← Radical Candor: Communication at Work
Radical Candor: Communication at Work
I'm the 'Cool' Boss and It's Not Working 7 | 19
00:38:12
A Wake-Up Call to Chill Managers On Embracing Accountability
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- [00:01]
Ryan Reynolds
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- [01:03]
Kim Scott
Hello everybody and welcome to the Radical Caner podcast. I'm Kim Scott.
- [01:08]
Jason Rosoff
I'm Jason Rosoph and today we're tackling a question from the Career Advice Subreddit. The person who wrote in and identifies himself as a quote nice and cool boss, but quote in a bad way. This person wants to know how to become more strict after having established this easy to get along with Persona. I'll read a little bit of what they wrote. Quote so I'm a production supervisor and I've recently gotten into hot water because my boss says I am not respected by the employees because I'm too nice and worried about being cool. I'm not saying they are wrong, they are right. But when I went into the position with the mindset that if I'm relatable the employees would like me and go to bat for me. They do that occasionally, but they also slack off non stop and all seem unconcerned about me getting in trouble. How can I break this mindset for both myself and the employees? Because I really struggle with being stricter and meaner. I feel like I can just break the cycle. I'll be able to continue. It's that first step that's hard for me. Sincerely Cool in a bad way.
- [02:23]
Kim Scott
Ah, well, I have never been considered cool, but I have been told that I'm too nice for sure and I think that it's important to remember that. And I'm going to use I'm going to kind of distinguish between nice and kind. Your kindness is an asset. As a manager, there's no there's no reason why you can't be really kind and be respected and get shit done. In fact, your kindness is going to help you get more, more stuff done. So you want to make sure that you're, you are both caring personally and challenging directly. So let's, let's talk about it.
- [03:11]
Jason Rosoff
The idea of being cool or sort of nice doesn't have to be separate from accountable. I think your wordsmithing there is really useful, which is like our goal as, as a, as a boss is to be kind to each member of your team. But I think. And the instinct to want to connect with them on a human level. Right. To have a real relationship with each of the members of your team is a really good one. Right. That's the care, care personally dimension that you were mentioning, Kim. But without the challenge directly, the like, this person is going to wind up in what seems like, at least to us, like ruinous empathy. And then the risk is always that they are sliding toward manipulative insincerity. Because now it's not just because they care about their team that they're not saying anything. They're afraid to change their behavior even though they know it's bad for them and bad for the team because they're worried about losing their reputation as the cool guy.
- [04:13]
Kim Scott
And I think holding people accountable, remembering that that is actually an act of kindness to hold people accountable for their work. And this person said one thing in their email that I want to sort of highlight because the, one of the things that this person said is that, you know, the team slacks off non stop and seem unconcerned about getting me in trouble. That's not you getting in trouble or not getting in trouble is not the core motivation of your team. Your team is worried about getting either doing great work on the positive or, or getting in trouble for not doing great work on the negative. And so what you want to do is not ask your team to do good work because for you, they want to do good work for themselves. That's part of holding them accountable. And so they. It's really important to make sure that your team understands what's in it for them to do great work. And also that you as the manager understand that probably most of the people on your team want to do good work. I mean, there are people who really don't care. They want to slack off. But most people actually do want to do a good job in my experience.
- [05:33]
Jason Rosoff
Am I naive because over time it gets boring. Slacking off actually, like, yeah, it's just sort of. It's sort of uninteresting. I've worked in a lot of industries where the restaurant industry, for example, and some people are there for the wrong reasons, like because they think it's like an easy way to make money and tips are such a good game and all this other stuff. But those people inevitably burn out.
- [06:01]
Kim Scott
Yeah.
- [06:01]
Jason Rosoff
It's just no fun to be in that environment. They do not last. And so the people who actually last longer term care, they give a crap about doing a good job. And I think your point, Kim, is you can tap into that energy. Right. That that's available to you.
- [06:20]
Kim Scott
Yeah.
- [06:20]
Jason Rosoff
And in fact, if your team does have some people who are there for the wrong reasons, who don't actually care about doing a good job, like, that's important too. Because one thing that I know is true is that when someone is getting away with slacking off at a job, when they're getting away with doing less than great work, it diminishes the motivation of everybody on the team to do great work. Because you feel like, why should I bother if this person can get away with phoning it in day after day? Like, what's in it for me? So, so, like, it's actually diminishing the intrinsic motivation of other people on the team to do great work by not addressing the fact that you might have some people on the team who are, who don't care about doing a good job.
- [07:01]
Kim Scott
And it's not so if you're not holding someone accountable. You're. You're not doing them any favors because you're not helping them grow in their career. You are hurting everyone else on the team who is doing good work and is frustrated. They feel like a chump. Like, why am I busting my butt if so. And so is slacking off? And, and you're also going to hurt yourself because your team isn't going to get good results in the end. So it hurts everyone not to hold someone who's slacking off accountable.
- [07:34]
Jason Rosoff
Right. So I think the important reframe here is to actually to look at the real cost of not addressing this because, like, I think the proximal motivation from the way the person wrote it was like they sort of got in trouble. And so that, that's the thing that's bringing them to this is like they're, they, they don't want to get in trouble anymore. They don't want their boss to yell at them for. But like, that, that's good that that sort of made this person aware that something needs to change. But I think what you're saying to think in the right way about exactly what needs to change and why. And the reason why this needs to change is that it is completely unsustainable for you. Even if you weren't getting in trouble from your boss, it's miserable to work in an environment where you don't feel respected and people aren't doing good work like you or the other people on your team are going to burn out. So it's not just about getting in trouble. It's actually the reason to change. This is because if you want to be a good boss, a good manager to these folks, you have to create an environment in which people feel encouraged to do the good work that they're capable of.
- [08:45]
Kim Scott
Yeah. And I want to double click before we move on to talking about respect, because as you know, I have a lot of thoughts about that word. But one more thing on holding people accountable because I've been in several meetings with teens recently who've asked this question. So my guess is it's a lot of people had this question. There's a feeling that it is sort of quote unquote mean to hold someone accountable. And I just want to challenge that. It's not mean. The problem here is not that you're too, that this person is too nice, that they're too high up on the care personally dimension. The problem is that they're in the wrong place on challenge directly. And, and in the end that's not nice, that's not kind. So I just want to make that point again because it seems like it's one. It's a common misunderstanding that, oh, it's mean to, you know, it's like if you have a, if you were a teacher and somebody really turned in a lousy assignment, it's not nice to give them a good grade for a lousy assignment because then they're not learning anything.
- [09:55]
Jason Rosoff
Yeah. Or if you're a sports team coach, like, yeah. And you're, you're like, you've got people who don't show up to practice and aren't ready on game day and like their, you know, uniforms are dirty and all this other stuff and you're just sort of like, ah, whatever, like, who wants to be on that team?
- [10:11]
Kim Scott
Like, no one wants to be, no.
- [10:13]
Jason Rosoff
One wants to be on that team.
- [10:14]
Kim Scott
It's, it's not like it's mean to start a player who can't hit the ball if it's baseball or whatever it is you're supposed to do in that sport.
- [10:23]
Jason Rosoff
Exactly. And it's Also, you know, I don't think it is in that context. It's not mean to say you don't get to start if you don't show up to practice. Yeah, it's not mean. Like that just makes sense. And I do feel like this is the place where what you were saying at first, Kim, is so important, which is that there is some level of intrinsic motivation to do good work. And by holding people accountable, you actually create space for that to grow, that feeling to grow. Because think about the effect that that has on every other team member of the baseball team. Right. Which is like practice is important. This is really valuable. What I'm doing contributes to the overall success of the team. It matters that I show up. It matters. You know what I'm saying? Like, you're reinforcing this message. And for the person who's out there feeling like, oh, it was so hard to get to practice the other day, but I did. Like, I showed up, I did it. Like all of a sudden you're. That intrinsic motivation is rewarded by you saying the only way you get to start is if you show up to practice.
- [11:28]
Kim Scott
Yeah. And you're never gonna guilt someone into doing better work. Like you're not gonna say, hit the ball for me or show up on time for me or if you don't hit the ball, I'll be sad or I'll get in trouble.
- [11:44]
Jason Rosoff
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [11:45]
Kim Scott
That's just not gonna work.
- [11:47]
Jason Rosoff
At some level it might be deceiving because you might get short term or sort of like. I think what they were describing in their note was sort of like a slot machine type of result, which is like you pull the lever and you're really never sure if you're going to get that, you know, like working hard or slacking off. I think that the consistency of reinforcing the value of good work goes a long way to making it more likely that people will do good work.
- [12:20]
Kim Scott
Yeah.
- [12:21]
Jason Rosoff
Even though we're not coin operated.
- [12:23]
Kim Scott
Yeah. People really. They're not coined. And you don't want to. The intrinsic motivation of doing good work is real and you don't want to minimize that either, I think. But let's go ahead.
- [12:39]
Jason Rosoff
Yeah, let's talk about respect. Because that was the other thing. One of that was like the. What was motivating. And hopefully by reframing us a little bit, we can shift that motivation from a fear based reaction to maybe a broader picture of what a boss's job really is, which is to create the conditions in which people can tap into their intrinsic Motivation to do good work. But the other thing that this person was feeling, other than I got in trouble for my boss, is I'm feeling disrespected by my teammates.
- [13:16]
Kim Scott
Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's really. This is so hard because when a person becomes a manager especially. Well, at any point, really, there's this. There's this expectation that people will respect you because of the role that you have. And that is. That is a dis. That is an expectation that is bound to be dashed. Right. And so let's sort of think about the word respect and the definition of the word respect, because it has two very different meanings. One definition of the word respect is admiration for someone elicited by their abilities or achievements. And the other is unconditional regard for the feelings, rights, or traditions of others. So one is something you have to earn, and the other is something that we all owe each other that's sort of unconditional. And I think when it comes to being a leader, it's really important to figure out which definition of respect you're shooting for. And I think you should give everyone that unconditional regard, but you should be prepared not to get that regard in return, and that's hard. And the reason is that people love to hate their boss, especially if their boss used to be their peer or their friend, even. And so this is tricky. I just want to acknowledge that it's tricky. And so what you want to do is you want to, in my opinion, is you want to make sure that you are continuing to give everyone who works for you that unconditional regard, that you're not acting like some kind of arrogant jerk. And. And then in terms of the. The. The first definition of respect, this is something you have to earn. You have to earn people's admiration. And the. In. In the case of being a manager, it's not. The achievement is actually not your achievement, it's their achievement. Right. And so the question is, like, how can this person focus on getting more out of the team as a way to earn that first kind of respect? What do you think, Jason?
- [15:45]
Jason Rosoff
I'm thinking still about your point about not expecting unconditional regard for your humanity from your team. That. That is a. I. I'm going to come back.
- [15:56]
Kim Scott
Okay. Yeah. No, it's because it's a hard. I mean, I have found one of the things I say in radical candidate that people object to, and maybe. Maybe I shouldn't have said it, but in many ways, a relationship that a boss has with their employees can feel like a Lonely one way street. You have to give a lot of care, but you don't necessarily get to expect that you're going to get it in return. It's something that someone has given to you and you're now paying it forward. Hopefully someone has given it to you. Maybe you've only had bad bosses in the past. Yeah, but, but that there is something about becoming a manager that is hard. I mean, I've said it a lot of different ways. Like another way, another thing we've said a few times on this podcast is often being a manager feels like being a projection screen for everyone's unresolved Oedipal or authority issues. You like. It's. It is, it's a hard job.
- [16:57]
Jason Rosoff
I agree that, that, that it is hard. I think that like the reaction that I was having as BA was maybe at a more simple level, which is I don't think it like to be a boss doesn't mean that you have to be a punching bag. Right. That you have to.
- [17:15]
Kim Scott
No. And you shouldn't allow yourself because then people, people are going to treat you that way. They're going to treat other people even worse.
- [17:22]
Jason Rosoff
Exactly. But I think, I think you're right. Which is one of the things about being a boss that's important to recognize is that the job requires emotional labor. And I think this is one of the, this is one of the things that people are woefully underprepared for when they take on any kind of leadership role is that you are agreeing to do more than your fair share, quote unquote of emotional labor to help the team. But that's why you get, there's compensation. You know what I'm saying? There's a give and take. You get more institutional authority and power which gives you the ability to do different things than you could do before in the role that you had as an individual contributor. Usually there's monetary compensation and then there's a satisfaction that comes with helping with doing that labor. If you, if you, you can, you can enjoy. There is a way to enjoy it the same way that there's a way to enjoy, you know, debugging a really tricky, you know, code problem which most people would find mind numbingly boring or like draining even. Not just boring, but like it would be so frustrating that people would want to quit. I think those two things aren't seen as equivalent very often, but I think it is the work.
- [18:42]
Kim Scott
Yeah. Some people love sort of spending time thinking through having one on ones with people hearing about what's going on for them. And other people would rather poke a sharp stick in their eye than do that. I mean, one of the things that was going through my head as you were talking, my sister always jokes with me, you always have some strange song playing in your head. And the song that was playing in my head as you were talking, I went to, I went to an Episcopal school growing up and we had, we had chapel every single day and, and we sang hymns every single day. And my favorite hymn was Come labor on. And there's a, there's a refrain. I think it's, maybe I'm conflating two hymns, but there's a frame that's to give and give and give again. And that's kind of how I think the approach to being a manager is you got to be prepared to give and give and give again and not necessarily expect that, that you're gonna, you're gonna get a bunch of hugs. I mean there was one of my colleagues at, at Google, David Fisher one time carried this big sign to, to an offset we were having for all the managers. It was like managers need hugs too. You know, like it's, it's, there is, there's some emotional exhaustion inhering the job.
- [20:10]
Jason Rosoff
And just why it's so scary to do it alone.
- [20:13]
Kim Scott
It's lonely.
- [20:18]
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- [21:19]
Jason Rosoff
Before we move off of this topic, I think the other really important thing to call out here is that there's a trap that this person seems to be falling into when it comes to respect, which is that the way to earn respect is to be mean to people.
- [21:36]
Kim Scott
Yeah. Or to make them feel afraid.
- [21:39]
Jason Rosoff
Yeah. To be strict with them. And I think this is because when things are going wrong with a group of people, we don't have that many models for thinking about how to right the ship. And so it seems to me that this person is thinking discipline in the. In the sort of, like, corporal setting. You know what I'm saying? Like, the. Like, I'm punishing people for their bad performance is going to improve things. And it's like, I don't know what the exact source of this was, but, like, one of my favorite tropes about this is the beatings will continue until morale improves.
- [22:18]
Kim Scott
Yeah. Yes. Morale will never improve and nor will work if morale is bad. Another way to reframe this. The notion is that your job as a leader is not to punish people for doing wrong, but to paint a picture of possibility. There's a great book called the Art of Possibility, and that's your job as leaders to say, this is what great looks like. And so think more in terms of soliciting feedback from each of your employees to find out how you can better support them. Give them more praise. I know we're always, get it, give it. But it's worth repeating. Giving more praise and giving public praise than criticism and then not hesitating to pull people aside when you notice them slacking off and saying, this is not okay.
- [23:11]
Jason Rosoff
Yeah. Yeah. I think that that idea of, like, there's. Going back to our. The. The first topic, I think there's like, a conflation between what's nice and what's mean. Like, some. It's sort of like, there's a bit of a confusion here about, is it mean to hold people accountable? And the first argument we made is, no, it does not mean to hold people accountable. In fact, when you do that consistently and fairly, it actually creates the conditions for people to do really good work. And punishing people. Taking that a step further, punishing people for doing bad work is insufficient to build an environment where people respect you. They might fear you if you're meting out punishment for doing bad work. But when people are operating from a place of fear, they're often in sort of fight or flight mode, which means that there's no way that you're getting the best work out of them that they're capable of or that they feel really good about the work that they're doing. So I love your point about Know, shift your focus from pointing out all the things that are going wrong to instead pointing out the things that are going really well, but not hesitating to correct something that is off track.
- [24:29]
Kim Scott
And I think one of the things that, one of the reasons why there's this sense that it's being to hold people accountable is it can feel like a punishment. And sometimes there are concept, but there's a difference between punishment and consequences. If somebody doesn't get their work done in a day, that means someone else winds up having to do it. Right. And so explaining the consequences of what happens to the other people on the team, what happens to the company when you don't get your work done, is a place to start. And at some point you've got to let the person know what the consequences. I mean, eventually if they refuse to work, they'll get fired. They should know what the consequences are to them as well. And it may feel a little like I'm, you know, splitting hairs to say there's a difference between a consequence and a punishment. But to me, punishment feels arbitrary. Like I'm going to punish you because I can. Whereas holding people accountable and creating consequences for problems just means that you're doing a job that you've been hired to do. You know, it's, it's not a value judgment on you, it is you doing your job.
- [25:42]
Jason Rosoff
Yeah. And, and this person has a unique opportunity, I think, to set the tone here because they've made some mistakes. Right. They're recognizing that they've made some, some mistakes. And so they. One of the ways that you can shift from this idea, and I think this illustrates your point about punishment versus consequences. One of the ways that you can shift that narrative is by this. This person has the opportunity to acknowledge and say, I've made some mistakes. And the consequence of my making these mistakes has been, you know, my, my, you know, my manager has noticed and given me some feedback about it. You all have noticed. And, and, and I'm not doing my job. Correct. And, and I need to. And, and one of. And so like. But the most important consequence is that I need to acknowledge to you that I haven't been doing my job very well. Yeah.
- [26:36]
Kim Scott
So you're holding yourself accountable to begin with.
- [26:39]
Jason Rosoff
Exactly. Before you hold others accountable. And that's not a punishment because, like, when you do that, it's not for self flagellation. It's actually to set the example that once we know we've done something wrong, we have the opportunity to do it better.
- [26:58]
Kim Scott
Yeah.
- [26:58]
Jason Rosoff
And that you're taking that opportunity. And so it's a really interesting way, I think, to maintain the relationship, to strengthen, not even just maintain, but to strengthen the relationship with the team. Because most bot. Like a lot of, a lot of managers, I don't want to say most, but a lot of managers would make the mistake of punishing their team for receiving this feedback about their performance. Yeah, right. They, they would make it about, well, you got me in trouble with my boss. And so, so now, like, you're all getting the terrible shifts and you know, you know what I'm saying? Like, there, there would be, like, that would be a very. And it's sort of at a human level. It's understandable why you might want to lash out in that situation. But if you want to be a good manager, like, you have to do something different. And this represents a sort of unique opportunity to demonstrate what that could look like.
- [27:51]
Kim Scott
In fact, this could be a way to, to sit down with your team and explain radical candor to them. But, so one of the things that I recommend a person does when they become a manager, when they want to shift the culture on their team, is to tell what's that story in your. What's your radical candor story? What's that time in your life when somebody told you something that maybe has stung a little bit in the moment but stood you in good stead for the rest of your career? And tell your ruinous empathy story? What's that time when you failed to tell someone something because you were just trying to be nice or not hurt their feelings or not offend them and it actually had bad consequences for that person, it would have been better to tell them. And if you can tell those stories, and if for folks who listen to the podcast all the time, you've heard my story and my Bob story a million times, but for the folks who haven't heard those, we'll drop them in the show notes. But, but you can listen to my story, but don't tell your team my story. Tell your team your story and that will really help them understand what you're trying to do with radical candor. You're not trying to be a jerk. You're not trying to establish dominance. You're trying to create a collaborative work environment.
- [29:15]
Jason Rosoff
That moment of sort of public self reflection, holding yourself to account, I think has the potential of really changing the tone of the relationship that you have with the team because it gives you a really nice way to say, I've heard from my boss what they think I could be doing better But I want to hear from each of you what you think that I could be doing better to more effectively lead this team. And I think, I suspect that this person would likely be pleasantly surprised by the fact that a lot of people, even though he doesn't feel the respect from them, that a lot of people would lean into that conversation and offer some helpful guidance. It's very rare that I've been in an environment where someone takes accountability, like holds themselves to account and then solicits help essentially from their team to do a better job, that the team doesn't respond with genuine, with like a genuine interest in helping them get better.
- [30:24]
Kim Scott
And if one person doesn't like, then you know about a problem you have. And it's better to know than not to know. You know, if you have someone who's, who's going to be cynical and obnoxious, you're better off knowing than not knowing about that person.
- [30:41]
Jason Rosoff
Right. It doesn't even necessarily mean that that person is a lost cause or anything like that. But like, they might require a different approach to management than the people who are not cynical. Yeah, because I, you know, I don't know what kind of production that they do in this particular environment, but if it's some sort of like physical work or something like that, those environments can be really tough to work in and can breed cynicism. You know what I'm saying? Like that, that sort of difficult labor can breed cynicism, especially in this type of situation where we've waited, we've gone too long without accountability for, for the quality of the work being done.
- [31:21]
Kim Scott
Yeah. I mean, sometimes working with, you know, engineers who don't do any physical work at all, software engineers, they can also be pretty cynical and sometimes sales people can be incredible. Like the, one of the most cynical things ever said to me was this very senior salesperson. So I think, you know, no matter what the environment is, you're always going to have some skeptics and cynics and, and the skepticism can be really helpful actually. So. But it's better to know about it than not to know. I, so I think, I think what we're saying to this person, we're giving this person several bits of advice. Create kind of a shared story on your team about what radical candor is, what ruinous empathy are, why you're trying to be radically candid, create some shared vocabulary using the two by two framework. Explain to people what's obnoxious aggression and what's manipulative insincerity as well, and then you want to make sure that you're soliciting feedback, that you're giving praise, looking for things to, to feel gratitude and appreciation for. And then you want to give criticism and criticism. Some people don't like that word, but it is what it is. That's what you want to give. And these impromptu two minute conversations doesn't have to be some big thing, but you want to have these private 2 minute conversations with people and then you want to learn how to gauge how it's landing for them. That's all so simple and yet it's almost impossible to do. It's hard to do.
- [32:59]
Jason Rosoff
And I, and I think, I think you're right. Like I think the. Starting with the story and, and I think illustrating because one, I think one, I'm reading a little between the lines of what this person wrote. But I think one potential issue is that this person's laid back attitude comes across to other people as sort of clueless or unaware or they don't care or they, or careless. Yeah, that's another possibility. And I think to your point about sharing, taking some accountability, but sharing a story to help illustrate like I do, this was happening and I didn't do this or I, I failed to do something about it or this was happening and somebody else took action that really helped me by doing that. You actually those will help really illustrate. I think it's one thing to say I'm aware of like what's wrong? And it's quite another thing to give an example of where that awareness comes from. And I think those stories could be a really great point of departure.
- [34:13]
Kim Scott
Yeah, totally agree.
- [34:15]
Jason Rosoff
So I feel like we just did the tips. We normally say let's do some tips and then we say what you just said.
- [34:23]
Kim Scott
But I feel like let's, so let's recap the tips just to like make sure nobody missed them. So number one, share some stories, make yourself vulnerable and explain what's going to change, why you're going to be more radically candid. Tip number two, solicit feedback. Don't dish it out before you prove you can take it. Tip number three, give praise, give more. You know, it's the art of possibility. Some people are doing good work. You want to express appreciation for it. Tip number four, in these impromptu two minute conversations, give criticism. If some, if you notice someone slapping, slacking off or not doing a good job, let them know. Doesn't have to be any giant conversation. Series of impromptu two minute conversations and then pay attention. Step in. The fifth step is gauge how it lands if the person is sad or mad, show them you care. If they're brushing you off, you have to say it again even more clearly.
- [35:21]
Jason Rosoff
So with that, we're going to wrap up for today. For everybody who enjoyed this conversation or wants to learn more, maybe there's a couple of listeners out there who haven't heard Kim's Bob story. Head over to radicalcander.com podcast to see the show notes for this episode. Praise and public and criticize in private. If you like what you hear, please rate and review and subscribe to us on whatever platform you listen to podcasts and if you have feedback, please email it to us podcastadicalcandor.com we love receiving your feedback, especially the criticism, which helps us get better.
- [36:01]
Kim Scott
Take care everybody.
- [36:02]
Jason Rosoff
Bye for now.
- [36:03]
Kim Scott
The Radical Candor Podcast is based on.
- [36:06]
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The book Radical Candor via Kick Ass.
- [36:08]
Kim Scott
Boss without losing your Humanity by Kim Scott. Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal with script editing by me, Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff and is hosted by me still Amy Sandler. Nick Karisimi is our audio engineer. The Radical Cander Podcast theme music was composed by Cliff Goldmacher. Follow us on LinkedIn, Radical Candor the company and visit us@radicalcander.com.