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Radical Candor: Communication at Work
It’s Not Too Late: Getting Unstuck Mid-Career with Adrion Porter 8|1
00:42:33
Learn how to reframe mid-career uncertainty and take practical steps toward what comes next.
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- [00:01]
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- [00:28]
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- [01:00]
Kim Scott
Hello everyone and welcome to the Radical Candor Podcast. I'm Kim Scott.
- [01:05]
Jason Rosoph
I'm Jason Rosoph and we're very excited to welcome to the podcast Adrian porter, a speaker LinkedIn, top voice and the founder of Mid Career Mastery, a workplace consultancy dedicated to empowering organizations and their mid career and seasoned talent for today's new world of work. Adrian is the creator and host of Gen X Amplified, a top ranked podcast featuring conversations with seasoned leaders, which I've said seasoned twice and I wonder what what kind of seasoning do we put on leaders?
- [01:33]
Adrian Porter
I love it.
- [01:33]
Jason Rosoph
Gen X Amplified and our podcast both featured in a recent Forbes piece for top podcasts for managers and mid level leaders. Welcome Adrian.
- [01:42]
Kim Scott
Welcome Adrian.
- [01:43]
Adrian Porter
Thank you so much for that great introduction. Jason and Kim, I'm honored to be here. Huge fan of your work and love to have this conversation.
- [01:51]
Kim Scott
I'm so excited for this conversation. I was excited for many reasons. Right as we were getting on we discovered that you and I grew up in the same place and worked in the same mall.
- [02:02]
Adrian Porter
Oh yeah, the Mall of Memphis, Tennessee. The home of the blues Elvis Presley ribs, among other things. Yes, I'm born and raised in Memphis, Tennessee up and through till I went to graduate school here at Vanderbilt in Nashville. But that's crazy. I did not know that.
- [02:16]
Kim Scott
So I think I worked it was called Metal Crafters in the Mall of Memphis and I worked there. It must have been like 1985 I think was when I was working there and I read the Brothers Karamazov. Not a lot of people came in so I read a big book while I was working at Metal Crafters.
- [02:36]
Adrian Porter
I love it I worked there from 1990 through 92. Yeah. Mall of Memphis is no longer there, by the way. It got demolished years ago. My family is still in Memphis, Tennessee, so I go home every now and then. But they. That is a tidbit. Kim, I've been following your work. I'm a fan, but I did not know that we have a area code 901 connection.
- [02:55]
Kim Scott
All right, Jason, sorry we've excluded you from.
- [02:58]
Jason Rosoph
That's totally all right.
- [02:59]
Kim Scott
Down memory lane.
- [03:00]
Jason Rosoph
So I'd like to get us started in the conversation. Just, I'd love to understand a bit more about your origin story. I know you've told this story before, but I think it's important because I, I, I think it's really relatable. The clients that we talk to, I think many of them as part of the radical candor business, I think many of them are in their mid career and many of them are searching or trying to figure out what comes next. And so I think hearing a little bit about how you got started on this journey might help them relate to you.
- [03:29]
Adrian Porter
I love telling the story because I'm a storyteller and a story listener and a fan of stories. I mentioned when we were chatting about our connection with Memphis that I went to undergrad at the University of Memphis and I went over to business school, got my MBA at Vanderbilt. So I'm a Southern gentleman with a New York state of mind. I tell people. So after, after business school, that took me to New York and I worked for a Citigroup right out of business school. Then I worked for HBO for five years in New York, marketing for shows like Soprano, Sex and the City, the Wire. Also at the time, I'm a big Star wars fan, so this is great. Cinemax is also part of hbo and one of the big campaigns I got a chance to work on was that for the first time ever, in 2006, all six Star wars films were shown in HD.
- [04:12]
Kim Scott
That was something.
- [04:13]
Adrian Porter
So we aired it and my team was over that. I worked with Lucasfilms and so forth. So great marketing activities. Learned a lot from great professionals. Then we were about to have our first child in 2008, so we decided to relocate to Atlanta. From New York, I started working for Turner Broadcasting, specifically Cartoon Network as a marketing director. And I oversaw the marketing for Star Wars Clone wars at Cartoon Network as well. So I got a chance to stay at the Skywalker Ranch for meetings. It was an amazing experience, but. And the year I turned 40, I got laid off. So it was a messy middle moment and so that was the moment that I started self introspection and noticed that people around me were also navigating that messy middle. You know, I'm 40 and I have a wife. I had kids. But I started to think about what comes next. And I was feeling that malaise many people in their mid career journey was feeling.
- [05:09]
Kim Scott
Yes.
- [05:10]
Adrian Porter
But I start to ask myself, okay, a lot of this is normal. People in their mid seasons, whether mid career, midlife, or in the middle of a transition, we feel this sense of unwe. And so I wanted to figure out, how do I get out of it? And then what happened? I became a student of science again. I'm reading.
- [05:27]
Kim Scott
That's better than buying a little red convertible and.
- [05:31]
Adrian Porter
Exactly. And divorcing my wife.
- [05:33]
Kim Scott
Much better response.
- [05:34]
Adrian Porter
Yeah, no, no, I love it. So what I did in my mid-40s, I had to figure out my next next. And so I started consulting, speaking, thinking about all the years of experience that I had, the training, and then I figured out, what if this messy middle was one of the biggest myths we were ever told? That question struck me. I use this in my speaking in my workshops. A film that I watched at the time was one of my favorite films called the Curious Case of Benjamin Button, starring Brad Pitt and so forth. And there is a quote, there's a line in that movie that I still use to this day when he was reading one of the poems narrating to his child, and it was, it's never too late or too early to be whoever you want to be. There's no time limit. Now I'm watching this movie, I'm loving all the characters. But that particular line struck me at that season in my life. And so you know what? I should apply this to me, and I should apply this to people like myself who were filling this messy middle funk. And so like Gandhi, I want it to be the change you wish to seek. Right, Right. So I created a podcast, Gen X Amplified, to help people generationally like me amplify what I call the forgotten generation. Between the brilliant boomers and magnificent millennials, it's not about tearing down, it's about amplifying Gen Xers. But beyond that, I wanted to do something with more meaning. And I launched Mid Career Mastery to help individuals in their mid season of their careers. I do that to this day through speaking workshops. I'm working on my first book, by the way as well, so.
- [07:01]
Kim Scott
Oh, very excited.
- [07:03]
Adrian Porter
Yes. And we can talk about that later. Cause I'm, I'm, I've been. I got a 60 page proposal. I'm in the querying phases now and.
- [07:08]
Kim Scott
I got all kinds of thoughts.
- [07:10]
Adrian Porter
I know you do.
- [07:10]
Kim Scott
I'm glad you're writing it. The world needs your book.
- [07:13]
Adrian Porter
Jason, to your point, that origin story is the quintessential successful. Did the educational training, worked for some great brands, great companies, learned how to market stories. But then I was part of my own narrative. And so what I do now with mid career mastery and my framework, the mastery map, it's all about rewriting your narrative, rewriting your story, and becoming the master of your journey moving forward. How I define mastery is not reaching this intimidating final destination, but having ownership and authorship over your story and your journey.
- [07:47]
Kim Scott
I love the story of this poem that helped get you unstuck. When my kids, I listened to a lot of poetry when they were little and you know the poem A Dream Deferred. What happens to a dream deferred? Does it explode?
- [08:03]
Adrian Porter
Yes.
- [08:04]
Kim Scott
That was part of what made me quit my job and write Radical Candor because I was like, it's going to be too late. It's very interesting. I'm like, is that me taking owning my story or what was what was going on for me? How would you assess that moment there?
- [08:20]
Adrian Porter
Yeah, I mean it's. It's owning your story. It's being cognizant of the moments, magical moments that you perceive and experience is being intentional. And that's what the work that you all are doing. The work that I'm doing is really helping people become intentional with change. Whether it's how do you talk to individuals if you're a manager without being obnoxiously aggressive? Right.
- [08:40]
Kim Scott
Yeah.
- [08:40]
Adrian Porter
Or how do you get unstuck and rewrite your story? With what I'm doing, it's taking those moments being aware I'm watching a film, I'm enjoying Brad Pitt and Kate Winslet and Taraji de Henson and Benjamin Button. But a moment that I wasn't expecting initially struck me and the reason that it struck me that line is because I was going through my own story and it resonated. Right. So that was you acknowledging something that meant something to you and we were able to change course. So yeah, it was part of rewriting your narrative.
- [09:10]
Kim Scott
I want to get to your framework. But another question that I have for you about this initial story part is for me at this moment there were two narratives. One was like middle age. I guess I was like 42 or 43 at this time. And although I don't think that's quite middle aged because I intend to live to 105.
- [09:28]
Adrian Porter
So there you go. We can talk about that too.
- [09:32]
Kim Scott
Actually, it was pushing it. The other story that was in my head and had been since I was quite young, is that once I have kids, my ability to do great work is over. Like, that's a big lie. I just want to bust that myth. The thing that I found was that I did the best work of my life after the kids were born. So just sort of admitting to yourself that you had these stories in your head that didn't really agree with. And yet there it was lodged in my head.
- [09:58]
Adrian Porter
Right. And it leads into the framework during that season that helped me launch into career mastery and further later on create a framework is to figure out what are those best practices people typically do when successful in rewriting their narrative, when they were successful at getting unstuck. One of the great thought leaders I read and studied was Carol Dwick. Right. With mindset. And so that's the first pillar of my framework, which we'll talk about. But when I discovered the power of neuroplasticity and the. The ability for your brain and your neurons to rewire and to change over time, a lot of times we're not aware that we can do that. So we get stuck in those narratives that we tell ourselves. Right. I'm too old to start over. I'm too old to be successful. AI Is too much for me. But I had to start rewriting those narratives. No, I'm not too old to start over. I have enough wisdom and enough perspective and Runway ahead of me. Being laid off doesn't mean that I failed. It means that this is an inflection point to move into something more meaningful. Rewiring your thoughts and rewriting your narrative is the first part of getting unstuck.
- [10:58]
Kim Scott
I love it.
- [10:59]
Jason Rosoph
Did you spend any time reading the Stoics? There's something sort of stoic about your philosophy there, which is like the obstacle is the way seeing this moment of challenge as transforming it into an opportunity or taking the story that's in your head about what limitations you might have instead using that as motivation to challenge yourself to do even better or more exciting work in the future.
- [11:25]
Adrian Porter
No, that's a great point. Regarding stoics, I read a lot in addition to Carol Dwick. So we'll get into just philosophy of narratives identity. I'm a fan of Dan McAdams, so he's a professor out of Northwestern. So he popularized this idea of rewriting your story, internal stories, and narrative identity, which is part of narrative psychology, which is at the Heart of my framework. So I did come across many articles and this philosophy about the story that we tell ourselves since we were young shape who we are and who we are going to be, which is essentially part of the mastery map.
- [11:59]
Jason Rosoph
Let's dive into that. I feel like we're bumping up against it. Maybe it's just time to dive in. So starting with mindset. We're certainly big fans of Carol Dweck. There's a fundamental belief Kim has a quote in radical candor.
- [12:12]
Kim Scott
This is actually John Stuart Mill. Not my quote, but you know, everything that is great about man, meaning people, is that his errors are corrigible. But it's not enough to have data, you have to have discussion. You have to be able to make sense of the world around you. And that requires other people. And most of us require other people to help us change the mindset. But how do you do that? Like, how do you go from a fix to a growth mindset? Because it's easy to say, really hard to do.
- [12:45]
Adrian Porter
As I was going through my own journey then I started doing my work with speaking in workshops. I didn't have a codified framework at the time, but I was helping people change their mindset. I was helping people achieve new goals when they're in their mid career season of their lives and midlife. But I'm like, you know what? I need something tangible because I'm a fan of getting things done. I'm a fan of frameworks, and I'm, you know, business school. I need something that's codified. So I naturally started thinking about best practices and thinking about the science of transformation. And then it hit me as a marketer, I love alliteration. And so I thought about the mastery map. Because what happens when you typically are unstuck in the traffic jam of anything, right? You need a map to get unstuck. And so what I did, I codified what I call three pillars. Three proven pillars of transformation mindset, second meaning. And third is milestones. And I'll unpack that. So the pillar mindset, it starts there. That is about neuroplasticity, changing from where you are to where you want to go. Reframing. You ask the question, how do you get from a fixed mindset to a growth mindset? Reframing, limiting beliefs. You have to do the work. And when we do this in our workshops, we have people list out five to 10 limiting beliefs. Whether it's, I'm too old to do this, I'm too old to learn AI, I'm too young to be a manager. Like, we don't just focus on, you know, if you think about experience, I have three kids, I can't launch a business, whatever the case may be. Go to that positive reframe, exercise, think about the years of experience that you have, the skill sets, the superpowers that you attain, and literally go through a reframing, limiting beliefs. The mastery map starts with mindset, because you can't get to where you are unless you change how you're thinking, right? The second pillar is at the heart of the framework, which is meaning. And that's all about rediscovering your purpose and aligning what matters. This is where we introduce the science of narrative identity. We've told ourselves many stories since adolescence and adulthood, right? And the way that narrative identity, again, this is popularized by many scholars like Dan McAdams out of Northwestern. But a lot of it has to do with narrative psychology and helping people, whether they're midlife or dealing with mental awareness and mental health. I wanted to use it to apply to career transformation. A lot of times we tell ourselves stories and we shape the narrative of our past, present and imagined future. It's not just a list of facts, right? Born and raised in Memphis, went to graduate school, worked at Google, did a startup. But those are facts. But then how do we start to narrate those facts into a crafted story? That's where narrative identity comes into play. And that is about, okay, looking back, aligning your past, your present and your plan, future and connect the dots, right? Understanding that you have a story to tell to really establish something meaningful for you. And within the meaning pillar, there's an exercise called the Meaning alignment experience, which stands for max. First, you reveal your past patterns, your experiences, the things that shaped who you are, both good and bad. You then realign them to your present, your values, your purpose, and then you reimagine your future possibilities. Then the last pillar is milestones. That's all about re authoring your next chapter and setting those micro milestones, those micro goals. Because think about it, when we're in mid career or midlife, in the middle of any season, early on in our career, we have all these established external milestones. We get our first job, we get our first promotion, we may get married. Then later in life, you retire, you look forward to grandkids, but in that middle, it's like one long run on sentence, right?
- [16:18]
Kim Scott
Yeah.
- [16:19]
Adrian Porter
We don't intentionally establish those milestones. And that's where the problem lies. And so what the mastery map in that particular pillar does it helps us create intentionally those micro milestones, those micro goals. That's where the heart of the framework comes in. And it's really all based on neuroscience, dopamine rewards when it comes to milestones to move forward with getting unstuck and transforming.
- [16:42]
Kim Scott
So good. I love a good framework, and this is a great framework.
- [16:46]
Adrian Porter
So thank you. And it's. And it's all about the middle. You know, it's mid career mastery. Middle can mean middle of your career, middle of life, or the middle from where you are to where you want to go. So my entire brand is about really mastering the middle. Like, I just fell into it. And this is my mission, my movement. It's really important to have those codified pillars to help people think about, well, how do I change? Well, you change by changing your mindset. Then you tap into what's meaningful and purpose for you at this stage in your life. Then you start setting those milestones to help you move forward.
- [17:19]
Kim Scott
You worked with a bunch of really incredible people. I bet you have some amazing stories about how people use this framework to get unstuck. Because it's easy when you're in the middle to feel stuck. Like, yes, I had a job, I had a good job. I had these two babies, I had twins. But I was not happy. In fact, I was filled with rage in my job.
- [17:47]
Adrian Porter
Yes.
- [17:47]
Kim Scott
And every day I would come home and my husband would look to see if my badge was still on my jeans pocket or if I had rage quit that day. I remember feeling well and truly stuck. So how do you help people if they're in that moment where they feel like they have family or they have kids or they have somebody who's financially dependent on them, which is often the case when we're in the middle. And so you can feel trapped if you're in a situation that's filling you with rage.
- [18:18]
Adrian Porter
I live the story. I mean, I am the case study for it. So during that moment when I got laid off and we were about to have my son, then we had our second child in my mid-40s. And so I was. You talk about stress and feeling stagnant. I felt the weight. Not only myself, but many people that I work with feel that. And so we have them do a self inventory, Put the pain on the table, look at everything that you're feeling. Just, you know, acknowledge it, own it. Then let's walk through. Because for some people, they may be fine with understanding, yes, I have a growth mindset. I know that I can change. And some people may not or some people may already be in tune with their purpose. So we look at which pillar first is more applicable to their current situation. For some, it's all. There was one individual, she was an experienced mid level manager, but she was really feeling stuck because she was in middle management and she wanted to achieve a higher position, possibly as a senior director or C suite. And so what we started to do is that we first worked with mindset because she was challenged with thinking that her age was a limitation, that yes, she has experience and she has a lot of institutional knowledge, but she still felt invisible. First we focused on mindset. Yes, you feel that you may have peaked, that you're too old, but we reframe that to have her write out, she wrote out maybe eight limiting beliefs. Then we looked at what opportunities she did have and what are some of those skills and superpowers. And we saw some commonalities between she's not too old, she has wisdom, she has institutional knowledge. She was doing some things at her church that she really didn't think about how they could be applied in her current situation. So we totally went through a mindset reframe initiative. Then through that, she identified her key superpower, which was actually bridging generational gaps. And so what she started to do is think about how can I apply those skills and my superpowers of navigating and bringing people together. We started to work on bringing that to her current organization. And then we went right into the third pillar, acknowledging her superpowers and mindset reframe. She was enlightened to some of those superpowers of bridging generational gaps, navigating conversations and relationships. Then we established some micro goals in the short term, put together a program, a mutual mentorship program for your organization that she didn't think about before. Because we have a program through mid career mastery called Mutual Mentorship Mastery, where we put together Gen Zs and millennials with Boomers and Xers and try to solve some common problems. But with her, she proposed a mentorship program for organization. But that work wasn't visible to her initially because like many of us in the middle, many of us in the traffic jam of life, we're so busy that we don't take the intentional time to go through the work. And so by enabling, you know, work through me, we took the time and we worked through the mastery map and we mastered a plan for her to get more visibility and she's happier and she's actually en route to move up in her job. And if she doesn't move up there. She's definitely en route to go somewhere else.
- [21:22]
Kim Scott
Find another job.
- [21:23]
Adrian Porter
Exactly. That's just one example.
- [21:31]
Amy Sandler
Hey, everyone, it's Amy. And if you heard our recent episode with Frances Fry and Anne Morris, you know why Kim and I loved having them on? Their dynamic is incredible. And the way they work with individuals, with organizations, the way they balance trust and speed. They have this uncanny knack of diagnosing the right problem and then making concepts that are so important to us at radical Candor, like authenticity, logic, and empathy actually usable. And they bring that same warmth to their podcast, which is called Fixable. And they help real people, just like you, solve real workplace challenges fast. So if you're looking for practical, honest guidance so you can move fast and fix things, go check out Fixable wherever you get your podcasts.
- [22:24]
Jason Rosoph
One of the things that I think about a lot is what I learned from running a workshop. It sort of reminds me of the poem thing. Sometimes hearing somebody else's words. I was curious if there are any moments from your workshops that stand out in any of the pillars where someone said something or lit something up.
- [22:41]
Kim Scott
You had a eureka moment.
- [22:43]
Jason Rosoph
Oh, yeah.
- [22:45]
Adrian Porter
I'll give you, there's so many examples. I get a lot of validation for the work that I'm doing, which is always pleasing. I mean, you two understand it, because when you're trying to create change and change the world, which is the work that we're doing, we can be in our heads, but we're like, does anybody else get it? Or other frameworks correct?
- [23:00]
Kim Scott
Yeah.
- [23:01]
Adrian Porter
And so when we have those magical moments where it's validated.
- [23:04]
Amy Sandler
Great.
- [23:05]
Adrian Porter
And there are times where there's moments where like, okay, I need to pivot a little bit. Maybe it's not clicking. And so I also, I have a platform called fabulous over 40 on LinkedIn, which is a spotlight series where I highlight leaders over 40 who are making a meaningful impact on the world. There was one fabulous over 40 fireside chat I conducted with an executive at Fidelity. And whenever I facilitate panels, I do the personal theme song question. And so I asked this person if there was a song that would play that captures your story and your brand, that fully projects the brain of you. And what she did, she chose the song Unwritten by Natasha Bedingfield because she said she loves the song. And then she started reading the lyrics, and it says, today is where your book begins. The rest is still unwritten. When she said that, that was like an aha moment for me because it just validated my whole theme. And Thesis with the map and narrative identity that you're never too old to rewrite your story. And so with the help of her personal theme song and Natasha Benningfield in Unwritten, that case study is actually going in the book. So it was validation for me to hear someone acknowledge a song that resonated with her. Under the ecosystem of, you know, no matter where we are in life, no matter our age or stage, the rest of our story is unwritten. We have the power right now to reframe our mindset, tap into what's meaningful and purposeful at this stage of our career and lives and, and set new milestones to write the rest of our story. And so there, there are a lot of examples like that where people went through the exercise, went through the mastery mat, went through the meaning alignment experience came back, we share, and it validated. Okay, we're onto something. Many people in the middle seasons of their lives feel like they're in the messy middle. My mission is to reframe the messy middle to the magical middle, because the middle, yes, it can be messy, but this is also the most meaningful, purposeful, and magical season of reinvention, renewal, and transformation. You just have to acknowledge it and understand it. And Kim, you mentioned earlier, we're also in the longevity revolution, where we're living longer now with the advent of AI and health. If you're 45, 55, or even 60, you still can be in the midpoint of your career journey. Your work may look different in your 80s or 90s, but if you're doing something purposeful and meaningful, you. You have a longer Runway ahead. It is my job to understand that, yes, this is the magical middle, and this is from the point from where you want to go to where you want to be. I'm hearing people tell me that they're now mastering their own middle because they have full awareness of a new mindset and they understand what's purposeful ahead. It makes me feel happy and it makes me that I'm doing my job, makes me realize I'm doing something right, at least.
- [25:51]
Kim Scott
Yes, you're doing a huge thing right. I think also the milestones that you talk about are really important. It's important to take the next step, because if you had caught me when I was 40, 42, and I was on the cusp of leaving my corporate life behind and starting to write my book, I would not have admitted to myself or to you that I had this belief that I couldn't do great work after I had kids was like, that belief was A sort of internalized unconscious bias. You know, not only was I unconscious of it, I was in denial about it. And it was not until I wrote the book and I was proud of it that I was able to say that I believed that and I was wrong. But I almost had to prove myself wrong in order to admit that I had the belief. Do you bump into that like people who are in denial about what's going on in their own heads?
- [26:48]
Adrian Porter
Oh, yeah, all the time. I mean, we're naturally wired to defend against external dangers and thinking. That's why we do the work that we're doing. We've taken a time to kind of macro level look at some of the ways we can reframe those limiting thoughts and beliefs and have people realize a lot of times when we think about milestones, we think there's these huge, big, hairy goals, right? We get a little intimidated. What I do is that I take it back to the original definition of milestones. From the Roman days where they were.
- [27:15]
Kim Scott
Little markers was a 1 mile exactly.
- [27:18]
Adrian Porter
Not that far exactly, en route to a larger, further away destination. You have those mile markers on the side of the road. That is a milestone. So when we. So that's why when I talk about milestones, I talk about micro milestones. Start there. Especially if you're in this middle. What's a immediate micro milestone? Taking online course on generative AI, right? Prompting, learning to play the piano, going for a walk, putting together a proposal for your manager. Small steps, learning how to tell people that you have spinach in your teeth. Once you start achieving those micro goals, then that's where the science come in. You start to get that dopamine rush you're feeling that you're on track. Those I call milestones motivational markers of momentum.
- [28:04]
Kim Scott
Yes.
- [28:05]
Adrian Porter
And so again, I like those M's. And that just came to me. So it's serendipitous, right? When you start thinking of milestones in that way, that they're motivational markers of progress and momentum. Especially in the milestone desert of mid career, midlife, you start intentionally setting those goals. You would be more enthused and energized to get unstuck. It's so critical and important.
- [28:27]
Kim Scott
Love it. So I think you and I are both Gen X. You are not. Jason's a little younger.
- [28:34]
Jason Rosoph
I'm a little younger. I'm a Xennial, though. I was born in 1980, so I'm literally on the year that parades.
- [28:39]
Adrian Porter
Wait, wait, wait. So I have some news for you. A lot of times I go Through Pew Research. Based on Pew. It's born in the years 1965 through 80.
- [28:49]
Kim Scott
All right, Jason, welcome.
- [28:50]
Adrian Porter
According to Pew Research Center, Jason, you are a fellow Gen Exceptional.
- [28:56]
Kim Scott
Yes, Gen exceptional. I was born in 67, so I'm at one end and Jason's at the other.
- [29:01]
Jason Rosoph
Like, thinking about Gen X amplified. I listened to a couple of the episodes in preparation. Speaking of stories, we try to use these sort of generational markers as though they bind people together, but the variability within the group is much greater than the variability between groups. And I think one of the things that comes up for us often is radical candor across generational divides. We're telling a story, right, Saying there is a divide between the generations. That's not a fact. Yeah, right. One of the things I really appreciated about the way you conduct your interviews is you really get people to be human on your show. Like, they're telling real stories about their lives. A lot of the generational mumbo jumbo that we try to, like, wrap around, it sort of falls away because now you're. You're seeing a whole person. And having said all that, I do think there are some. There are some interesting things. Like late Gen X, early Millennial. I was being born in 1980 meant that I started high school with no computer at home, basically, like, no Internet. No. No computer at home. Finished high school, and I was online all the time. So, like, in four years, my life changed drastically. And I do think that there are some changes in the way that things work and happen. So I'm kind of curious. Are there any themes that have come out for your conversations with Gen Xers where it's, like, less about the generation and more about the experience of being alive in these decades that have shaped. That have shaped some of the challenges that they face or the ways that they respond to those challenges?
- [30:32]
Adrian Porter
Yeah, that's a great question, Jason. And I love this conversation because when it comes to generational conversations, some people can get so far, are into the, okay, Boomer millennials. All you do is eat avocado toast. And Gen Z, if you notice, and I mentioned this earlier, I, you know, wording narrative means a lot. That's why I say the brilliant boomers, magnificent millennials, because, you know, Gen X, we are the smallest generation out of the multi generations. You have 77 million boomers, 80 million millennials. You know, we're 65 million. But we do pack a powerful punch. And so this isn't about tearing down. This is acknowledging how you came of age does shape how you look at the world of work or perspectives as a Gen Xer. Born in 71. When I started working, you know, this, this was during the days of fax machines, memos. Forget the Internet. I mean, that was later on. Business school, I remember in business school we had a computer lab. We didn't have laptops. And forget social. So it's, it shapes, you know, how you view management. It shapes your perception of career mobility. You know, as Gen Xers, we're latchkey kids and we were told to be independent. I literally was a latchkey kid and I had an article in a post I wrote and I put a picture. I have a picture of me in the fifth grade. Yes. I don't know if you saw. It's on LinkedIn. You can see it in the photo. And I was, and I was the only child. My parents divorced and my mother raised me, but she worked. When I came home, I let myself in with the key. In fifth grade, I watched Flintstones and Popeye and made myself a P and J sandwich until she came home. So I was a latchkey kid. I spent a lot of time alone. Sometimes it was terrifying. But a lot of times those skill sets iterate for me as I, as I move into leadership. But anyway, I do believe the area that you came up in and came of age does shape perceptions. Right. We were told to wait our turn. The boomers were in charge at the time. So we looked at the baby boomers as the models of leadership and how they manage teams. Right. And so when it was our turn, remodeled that direction. But then millennials came of age during a different time.
- [32:31]
Kim Scott
Respect us.
- [32:34]
Adrian Porter
I didn't say that. Kim said. No, I'm just kidding. But it's truly. They came of age under helicopter parents from boomers. So it does shape perception. But the key is. Jason, you brought up a good point of how I tried to approach the show. Let's talk about your perceptions of the world of work. Why do you feel the millennials came in at 80 million strong and just push us out the way? Because again, we're the smaller generation. They were told, go for what you want, be aggressive. We weren't told that. We were told to wait our turn. We waited and waited and waited and then got leaked over. All of these things are important, but the key is understanding the why behind the action. And then we try to work together. The reason why for Gen X's is so important in the world of work with this new disruption, because right now, the ages that we are, we are either approaching C suite or at C suite or we're trying to figure out our next. We have to acknowledge there are some quintessential superpowers that we do have. Independence, leadership, crisis management. Right. Systems thinking. We also have to be very aware of the things that millennials bring. Right? Digital fluency, rapid iteration, social consciousness, and even the brilliant boomers. Right. Institutional knowledge, long term relationship capitals. If, as a Gen Xer, if you're in that middle between these two generations, how do you then look at that and be able to navigate together? We're in this disruptive world of work right now, especially with AI. How do we bring everyone's superpowers from the Gen Zs and millennials and the boomers to make sure that we maximize impact for the organization as a whole? That's the purview that I take with Gen X Amplified. It's about just making sure we put together all the superpowers across generations. I don't get into the generational bashing conversation because it doesn't help. And you know, we have more. We have more alike than we do. That's different.
- [34:22]
Kim Scott
Totally agree. I had a question for you.
- [34:25]
Adrian Porter
Yes.
- [34:25]
Kim Scott
If you talk to my mother, I think my mother would tell you that I was disrespectful, that I was not waiting my turn.
- [34:38]
Adrian Porter
Okay.
- [34:38]
Kim Scott
I wonder if it's not true that in every generation, the older generation always feels like the younger generation is in a hurry, and the younger generation is always primed to tell the older generation how they've screwed up the world. And I think that's okay because the older generation probably did screw up the world in a lot of ways. You know, hand raised here. One of the things I tell people when they ask about multigenerational workplaces is that if you're on the older side, it's your job to solicit feedback from younger people because they're seeing things with fresh eyes. And only by soliciting feedback and rewarding the candor when you get it, do you earn the right to share some of the wisdom. So do you think that that's sort of a universal human thing about being older, younger, or do you think it's dependent on what years you were born?
- [35:32]
Adrian Porter
Yeah. No. It's been going on since the beginning of time. You brought up so many great points, Kim and Jason. I mean, it's been happening since back in the 50s, right? You know, when the teenagers, the teeny boppers and the greasers and they're listening that. Oh, my God, that rock and roll music and Elvis, the older people were saying they were saying the same thing about the hipsters in the 50s.
- [35:51]
Kim Scott
Yeah.
- [35:52]
Adrian Porter
And in the 70s, I'm now like it's funny. My wife and I joke like I'm turning into my parents and grandparents. I have a Gen Z son. I find myself seeing crazy things like.
- [36:02]
Kim Scott
That just came out of my mouth.
- [36:04]
Adrian Porter
Like with the music. And it's funny like it all goes in cycles. Right. And so it's just a natural because what happens and it's actually a blessing and a good thing. There's a thing called wisdom, right. Based on experience and natural aging. You look at things differently. It goes in cycles. And I do think based on external factors of what you're exposed to when you come of age and what you're going through, it does maybe shape a little bit. Like for example, a lot of the people that I work with and I'm included, we're this sandwich generation where we have a lot of extensive caregiving responsibilities.
- [36:39]
Jason Rosoph
Right.
- [36:40]
Adrian Porter
And that's been happening.
- [36:40]
Kim Scott
We have kids and we have parents.
- [36:42]
Adrian Porter
Oh my God. Yeah. And we're squeezed in the middle. Right. Aging parents dealing with their own challenges possibly or opportunities. You're raising kids and you're also navigating your own personal and professional growth amid of workplace and massive disruption, amid of advent of AI, amid of political turmoil. And so depending upon the macro events that may be happening during that time, it can shape. But I think the through line is as you age, you do look at things differently. That's why the work you and your team are doing at Radical Candor is so important. How you communicate to your colleagues based on where you sit and hierarchy or where you sit on the age perspective means a lot because intuitively based on your age, you may not know the appropriate way to communicate to someone 20 years younger, someone now who's a Gen Zer. They may need a different type of communication than someone who was when I was a gen Xer at 20. You have to think about the times we live in. So when you're thinking about radical candor and giving feedback to someone as a Gen Z or in soon gen Alphas, it's possibly a little different because of the external macro events happening around them. Gen Z's, they went through the pandemic and came of age. They were out of school for a year. Everything has changed. We didn't go through that. They were not so that possibly shaped how they perceive authority, opportunities, how they learn. And so it's important to be mindful of that and how you communicate. There's a through line but I think there are some levels of change that happens based on the year that you born in, when you came of age.
- [38:21]
Kim Scott
Yeah, yeah. Such. I love the way you unpack that. I know our listeners are going to benefit from your framework and your wisdom. How can people who are listening to us right now find you?
- [38:33]
Adrian Porter
Thank you so much for the opportunity. So first, I'm very active on LinkedIn. I've been fortunate to be recognized as a top voice there. So I share a lot of insights on how to master your middle. So follow me at LinkedIn. Follow me at adrianporter.com, which is the home base for my workshops, my programs, listen to the podcast Gen X Amplified and then hopefully, you know, once my book gets published, you know, buy my book.
- [38:54]
Kim Scott
But this early on it took me four. I thought I could write it in three months. I hate to say hopefully you write faster than I did, but it took me four long, lonely years, but it was worth it.
- [39:05]
Adrian Porter
I'm glad to hear that. But yeah, so, but in the interim, definitely follow me on LinkedIn. Follow the work I'm doing.
- [39:10]
Kim Scott
Amazing. So we love the practical tactical tips here at Radical. So let's end with one thing you want everybody listening to do. What do you want them to do to take the first step towards a happy, healthy middle of your career? What's the one thing?
- [39:26]
Adrian Porter
That's a great question. So I will start with the first pillar. Reframe. Start now. This week, reframe at least one limiting belief that you have. Write down a story that you're telling yourself, whether it's about being too old, too late, past your prime, not skilled enough, too many family obligations. Ask yourself, is this really true or is this just a story that I'm telling myself? And if it's just a story, how do I rewrite a better story? Mastering the middle doesn't start with just changing your job or your situation. It starts with changing your story, your narrative. So that was the one thing I would ask your audience to do.
- [40:06]
Kim Scott
Love it, love it, love it, love it. Thank you so much. Everybody should listen to Gen X Amplified. Wherever you listen to podcasts, you can also join the Radical Candor community to get real time peer Support. Go to radicalcander.com community to sign up.
- [40:23]
Jason Rosoph
And if you want to check out the show notes for this episode, you can head over to radicalcander.com podcast. If you are a visual person, you can now watch our podcast. You get to see Adrian Kim and I have this conversation on YouTube and Spotify. As always, praise in public criticize in private. If you like what you hear, please follow this podcast if you're not already following us, and rate and review us wherever you're listening or watching. And if you do one thing for us, the most amazing thing you could do is share this episode. If you liked it, share it with a friend. And if you have any feedback for us or a question you want us to consider for a future episode, please email us@podcast radicalcander.com thanks everyone.
- [41:07]
Adrian Porter
Thank you.
- [41:09]
Kim Scott
The Radical Candor podcast is based on the book Radical Candor Be a kick ass Boss without losing your Humanity by me, Kim Scott. Episodes are produced with thanks to Podium Production Company with script editing by Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co founders Jason Rosoph and me. It's hosted by Amy Sandler. Nick Kirsami is our audio engineer. The Radical Candor podcasting music was composed by Cliff Goldbacher. Follow us on LinkedIn Radical Candor the company and visit us@radicalcandor.com Close your eyes.
- [41:49]
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Kim Scott
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- [42:46]
Adrian Porter
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