Radical Candor: Communication at Work

Episode 7.12 – How to TALK So People Actually Listen with Dr. Alison Wood Brooks

Airdate: March 19, 2025
Hosts: Amy Sandler, Kim Scott, Jason Rosoff
Guest: Dr. Alison Wood Brooks, Harvard Business School

Episode Overview

In this dynamic episode, host Amy Sandler welcomes Dr. Alison Wood Brooks, O’Brien Associate Professor at Harvard Business School and author of the new book, Talk: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves. The conversation centers on the psychology and practical science of everyday conversation, moving beyond business negotiation to the fundamental ways we connect, give feedback, and authentically engage at work and in life. Drawing from Dr. Brooks’ research and teaching, the episode provides actionable advice for better communication, emphasizing growth, kindness, and the power of intentional listening.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Personal and Scientific Roots of "Talk"

• From Studying Emotions to Studying Conversation

  • Dr. Brooks shares her journey as a behavioral scientist, initially focusing on emotions, then shifting to how we talk about feelings and, broadly, conversation itself. (04:41)

• Rapid Growth in Conversation Science

  • Recent advances—AI, natural language processing—now allow large-scale, real-people conversation research, making this a burgeoning field. (06:07)
  • “The science of conversation is really in its infancy… But we’ve learned enough that I invented a course at HBS called Talk.” (06:38, Brooks)

• Personal Motivation: The Twin Advantage

  • Brooks credits her unique insight into conversation to being an identical twin, allowing her to continually observe, compare, and refine her social skills. (07:24)
  • “Twins are creepy, I can confirm. But… it’s like getting to watch a version of yourself interact in the social world your whole childhood and your whole life.” (07:56, Brooks)

Feedback and the Challenge of Learning Conversation

• The "Wicked Feedback Environment"
  • Unlike other skills, real-time, useful feedback is rare in conversation, making it a “wicked feedback environment.” (09:21)
  • Companies and technologies (e.g., Gong) sometimes try to offer post-conversation AI feedback, but it’s not widespread or normalized. (10:00)

The Limits of Negotiation and Expanding Success Metrics

• Beyond the Pareto Frontier
  • Brooks reflects on teaching negotiation and how traditional business models miss broader human goals—mental health, fun, comfort, and meaning. (12:27)
  • Modern workplace culture increasingly recognizes these as legitimate objectives in communication, not just efficiency or profit.

Conversation as a Coordination Game

• Micro-Decisions and Uncertainty
  • Conversation is framed as a continual, unspoken coordination puzzle—a “meta-coordination game”—where two or more people keep making micro-decisions without discussing them. (14:50)
  • “Ironically, even while we’re talking to people, there are so many things that we can’t talk about... it’s… even more relentless.” (16:20, Brooks)

Anxiety and Vulnerability: Common to All

• Universality of Social Anxiety
  • Even high-achieving students at Harvard report insecurity and awkwardness about conversations (18:25).
  • “The recipe for anxiety is uncertainty ... So if you feel anxious in your social interactions, you’re not alone, and you’re doing it right, guys.” (19:33, Brooks)

The TALK Framework: Science-based Conversational Tools

• The Four Elements
  • T: Topics—Choose and manage relevant ones in real time.
  • A: Ask—Ask more (and better) questions.
  • L: Levity—Infuse humor and warmth to avoid boredom.
  • K: Kindness—Use respectful language, demonstrate openness, and listen intentionally. (21:28)
  • “Kindness is about respectful language, staying receptive to opposing viewpoints… and listening. Even though the book is called Talk, the real glue that holds it all together is very high-effort, engagement—listening.” (22:22, Brooks)

Memorable Quotes & Notable Moments

• On the challenge of feedback in conversation:

  “People can’t stop mid-conversation and tell you feedback on every… Like, ‘Hey, that joke was really great,’ or, ‘That was hurtful’… It would be impossible to get that relentless stream of feedback.”
  — Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (10:00)

• On student vulnerability at Harvard:

  “Every single one of them is feeling anxious, feeling like they have things to work on, feeling like they’re getting it wrong all the time… You have to know that everybody is feeling some level of anxiety because the recipe for anxiety is uncertainty.”
  — Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (18:25–19:40)

• On group conversation dynamics:

  “As soon as a third person pulls up a chair, the coordination dynamics of the conversation change entirely.”
  — Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (31:49)

• On status and inclusion in meetings:

  “It’s so much easier [for leaders] to talk and participate… and that leads dominant group members to dominate airtime… Just staying quiet… part of your role as a leader… is to create psychological safety.”
  — Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (39:39–41:19)

Practical Strategies & Tips

For Individual Communication:

• Listening is Effortful—And That’s OK

  • Minds wander ~24% of the time even during live conversation (25:53).
  • Normalize and openly acknowledge if your mind wanders: “My mind was just wandering because I was so excited about what you said…” (26:30)
  • Use repair sidebars and callbacks to bring the conversation back, show engagement, and clarify missed points. (28:16)

• Authenticity, Vulnerability, and Conversational Prep

  • Proactively disclose your conversational style and ask for feedback (“let’s work well together; let me know if I go all over the place”)—empowering team members to call you back on track when needed. (31:02)

For Leading Meetings/Group Conversations:

• Clarify Meeting Purpose

  • Name and distinguish the type of meeting (brainstorm, debate, decision) at the outset to set expectations and avoid frustration. (36:17)

• Design for Inclusion and Status Awareness

  • Status shifts with topic; create moments for all to share expertise.
  • As a leader, connect one-on-one before/after meetings to gather input from quieter members (41:19).
  • In group settings, deliberately distribute eye gaze (or, in virtual meetings, use private chat for encouragement) to prevent high-status members from dominating and make others feel seen. (41:49)

Levity in Conversation:

• Levity isn’t about being funny, but injecting warmth and cutting through boredom—often best achieved through topic switching, callbacks, or genuine interest. (44:44)
• “Levity is any move, small or big, in conversation that brings humor or warmth and… helps to cut up the boredom.” (45:31)

Key Conversational Pitfall—Boomerasking

• What is it?
  • Responding to a personal revelation by immediately redirecting the topic to yourself. (42:17)
  • Fix: “If someone shares something… you have to follow up with them about it before you turn the conversation back to yourself… Otherwise it’s much too egocentric.”
  • Avoid making others feel unheard or one-upped—prioritize staying with their topic first. (43:25)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:09] – Opening personal connection—a shared experience with the flu and the value of vulnerability
• [04:41] – Dr. Brooks’ journey: from emotions research to conversational science
• [07:24] – The power of twins and natural feedback loops
• [09:21] – Conversation’s “wicked feedback environment”
• [12:27] – Limits of traditional negotiation models; expanding the definition of conversational success
• [14:50] – Conversation as a coordination game
• [18:25] – Participant vulnerability, anxiety in elite contexts
• [21:28] – The TALK framework: Topics, Asking, Levity, Kindness
• [23:52] – The challenges of sustained listening
• [25:53] – Minds wandering in conversation (24% of the time)
• [31:49] – Group conversation is categorically different; strategies for participation
• [36:17] – Clarifying debate vs. decision vs. brainstorming meetings
• [39:39] – Status dynamics and inclusion
• [41:49] – Practical leadership tip: eye gaze and private chat
• [42:17] – Boomerasking: the conversational faux pas
• [44:25] – Levity defined and how to foster it
• [45:55] – Invitation for a follow-up episode on difficult conversations and apologies

Actionable Takeaways

• Normalize imperfection in conversation—everyone struggles, even the experts.
• Practice self-awareness and be intentional about conversational choices: choose engaging topics, ask follow-up questions, use humor/warmth, and practice genuine kindness.
• Leaders: Deliberately structure meetings for clarity and inclusion, and be aware of whose voices are being heard.
• Interrupt bad conversational habits like boomerasking—focus and follow up on others’ input before redirecting.
• Share honest feedback openly and invite others to hold you accountable to your stated conversational style/goals.

Connect & Learn More

• Dr. Alison Wood Brooks
  LinkedIn: Alison Wood Brooks
  Website, book tour, and resources: alisonwoodbrooks.com
  Instagram: @prof.alisonwoodbrooks

• The Book: Talk: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves
  Available wherever books are sold.

Closing Challenge:
Dr. Brooks invites listeners to seek out “a profound moment of levity” in their next important conversation—redefining levity as any act bringing warmth or genuine connection, not just humor.

“It’s not just a book. It’s a skill set. It’s a movement.”—Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (46:46)

For more actionable insights, community, and resources, visit radicalcandor.com.

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