guy is giving us his time today.

[Amy Sandler]

How did you and Guy get connected?

[Kim Scott]

I think your team sent me a copy of your book, which I love. And that was how we got connected, right?

[Guy Kawasaki]

Well, no, I think for the rollout of your book, maybe your PR contacted me.

[Kim Scott]

Okay.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Right.

[Amy Sandler]

I heard that Angela Duckworth might have been involved, but that was just from the.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Angela Duckworth is involved in everything. Yes, she is.

[Kim Scott]

Yes. That was how we met. Is Angela introduced us. Amy, you know all.

[Amy Sandler]

Well, I just listened to the podcast recently, so it's fresh in my head.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Angela and a woman named Katie Milkman. Basically, whoever they say should be on my podcast gets an invite to my podcast. Our due diligence is if Katie or Angela says put them on, we put them on. That's it.

[Kim Scott]

That's what happened. So my people sent you my book and your people sent me your book. All of these things are true.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Well, you want to hear a great story about how I got Angela on my podcast?

[Kim Scott]

Yes, yes.

[Guy Kawasaki]

I, you know, see, when you have me as a guest, your podcast goes off the rails right away. I'm sure you have this list of questions. So I'm blowing through it.

[Kim Scott]

All right.

[Liberty Mutual Announcer]

Okay.

[Amy Sandler]

My first question was to say, what's the first question you would ask Guy Kawasaki since you've already hosted so many episodes? So I guess the first question is a story that goes off the rails.

[Kim Scott]

Okay, tell us.

[Guy Kawasaki]

So I'll tell you the story. So I have been trying to get Angela Duckworth for a long, long time. She never answers my email or anything. Right now I have this attitude of defaulting to yes. It's. It's kind of one of my best practices. So I kind of say yes to everybody when they want me on their podcast. So one day I'm on this podcast and I'm starting, and, you know, this is this period that we just went through of, you know, we're checking equipment and all that, and I say to the person, I'm the guest now. I'm not the podcast, I'm the guest. I say to the person, so tell me a little bit about yourself. She goes, oh, I'm 16 years old, I'm a high school student in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. And I'm saying to myself, guy, why did you say yes? I mean, it's like her mother, her father, and her cousins are listening to her podcast. Why are you doing this? Extremely bright woman. It was like over the Moon podcast or Once in a Blue Moon podcast or something like that. At the very end, she says, yeah, you know, I really been fortunate. I have people like you and Angela Duckworth. I said, you got Angela Duckworth? I said, how did you get Angela Duckworth?

[Liberty Mutual Announcer]

I don't know.

[Guy Kawasaki]

I wrote an email to her and Angela answered because Angela likes to support young women. I said, well, can you do me a favor and send an email to Angela Duckworth telling her that Guy Kawasaki wants her on his podcast? And she sent that email and Angela Duckworth replied to me because of some 16 year old random podcaster in Tuscaloosa or Mobile or, you know, I don't know, some place Alabama Or Tennessee. So that's how I got the MacArthur fellow, the mother of grit, Angela Duckworth on my podcast.

[Kim Scott]

And that is such a good story about now. Now I've what. What has been. What I've been criticized for my whole career. In fact, when I was in Russia, people called me gospaja da, which means Ms. Yes. Because I always say yes to everything. I know, and I know why I do. Thank you for that.

[Guy Kawasaki]

I think that is a very wise, you know, I understand the opposite argument that, you know, you should focus and do a few things. Well, but, you know, Kim and I, you know, let's face it, Kim, we can do lots of things. Well, what can we say?

[Kim Scott]

Or we could do things anyway.

[Amy Sandler]

Yeah, lots of things. Kim's career as a bank teller was probably the one exception that makes that rule.

[Kim Scott]

I did not do a job.

[Amy Sandler]

Not a good job there, Guy. You framed your book around this idea of growth, grit and grace. So we just paid homage to Angela Duckworth and grit. But I think one of the things about that story you just shared was about grace and this idea of how you can be of service to people and be helpful and be on a 16 year old young woman's podcast. And so for me, that's an example of grace and reciprocity. That's one of the lessons in your book. Am I reading too much into it.

[Guy Kawasaki]

That she was being graceful?

[Amy Sandler]

Well, you. She was. Mutual grace started with some great mutual grace.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Well, I think another lesson there is, you know, defaulting to yes will lead you to places you will never ever predict and never know. One of my theories is that if you say no, that's the end of the line. Right?

[Kim Scott]

It stops there.

[Guy Kawasaki]

But if you say yes, you just never know.

[Kim Scott]

So you never know.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Yeah, how do I know? Maybe Kim Scott is going to say, guy, I'll get you Michelle Obama. I mean, who knows?

[Kim Scott]

I don't have that. But you never know what's gonna happen by the end of this podcast. Something awesome, something remarkable will happen, that's for sure.

[Amy Sandler]

Yeah, well, and the reason I also love that story is this idea of remarkable people, which is the title of your podcast. The book is Think Remarkable. And one of the things Kim and I were just chatting about was that everyone is remarkable and that, you know, the 16 year old hosting the podcast can be remarkable. So in your own words, like, what does remarkable mean to you and why?

[Guy Kawasaki]

Well, remarkable means to me that you have made or are making a difference and you're making the world a better place. So my podcast is called Remarkable people. Not rich people, not famous people, not elite people. With great pride, I tell you that there has been no private equity or hedge fund billionaire on my podcast, and they never will. The only one I would put on is Warren Buffett, but that's it. None of these people who are trying to, you know, take out the plagiarism of Harvard and, you know, now that all the world problems are solved, we gotta go after plagiarism in the Ivy League. Those people will not be on my podcast.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah, I think I love that. And I also love. I mean, the book is such a labor of love and an act of generosity to help people feel inspired early in their career about how can they, in their own unique way, be remarkable.

[Guy Kawasaki]

No, not at all. Listen, I don't want people to get the impression that you have to be Jane Goodall or Steve Jobs to be remarkable. I mean, you can fix one person, one team, one classroom, one stream. I mean, you can fix your own life and be remarkable. So, yeah, I don't want people to get the impression that you have to be Jane Goodall. Although it wouldn't be bad to be Jane Goodall. Yeah, I think she's the most remarkable person alive today.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah, I agree. She spoke at my son's school. It is high school too, but really high schoolers. Yeah, No, I love that.

[Guy Kawasaki]

You know, if you want something, you should ask busy people because I think a lot of people on the outside looking and saying, there's no way I'm gonna get Angela Duckworth. There's no way I'm gonna get Jane Goodall. So they self select and they chicken out and they don't ask. People like me and Kim were sitting here, go, we got nothing to do today. Like, nobody's asking us to do anything.

[Kim Scott]

We got time. There's always. There's always time. There's always space and there's always money. It's just a trade off between them.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Not in that order.

[Kim Scott]

Not in that order. But, you know, if you don't have any money and you don't have any time, you find some space, you know.

[Amy Sandler]

Well, I have to say, the forward in your book, having Jane Goodall there, who is one of my heroes for sure, and I think she was the first guest on your podcast.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Yeah.

[Amy Sandler]

And I am really curious, this link from your perspective guy around nature and how we all can have a remarkable relationship with nature, because in the book, not only did you feature Jane Goodall, but you also talked about getting stoked by oaks. Was that the phrase, like how you can grow oak trees. And then you and Kim talked about growing poppies. And so tell me about nature. That's something that. I think each of us can develop a better relationship with nature.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Well, okay. In a rare moment of blatant honesty and humility. I mean, you know, I don't want you to think I'm like Greta Thunberg, 70 years old, Asian American. Okay? I'm not. I mean, I'm not, you know, like, I've owned. I've owned cars with like less than 10 miles per gallon. God forbid I have flown on private planes, but I don't fly on private planes anymore. I mean, listen, I. If Cameron Thomas is not flying with me, let me just put it that way. Okay? So unless he's on Southwest.

[Kim Scott]

So, yeah.

[Guy Kawasaki]

So, you know, but I think the. The thing that I come into nature, the contact the most, is surfing. I surf almost every day. Like, literally almost every day. And you. You cannot surf and not appreciate, you know, what nature is to you.

[Kim Scott]

But before you do, I want to ask you a question. Did you read Barbarian? Kim likes to derail too, so, yeah, we. This. This Amy is going to have a hard time today. Did you read Barbarian Days about surfing?

[Guy Kawasaki]

Oh, yes, yes, of course.

[Kim Scott]

I read that book. It's so good. All right, well, maybe you can teach me to surf, and I'll come plant poppies around your oak trees.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Okay, that works for me.

[Kim Scott]

All right. So what's your derail?

[Amy Sandler]

Yeah, where were you?

[Guy Kawasaki]

Okay, so, you know, if you had to, if you were writing a book, like my kind of book, the person you would want most in the world to write your Ford is, guess what? Jane Goodall. And I got Jane Goodall. So now you should ask me, Guy. How did you possibly get Jane Goodall to write the Ford for your book and be your first guest?

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[Guy Kawasaki]

So, you know, you probably want to know how I got Jane Goodall to be the person who wrote my Ford. Because actually, you know, Jane Goodall, like, who could be a better person to write your fort than Jane Goodall?

[Kim Scott]

So anyway, nobody.

[Guy Kawasaki]

So I have to take you back in time. And what I'm the story I'm going to tell you, it just proves what Steve Jobs said is you cannot connect the dots looking forward. You can only connect them looking backwards. So let me connect the dots for you. So I was born and raised in Honolulu, Hawaii, in a relatively poor part. And I was at a public school, elementary school. Elementary school teacher tells my parents, take me out of this school system, put me into a private school system so I can go to college. My parents, God bless them, listen to her.

[Kim Scott]

Wow.

[Guy Kawasaki]

And they made the sacrifice to put me into this school. So I go into this school. Now this school is on the other side of town, so I have to catch the bus to get to this school. Twice in my high school career, I got robbed on the bus. I'll come back to why that story is important. All right, so now I get into this school and God knows, I don't know why, but I applied to Stanford and God knows I don't know how I got in. I'm so old that, you know, back when I applied to Stanford, being Japanese American, you were an oppressed minority. So it wasn't, you know, this double standard standard like Japanese after 4.3 JPA and you know.

[Kim Scott]

Right, right.

[Guy Kawasaki]

1700 out of 1600 possible points on the SAT. So I get into Stanford and then I meet this guy named Mike H. And he and I shared an interest because back when I was in high School. A family friend gave me a ride in his Porsche 911. And I came off, I came out of that car and I said, this is why you should study. This is why you should work hard. Forget changing the world, just change the car. Okay, so now fast forward at Stanford and I meet Mike Boych and we become friends because we both love cars. The difference between him and me is that he has nice cars and I want nice cars. Anyway, so now fast forward again and I, Mike Boych gave me the job at Apple because I was his friend. So I am living proof that nepotism can work out. Because I had a psych degree, I worked for a jewelry company. There was nothing on paper that would make a recruiter look at me and say, oh yeah, let's bet Macintosh, software, evangelism on an ex jewelry schlepper who has a psych degree. Not one computer class in his background. So now I get into Apple and I do. Well, I'm very visible. Fast forward another few years and I get this email out of the blue. This is Jane Goodall is going to come and speak at TEDx. I'm the executive director of TEDx Palo Alto. I want you to moderate her on stage. I don't know you personally. You don't know me personally, but I know of you because of your Macintosh background. That's another lesson here, that it's not important who you know. What's truly important, who knows of you, which is key difference.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Guy Kawasaki]

So this woman knows of me. I of course accept this. I become friends with Jane Goodall. And then I started my podcast and my, you know, when I started my podcast, I like, who's the best person for your first, first guess? Jane Goodall. And I can tell you something. You know Kim and Amy, when Jane Goodall is your first guest, it's pretty easy to get follow on guests because you know, they ask, well, who else has been on your podcast, guys?

[Kim Scott]

So I don't know.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Have you heard of a woman named Jane Goodall? She was on my podcast. You know you, that's the kind of company you'll be in. Not one schmuck said, oh yeah, no, I've never heard of her. You only have B players. So I'm not gonna be on your podcast. I'm saving myself for Joe Rogan. So anyway, so I'm telling you that whole story. So that's how I got to Jane Goodall, because a sixth grade teacher convinced my parents to put me into a private school.

[Kim Scott]

That's amazing. That is an amazing story. And the question is, like, how can we create a situation where the public school will do that for all the kids, will give that many. You know, because one of the things that. I wonder what you think about this at Apple, one of the stories that was maybe apocryphal, maybe true, was Steve Jobs comparing debate at Apple to a rock tumbler. And he says, you go out, he told the story from being a kid, and his neighbor sent him out into the yard to get three or four ordinary stones. Not don't go get the most exceptional stones in the yard, but just go get three ordinary stones, and you put them in this rock tumbler. And, you know, there's a lot of noise, a lot of friction. But three days later, out come these beautifully polished stones. And he can. He likened debate on our discussion on a team to a rock tumbler. And I think, like, when. When any of us get into the right situation and the right situation for us, that's when we can become remarkable. So what do you think about that?

[Guy Kawasaki]

Like, I like that theory. And in a sense, I'll give you. The first part of the book is about the growth mindset, which is basically an homage to Carol Dweck, because Carol Dweck is the mother of the growth mindset. Right. Now, fast forward. And there's a protege of Carol Dweck named Mary Murphy, and she's also a professor, and she writes a book. And she brings this insight to Carol that says, you know, Carol, a growth mindset is basically inside somebody's head.

[Kim Scott]

Right.

[Guy Kawasaki]

You either believe you can grow or you can't, or you believe you're fixed or you're not. So it's inside somebody's head. But there's another factor, Carol, that you don't address, which is the environment you're in.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Because if you have a growth mindset in a growth mindset organization, you'll do well. But if you have a growth mindset inside a fixed mindset organization, you're gonna suck.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Guy Kawasaki]

You're gonna bang your head. Again, very important lesson there that, you know, it's not just the mindset. I mean, if you worked at Apple, they had a growth mindset in the company, not just in the people.

[Amy Sandler]

And it's interesting because, like, when you're talking about the environment that you were at Stanford and you were able to connect the dots and your parents were able to support you to get to Stanford, and then you met the guy Mike, who had the car and then connected you to Apple. And one of the things you talk about in your book, is that encouraging employers to not necessarily hire, focus just on formal education, wanting to democratize that. But how do we democratize the meeting of the person like Mike who can get me into the job at Apple, and so on and so forth. How can you create more of those connections?

[Guy Kawasaki]

I think too many HR decisions or recruiting decisions, they're made, you know, primarily on your educational background and your work experience. But I ask that people throw in a third thing, which is does the candidate love what we do? Because love conquers all. And here we have a non technical extra jeweler. Right. And he has a major in psych from Stanford because that's the easiest major. So I'm everything wrong for that. And here I am. I hope people listening to this will say, yeah, you have the right background educationally and work experience. But really what attracts us to use that? You love the product. It's Canva, it's Macintosh, you know, it's Android. I don't care what it is. But you gotta love the product. I think that goes a long, long way.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. And you gotta love what you're gonna do. You gotta love your role in building the product.

[Guy Kawasaki]

I only wish that people knew as they were going into a company that they're gonna love what they're gonna do.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. But like I had a. Actually he was at Apple University too. Richard Tedlow, he used to ask a very good question. This is one of my favorite professors from business school who is also at Apple University. And Richard used to ask, ask, do you want to be a manager or do you want to do the thing that managers do? And if you don't want to do the thing that manage, don't become a manager. You know, do you want to be a product person or do you want to do the things that product. And there's a lot of you gotta, you've gotta be able to be excited even about some of the things that other people might find tedious in the role. Yeah, I think that's what I'm being remarkable.

[Guy Kawasaki]

I think one of the patterns of thinking that we need to break out of is that as you rise in a company, it means that you're managing more and more people. I mean, you can be the most amazing individual contributor for 20, 30, 40 years. What's wrong with that?

[Kim Scott]

It's awesome, right? Yeah. Yeah.

[Guy Kawasaki]

I hope people appreciate that. You don't need to have a bunch of people working for you in order to succeed. You can succeed as an individual.

[Amy Sandler]

And Guy, we've talked a little bit on this podcast about the concept of icky guy, which you also talk about in the book. And you distinguish between interest and passion. I thought that was such, such an interesting distinction. Can you share a bit more and define from your own experience?

[Guy Kawasaki]

I think people throw around the P word passion much too loosely and much cavalierly. They. It's as if, you know, they're telling young people, you have to find your passion. And, you know, preferably you'd find your passion before you're 18 years old. Because we need a college essay. So you should need to talk about how you started a not for profit educational institution in Africa at 17 so you can get into Dartmouth.

[Kim Scott]

Right.

[Guy Kawasaki]

So I think that we, we set people up for failure because they think, oh, my God, I'm supposed to find this passion and it's supposed to be instant love, and I'm supposed to be instantly good at it. And, you know, this is how life works. And life does not work like that.

[Kim Scott]

No, it does not.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Yeah. My advice is you scratch a lot of itches, you. You pursue a lot of interests, and knock on wood, one or two or three over your lifetime will turn into a passion or icky. But I mean, in a sense, it's like saying to someone who's, you know, 18, 19, 20, why haven't you gotten married? Why haven't you found the man or woman who's going to be your passion for the rest of your life? What's wrong with you? Well, I would say at 18, 19 or 20, you should still be collecting data. You shouldn't be declaring your lifelong passion yet.

[Kim Scott]

You got to do your due diligence.

[Guy Kawasaki]

You gotta plant a lot of oaks.

[Kim Scott]

Yes. Yeah. Until you figure out which one is gonna survive. I so agree with that. I mean, I think that in fact, I was very proud of my son recently. He was asked to write some essay about, you know, what's his passion? And he's like, I want to be just a kid. And I was like, amen. Like, that is, that's what, that's what we want for, for people to be able to explore and do some stuff they don't wind up like, liking.

[Guy Kawasaki]

And, and what kind of institution asked that question?

[Kim Scott]

It was a private school.

[Guy Kawasaki]

High school or college?

[Kim Scott]

High school.

[Guy Kawasaki]

A high school is asking, what's your passion?

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. Yeah. You know, or tell this, what's your, what's your superpower? I'm like, I'm a kid. I'm a kid. That's my superpower. I'm just a kid. But the good news is that he pointed out the absurdity. And they. They took the feedback. They. It worked for him.

[Guy Kawasaki]

You know, I mean, if somebody can look back and say, I knew this was the one thing to do, I knew this was my passion, I would say that that person is very selectively remembering the past.

[Kim Scott]

Yes. I had a mentor who said to me once, only about 1% of us really know what we want to do when we grow up. And I was 30 at the time, so I wasn't a child. And they confused the hell out of the other 99% of us. That feels really true to me.

[Guy Kawasaki]

I'm surprised that it's as high as 1%, but. Discussion.

[Amy Sandler]

Well, and it's interesting because you talk about a growth mindset, and I know your book is really trying to focus on advice for younger people starting their career. And I think there's a lot of wisdom there for us, not as young folks around this idea of a growth mindset. Because you talk about that you started playing hockey in your 40s and that. Did you really start surfing in your 60s? Because now I know it's a daily passion. I. Absolutely. Or interest. Is it an interest or a passion? I don't want to put words in your mouth. Maybe surfing.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Surfing is an obsession. I surf every day. I take breaks from surfing to do podcast interviews.

[Amy Sandler]

Well, I'm sorry to get in the way, but I'm so curious. Like, what was it that sparked in you to go from, you know, one day someone who doesn't play hockey or one day someone who doesn't serve to, like, how did you actually. What was the first time getting on the skates or getting on the surfboard, like, for you?

[Guy Kawasaki]

All right, so for a birthday party, my wife and two sons, we went to the San Jose Sharks game. We never had seen hockey before. I'm from Hawaii. I'd never seen hockey. I mean, you know, we have shave ice. We don't have hockey. So we go to the Sharks game, and we love the game because hockey is just this beautiful combination of.

[Kim Scott]

It's.

[Guy Kawasaki]

It's war and it's strategy and it's violence, and it's also ballet. It's a very, very great game. And, you know, in. In soccer, like, the ball always goes out of bounds, and then, you know, somebody gets tripped, and he's writhing on the ground as if he's broken his leg. And then 30 seconds later, he's, you know, back in action. Like, nothing. That's like professional wrestling. Meet soccer.

[Amy Sandler]

Right?

[Guy Kawasaki]

It's such a thing. So in hockey, the puck hardly ever goes out of BO if you were to flop around like that in a hockey game, you would be humiliated because all these hardcore Canadians, they would be pissing on your grave if you did that. So anyway, we indulge our kids in everything they say to us. Oh, mom and dad, we want to try hockey. Of course you want to try hockey. Just don't try wingsuit. So we get them in this hockey class. Then my wife says, you know, honey, I don't want you to be like other Silicon Valley executives, which are BlackBerry. And you're sitting on the sidelines or behind the glass, and you're just like. When your son's on the ice, you look up and you look up from your BlackBerry, watch for 60 seconds, and then you're back to your BlackBerry. I want you to involve with our kids life. So I want you to take up hockey, too. And you know, I listened to my wife, so I take up hockey. And then I loved hockey. And it's similar thing with my daughter. My daughter got really into surfing and I said, okay, so, you know, here we go. Hockey too. And then I fell in love with surf, surfing. And so my parenting has been kind of like this, that rather than trying to force my kids to take up what I take up or what I love, I take up what they love. It's a lot less friction. So it's not like, you know, it's not like I force my kids to be marketers. Right? So I'll take up hockey, you take up surfing. I'll take up surfing. But I alluded to this earlier. My other son is a wing suiter, and I draw the line there good at my wake. So I'm not doing wailing. Suiting.

[Kim Scott]

What is that? Where you jump out of a. Yeah.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Like you're a squirrel.

[Kim Scott]

Have you tried that?

[Guy Kawasaki]

The thing in Las Vegas?

[Kim Scott]

They have one right here in the Bay Area. That was what I did with my daughter.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Jet engine thing.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah, it just blows air. And you like, you know, but there's no danger because even if the electricity goes out, the only fall recommend it.

[Guy Kawasaki]

But Kim, I work for Apple, so people who are blowing hot air at.

[Kim Scott]

Me for years, it's not hot air, it's cold air. There you go. Big difference.

[Amy Sandler]

We've learned something. Wingsuiting. Well, I think it's really interesting, you know, that your passions, or at least obsession of surfing, ice hockey, doesn't sound like it became a passion, maybe an interest, and you enjoyed doing it.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Well, I would say that my wife may be interested in it, my daughter may be interested in it.

[Kim Scott]

It.

[Guy Kawasaki]

But after about 60 seconds, it became my passion.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah, that is really cool.

[Amy Sandler]

Kim, are there any lessons from a manager or leader kind of following the guidance from the people that work for them to try things out equivalently from parent to kid and management?

[Kim Scott]

I think that the, The. There's a lot of morals to your story, Guy, but one of them is that a great way to be a leader is to get interested in what your people are interested in and go do it with them. Them and try stuff out.

[Amy Sandler]

You're.

[Kim Scott]

You're following in order to spend time with them. And that's what you really need to do.

[Guy Kawasaki]

I mean, imagine all the people who have taken up golf because their manager took up or likes to play golf.

[Amy Sandler]

Right.

[Guy Kawasaki]

So that's how they're gonna, like, get quality time and they're gonna suck up to them on the golf course or then they gotta go to the strip club and, you know. Oh, my God. Just.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. And it still happens that people take their managers, take their people to strip clubs. Ridiculous.

[Guy Kawasaki]

I can. I cannot imagine that.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah, but you want to follow them. Maybe not anywhere they want to go.

[Amy Sandler]

But some discernment there.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Amy Sandler]

Well, as we're moving into some more potentially challenging topics, you know, guy, you shared a story where we haven't had.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Any challenging topics yet.

[Amy Sandler]

Well, you talked about how you were. I don't know if you were mowing the lawn or you were making. Doing some work in the garden, trimming the hedges. Yes. Do you want to share that story with our listeners?

[Guy Kawasaki]

I'll tell you the lesson of this story. The lesson of this story is you should chillax. You should give people the benefit of the doubt. You should not look for trouble where trouble might not exist. Enough trouble is going to come your way. Don't look for it. So the story goes that this is 20 years ago. My wife and I were living with our first son in San Francisco on Union street and right where the Union street ends into the Presidio. So let's just say that's a very nice part of San Francisco.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Guy Kawasaki]

And I was out front and I was cutting our bougainvillea hedge, and this older white woman comes up to me and says, do you do lawns too? Now? Now, you know, I. I kind of didn't let her off the hook. I said, oh, I'm Japanese, so you think I'm the lawn man, huh, lady?

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Now. So, you know, there's a lesson there about sort of stereotyping because of, you know, race Right? So, like, right, every Japanese is not a lawn man. You know, every Mexican person is not a yard man, and every Mexican person is not a cook. And, you know, every black person cannot dance. Well, I mean, we could go on and on and on, right? Although, you know, maybe not every white person is a member of QAnon. Okay, so we gotta give white people the benefit of the doubt, too. So anyway, so that's one story about stereotypes. But then the next thing is that my father comes and visits me a couple weeks later. I'm third generation, he's second generation, he served in the US army, and I fully expect him to just go off on this spread. Like, how dare this woman ask you if you're the yard man and you're doing lawns? Because, you know, you went to Stanford, you work for Apple, you've written 12 books, you know, Steve Jobs, blah, blah, blah, blah. And to my utter amazement, he says, you know, son, on Union Street, a Japanese man cutting a hedge most likely is the yard man. So get over it. And I, like, that just took me so long by surprise. And he said, you know, take the high road. Treat it with humor. Don't look for trouble. Maybe she just wanted to know if you do lawns. I mean, I should have said that. You know, either. I could have either said that I do lawns, but, you know, the, the woman who owns this house sleeps with me for me cutting her bush. What are you gonna do? What are, you know, cutting her. Bogan Villas. Cutting her bush might not be the right phrase in this story. So that was the day I learned to take the high road and give people the benefit of the doubt. And not like, you know, yeah, not like make myself crazy.

[Kim Scott]

So in the spirit of radical canner, I wonder if there's a way to tell her that she had made a mistake. Okay, like, again, let's give her the benefit of the doubt, this white lady.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Okay, let's give her the third part to this story. If you want to hit some. Now, now I'm doing my Remarkable People podcast, and I interview a black activists and I tell them this story and I say, so, you know, I mean, do you think that's optimal? It goes, you know, guy, I mean, what you should do in that kind of circumstance is treated as a learning opportunity. You should very calmly say to that woman, you know, some people might find something like that offensive because you think that because I'm Japanese, I'm the yard man. I'm not the yard man. So I just, just, I don't know. If you even know if you're doing this. But you should appreciate the fact that some people might be offended by the racial stereotyping. And she said you should treat it as a. As a learning opportunity for the other person. And if you just don't say anything, she might never know that it was considered offensive.

[Kim Scott]

So, yeah, she might never know or she might realize and feel like a jackass. But it would be easier. It would be easier for her to acknowledge it if you said something. Something. So, like, I. Yeah, I think when we. When we were talking about this on your podcast, I was talking about. About h. I tend to default to silence. So if I had been in your shoes, I probably wouldn't have said anything.

[Guy Kawasaki]

It says the white woman.

[Kim Scott]

I know. Yes, the white woman and the wom. You know, like, there was a time I was at this. This. I was going to give a talk. It was a big conference, big tech conference there. It was like 90 men, 10 women. And right before I went on stage, this guy runs up to me and he says, where's the safety pin? I need a safety pin. You know, assuming that I, you know, it was the same kind of thing. And I didn't say anything to him, but I still, like, I'm still kind of annoyed with myself for not saying anything to him because the problem. The problem was I just kind of looked at him like, what's your problem? And went on. Went on stage, and then he thought he was getting bad service, and so now he's gonna go ding the staff of the conference, the conference organizer, and that's not fair to them. So I think there's, like, you know, we all play these different roles sometimes. Sometimes you're the target of whatever. Annoying. But, you know, it wasn't the end of the world, but it wasn't. It was funny, but also annoying.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Now, when you say you didn't say anything, do you wish you just calmly pointed out the fallacy of his idiocy?

[Kim Scott]

I wish I had done what the guest on your podcast had recommended, treated it as like, you know, I'm sure you don't want to make this mistake again. I want to let you know that I am not one of the organizers and that in fact, the organizers, to prevent this exact situation, are all wearing these bright yellow T shirts. Oh, and they're 30 years younger than I am. So if you had a couple of. Of clues that I was not the person to fetch your safety pin. But then, you know, the other thing is, he was so rude to me. And this is where we're going to factor in power into this whole thing. He thought it was fine to treat one of the organizers of the. One of the people who was staffing the conference that way. And it's not really okay.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Elon Musk.

[Kim Scott]

No, no, it wasn't. I don't remember who it was. It was some less well known money guy, but he was an LP to venture capital firms.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Oh, yes.

[Kim Scott]

So now I'm going to tell you my yard story. Working in the yard story, which happened just recently.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Does it have to do with poppies?

[Kim Scott]

I was. I was weeding along the side of the road so that the poppies would grow because the invasive grasses get in. And this is an obsession with me. Like, I will spend 20, 30 hours a week during the spring weeding, pulling out the place. And. And I'm.

[Guy Kawasaki]

You should hire a Japanese American to do that for you.

[Kim Scott]

I do hire some people to help me, but I really like to do the work myself. I enjoy it. It gives me enormous pleasure. And so one of my neighbors stopped and he was like, ha, ha ha, you got a new job, Kim. And I feel like there's like this snob snobbery around different kinds of work that is just not acceptable. Like. Like we should all do the work that we love to do regardless. You know, it's like a cast system almost kind of.

[Amy Sandler]

So did you say anything to that neighbor?

[Kim Scott]

I said, this gives me more pleasure than anything I'm going to do this week. You want to join me?

[Guy Kawasaki]

You know, does he have an American flag flying upside down outside his house?

[Kim Scott]

No, he does not.

[Amy Sandler]

Well, thank you for this segue on how do we connect with people with opposing viewpoints? And I really love this tip guy. This came from spiritual leader Mark Laberton, am I pronouncing that correctly? Who is one of your guests, and talked about asking how instead of why can help us connect with folks with different viewpoints. So how would you like to explain that to us?

[Guy Kawasaki]

Okay, so I'm interviewing Mark Laverton. He was at the time, he was CEO of Fuller Seminary. And for those of you who are not familiar with Fuller, Fuller is kind of the Harvard Business School of Christian Management and Leadership. Now, there's a lot to unpack in that statement already because, you know, there's a whole new connotation to being Christian these days. Right? So this is, this is the Christian that loves people and is open minded and, you know, not. Not the one that's like, like whatever you do, Donald, is okay because you banned abortion. Not that kind of Christian? Yeah, this is the old school Christian. So anyway, so I said to him, so you know what, like I don't understand, you know, if from the outside looking in and you look at all the evangelical Christians and you know, with their, with their airplanes and how they like support somebody, like, I don't know how you could say, you know, they're Christian, Mark, how do you deal with that? And he said, you know, guy, don't ask them what they believe, don't ask them why they believe it. Ask them how they came to believe that because that fosters an actual conversation and discourse. You may learn something about that person and understand where they're coming from so that, you know, maybe the what and the why become much more palatable or much more tolerable when you know how they came to this belief. And I truly do believe that is a great thing. Not that I've done it, but I mean, I.

[Kim Scott]

It's hard to do.

[Guy Kawasaki]

It is hard to do. But you know, I'll give you a good example that is not hard to understand. So let's say that you meet somebody and they're anti vax, right. So they're anti vaccination. And so you ask them, well, how did you come to be anti vax? And he says, or she says, listen, my great granddaddy was in the army and he was involuntarily enlisted in this experiment where they gave vaccines and he got a vaccine and the vaccine killed him. So now I think vaccine can kill people.

[Kim Scott]

People.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Well, when you hear that story, you can understand why someone might be anti vax.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah, I think that is really beautiful and really important, especially over the next few months where we're going to have a lot of strong disagreements. Can I read you a quote by John Stewart Mill?

[Guy Kawasaki]

Sure.

[Kim Scott]

And because I think this is, this has been very helpful for me in those. In, in. In wading into those conversations. Okay. Even if your belief be not only true, but the whole truth, unless it is vigorously and earnestly contested, it will be held in the manner of a prejudice with little comprehension or feeling of its rational ground. The dogma becoming mere formal profession, inefficacious for good, preventing the growth of any real and heartfelt conviction. So in other words, if you're not willing to talk about beliefs where you have a disagreement, then your beliefs become prejudice. If you're not open to being challenged, even if you're not going to change your mind. I think. What do you think about that?

[Guy Kawasaki]

Well, isn't that a little contrary to, you know, like Mark Laberton did not say challenge the person's belief. Mark Laberton said, ask them how they came to believe something.

[Kim Scott]

But, but also the point is allow them to challenge your belief. Oh yeah, like the conversation, I think that's what he's saying is, is like having a conversation with someone with whom you disagree vehemently is very useful, even if neither one of you change your.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Mind because you should always be talking. You just never know.

[Kim Scott]

Deep in your thinking. Yes.

[Masterclass Announcer]

Yeah.

[Amy Sandler]

And you had a quote from Stacy Abrams, who was also on your podcast. I'm going to say the quote, but if you want to share how you got Stacey Abrams, because it sounded like that was one, was a real labor of, of love. But I, I love this as a, just a general frame, which I think really works with radical candor too, which is be curious, solve problems and do good. Like what a great frame for how to think things. And I think be curious, especially about other people. But tell us about Stacey Abrams. How did you get her disconnect.

[Guy Kawasaki]

I almost jumped out of my skin when she said those three phrases because I had already organized the book. Growth, grit, grace. And then here comes Stacy Abrams and she basically says, you know, you should be learning, you should be persevering and you should be doing good. And like, oh my God, you line up exactly with the sections of my book, Stacy. So I have been pursuing Stacey Abrams for about two years and everywhere I spoke, everybody I interviewed, everybody, I just said, can you get me to Stacey Abrams? And I should have asked that 16 year old girl in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. She probably had kind of gotten me saved a year from me. But anyway, so finally somebody that I was talking to introduced me to Stacy and, and Stacy answered my email. She was coming to where I live because she had a book signing. So I reached out, I said, stacy, I know you're coming to Santa Cruz and you're having a book signing and you know, you're probably really busy. So. So I have a spare house. You can stay in the house and then, you know, before you go to the signing, you can hide out and, you know, have peace. And then I swear to God, I mean, I thought like, probably her security detail thought, oh, this is a guy who's trying to kidnap her. He's gonna like, who the hell is this guy? So I sent people my LinkedIn profile to show that I'm not a random. Not okay. And anyway, so she ended up working in our house that afternoon before she went to her signing. So, so we don't let anybody Else sit in that chair. That's the Stacey Abrams chair.

[Kim Scott]

I love that.

[Amy Sandler]

I love that, too.

[Guy Kawasaki]

I hope she's President of the United States someday.

[Kim Scott]

Boy, you and me both.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Yeah. Wow. Wouldn't that be great, huh?

[Kim Scott]

That, you know, it can happen. It could happen.

[Guy Kawasaki]

It can happen.

[Amy Sandler]

Where do you want to go now? Like, I have a bunch of questions, but since you are a podcast host, what question do you want me to ask you right in this moment? What's feeling interesting and important?

[Guy Kawasaki]

I don't care. You just ask me whatever you want to ask me.

[Amy Sandler]

All right. Well, one of them is about imposter syndrome, but since you said about not being a control freak, like, that feels like another message that I took away from your book, which is especially about reciprocity and grace of, like, doing things to that saying, yes, doing things to be of service, but without necessarily having the idea of exactly how it's going to look like. I'm doing this thing for you, guy, and I'm expecting this in back. Like, there's sort of that letting go. Do you want to share more about that?

[Guy Kawasaki]

Well, I have come to believe that, you know, defaulting to yes is long term, very good, very good policy. And I also believe that there is a karmic scoreboard in the sky and somebody or something is keeping track. You know, like, are you helping people or are you just trying to get help helped? And I think that there's a scoreboard and, you know, whether you believe in God or not, I have this. I know I'm theologically wrong, but, you know, I have this belief that, well, just in case there's God, and I get up there to the top of the escalator and, you know, he's. He or she. It's probably she. She asked me, so, you know, why should I let you into the pearly gates of heaven? And I don't want to say, well, I gave a building to Stanford, or.

[Kim Scott]

That'S not getting you in.

[Guy Kawasaki]

I got rid of plagiarism at Harvard. Or I want to say that I help people make a difference and I help them be remarkable and I help them realize their dreams with my books and my writing and my podcasting. So that's why you should let me into heaven. I'm pretty confident I'll get in. And now let's say that God does not exist. But my logic is not that, you know, nobody really knows if God exists or not. So we're talking about eternity. So why take a chance?

[Kim Scott]

Right?

[Guy Kawasaki]

This is. Yeah, do not take a chance. This Is not. This is not something you just roll the dice with. I also think on a very practical sense that, oh, my goodness, you know, it's much easier to be positive than negative, and it's much easier to help people than to always be coming up with reasons why you cannot do things.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah, it's a happier way to live.

[Guy Kawasaki]

It is a happier. Happy is easy. It's angry. That's hard.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. Exhausting.

[Guy Kawasaki]

It is exhausting.

[Amy Sandler]

You do talk about. And I love that you mentioned Julia Cameron. I did. The Artist's Way. I love that book and that program. And sort of the inner self critic, as well as imposter syndrome. You talked about both of those things. And so I'm curious, what lessons do you have for those of us who are really hard on ourselves? So maybe the default is actually to be really more. More critical and, oh, I don't think I'm capable of being remarkable.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Okay, so here's the interesting thing that, you know, I've interviewed about 250 people, of which maybe 60 or 70% were women. I have more women than men on my podcast because quite frankly, there's more remarkable women than men. But that's a different discussion. So, anyway, I can tell you one of the astounding facts is that many, many highly accomplished women told me they had imposter syndrome. Not one man said they had imposter syndrome.

[Kim Scott]

Wow.

[Guy Kawasaki]

What do you think of that?

[Kim Scott]

Like, you know, I believe that I think, you know, it's. I have twins, a boy and a girl. And it was really interesting to me, like, from a very young. One of my favorite stories about my son. He's going to be mad at me. But we were. We used to go to this farm every weekend called Hidden Villa, right around the corner.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Oh, yeah.

[Kim Scott]

And they would. There's a lot of chickens there. And Battle got very good at catching the chickens and hugging the chickens. And he's sitting there and he's holding this chicken, hugging it, saying, this chicken loves me. Meanwhile, the chicken is like, shitting all over him. I was like, you know, I wish I were a little boy. The confidence of the little boy is really delightful, and I wanted to celebrate that. And I also want to that make sure that my daughter feels the same confidence.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Kim Scott]

This chicken, he also got a guitar. And I said, do you want to take guitar lessons? He's like, what are you talking about? I already know how to play the guitar.

[Guy Kawasaki]

I would say that, you know, maybe that's a little too confident.

[Amy Sandler]

Right.

[Kim Scott]

He was a child. He's now A little, you know, a little more self aware awareness. But I do think that there is. I don't think imposter syndrome is something I want to impose on my son. I think it's something I want to remove from my daughter.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Yeah, that's an excellent point. Yes.

[Amy Sandler]

Were there any tips from your guest guy around overcoming imposter syndrome that you think would be helpful to share?

[Guy Kawasaki]

Well, I can give you some. So number one is just recognize the facts that it is imposter syndrome. When you look around the room and you say, oh, I'm a fake, I'm not as good as these people, they're going to discover this and you know, they're going to out me. That's called the imposter syndrome. And the very fact that it's labeled that imposter syndrome and in the general vernacular and conversation means that, guess what? It's very common. Yeah, it's a very common syndrome. So. So the very fact that it has a name like that and it's well known means that lots of people have it. You are not alone. In fact, I would make the case that if you had a choice between having imposter syndrome and you had the, you know, sort of this chicken loves me entitlement syndrome. Yeah. If I had to choose between imposter or entitlement syndrome, I pick imposter syndrome all day long.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. Yes, that is so.

[Guy Kawasaki]

So that's number one, realizing that lots of people have it. And then number two is you just gotta step back, look at like, look at all the positive things that I've done. I am not an imposter. You just need to convince yourself of that and surround yourself with people who are positive, not tearing you down.

[Kim Scott]

How did you do that at Apple? Apple was a pretty confident. I found it like I've been in a lot of environments, I found sometimes Apple could be a bit intimidated, Intimidating.

[Guy Kawasaki]

You know, you could make the case. So here's Guy Kawasaki, right? So he has a BA at the easiest major at Stanford, Psychology. His background was schlepping and counting diamonds. And now he's with these like, you know, PhD students from Carnegie Mellon and Steve Jobs and you know, all these people. Did Guy have an imposter syndrome? Yeah, maybe for two weeks. But anyway.

[Kim Scott]

So what was that? What was this? What was your solution?

[Guy Kawasaki]

I don't know. I, you know, this was so long ago, Imposter syndrome was not yet recognized and I, I think that, well, well, the, the practical term is that is it. Steve Jobs was so intimidating. He just scared the out of everybody, probably everybody had imposter syndrome. So when you're fearing for your life, you can't be thinking about, am I an imposter? You just got to do what you do to survive life.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. And I think that's. It's useful to remember that, like, when you feel like you're at a disadvantage, for whatever reason, the people who wind up successful are not those who play Beta Dog, but those who step up and just get on it, try to get on a level playing field, even if you don't, you know, Even.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Yeah.

[Kim Scott]

Just recognize it. I mean, that. That. That gap is imaginary.

[Guy Kawasaki]

It is imaginary. And I also think that we're talking about complex things because it's a fine line between you. You gotta believe that gap is imaginary, and then if you go too far, you start believing that you are superior to everybody. And I'm telling you, it's better to believe that there's a gap than to believe that you are entitled to everything.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Guy Kawasaki]

That's a lot harder to beat the shit out of.

[Kim Scott]

Yes. Totally agree. You don't want to put yourself up here or down here. You want to get on.

[Guy Kawasaki]

I have come to believe, Kim and Amy, that over the course of my life, I've come to believe that everybody you meet is better at something than you. Everybody.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Guy Kawasaki]

It could be surfing, it could be hockey. It could be making tacos. It could be cooking. It could be, you know, I don't know, violin, whatever. But you are not the center of the world.

[Kim Scott]

That is the truth. Yes. There's no such thing as a B player. Everybody's great at something.

[Amy Sandler]

Yeah. And remarkable.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Everybody's great at something. Everybody's remarkable, but nobody's great at everything.

[Amy Sandler]

Yeah. Guy, I have one more question and then one reflection before we close, and I want to make sure that I bring in, because I think, you know, Kim talks a lot about getting stuff or shit done in the book Radical Candor, and on your podcast, in your book, you talk about Harvard Professor Ellen Langer's wisdom about making the decision right versus making the right decision. That feels especially relevant now. So can you share why that rang such alarm bells?

[Guy Kawasaki]

This really rang a very loud bell, although I'm deaf, so that's not a good metaphor. But anyway, Ellen Langer said, you know, people, we spend so much time with artificial intelligence and big data and all that, we're trying to make this perfect decision, and we make. Tie ourselves in knots trying to make this perfect decision, and you cannot predict the future. You don't know what's going to happen. So a better attitude is you take your best shot and then you just make your decision. And I, and I heard that, I said, God damn, that is some wisdom there.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Guy Kawasaki]

You know, people, people think if you, you make a decision careful enough, you're going to make the right decision. And then it's all easy after you make the right decision. But A, you're not going to make the right decision and B, it's not going to be easy. So you should just figure out that, you know, whatever you decide, you make your decision.

[Kim Scott]

Right.

[Guy Kawasaki]

And I, that is one of the most important things that I learned. And you can apply it to surfing too. You know, when you're out there surfing and you're. 90% of surfing is waiting for, looking for and finding the right wave at the right speed, the right height, the right direction, the right everything. And then at some point, point you just turn and you paddle and then you discover, ah, this wasn't the right wave. But then at that point you're committed. You know, you just have to make your decision. Right? You're committed. As you say, you got to make your decision. Right. And you get a ride out of a wave that was not ideal. And that's how surfing works. I think that's how life works.

[Kim Scott]

That is a, that is such a good metaphor. I'm using it today.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Okay, feel free.

[Amy Sandler]

It is a great one. And I actually like the using ride and wave and coming up with a rave. That's. We can coin that as well when you're doing the ride and the wave.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Okay, I'll tell you a story, another story about motivation because, okay, one of my key lessons in the book is it's not how you got motivated, it's that you did get, get motivated. So don't worry about the source of your motivation. Just worry that you are motivated. So I'm going to tell you one last story. So 25 years ago or so, and I had an. A Porsche 911 because, you know, I took the formative high school experience and executed on it. So I had a 911 and I'm, I'm in Menlo Park, California and I'm, I'm on El Camino right where Jeffrey's hamburger is, if you want to know where that is. Kepler's. And Kepler. So I'm at the stoplight and I look to my left and there's a car with four teenage girls and, and they're looking at me and they're smiling, they're giggling and they're making Eye contact. And I'm thinking, oh, guy, you have arrived, man. You're like the Japanese Justin Bieber. They know who you are. It's because of Apple or your books or your garage.com or, you know, you're speaking your TED talks. There's so many reasons why these teenage girls could know who I am. So the girl in the front, she says, roll down your window. I rolled out my window. And she sticks out her head, out of her window, and she says, are you Jackie Chan?

[Amy Sandler]

Oh, no.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Well, I. I'd rather be asked if I'm Jackie Chan than if I do you lawns. But anyway, so now you know. So you're wondering. Once again, we're like, you know, there's. There's a superficial story about, you know, racial profiling or something. But a really good lesson from this is that ever since that day, one of my goals in life is that someday Jackie Chan is in Hong Kong or Shanghai or Beijing or wherever he lives, and he's in his Bentley or his s class or 7 Series BMW. God forbid, he's in a Tesla. But anyway, he's in his car and he looks over and there's this car with four teenage girls. And they're making eye contact and they ask him to put down his window. And the girl in the front seat puts out her head and says to Jackie Chan, are you Guy Kawasaki? That's my goal in life. You gotta have goals in life if you want to be remarkable.

[Kim Scott]

That is an excellent goal to always a marketer.

[Amy Sandler]

We already got some. That is some valuable advice from the expert evangelist.

[Kim Scott]

Guy.

[Amy Sandler]

How can people find you? Where do you want them to go? How can they get your book? Etc.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Well, I mean, listen, seriously, if you cannot find my book, you're not going to be remarkable because it means you're clueless. How can you not find my book? Oh, my God.

[Amy Sandler]

Holding up.

[Kim Scott]

This is. What's it.

[Amy Sandler]

It's called think Remarkable.

[Guy Kawasaki]

I'm going to tell you one last story.

[Kim Scott]

All right?

[Guy Kawasaki]

Okay. So I. This is absolutely, I swear to God, true. Every week somebody comes up to me and says, I was lost. I didn't know what to do with my life. I had no direction. And then I read your book and it changed my life. It gave me direction, and now I am successful because of your book. And I say to them, well, which one of my 16 books change your life? And every time they say, rich dad, poor dad.

[Kim Scott]

Oh, no. Oh, no. So that was.

[Amy Sandler]

That was written by Jackie.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Jackie Chan, Yard man, Jackie Chan, Robert Kiyosaki. I am everywhere, baby.

[Kim Scott]

Wow.

[Amy Sandler]

Oh, my gosh.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. Well, what can you do?

[Amy Sandler]

Well, we will say Guy Kawasaki is author of Remarkable. Remarkable. It's called Think Remarkable or just Remarkable.

[Guy Kawasaki]

With the word Poor Dad. Poor dad.

[Amy Sandler]

We'll have you on the podcast to talk about it, Guy. All right, so look for Think Remarkable. Listen to the Remarkable People podcast and.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Subscribe to my Substack newsletter. That's where I'm putting my effort now. My podcast. Yeah.

[Amy Sandler]

All right, go check out, guys.

[Guy Kawasaki]

Thank you, everybody.

[Kim Scott]

We had a good time.

[Amy Sandler]

We had a lot of fun. Thanks for making it work.

[Kim Scott]

Take care. Be well.

[Amy Sandler]

The Radical Candor podcast is based on the book Radical Candor via Kick ass Boss without losing your humanity by Kim Scott. Episodes are written, written and produced by Brandy Neal with script editing by me, Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff and is hosted by me, still Amy Sandler. Nick Karisimi is our audio engineer. The Radical Candor Podcast theme music was composed by Cliff Goldmacher. Follow us on LinkedIn Radical Candor the company and visit [e-mail].

[Guy Kawasaki]

And Doug here.

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[Guy Kawasaki]

Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.

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[Guy Kawasaki]

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[Amy Sandler]

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