Muriel Wilkins (2:06)

Thank you so much. I am delighted to be here and excited to be here.

Kim Scott (2:12)

Really looking forward to our conversation today.

Muriel Wilkins (2:15)

Me too.

Amy Sandler (2:16)

We always like to check in, especially as an author. And obviously you've written before you have the podcast, but what was it that motivated you specifically to write this book?

Muriel Wilkins (2:27)

Oh my gosh. So first of all, I still sort of internally get my heart flutters when people even say author associated with my name because somehow I don't identify with that. Two books in. I really had no plans to Write another book. The last one was in 2013. I said I was one and done great, never again. And here I am. And quite frankly, it was an observation that I was making not only in my clients, but also about myself, around how to make some of the changes that we were trying to make or the development and growth that we were all trying to gain sustainable. And what I was finding out was that a lot of times we were very action biased, myself included, moving to actions, and yet six months later, we'd be right back where we were. And so I became curious around what that is and what I found out is what I write about in the book.

Kim Scott (3:20)

So.

Muriel Wilkins (3:20)

Good.

Amy Sandler (3:21)

Well, we will talk about hidden beliefs, but since you specifically talked about bias to action, which is actually something that, you know, Kim, I don't think I'm putting words in your mouth. I would say that you've. You would have a bias to action. And I think that's one of the things that has made you, Kim, successful in radical candor as a philosophy and as a company successful. And so before we get into kind of how it's a blocker, I'd love to just talk about, like, what makes. Why. Why are leaders biased to action? Like, where's the superpower in that? Before we talk about maybe what's. What's holding people back from that bias?

Muriel Wilkins (3:56)

You know, it's not to say that we shouldn't have a propensity to move to action. It's how we get things done. I think the issue is when that's all that we focus on, we potentially are not really being able to optimize what we can do. Because you know what I find particularly like folks like me, and it sound like Kim, as you talk about it, right? Like us high achievers, high performers, we are go, go, go, go, go. So when somebody says, or we tell ourselves we want to do something differently, we want to behave differently, we want to act differently, we want to exact some change, we immediately go to, well, what are the three things I need to do? And what the research has shown is that it's just as important, if not more, to also recalibrate how you think about what you do rather than just what you do. And so that's really where there's some dissonance, where you might be able to make some changes, but not long lasting, because as you know, the term the internal operating system goes, that isn't really aligned with what it is that you're doing, and therefore the cracks start to show.

Kim Scott (5:00)

I think also as a coach, it's something. Well, and also as a spouse and a parent, it's something I've had to learn. Like, somebody comes to me with a problem and I want to immediately, here are the three things you should do, which is even worse maybe than here are the three things I should do. And, and I've had to learn to, to listen and then try to understand, does this person want me to listen? Does this person want to tell me what they plan to do and get me to react to that? Or does this person want my. Because I, I jump too quickly to here's what you should do.

Muriel Wilkins (5:38)

When you're describing and in those questions that you're asking, Kim, what you're really trying to understand is what is the assumption that this person is making around what they need from me so that I can respond effectively? Right. Or what is the assumption that I'm making? You know, if we look at ourselves, what is the assumption that I'm making that makes me move really quickly to Let me fix that. Yes.

Kim Scott (6:02)

Yes. Yeah.

Muriel Wilkins (6:03)

And I'm in that same boat. You know, I remember my daughter once said to me, mommy, I'm actually not asking you to do anything.

Kim Scott (6:11)

Yeah.

Muriel Wilkins (6:11)

I'm just asking you to listen. Yes.

Kim Scott (6:15)

And it's, it's so interesting how when someone you love tells you something like that, how it really helps with work. Like, I can remember a time when my husband said a version of the same thing to me and it has really helped me in my coaching practice because every time I'm tempted, say, here's what you want to do. I can see Andy's expression and say, I'm not asking you to solve this problem.

Muriel Wilkins (6:38)

Right. I just want you to be present. I just want you to be a witness to me going through the problem.

Kim Scott (6:43)

I want you to listen. Yeah, exactly. I want you to love me like. And I want to love him. You know, I want you to care personally before you challenge directly. If we tie it back to radical candor talk.

Amy Sandler (6:56)

Yeah, I, I think it's really interesting just what the two of you are talking about because Miriel, when I was, was reading your book and coming at it from my more bias to self reflection and needing more, more action. So, you know, thinking about a lot of self reflection and sort of the perfectionism in terms of some of my own hidden beliefs. And then part of, I think the benefit of me working with someone who has a bias to action is finding that balance. And one of the things that I've observed and I'm curious to get your take on it, is When I've led focused listening or mindful listening, even in just a couple minutes, people's listening. Part of why that's hard for people is the solving the problem gets us out of the discomfort of what might emerge in this conversation. Right. Part of that bias to action is also, I think, at least certainly in my own experience and what I took away from your book is that it gives us almost a sense of more comfort with the uncertainty and the uncomfortableness of a conversation where we don't know where it's going where. What's your take on that?

Muriel Wilkins (8:05)

I mean, 100%. Right. And I think that when you said it gives us a source of. And you were saying. I thought you were gonna say control.

Amy Sandler (8:15)

Yeah, yeah.

Muriel Wilkins (8:16)

Because I think it's both. Right. It gives us a sense of comfort, but the comfort comes from a sense of control. And what is it that we're trying to control? I think what we're trying to control is to make sure that we get one, if not all three fundamental human needs met. The need to feel worthy, the need to feel like we belong or are connected, and the need to feel safe. Right. And so if we go back to the example of my propensity. Definitely. Right. Left unchecked to somebody comes up with a problem and I'm automatically like, let me fix it. Really. It sounds like it's about the other person, but it's not. It's about my discomfort with things being upended and what if everything goes wrong? Right. Which would then makes me feel unsafe. So let me try to preempt it before it actually happens. But that is all up here. That's all a belief and assumption and a narrative that I'm telling myself unconsciously, subconsciously, about the simple, you know, story that this person's telling me about their day and how things didn't go well, you know.

Kim Scott (9:28)

Yes.

Muriel Wilkins (9:28)

If that.

Kim Scott (9:29)

Yeah. And identifying those beliefs is, you know, it's like the, the abc. There's the something happens. You have a belief about that thing that happened, and then you respond in a way that creates consequences.

Muriel Wilkins (9:43)

Yeah.

Kim Scott (9:44)

And sometimes those consequences can be devastating. And. And you realize that the consequences did not come from the activating event. It came from your belief about the activating.

Muriel Wilkins (9:56)

Exactly, exactly. So again, it's not about, you know, not moving to action or not being self reflective. It really is integrating all of it. Right. So that your actions are aligned with the assumptions that are actually going to help you get to whatever outcomes you desire. So there, there's sort of integration along the whole chain. Right. The whole value chain that you present.

Kim Scott (10:20)

Right.

Amy Sandler (10:20)

Well, I think that's one of the great things about the book is that you kind of first of all make explicit what's happening subconsciously for many of us, but you also give us a path forward. So first of all, can you just explain, we're talking about limiting beliefs, but you talk about these ideas. Hidden blockers.

Muriel Wilkins (10:36)

Yeah.

Amy Sandler (10:36)

So both the word blockers, the word hidden and hidden blockers, I think each of those have some, some heft to them. Can you describe that phrase?

Muriel Wilkins (10:44)

Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, we've already chatted a little bit about what beliefs are. Right. There are assumptions I think about, you know, when we pull together a business plan, or as we're talking right now, it might be the end of the year, we're thinking about next year and our budgets and our strategies. Well, what goes into that? There are certain assumptions that go into it. Do we actually know those things are going to come true? No, we don't. Right. Like they are informed guesses, quite frankly, about what the future holds. And we do the same without even knowing it with anything that any action that we take, any behavior that we have. And so why do I call them hidden blockers? As I mentioned before, I was noticing with my clients that there were certain things, my coaching clients, there were certain things that they wanted to achieve. They were typical. I want to be able to lead at scale. I want to be able to inspire and motivate my staff. I want to be able to have, you know, work life balance. I want to be able to not feel as stressed or as frustrated or as comfortable as I feel. I had a client say this yesterday. I don't want to feel as anxious as I do in the workplace, even though she's getting the results on the external. And when they were moving again, right, to like, what do I do? It was short lived. So what I became curious about is what holds them back from being able to do that in a sustainable way. And when I looked across 300 of my clients, so they were a sample, 300 of my clients from the past 20 years, I wondered, were there any commonalities in the assumptions that they carried that kept them from doing the very thing that they wanted to do, that they had identified as what it meant for them to be an effective, successful leader. And lo and behold, there were seven that surface to the top, which is what I call the seven hidden blockers. Why hidden? They actually have been so key to our success that they have become habits that we're not even conscious Of. And so. And they. They sort of elude detection because they sort of want to stick around and continue to make us successful. The issue is that the definition of success has now changed. And so really, it's uncovering those.

Kim Scott (12:44)

So what are the big. I have to ask, like, can. What's. Of the seven, what's your. What's the one that resonates the most for you and then for me? Yeah.

Muriel Wilkins (12:53)

Oh, my gosh. I mean, like, right now, I have to say, of the seven, the one that is, like, popping off like crazy because it's the end of the year and we've got a few more days is. I need it done now.

Kim Scott (13:05)

Yeah. Yes.

Muriel Wilkins (13:08)

And by the way, I don't want anybody else to have that belief.

Kim Scott (13:13)

Doesn't have to be done now.

Muriel Wilkins (13:15)

Right.

Kim Scott (13:15)

But I am literally the year.

Muriel Wilkins (13:18)

There's this, like, you know, again, even though I wrote the book on this, I'm a work in practice and it never ends. So I had to stop myself, like, Muriel, what is happening here? And I recognize that I have this really fear, right. Underlying it, of things are not going to go well if I start the year off with all these loose ends still open. Like, where did that come from?

Kim Scott (13:44)

Yeah.

Muriel Wilkins (13:45)

And I literally had to reframe in my mind as I. Because I went through this yesterday. I was like, okay, this is. I'm, like, having way more anxiety about this end of year than necessary. And I'm, like, sending out all these emails, and my chief of staff was like, what is wrong with you? You know, And I'd say, Muriel, January 1st is just the 366th day. Yeah, right. Like, back to Oliver Berkman's management time book. And that sort of was a reframing around time and what all this means. But for me, that. That belief, I need it done now, is alive and kicking. Because there was this. This fantasy that I should get it all done by a certain time.

Amy Sandler (14:25)

And it's so interesting because it's also. It's an individual fantasy, but there's also this collective quality to it. I think we kind of reinforce each other. We're recording this at the end of 2025. The podcast will be distributed towards the beginning of 2026. So I'm just curious if your future self, Coach Muriel, like, when you're listening to this in 2026, like, what would you want future Muriel to say to current Muriel about that? It has to be done.

Muriel Wilkins (14:53)

I mean, future Muriel would say exactly what current Muriel this morning said to herself, which is, it's okay. And Everything's going to be okay. And if something does not get done by X time, it'll be fine. Right. And trust that the things that actually need to get done by two days from now are going to get done. Don't worry.

Kim Scott (15:17)

I love that. That. I mean, and that trust is so essential. I think for me, like, a turning point in my career was when I threw away my to do list and decided. And the thing I told myself was, if. If you don't drop a few balls, you're not working on the most important things. Like, if you're keeping all the balls in the air, like, you should be dropping some balls. And then maybe sometimes I drop the wrong balls instead of a to do list. But it's. We can be. We can really be tyrannized by our to do lists.

Muriel Wilkins (15:49)

Yeah, but what's. You know, what's interesting, too, around this scenario that we're sort of unpacking is it's really not a concern about the things getting done. It's a concern about when I come back feeling out of control, right? It's like, and. And I know where it comes from, right? Like, my. My family always is like, oh, my God, like, every time we go on a trip, I'm like, the house has to be cleaned before we leave. They're like, why? Nobody's gonna be here. I said, because we really don't want to come back to a mess. Like, it's just unsettling. They're like, what is unsettling about it? But where did that come from? Right? Like, I did not make up that story. This is how my mom was, you know, this is how. This is what she was like. You do not leave the house a mess. And there was also a story about work. You get. And I write about it in the book. You get all your work done before you go out and play. That is what led to my success earlier. I had to do a complete reshift around midlife where the work became so much it would never get done.

Kim Scott (16:47)

You'll never go out.

Muriel Wilkins (16:48)

So I would never play. I would never play. And I was like, oh, no, I actually need to play first and then get the work done. Or I need to work this much and then play and come back to the work, right? And that is a reshift. And so this. So what is popping up for me now is that old script. And I've got to remind myself of the one that actually applies today, not the one that applied when I was in the third grade. You know, trying to. Trying to Win the spelling bee.

Kim Scott (17:17)

So smart. You know, it's interesting, there's. There was a line in Andy Grove's book, High output Management that seems simple, but, like, was eye opening for me. And he said, my day is over when I am tired. I'm like, oh, you can stop working when you're tired.

Muriel Wilkins (17:35)

I mean, as you should. Right. He definitely understood diminishing returns because.

Kim Scott (17:41)

Yeah, exactly.

Muriel Wilkins (17:43)

The day is over whether you like it or not. Quite frankly, when you get tired, you might still be at your desk, but no work is happening.

Kim Scott (17:49)

Yeah, yeah.

Amy Sandler (17:59)

Muriel, we'll get into the top seven. I don't want to leave our listeners, you know.

Kim Scott (18:04)

Yeah, there's more hanging there.

Amy Sandler (18:05)

I want to get into them. But what I really love about your reflection and thank you for sharing, I love that idea of work in practice, which I love that phrase, as we get more skilled at this, that we might still have the story, we might have the response, we might have the pattern, but our ability to notice it and to respond and shift becomes much more agile, becomes much more efficient. So you, you had the thought and then you were able to speak to yourself as coach. Muriel, the other thing that I observed is that you had your chief of staff checking in and what's happening. So what are some of the tips that you have for folks listening and how did you build that muscle of noticing the story and have people around you kind of helping call out the story when it's, when it's happening?

Muriel Wilkins (18:51)

Yeah. I mean, first of all, you know, I will self admit that it's not like I've been like this for a very long time. I probably have spent the majority of my time not being aware. And I think that's where most people are. When I work with coaching clients, it's not like they come knocking on my door saying, hey, you know what I need to really work on as a leader? I need to work on my beliefs. Like, they're not saying that, but what they are presented with, which is most of us, is that they're experiencing some type of dissonance. Right. Something feels off. And it's either what's happening on the outside feels off, you get some feedback that you don't like. You're not getting the business results, your team is not doing the work, you're not able to lead at scale, you're not. Right. Like all the things on the outside, or there's something internal that feels off. I feel frustrated, I feel angst, I feel uncomfortable, I feel malaise. I feel something. Right. So there's external Cues. And there are internal cues in the situation I just shared, you know, I definitely was having my internal cues. And then my chief of staff, it wasn't like she was like, are you okay? She just was like, what is going on? Like, I'm getting 10,000 emails from you, right? And that was enough for me to say, oh yeah, like, what am I doing? So I think the first place to start, quite frankly, and that's why I call it a work in practice, because it's a different way of being, is to be curious, right? And the curiosity is very simple. It's not to go straight to like, what do I do, what am I solving? It's to be curious around what is going on, right? What is going on? What, what is going on? That there's this dissonance that I'm experiencing again, either within or with something on the outside, a goal, et cetera. And the place to start around what is going on is to ask yourself and be curious around what is it that I'm thinking about this situation? And that's the little difference. So it's building that muscle which it can feel like many people are like, oh my God, I don't have time to do that. I'm like, it doesn't take time. Like, literally it is, you can do this in motion, right? But when we think about it, that is what the whole practice of, you know, mindfulness is about. That has been presented by not everybody, but by many in what feels like this, like, very complicated thing to do. And it's not. It's literally just be curious about what's happening before you move to doing anything about it. Right. If at all.

Kim Scott (21:22)

So good, I'll give you an example and tell me if this is what you mean. But so after, after I had kids, it seemed impossible to me to get home by 6 o' clock for dinner. That just like, that was not in my bag of tricks, of things I learned how to do in my career. And as a result, I was often a little late getting home later than I wanted to be. And, and so what I did was I said, okay, every time I'm late, I'm going to say what caused me to be late? What was my belief about that thing? And then, and then, how can I not be late next time? And invariably it was like I would get an email and I would like, just one more minute. I would get whatever the thing, I would, somebody would call me and I would respond. Somebody would stop me on my way out of the office and I didn't know how to say. And basically, the belief was that I had no agency to say no to these things that were coming. And so what I wrote on a post, it, you have two legs and a butt. You can walk out of the office. You know, and that was every time I was tempted to, like, you know, I just told myself, you have two legs and a butt. Like, you are physically capable of walking out of this place.

Muriel Wilkins (22:39)

Yeah. I love that so much. I love that so much. Because what you named is one of the seven hidden blockers. I can't say no. And what I love most is the reframe that you created around us, which is what's important, right? Like, you have to own whatever the reframe is. So, like, what might be the right reframe for me might be different for you. That's why working through the process yourself is important. Yeah.

Kim Scott (23:00)

Yeah.

Amy Sandler (23:00)

Kim, do you want to give the. The Russian version of sun blocker?

Kim Scott (23:04)

So there were many, many things, including not being able to get home in time for dinner that I haven't been able to do because I can't say no. I'm like, I would be burnt out. I would drink too much. I would.

Muriel Wilkins (23:14)

Yeah.

Kim Scott (23:15)

And when I was working early in my career and I moved to Moscow in 1990, and my boss said, you are Gospaja da, which means miss. Yes. And he said, it causes so many trouble. You gotta stop it. Gospaja. And every time I would, like, have 30 more things to do than I could possibly do in a day, he would say, gaspaja da strikes again.

Amy Sandler (23:43)

The other thing that's really helpful about that is that once we know, like, I know that about Kim, and so it creates. There's some freedom for me, as someone who works with Kim, to name that just in the way, Muriel, I heard you talking about with your chief of staff. And so I think it really helps, not only ourselves, but when we empower those around us to almost a little Jerry Maguire, like, help me. Help me help you hold myself accountable. The other thing that I want to reflect on that for Kim. Kim, for me, though, you have two legs and a butt. It's, like, very active.

Muriel Wilkins (24:15)

Like, for you.

Amy Sandler (24:15)

You don't have to just be like, I'm going to say no. It's like, you're going to do it in a way that actually is your language. Like, you're physically.

Kim Scott (24:22)

I know I can't say no, but I can say, I have two legs and a butt. I can walk.

Muriel Wilkins (24:26)

You know? That's right. You could walk. Right?

Amy Sandler (24:28)

Which.

Muriel Wilkins (24:29)

Which underlying that, like, the way I interpret that is what you're telling yourself is, I have a choice here. I'm making a choice versus what you said earlier, that you felt you had no agency, Right?

Kim Scott (24:38)

Yes.

Muriel Wilkins (24:38)

No choice. And that's, again, it's. Whatever the reframe is, that's gonna work for you. And you know what, what is, like, fascinating to me is as business people and the folks that I work with, I mean, I own my own business. Right. We do this all the time when it comes to our businesses. Like, we are retail. Like, well, what were we thinking about when we decided to do this? And what would need to be true in order for this deliverable to happen by this time? What are the assumptions? You know, we. I know you. We've had consulting experience. Like, what's the hypothesis we're making? Right.

Kim Scott (25:12)

Yes.

Muriel Wilkins (25:12)

But then here we are, and we have literally an organizational system at our disposal that we could practice this stuff on all day long, and we don't.

Kim Scott (25:24)

Yes.

Muriel Wilkins (25:24)

You know. Yeah.

Kim Scott (25:26)

I had another moment with. With my thera. Now you're. You're pulling all my confessions out of. With my therapist. I had started this company. I was raising lots of money. Like, things in general were going well, but I couldn't do these very simple things for myself. You know, I couldn't make myself exercise, for example. And my therapist looked at me and he said. He said, you seem like the kind of woman who gets what she wants. Why can't you get this? And it was like this. The belief that he was poking at was. I felt like I wasn't allowed to be the kind of woman who gets what you like. He was saying that as a positive thing. And I realized I had this little don't be selfish kind of gremlin on my shoulder. And I realized it's. It's not selfish for me to, like, get enough sleep and exercise.

Muriel Wilkins (26:17)

Yeah. What's important here for all of us. Right. Is to not label any of the beliefs. Like, I can't say no, or I can't. You know, I can't be selfish as bad.

Kim Scott (26:29)

Yeah.

Muriel Wilkins (26:29)

Because they weren't bad. Like, they have served you well up until a certain point or. Or maybe just not in this context. So even as we were working through the book title, one of the very high on top possibilities was letting go of the beliefs. And I was like, no, we're not saying letting it go. Because you know what? There are times when you have to say yes. Yeah. There are times when I do need to get it done now.

Kim Scott (26:58)

Yeah.

Muriel Wilkins (26:59)

There are times when it isn't okay to be selfish. So it is more around expanding your set of beliefs so that you can meet the complexity of your life and your leadership and everything that you're dealing with, rather than just hanging on to one and applying it universally across everything. And that's really. That, to me, is what agency is. Right. Like, I now have a choice around how I'm going to respond. But what really catalyzes that choice of action is the choice of belief that I have that can then energize it and fuel it and move it forward 100%.

Amy Sandler (27:39)

Muriel. So I heard. Got to get it done now. Can't say no. Tell us about the other five hidden blockers.

Muriel Wilkins (27:46)

Okay. Your top five.

Amy Sandler (27:47)

I know there's a lot of other ones.

Muriel Wilkins (27:50)

Okay. So I need to be involved. Is a big one. That one pretty much gets particularly in the way of leaders who want to lead at scale. Right? Yeah. Because it kind of stunts their level of engagement. We've talked about. I need it done now. I know I'm right. Is a big one. I can't make a mistake. If this one was surprising, if I can do it, so can you. I can't say no. And the last one, which is probably the hardest chapter that I had to write, I don't belong here. And this is not to say that these are the only beliefs. They're the ones that just bubbled to the top when I looked at my clients. So sometimes you can have all of them. Sometimes you can just have one of them. They're a place to start. But really the invitation is to just explore what other beliefs, if not these, might be getting in the way when you're not getting to the outcomes that you desire.

Kim Scott (28:47)

Those are. I mean, I almost got a little weepy as you were. Like, I can think of different stories for each of those. Like, I'm guilty of all those seven or not guilty. But I have fallen prey to each of those so many times. So helpful to. To just give words to them.

Muriel Wilkins (29:04)

You know, I came up with the seven. We had sort of had decided on them. And then I started actually writing the book. Right. And. And I literally wrote this book between 4 and 7am Right. That was like my window of writing. And I worked through each chapter, and I would spend a couple of weeks on each chapter, finish it, and move on to the next. And going in, I was like, oh, I know which two I have. Right. They were. I need it done now, and I need to be involved. Like, these are my big two. And every time I would Finish a chapter. I would stop and I would breathe, and then I'd be like, damn it, I have manifested this one, too.

Amy Sandler (29:46)

If they're not watching the video, the gesture, you just.

Muriel Wilkins (29:49)

Right. The gesture I just made. I mean, it was just like, you know, it was truth telling. Like, I just had to be honest with myself. Like, yeah, Muriel, you know, like, walk the talk. You. You sometimes think you've got it all under control, but you don't, and it's okay. Right? Because it was both a gesture of, like, man, like, I have this one too. But it was also. Which is a reframing for me. It was also a. Oh, okay, that's. That's good, right? Like, the fact that I'm realizing and noticing it, you know, and. And that is a part of it is the noticing. You can befriend it, you know, so that you recognize it. Now that I recognize it, I can know when it's going to. I can see it when it shows up, and then I can decide if I want to do anything about it.

Amy Sandler (30:32)

For someone listening, what's their first step of, like, how will they even start to unpack that this is what's happening? Whether they're working with a coach or just, you know, with the book themselves? Like, where would they actually get started?

Muriel Wilkins (30:46)

So the first place is to even just uncover that something is going on. Right? So this isn't just for the, like, oh, you know, just start working on something. Like, what are you working on? And so, as I mentioned before, it's. You've got to notice if something is off, right? If everything's fine, then keep going. It's working for you. You know, if. And so it's something is off again, either on the outside or on the inside. So that's the first place. And can I pause you on that, Muriel?

Amy Sandler (31:12)

Because there were some stories that I loved that it was like somebody might come in because they were told to get coaching, but they might not think that things aren't fine. Oh, it's working out great. The clients are really. They think I'm really curious and, you know, the leading the team, we're getting the results. So, like, I'm so curious for someone who maybe thinks things are fine, but.

Kim Scott (31:34)

Things?

Muriel Wilkins (31:35)

Yeah. I mean, how do you know?

Kim Scott (31:37)

Not around them.

Muriel Wilkins (31:39)

Sometimes it's just, you know, sometimes. No. I have many people like that, right? They're like, everything's fine. Like, why am I even working with a coach? Like, I don't get it. And I'm like, yeah, I don't get it. Too. Like, let's figure it out, right? And so let's get some feedback, you know, see what they have to say. And here again, ultimately, you have to decide if there's dissonance. So if I have a client who looks at the feedback, which I have had this happen where they're like, I don't want to do anything about this. I don't want to do anything. I mean, I mean, I had somebody I worked with where the feedback was just. He cuts people off in meetings. He is condescending. He always shuts the conversation down. And he just said, literally, he said, I'm fine with that. And I was like, okay. We worked through it different angles and, you know, by month two, I was, I was like, listen, we can have coffee and be friends, but we don't need to do this. Like, if you don't want anything differently, don't do anything differently. Yeah. So there is a level of readiness, of wanting to address whatever is off, whether it's the feedback, the outcomes, etc, and that is where, you know, coachability comes into play. So there's a quote, I think it's in Buddhist circles where they say the teacher appears when the student is ready. Right. It's the same here, you know, so part of this is not a everybody must do this. You have to be ready to do it, and not everyone's ready to do it. You know, I have some clients that I work with where we never get to beliefs. Like, we're staying at the tactical, like, let's color code your outlook calendar, because that's where we need to work around your time management rather than the belief behind it. But so the first place to start though is, is there something off and do I actually want to address it? There has to be that motivation. And then it becomes, okay, if I do, then the first place is what is it that I'm believing about what's happening or what I'm doing that's leading to that outcome that's off? What is without judgment? You know, what am I thinking? So what does that sound like with my client, for example, the one who was shutting people down in the meetings? And I have another story like that that's in the book. And his belief was, I know I'm right. You know, this was Philip in the book. It was more the question of what is it that I'm thinking as I'm interrupting people in that meeting. Right. And with Philip, he said, well, I. Like, I know the answer. Like, why are we wasting our time going around in circles and circles And I was like, guilty. I, I get it. And the issue is you also told me that you want your team to build the capacity to be able to give the answer themselves. And so that belief driving you is not serving that goal. Right. What would be the reframe? So the first place again to answer your question is to go back to like, what is it that I'm thinking about, the thing that's leading to this dissonance? That's the place to start before you move to what can I do about it? I don't see it as my role to get them there, you know, I'm not attached to, oh, they've got to see the belief and then get to the place where they reframe it, et cetera. I see my role in mirroring the process that then builds their own capacity to be able to coach themselves. And so just in the same way that I said to you, the place to start is to be curious and to ask yourself the question, what am I thinking about what's happening here? I mirror that. To them, I'm the external coach and if I do it enough times and they see that it's helping, eventually. This is how I know I'm typically at the end of a coaching engagement is they'll come and they'll be like, oh, this happened, this happened. But, you know, I already know what you're going to ask. And I'm like, oh, you do? Okay, perfect.

Kim Scott (35:40)

Tell me more success.

Muriel Wilkins (35:42)

We're done, right? You have the capacity to do this myself, like, we're done. And I. And so that's, I think, the best thing you can do. What you don't have to be an executive coach, you can be a manager, a leader, a peer, a parent, a friend, is to mirror the process. But here's the thing, right? This is why that little piece, how do you now do this with others? Is the penultimate chapter in the book. I don't start with that because everybody really wants to go to how do I use this on other people? No, no, no, no, no.

Kim Scott (36:16)

You're ability before you give it.

Muriel Wilkins (36:18)

That's right. Your ability to coach others, your ability to transform an organization is capped by your ability to coach and transform yourself. Right? It just doesn't work. And so I go back to, you can build that muscle to use your words on yourself. And once you've built it on yourself, you can then mirror it right with others and guide them through the process, if you will.

Kim Scott (36:48)

That is so true. It was a time in my career when I decided I had to Stop drinking. I was just drinking too much. And I would make a decision in the morning. I'm not going to have a drink tonight. And then that night I'd be drinking and over and over and over again. And it was. It was really that, like, that struggle that helped me learn how to identify these beliefs. Like, what was it? Well, like, why was that happening? There was always some sort of activating event. I'd wind up at some boring business dinner that I didn't want to be at. And. And so of course I would have a drink or two or three and realize. Realizing that one of the. One of my beliefs was, I can't stand it. And of course I could. I mean, the dinner was boring, but it wasn't like I couldn't stand it. It was boring. It was a boring. And either I could say no to those kinds of dinners or I could stand them, but, you know, but like. And I was very grateful, actually for this drinking problem because it really helped me do this other, deeper, more important work that has applied all different kinds of, you know, feeling burnt out or all these other places I find myself that I don't want to be. So, yeah, I think, like, helping, like, if. If there's something you don't like about your life, like, this is the right. This is. Identifying the beliefs is probably what got you, part of what got you.

Muriel Wilkins (38:16)

And I mean, you know, back to the question of, like, well, how does somebody know they're off? Quite frankly, if you can build the. The, you know, well, whatever you want to call it, the awareness, the consciousness, the mindfulness, to notice when that I'm not really going down the path that I want to, you can sort of circumvent and not use your energy, channel your energy in your right way. I also understand that ultimately, at some point, even if you don't face it, other things will make you face it. Right. You know, it will either come at you or, you know, sometimes. I mean, yesterday I was talking to a client, the one who was like, I don't want to feel so frustrated, but yet she keeps doing the same thing. I said, look, at some point, one or two things are going to happen. Either you're going to make a decision to do something differently or you're just going to get tired of being tired. Right. And that's what's going to lead to the change. Yeah. And we can go either way. I'm fine. Right. If you want to wait till you're tired of being tired, then call me. Then we don't need to do this right now because you're not ready. And that's okay. That's okay. So I think there is this understanding of also facing those situations as their opportunities rather than inconveniences. Right. And if we can lean into them as opportunities, then that's where the lesson is learned. What I also find a lot of times is that the lesson isn't learned and we just keep coming back. When I say I'm a work in practice, I may come back to the belief, but I'm not coming back in the same way. Right? So I'm coming back in a different way, and that's all I care about. As long as I'm coming back in a different way, you know. But if I keep coming back to the same issue in the same way I have for the past 55 years, there's a problem, you know, and that's what I see happen a lot of times with leaders. I say all the time the challenges are not going to go away. They're there. But if you can come back to the challenges in a different way, where you can respond differently or you can experience your leadership challenges differently, hopefully with a little more ease, then that is what makes all of the difference, and that's what I'm hoping for.

Amy Sandler (40:23)

I love that frame, Muriel, because as you're talking about the person you're working with, we're going to keep repeating the same behavior, and that's okay. If you're not ready, do you have an example that you could share? Someone who did respond a little differently? Like, if you almost had a slow mo of what was happening in the moment for them, how are they able to actually show up differently? Like, what is it? So that someone, when they're in that same situation that is popping up, mindset, behavior change, like, what is it that sparks those little shifts?

Muriel Wilkins (40:54)

Yeah, there's one. I said it was one of the hardest chapters I had to write in the book. But as you're mentioning this, I'm thinking about that client. It was the chapter on I don't belong here. And, you know, this particular client was in a. He was heading up strategy. He'd never really worked in the headquarters. Right. He'd always been out in the field. So he was trying to adjust to, like, now being, you know, and it literally was like, really nice offices, all the executives with the literally secretary sitting outside, blah, blah, blah. And he was having a really hard time adjusting to just how things operate there, you know, and he's the one who said. He said, I just feel like I don't belong here. Right. And. And I said, well, how. How is that showing up for you? And he's like, well, I go to meetings and I don't really speak up, you know, I don't say anything because I just don't know, like, what I'm supposed to do. And I said to him, I said, well, are you actually in the meeting? And he was like, yeah. And I said, so what is it that tells you you don't belong? And he goes, that was like the fastest one that anybody who's like, oh, you mean I'm actually there? And I'm like, yeah. And he goes, okay. And I said, so if you're there, what does that mean? He was like, like, I need to contribute. And I was like, yeah. I said, what are you waiting for to belong? He goes, I think I was waiting for an invitation. I said, the invitation came a couple months ago. You were hired for the job. He was like, so good. Now, there were a lot of other things, but that little piece, which I don't explain in that way in the book, but it's similar, that little piece, quite frankly, he went from one week, literally not saying a thing in these meetings to the next week contributing more. Right. Still had room to go, but at least he was speaking up, you know.

Kim Scott (42:55)

Yeah.

Muriel Wilkins (42:56)

And so that is an example of just how one question, you know, it's questioning. That's what it is. It's like questioning the. The belief, you know, and then seeing if there's another one that's going to serve you a little bit better. And for him, literally the one that's serving batteries, I belong. Like, I. I'm there. So what's the question?

Amy Sandler (43:16)

Yeah, when you talk about questions, it is so good. And you host the Coaching Real Leaders podcast. You're an expert coach for folks who might be new to coaching questions. Where do those mirroring questions come from? Like, what. What was it that was bubbling up for you that that was the question you could ask him around belonging? Because it really did unblock, unblock him.

Muriel Wilkins (43:39)

I think that's important. And it's funny because as I do the podcast, which. Which is, as you know, you know, I'm actually coaching people on there. People have asked me, you know, how did you come up with that question? How did. I'm like, it's not scripted, I promise you. But I'm going to tell you the key to. At least for me and what I. When people ask, well, how do I come up with a question? I think there's two things One is you ask the question based on what's in front of you. So you meet. It's simple, right? What is in front of you? And that is curiosity. If we think back to kids, right? And they're, like, so curious, why? Because they ask the simplest questions. They see the sky. They see it's blue, and they say, why is the sky blue? They don't, you know, they don't, like, add all this other stuff with it, right? So that's number one, is meet yourself, meet the other person, meet the situation, see it for what it is, and ask the question about that. So the example I gave it was like, well, what makes you feel like you don't belong? Because he had just said, I don't belong. Well, what is it that makes you feel like? So you pick up right from where you are or where they are. Okay, so that's number one. I think the second is you ask the question without attachment about what the answer might be. Because if you are already judging yourself on the performance of your question, you're probably not going to ask it or you're going to make it way more complicated than it needs to be. And that, to me, right, when we talk about what does it really mean to be vulnerable? That's. That's a part of being vulnerable. I'm going to ask the question, you know, in the simplest way, and it doesn't matter one way or the other what the answer is. I'm just trying to figure it out, right? And I'm going to figure it. And this is part of the process of figuring it out, you know, and so it's the same with ourselves, you know, asking yourself. And a lot of times people don't ask themselves the questions about themselves because they're afraid of what they're going to find out or they don't. They might not like the answer. It's the same reason why sometimes we don't. We're not really curious about other people as well. We don't really want to hear something we don't want to hear. Well, that's okay. But you're going to keep coming back to the same place exactly the way you are now. So what do you want?

Kim Scott (45:52)

I think that that's so wise. I think a big part of being a coach, being a good friend, being, like, showing up, having a relationship of any sort, is letting go of your own agenda.

Muriel Wilkins (46:04)

Yeah.

Kim Scott (46:04)

Like, you can't really be present if you, like, are trying to. If you're trying to get something out of this time with this person.

Muriel Wilkins (46:11)

Yeah.

Kim Scott (46:11)

And that was. That was something I had to really learn over time.

Muriel Wilkins (46:16)

Yeah. To take it one step further because a lot of people say, oh, do I have to change myself? And I'm like, you don't need to change who you are. What we're. Particularly as a leader, I'm not looking to change who you are because, my gosh, you. I wouldn't be working with you if you hadn't been successful, okay? And I want you to continue to be successful. It's about expanding what you bring, okay? And so this notion even of I've got to, like, let go of my agenda, and I'm like, no, what I want you to be able to do is build the capacity to hold both agendas, right? To trust yourself that you can. You can listen to the other person's agenda and don't freak out. You're not going to lose yours. You can hold both. You know, it's this both and that we've been talking about and so many people are talking about. And that to me is the minute you can expand your range, you have now more capacity to deal with the complexity out there. If you are one lane on the inside, you can only deal with one lane on the outside, okay? So that's where this. This notion of holding a lot of different things at once, you can't do that on day one. You've got it. It's like a muscle, right? Like, you've got to build it. You build capacity to do that.

Amy Sandler (47:26)

I know you've been talking a lot about this book. Is there a question or a story that you've shared that you haven't done yet that you'd love to just bring to the conversation?

Muriel Wilkins (47:36)

I think it's very apropos even for sort of where the world is right now, which, you know, a lot of people have been of kind, conflicted with that, myself included, around, like, how do we experience what's happening a lot at the macro level when everybody's dealing with their own stuff at the micro level, you know, I share the story in the book about the story of the double arrow, right, with the Buddha. And the student asks, or he asked the student, if somebody gets struck by an arrow, do they feel pain? And the student says, yes. And they said, well, if he gets struck, Buddha says, if he gets struck by a second arrow, do they feel more pain? And the student says, yes. And the Buddha says, well, the first arrow is the pain. It's the challenges of life, right? And in my view, it's the challenges of leadership. The second Arrow is how we respond to the first arrow. And that's really where suffering comes from. And so he goes to this quote that's often used around pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional. And so from my standpoint, the thinking right now, or the question I would offer to anyone is, in what way are you meeting the challenges and opportunities that you face today? And are you just meeting them? Are you adding on to them in a way that then causes unnecessary suffering? Because that is optional. You can actually face any of those challenges and opportunities with more ease. And if leaders would learn how to do that, it would just create more ease for everyone else. So.

Amy Sandler (49:09)

Well said. Well, one of the next steps to help us create a little more ease is certainly with your book Leadership Unblocked, I encourage folks to do it. But I also, I just. Given what you're talking about, the moment that we're in and that sense of belonging, anything else, you just want to share on where you're finding support. Muriel.

Muriel Wilkins (49:28)

Oh, gosh. You know, it's so interesting. I actually just wrote about this today around how I have been struck this year, because it's probably something I've resisted a lot in my life. And we could unpack that is this sense of how important community is. I've definitely been the quintessential. I can do it on my own, love the people, but I'm going to be the Statue of Liberty standing strong this year. I think nothing in particular has happened. I think, again, the teacher shows up when the student is ready. And there was this appreciation for community and what it does. And so for me, what. I literally just had this moment this week where I'm, like, my hope for next year. I'm leaning into community in 2026. And I was joking with somebody. I said, I am. I am coming out of the house. I am gonna go, like, engage with people publicly. And I'm gonna tell you what's so interesting about this. I had. I started thinking about this a few weeks ago when I tell you this week, I have not gotten public speaking engagement inquiries. I mean, they drop in every now and then, but barely. I got a lot of coaching increase this week. I cannot tell you how many people have invited me to come speak at their, like, get outside of the house. They don't want virtual. They want in person. Come be with the people.

Kim Scott (51:02)

So amazing.

Muriel Wilkins (51:03)

And I was like, there's a part of me that's like, muriel, are you sure you want to belong in community? Like, you belong? And then there's another part of me that's like, yeah, yeah. Belonging is not just here, right? Belonging is there, out there, everywhere out there in the world. So let's check in at this time next year and I'll let you know how it goes.

Kim Scott (51:24)

Well, you'll probably get tired of all the traveling, but I think it is one of the things that I keep coming back to is that the thing that fills me with reassurance are the conversations I have with people. All, you know, with my kids and my. And my husband, but also out there in the world, in the work that I do, there are so many people are doing great and inspiring things and it's easy to stay focused on all the uninspiring things happening out there. And it's, it fills. I think you're very wise and I love that the world that you made, the intention and then the world filled it up.

Muriel Wilkins (52:03)

Yeah, I think the other big reframe that's happened for me and it's taken a very long time, but it's there. Look, I think a lot of us high performers, high achievers are so used to making things happen, right? Like we contort it and shape it and da, da, da, da, da. And that's a. That's exhausting, right? That's, that's really tiring. And I, and I started realizing that in the beginning of this year. I just talked about my intention for next year, but this year, again, it was this, like, knowing. It wasn't like I wrote it down. I just had this knowing. I was like, this is a year where all the, like, internal stuff that I've been working, like, all the shifting internally that I've been working on forever, things on the outside are going to start aligning with that. And I'm not even going to have to try. I'm not even going to have to force it. I'm not going to have to do anything, right? It's just going to align now. Does that mean everything's going to go quote, unquote great? No, I don't know what. And I said, I don't even know what it's going to be, but it's going to align. And so it's been so interesting to me as the, you know, my book came out and people are like, wow, how did you do this? How did you do that? And I'm like, yeah, I definitely put my work in, but I didn't make any of that happen. It just aligned with where I was and some things didn't. But I don't, I don't see it as misalignment. It's just that wasn't for me. That's not what was for me. This was for me. And so it's a very different place. Like, I actually think I am experiencing the same stuff that I experienced with the last book. You know, life, leadership, etc. But again, I'm experiencing it differently because something internally has shifted. Right? It's. It's the, it's the, the Cynthia Erivo Wicked song. Something has changed with.

Kim Scott (53:56)

Something has changed. I love it. I love it.

Muriel Wilkins (53:59)

Yes.

Kim Scott (53:59)

Well, so for folks listening, you should definitely buy the book Leadership Unblocked. But also if, if they want to invite you to speak, at the risk of jumping into trying to make things happen, how can people find you?

Muriel Wilkins (54:15)

Yes, well, you can find all things that I'm up to@murielwilkins.com I'm also on LinkedIn @Muriel Wilkins and on Instagram oachmerialwilkins. But Murielwilkins.com is my home base.

Kim Scott (54:28)

Love it.

Amy Sandler (54:29)

Awesome. I love the close. All I can think of now is may you continue defying gravity, Muriel, and may we do this in community. Really love the conversation. For folks listening you want to see the show notes, go to radicalcander.com podcast if you're a more visual person. We've got our podcast on YouTube and Spotify. Praise in public, criticize in private. So if you like what you see in here, please do rate. Review us wherever you're listening, watch, share the episode feedback or questions. Email podcastradicalcandor.com Again, Muriel, thank you so much for helping us.

Kim Scott (55:06)

Thank you, Muriel.

Amy Sandler (55:07)

Unblock ourselves and become better leaders.

Muriel Wilkins (55:10)

Take care. Thank you.

Kim Scott (55:11)

Take care. The Radical Candor podcast is based on the book Radical Be a kick ass boss without losing your humanity by me, Kim Scott. Episodes are produced with thanks to Podium production company with script editing by Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co founders Jason Rosoff and the it's hosted by Amy Sandler. Nick Persimmi is our audio engineer. The Radical Candor podcasting music was composed by Cliff Goldbacher. Follow us on LinkedIn Radical Candor the company and visit us at radicalcander.com.