Stephanie Chung (3:01)

Yeah, that's A great question. So a lot of times before I oversaw companies prior to that, on my way up in my career, I was overseeing sales teams typically. And the thing that's interesting about being ahead of sales is that usually when you bring in a new head of sales, it's because the old head of sales, like the numbers weren't coming in, something wasn't going right, something's gone horribly wrong. And so you replace that leader, you bring in a new head of sales. And so I say that to say that usually when we are coming in, the CEO will usually have some pretty strong opinions about the sales team. And usually they're not very favorable because the sales team hasn't hit their number in a little bit. So I'm coming into an environment where there's a lot of opinions from the C suite about the sales team and usually not very positive. Therefore, the discipline that I have to have is not to just hear their side of the story or not just take that one perspective. Right. So the first thing I have to do is sit and observe and make my own decision. Is it the performance? Is it the people? Is it the process? Is it the product? There's a lot of ifs that I don't know the answer to. If I just listen to that one piece of just from the CEO, it's going to automatically be the people. Yeah. And so in order to not do that, I've got to step back a little bit. And so I have to focus in on something. But usually it's not the people that I focus in on first because I need time to watch and observe for myself. But what I can do is dive in and look at the process. Right. Because usually, and especially with sales teams, a lot of times sales teams aren't hitting their number for a whole slew of reasons. It could be the people, it could be the product, it could be the process, et cetera. But oftentimes in any organization, I can promise you I can go into any organization and find places of redundancy that are not beneficial for the sales team. Meaning either the process is clunky or too many divisions doing the same thing, or salespeople. The way that I look at it is the salespeople are the only people in an organization where their number one job and quite frankly their only job is to bring in revenue.

Kim Scott (5:08)

Yeah.

Stephanie Chung (5:08)

Yet so many companies have salespeople doing non revenue generating activities. And so I can look at the process quickly and realize, okay, this thing is clunky. The Salespeople are spending 60% of their time on non revenue generating things. How can I get this process streamlined? So I guess that's a long way to answer your question, Amy. But I'm looking at a couple different things. Because the CEOs want an action. Right. The number's not been coming through, so I gotta be able to jump in and start to give some kind of illusion of activity. Right. Without firing everybody. And so therefore I can focus in on the process and then while I'm still observing the people and talking to the team. Because there's two sides to every story. That's actually one of the first pieces of advice my father gave me when I first entered into leadership. And my dad was a master sergeant in the U.S. air Force. And I asked him, dad, I really want to do a good job. What advice would you give me? And he said, there's two things. One, always protect your team and two, always know there's two sides to every story. So I go into any company looking for that second side of the story because I've heard from the CEO or the board or whoever. So I've heard one side of the story, I need to hear the other side of the story. And that tends to buy me a little bit of time as I assess what's going on with the team and the personnel is itself.

Kim Scott (6:25)

Yeah, it's so interesting because so often the numbers, the performance numbers are a lagging indicator, not a leading indicator. The score takes care of itself. And if you take the time to understand the process, I imagine you notice a lot of inefficiencies, salespeople having to spend hours and hours generating proposals or whatnot, other common inefficiencies. And then as you get to know the people, you can begin to make assessments about. Maybe the people are the. How often would you say the process is really the driver of poor performance?

Stephanie Chung (6:59)

Yeah, the process always plays a part. I've had a hundred percent of the time somewhere along the lines could be better. Right. It just tends to be clunky. And so there's that. But you actually hit upon an interesting point, Kim, because sometimes it's not just the sales process, sometimes it's the internal process that delays the sales. Right. From happening. Because legal review coming as a former salesperson, there are certain departments that were like, they're the sales prevention department, right?

Kim Scott (7:26)

Yeah.

Stephanie Chung (7:26)

Because they've got all these rules and compliance and whatnot. So I'm looking at process for the sales team for sure, But I'm also looking at what processes are holding up and clogging up the revenue Generating opportunities for sales. And the other piece is also what other departments because people tend to want to have sales write this, have sales do this, put this report together and so they don't even know all of that. So you can get some information. So yeah, it's coming in as a head of sales, which is same as when you're coming in as heading up the company. There is a lot of dynamics that you're trying to get in order before you start in a way of changing stuff. Right?

Kim Scott (8:03)

Yeah.

Amy Sandler (8:04)

And when you talk about the dynamics, I'm just imagining Stephanie, even just from my own experience being new in an organization. Here you are, you have been tasked by the CEO like you said, or the board, hey, fix this problem. How do you. What's the sort of number one way or the first thing you're going to do to start to build trust with these folks who might see you as someone who's so much of radical Cater is about trust. And I'm sure you become expert at starting to build trust with people who might not trust you at first.

Stephanie Chung (8:32)

Absolutely. The very first thing that I always do, no matter what team I've taken over is I and I have a meeting just with my team. So just with the direct reports or their reports as well. But no other department is allowed in. It's just me and them. And the reason why that was is super important to me is it gives me an opportunity to do a couple of things. One, to actually share a little bit about myself, how it is that I lead that type of thing. So I get to have. They get to see my personality, not just what they've seen on paper or a resume of what they heard, but now we get to have a real interaction which I think helps continues on the trust journey. But then the other piece that's equally as important is every single team I have ever overseen. I will always say to them, you know why it is that I'm there, right? Because again, if I look at the sales team, it's usually because our numbers are not where they need to be. One of the reasons why I'm here. But I also talk about what it is that we're going to do together as a team. I'll set the rules of listen on this team, what's important to me is that we are each other's keeper. We have to have each other's back on this team. And so we're all going to either win together or we're going to all lose together. But it's our choice, right? And so by Setting the stage they understand at the very beginning. I'm expecting you to function as a team, to know right here from me. So there's certain things that in that very first meeting together, I'm going to say things. And that's why I don't want other people in the room, because I want them to hear from me what my expectations are, how I am as a leader, what I expect. But it could be something like, listen, I don't expect you to work on the weekends unless that's part of your job. I may respond to an email on the weekend. It doesn't mean that I'm expecting you to respond back to me during the weekend. So it could be all kind of things that I just want them to start to realize. Huh. Because I'm going into this with them already having an expectation or a preconceived notion. So I've got to take it over, if you will, with this is who I am. This is why we're here. This is what I fully expect that we're going to be able to get accomplished together and blah, blah, blah, blah, and then opening up the floor up to be able to answer any questions that they may have. So I think the first setting is so incredibly important, and I've done that with every single team. And then the rest of it is I have to be consistent with what it is that I said day one. Right. So that trust.

Kim Scott (10:50)

Yeah, yeah. And what about when you're coming in? I imagine when you came in as president of Jet Suite, there was a lot was happening.

Stephanie Chung (10:58)

Yeah.

Kim Scott (10:58)

What were some of the additional things that you needed to do in that situation to build trust?

Stephanie Chung (11:03)

Yeah. It's interesting because sometimes we'll use that particular organization as an example. There was transition happening. Not so much. I think you're thinking 2020 too. There was like a whole lot.

Kim Scott (11:13)

Yes.

Stephanie Chung (11:14)

But especially in aviation. Right. It was crazy. But we were trying to transition the company from a commodity to more of a luxury product. So the transition had to happen as well. It was one of the reasons why I was there. And now you're looking at the entire organization and the process and the procedures and not just with what's working, not what's not working, but how's the perceived commodity versus luxury versus. So you're looking at a whole lot of different dynamics. And then you're also looking to see, do I have the right people in the right place. You're taking a mindset of commodity, and all of a sudden you've got to change that to more of A luxury stance. That's a different type of principle person or a different mindset that you have to have with the employees. And so you've got to make sure you've got the right people in the right place. One thing I will say is I don't make any hasty decisions at the beginning because I've watched, I've been on the receiving end of that.

Kim Scott (12:03)

Yeah.

Stephanie Chung (12:04)

Where it's just like you have a new boss and the boss doesn't listen to anything or anybody and they're just like coming into guns blazing. Right. Trying to mark their territory and prove that they should be there. It is disastrous when you have to work under that. The second, do some observations before you come in and start trying to play superhero and change everything. Because at that point it's all about you, the leader, about trying to get the result that the team.

Kim Scott (12:29)

Yeah, that's such an important point. And it seems like I think of myself as a person who is. Who does not make snap judgments, especially about other human beings. But when I was CEO for the first time, my co founder came to me and he said to me, kim, you're awfully fast to flip the bozo bit. And I was like, oh, now I'm that leader who makes their mind up about people so quickly and doesn't change when there's new evidence. I don't change my mind about people. And so that was like one of the hardest bits of feedback. I didn't exactly solicit this feedback, but I got it. I should have been. Clearly I wasn't soliciting enough feedback. So for me, and I was so stressed, this was. I was first time CEO, so it was hard to hear that feedback. It was emotionally hard. I'm like, that's not how I think of myself. That's not who I want to be. That was an example for me at least of getting some radical candor in a stressful situation. How do you deal with both getting soliciting feedback in a high stakes situation and also giving it?

Stephanie Chung (13:41)

Yeah. So do you mean soliciting it for myself or from your team?

Kim Scott (13:45)

For me, that's one of the first things that I try to do to build trust is to get people tell me what I'm doing wrong because I know I'm screwing stuff up every single day. And if you tell me, then life is better for both of us.

Stephanie Chung (14:01)

Exactly.

Kim Scott (14:01)

So I don't keep doing it.

Stephanie Chung (14:03)

That's exactly. And I agree with you. Right. I think when you open up that kind of vulnerability, because it's interesting that's actually another thing that I talk about the first day when I have time with the team is to say there are going to be things. I'm brand new here. I don't even know what the bathroom is. Right. I just got here. Right.

Kim Scott (14:17)

Yeah.

Stephanie Chung (14:18)

So there's going to be things I may ask questions that make no sense, and so I throw it out there on the front end. You have every right. And I am expecting you to feel free to correct me. Right. Because I may not know, I may use the wrong verbiage. I may not understand how the culture is here, like all of that stuff. So I really, again, if I've laid out the idea for a team and blah, blah, blah, I'm asking them and expecting them to give me candid conversation and candid information.

Kim Scott (14:46)

Yeah.

Stephanie Chung (14:47)

The flip side is true though, too, as I also go in and apologize on the front end. There is going to be something I do or say that will probably offend you somewhere along the line and just know that's not my intention. And so when I do it, not if, when I do it, I would ask that you would write that in there. So stop me and correct me. Right. Don't talk about two weeks from now or talk about somebody else. Stop it right then and there and let me know. And I believe when you lay that kind of vulnerability out to any normal functioning human being, they're going to respond in a way that automatically builds trust.

Kim Scott (15:21)

Right.

Stephanie Chung (15:22)

So that's one way that I do it. The flip side is funny. One day when I think about candid, radical candor. Right. Or just that kind of conversation, I remember having it, but there was two incidents and you were talking when you were asking me, I was thinking about this. I remember having it, not so much with the team that I was leading, but with a bunch of colleagues. Right. So we were all leaders. And it was a situation where it was many years ago and the airline that I worked for, we had to do a major layoff. It was just like so hard. And everybody was just. Those things are horrible, right?

Kim Scott (15:56)

Yeah.

Stephanie Chung (15:57)

Sometimes they're needed, but they're just horrible.

Kim Scott (15:59)

Yeah.

Stephanie Chung (15:59)

And so what happened is afterwards, they brought in a psychologist to have all the leaders come in and we could talk, cry, you could do whatever you couldn't do that week when all this was happening.

Kim Scott (16:11)

Now you can do it.

Stephanie Chung (16:12)

Now you can do it. And so it was all of us colleagues. I'll never forget this day. And so the psychiatrist was basically asking us, where are we at on the five stages of grief? Where are we at. In this, in this process. And I remember for me, I was. Most people were covering round number two or three. Now it's got like, I'm at five. No, I'm done at this point.

Kim Scott (16:32)

Five is acceptance. One is denial.

Stephanie Chung (16:34)

Like I'm right. So I remember all of my colleagues were just like. And they just went to town. How can you be so insensitive? I can't believe it. And it just took me off guard. Like, I really was surprised by their reaction.

Kim Scott (16:50)

I have never heard of the five stages of grief. Getting weaponized against someone, the head with it.

Stephanie Chung (16:56)

And I remember, I think the psychiatrist started feeling sorry for me. She kind of jumps in at one point and she says, stephanie, can you tell me a little bit about your background? I said, I grew up a military brat. I moved every two years of my life.

Kim Scott (17:10)

Yeah.

Stephanie Chung (17:10)

And she said, because there was only two of us that were five and two of the two were former military kids. So we, we, we were able to process it faster. It didn't mean we didn't go through the stages. Just went through it faster. Right. And so anyway, she opened up the floor. We had a great conversation, Me and all of my colleagues. And I remember saying that to them. It's like I felt that I didn't have all those emotions. I just didn't stay there as long as you did. And it's not that I'm right or wrong, it's just you move on to the next thing. In the military, your mission gets completed, you gotta roll to the next thing. Right. So my mind was programmed like that. And I remember that time because it really was a very interesting. It was intense, obviously, but it also. I learned a lot about myself during that time and I learned a lot about others because I just assumed everybody was at the same stage I was at someplace else. And what I had to do. The lesson that I got out of that was to learn that not everybody processes the same way.

Kim Scott (18:07)

Yes.

Stephanie Chung (18:08)

And so I have to slow down a little bit to realize that they may not be at the same place that I'm at. And so what can I do to help ease that burden? Help them as they go through their process. And, and that was one of the biggest lessons early on in my leadership career that I learned through that particular.

Kim Scott (18:25)

Situation and not to judge or be judged.

Stephanie Chung (18:28)

That's right. That's right.

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Stephanie Chung (20:03)

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Amy Sandler (20:17)

It'S such a great story, Stephanie, because I'm just thinking about bringing your book into the conversation. Ally how to lead people who are not like you. And there's so many ways in which we can be, I think, similar and different. And one of them, what you're talking about is sort of emotional processing. And when you were sharing that, one of the things that comes up in our Radical Candor workshops is we'll have people self identify like what's the mistake that you tend to make the most if you're not practicing radical candor? Is it that obnoxious aggression, high challenge, low care? Is it that ruinous empathy, high care, low challenge or manipulative insincerity? We're neither caring nor challenging and I would say the majority is often ruinous empathy. And one of the things that comes up is that folks that the mistake they make the most obnoxious aggression. But we sometimes do tend to judge people that might process or communicate differently. Kim and I will often talk on this podcast how we process emotion. We talk about emotion differently and so I think it's such a great example just to tee into your book around that there's so many different ways that people process emotions. And I love that psychiatrist or psychologist asked you tell me a little bit more about you because that gave them a lens into how you got there.

Stephanie Chung (21:32)

Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for that. And it's interesting because Ally Leadership, when I wrote the book. So ally stands for, it's an acronym. It stands for ask, listen, learn, you take action. The part of how to lead every people who are not like you. Listen. Today's workforce, like, good lord. The leaders of today are like, it's a lot, It's a lot.

Kim Scott (21:52)

It's a hard job.

Stephanie Chung (21:54)

It's always been hard. It's like really, you know, so when we think about it, we've got six generations that work and they all have different expectations, different perspectives, different work ethics and so on and so forth. We've got women as the majority of the population, so we communicate differently, we see things differently. We have all the ethnic groups growing, non ethnic groups shrinking. So that changes the dynamic at work. Then you have people with neurodiversity, different able bodied folks, LGBTQ plus a lot of trying to lead people. And they're not like you, the leader. Right. So when we think about that, it requires a different style of leadership or different level of leadership. Like I do believe knowing how to lead everyone these days or people who are not like you, or the time and season that we're in. You can either step up and level up or you can simply be left behind, left Detroit. So you don't have a lot of options. Just because you may not agree with somebody or understand their culture or see things the way that they see it, doesn't mean that they're just going to go away. You just got to figure this out.

Kim Scott (22:54)

Yeah.

Stephanie Chung (22:54)

And that's why I wrote the book. It's no one's going away. Right?

Kim Scott (22:57)

Yes.

Stephanie Chung (22:58)

So no matter how hard you try, it's just not going to happen. What you're going to have to do as a leader is figure out what is it about. And that's why ask, listen, learn is so important. You can't come in with your own preconceived notions. You just can't. And so you have to become. I'm less concerned about an empathetic leader. I think we should all, just as human beings, be empathetic. But I'm more focused on a curious leader.

Kim Scott (23:21)

Yes.

Stephanie Chung (23:22)

Because if you come in with curiosity, then by default you're going to ask questions you don't already know the answer to. Right. And we know as leader in leadership, a Lot of times leaders ask the questions that they do know the answer to.

Kim Scott (23:34)

Yeah.

Stephanie Chung (23:34)

And that's not vulnerable. That does, doesn't build trust. That's, that's just manipulation. Right.

Kim Scott (23:38)

Yeah.

Stephanie Chung (23:38)

And so how do we get folks to really have a curiosity? And once you do that, Amy, it's going to help people. You, they're going to let you meet them where they're at and that's really the key. And that's how you build trust and that's how you build high performing teams. Is I want a team that's going to challenge me and get under my skin because you're making me really think, you know, about the way I saw the plan going. And because those kind of teams, when they're different, they're. Listen, the numbers are clear about diverse teams. Right. They're 19% more likely to be profitable, 70% more likely to go into new markets. The numbers are clear. Just look it up, Google it. No more diverse teams simply outperform traditional teams. Right. And diversity not so much in race and gender or not just race and gender, but diversity of thought. Intellectual diversity is powerful. So all of that is important. But what we don't talk about is how do you lead teams that don't think alike, act, look alike, have the same background, same culture, same. Like how do you lead this much change in diversity? Right. I'm going to say it's not easy leading a bunch of people who don't think alike and have the same background.

Kim Scott (24:48)

Yeah.

Stephanie Chung (24:48)

But if you as a leader can be curious and meet them where they're at and ask and listen and learn, they're always looking for you to have all the answers. You use the collective to actually come up with the answer. Right. That's what makes it so powerful. And knowing that you don't know everything. Nobody gets everyone, nobody. And, and nobody wants to hear your way, how you see things. Right. So your job is to come in with the goal. This is what we need to get accomplished, how we do it. That's up for discussion. Right?

Kim Scott (25:17)

Yeah.

Stephanie Chung (25:17)

And that's where you're inviting everybody to bring their perspective to the table.

Kim Scott (25:22)

And I love your question that you just shared with us about. I know I'm going to say or do something that offends.

Stephanie Chung (25:30)

Yeah.

Kim Scott (25:30)

My. So I'm gonna ask you to tell me when I do that and not talk to other. That is such a good ask question. And for me at least, I often have led teams where that didn't. I would say it wasn't that. I guess it's the same thing, but I didn't look like them was how I felt when I. They were majority men.

Stephanie Chung (25:53)

Yeah.

Kim Scott (25:54)

So I was one of very few women. And there were definitely a couple of times. I think being the underrepresented leader has its special challenges. Right. Like there was one time when I asked that this guy was. His project was not going well and so I was talking to him about it and I asked him at the end of the conversation, what can I do or stop doing that would help me get this project back on track. And he leaned in, he said, the problem here is you are the most aggressive woman I ever met. And I'm like, I'm the most aggressive woman you ever met. And we're in an aggressive industry and your job is to deal with these people. And so your problem is not my aggression, your problem is my gender. And in my case that's not changing. And so that's what I would. But what I actually said was nothing but.

Stephanie Chung (26:39)

Those are great thoughts, though.

Kim Scott (26:40)

Yeah. It's always good to. And I think that part of the reason I said nothing is that it was tricky. It was a tricky situation because I wanted to.

Stephanie Chung (26:50)

To be.

Kim Scott (26:50)

I wanted him to feel like I was genuinely open to feedback and pushing back too hard on him. Felt like I would be shutting him down. But at the same time, by not saying anything to him, I was not being a good ally for the other women at the company. And if he was going to treat me and I was his boss and the co founder of the company, if he was going to treat me that way, how was he going to treat the women who worked for him? It's not good. That's the TLDR on that story.

Stephanie Chung (27:21)

Yeah.

Kim Scott (27:21)

It was really quite bad. And in fact we wound up getting sued because I had created a hostile work environment for women, which obviously was not my intention. And yet that is what happened. I think your question struck me as. That when you come in as an underrepresented leader, that's a great question to ask.

Stephanie Chung (27:39)

Yeah. And it's interesting because you're right. But there's a couple things. One, and going back to the book, if we think about leading people who are not like us right now, all of us are going to fall under that predicament.

Kim Scott (27:50)

Yeah.

Stephanie Chung (27:50)

I think every single one of us are going to lead people who are not like us.

Kim Scott (27:53)

If we are leading people who are exactly like us, we have failed in our hydrating process.

Stephanie Chung (27:59)

Exactly. Right. I really. I'm so passionate about this right now. There's so much noise that has taken the positivity of diversity and made it a trigger for some, exhausting for others, so on and so forth. And that's why I always say I don't spend time talking about the numbers, because you can look it up. Harvard, Deloitte, McKenzie, all of them have enough facts and figures to just cut down the conversation of whether teams that are. That think differently, look differently, speak differently and have different backgrounds. If they perform or not. They every. Every aspect they perform. But what we as leaders have to really realize, though, how am I going to meet people where they're at? Because sometimes I know for me coming into Listen, I come from the aviation industry, especially on the private aviation industry as well. We say it's primarily men. A lot of them come from the military. Right. So there's just a lot going on. And so teams that I have overseen. I even opened the book up. I know that you've read it. Kim opened the book up with a story from one of the first teams I had to oversee. And I'm looking at this all white male team. You know, they're like former fighter pilots. The testosterone's off the chain. And I'm standing there in front of them thinking, boy, you're so different. And they're looking at me like, picking their teeth like, where'd she come from? That kind of set the stage. And it's a team that I didn't want. My CEO was like, come over here and fix this team. So I didn't have a choice. Yeah. I came into it in a really interesting point. The reason why the CEO brought me there is because the team had never hit their number in 14 years. They never hit their number after the first year of us together. They hit the number.

Kim Scott (29:34)

Wow.

Stephanie Chung (29:35)

And. Yeah. And it's because. And that's actually depressed premise of ask, listen, learn. You take actions. Because we were so different that I needed to just. Okay, just reset this whole thing. But then also, back to your point, back in the day, men weren't used to having women as bosses.

Kim Scott (29:51)

Yeah.

Stephanie Chung (29:51)

And so there. I definitely had situations similar to yours. And then you add the fact on that I'm a double person of color. So there's just a whole lot of dynamics that need to be managed. I do agree with you that there are. There are a lot of times, like in your case, where you had a lot of thoughts in your head of what you would have liked to have said. My encouragement for all leaders right now, because all of us were. It's no longer just us women. Men are like so everybody's got that same dynamic, making sure people know, hey, I might say something that's going to be offensive. Please, by all means, stop me. I'm not here to be offensive because I believe this whole thing is a head and heart issue.

Kim Scott (30:28)

Yes.

Stephanie Chung (30:28)

We've been focused on the head part of it, which then makes it very performative, Right?

Kim Scott (30:33)

Yeah.

Stephanie Chung (30:33)

But it's also a heart issue because if you go to the average person who's not like you, whatever that means for you, and they can tell that your intent is good, that you really are trying to understand or you're really asking questions because you really want to know.

Kim Scott (30:49)

Yeah.

Stephanie Chung (30:49)

And most people are going to meet you where you're at because they're going to see you're trying. Because most people would rather you ask and at least talk to me versus don't talk to me at all. Fray, you're going to say the wrong thing.

Kim Scott (31:02)

Yes.

Stephanie Chung (31:03)

So that's really the dynamic that tends to be at play. Speak a lot with women, and women have to listen. I wish there was an easier way that I could say this, but women at this season, you're going to have to just feel the fear and do it anyway. Right. You're going to have to say what you've got to say, and no one's going to give you the space. We hope that people can. They can jump in as an ally and help block and tackle the. But that doesn't always happen. And I'll never forget I had an incident one time when I was working in this meeting and my boss and I had a disagreement and he was just going to town with the whole thing. And so I was standing my ground, proving my point, talking back as to what I saw and why. I heard what he said but didn't agree with what he said. And so all that dynamic was going on and it became very lively.

Kim Scott (31:50)

Yeah.

Stephanie Chung (31:50)

And so I remember when the meeting was over, the rest of the team sat there and said nothing. Like it was all male and the only person of color. And everybody else sat in the meeting and said nothing. And then when we had a break, they're all like, oh, my God, I agree with you. I completely agree with you. And that was a lot. And I don't know how you handled it. And both. And I remember saying to them, shut up, shut up. I don't want to hear it. You, when you had an opportunity.

Kim Scott (32:14)

Yeah. You were not an ally, you said nothing.

Stephanie Chung (32:16)

Exactly. So don't sit here and tell me now how you agree and blah, blah, blah.

Kim Scott (32:21)

That's in the meeting.

Stephanie Chung (32:22)

And so when we, any of us are faced. But primarily this happens a lot to us women when we're faced with those situations. You're going to have to like, no one's coming in to save you.

Kim Scott (32:32)

Yeah, yeah. It's so interesting. I was working with a team a couple of weeks ago and it was a pretty diverse team in terms of gender, in terms of race, in terms of the generations. We were talking about radical candor. And there was one guy who raised his hand. It reminded me of my dad a little bit. An older white man. He said whenever I say what I really think, everybody thinks I'm an asshole. And so I don't dare open my mouth. And he said he felt like he was being unjustly put in the obnoxious aggression box when he was trying to be radically candid. And I wish that I had this conversation with you earlier because if I could have given him your question, I think that would have helped him enormously because he was. But he sometimes came off as confident and he, he sometimes was unjustly accused of obnoxious.

Stephanie Chung (33:23)

And I. Do we have to start giving people a little grace too.

Kim Scott (33:26)

Yeah.

Stephanie Chung (33:27)

There's so much. We're all trying to figure this whole thing out. And when I wrote the book, I felt like a lot of times every book that I had seen up until that point was booked towards two white men saying, this is how you lead women and people of color.

Kim Scott (33:39)

Yeah.

Stephanie Chung (33:40)

Okay. We gotta go deeper and wider because the whole world's changing and it's not just white men. They know how to lead people who are not like them to do this. Just them, all of us. And I do believe that most normal functioning human beings want to see everybody win. Right?

Kim Scott (33:55)

Yeah.

Stephanie Chung (33:55)

But there. Here's what tends to happen is people get in this gentleman's case. Right. He's using other people may say something else. Something else.

Amy Sandler (34:04)

Right.

Stephanie Chung (34:04)

But most people feel like they're an ally.

Kim Scott (34:07)

Most people intend to be 100 and.

Stephanie Chung (34:10)

It'S a small percentage that don't. But most people will tell you that they're an ally to somebody or something or some group. Tell me what you've done to show your allyship this week. People with disability with. They can't give you any receipts.

Kim Scott (34:24)

Yeah.

Stephanie Chung (34:24)

And so what's happening is people are starting to self anoint themselves as an ally with absolutely no receipts to back up the statement. Yes.

Kim Scott (34:32)

Yeah. Good intentions. Thank you. And I.

Stephanie Chung (34:35)

And that's why I got so mad at that meeting when they're like after the fact, right, you gotta speak up. Because this is the season that we as leaders have to be super courageous. We have a lot on our plate, but this kind of stuff is heavy lifting. You're a leader, you're built for this. And so you're going to have to suck it up, cowboy. And this is tough stuff. And same with the women. When they're like, I don't know what to say, it's not going to get easier. Have this question when I speak and women will say, how do I use my voice so that when I get to the C suite, then I'll use my voice. Doesn't work that way because I always tell people, different level, different devil. When you get to the C suite, it is like, game on. And they are much smarter, much wiser, much sharper with the tongue at that level than they ever were when you were a director. Repeat, moving on up. So you have to, wherever you are, you've got to get used to using your voice where you're currently planted. Because then by the time that's one of the things that's going to help you move up the career. But then when you move up that career, it's not all of a sudden people are going to stop and listen to you because you're in the C suite. Doesn't work that way. So people just have to get really courageous with your yes is your yes, your no is your no. You got to stand for something and whatever that is, you got to lean in and stand, stay in when things get uncomfortable. Right?

Kim Scott (35:47)

Yeah.

Amy Sandler (35:48)

One of the things I love learning about you is your interest and background in neuroscience. And I'm just putting myself in the position of the person who, you know, is talking to you after. And yes, I was with you, but I was afraid to speak up. I think everyone can relate to that feeling. And so also understanding kind of the neuroscience behind it, and I'm thinking right now of just the scarf model from David Rock is like status and certainty and autonomy, relatedness, fairness. That feeling of like, if I say this thing, the sort of roi, like I'm making a calculation, like, the risk to me is higher than the reward. So what kind of small tips or sort of muscle building practice would you recommend for people of like, how to actually speak up in the meeting? What's the way that I can get started in a way that feels like not totally into my panic zone?

Stephanie Chung (36:35)

Yeah. So one of the easiest things to do is just ask a question. Right. So instead of making statements, just ask questions. Because the question is disarming and where things get crazy is when you make a statement and then people go like they've got an encounter and it just goes off the rails real quick. But instead if you just ask the question again, curious versus not, that's going to help shed some light. The other thing is, you're right in the book, I actually spent the beginning of the book talking about the science behind.

Amy Sandler (37:04)

Yeah.

Stephanie Chung (37:04)

Why are we resistant towards people that are not like us? Because a lot of it is the way that our brain is wired and we have to rewire this thing. Right? So giving you some specific examples, when our brain sees a face, whether it's in a picture up front, whatever, in person, it's going to automatically put that person, that face, in an in group or out group. That's just its natural instinct. That was something from our days back in the ape man days where it helped protect us. But that same instinct now is not necessarily protecting us right now. It's like it's, it can actually hinder us. And because it's not always right now, we're not going to change the instinct. It's wired in our brain. It is what it is. We can change the information we feed the brain. So it's not so quick to put people in the out group. You're not like me versus the in group. You're like me. So that's where I want people to focus. The natural instincts are there, biases are there. Sometimes they're good for us, right? So let's not act like it's a negative all the time. All these things help protect us. The brain designed to help keep us. Right. So there's good things about it, but there's things that are outdated that we have to rewire. So it's more relevant to today's times. A friend of mine, his name is Dr. Philip Dionne, he's a neuroscientist and he and I spend a lot of work through some work together. One of the things that he said is the brain is constantly evolving. Back in the day, it may have been afraid of saber toothed tigers chasing us down, but as it evolves now, that same brain may be afraid of rejection or how do you see things or saying the wrong thing. Right. It's just evolved to a new fear. And so we're not, none of us are afraid of a tiger. Chase us down the street unless you live someplace.

Kim Scott (38:46)

Tigers in the street, right. Unfortunately, not very many. The tigers are not doing so well.

Stephanie Chung (38:53)

But we do have the fear of rejecting or saying the wrong thing. Knowing how to reprogram your brain and to rewire it is a real thing. And that's why I spend time doing. When I ever talk, I spend time with this. Because there's little things that people can do in order just to override the brain, to give it new information. An example would be go and spend time with people who were not like you. Right. Like every. No matter where you live, somewhere close by is a town where there's people who don't look like you, don't have the same background, have different restaurants than you, different history than you. Go to their restaurants, go to the culture center, go to the art exhibit, go to. If there's a carnival or festival or whatever. Go emerge yourself into areas and people and dynamics that are not familiar to you. That's one way that you override your natural instinct. And then you'll realize, oh, I don't have to be afraid. I thought it was this way. I actually spent some time over there. And those are the kind of things that start to soften your heart, where you then become a leader who can lead people who are not like you. Because you want people who are going to challenge your thought process. Right?

Kim Scott (40:00)

Yeah.

Stephanie Chung (40:01)

That's going to be. At the end of the day, it's not. DEI is ROI generator executive. So I want to have the team that's going to best set me up for being able to produce the biggest result. That gives me a reputation that I know how to perform and to produce teams that know how to perform. Right. There's a whole lot of things in it for you as the leader, but it starts with you having to realize you don't know everything and you need to surround yourself with people who don't think like you, act like you have a background just like you. If you have that type of confidence as a leader and you can lead that type of team, you're unstoppable. You're unstoppable.

Kim Scott (40:34)

Agree. I love it. Following Steph. Stephanie, I think also, like, I hate to keep harping on your question, but your question that you ask is a great way to just going out to your question is super efficient. And that's going to help you encourage the people around you to disrupt your bias. And then you're going to learn to think differently.

Stephanie Chung (40:57)

Right.

Kim Scott (40:57)

It's like learning how to stop thinking fast and start thinking with your deeper cognitive functions. I love.

Stephanie Chung (41:04)

That's right. Exactly. Exactly. And it's not. And it's not as hard as people. One of the things I tried to convey in the book I was really focused on is I didn't want people to think this is cumbersome. Don't over complicate it. Bad, hard. And so we've been built to believe because what happens is people get afraid of mistake or something. Yeah. And then the whole system stuck. Right. Because we can't move forward because of the fear of saying the wrong thing even though you said nothing. Yeah. So it's a vicious cycle. And I just want people to realize that the. Our five year olds do it every single day. They're curious, they're asking questions. They don't know the answer to you. They ask a lot of questions. And so if you just observe them, that's our natural instinct. It's life that beats it out of us. Right?

Kim Scott (41:49)

Yeah.

Stephanie Chung (41:50)

But those are the things that naturally tend to happen. So we just got to go back to the basics of really wanting to ask questions to get to know people. Not what you think about them. But I really want to know. You asked some of the most basic questions. One fun question that I like and I don't know, I feel like this. By the way, my lighting is.

Kim Scott (42:07)

That's all right.

Stephanie Chung (42:08)

Yeah. Something's going on.

Kim Scott (42:09)

The sun is shining on you.

Stephanie Chung (42:12)

It's not a businessy question, but if you're spending time getting know people, I love to ask the question. If you were a time traveler and you could either go forward and meet your descendants or backwards in time and meet your ancestors, which would you choose and why? That tells you a lot about people when they ask, you know what, actually I would. And then you get to hear their story as to why they would want to meet the ancestors or the descendants. Somewhere along the line in that answer, you'll have commonality with them.

Kim Scott (42:38)

Yes.

Stephanie Chung (42:39)

Right now all of a sudden you can start to compare notes. But I just don't want it really. Isn't it? We've made it complicated. It's scary, but it's.

Kim Scott (42:47)

I love it. So we like to wrap up with practical tactical advice. What do you do to make sure you're really listening with the intent to understand, not to respond.

Stephanie Chung (42:57)

How do you. Because that is.

Kim Scott (42:59)

It's easier said than done.

Stephanie Chung (43:01)

Yeah. It's so easy, helpful, you know, so if somebody says something to me, I'll go, okay, let me just repeat back what I heard. Me if I'm wrong. Right. So it's just a way that I can kind of engage and make sure that I'm picking up what they meant to lay down.

Kim Scott (43:12)

By the way, you said that is really important because Sometimes I'll tell people to repeat back what they heard, and they repeat it back in this super sarcastic way. And so you want to make sure that they are. That they understand. They're supposed to say, I want to make sure that I understand. Tell me if I'm wrong.

Stephanie Chung (43:30)

That's right. Exactly.

Kim Scott (43:31)

Think I heard.

Stephanie Chung (43:32)

That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So that's one way that I find to be really helpful when I'm trying to listen to somebody. Also, it's interesting. Silence is a powerful thing. Right. And a lot of times, especially because I have a sales background, one of the things I usually have to teach salespeople is, stop talking so much. It's okay for silence. Silence can be a good thing. And the reason why that's so powerful is because there's a couple things. One, your brain. We all talk an average 130 words per minute, and that's if we're talking on the faster side. Yeah, but the brain can process, like, over a thousand words per minute. So the brain's moving faster than what we normally can talk.

Kim Scott (44:07)

Yes.

Stephanie Chung (44:08)

And so what's really important is be intentional about your pauses so that people's brains can catch up. Right. Because it's just words coming at them. When I speak as a professional speaker, I talk about the science of a conversation and what's going on in the brain, in the body, when a conversation's happening. So it's important that you use pauses in a powerful way. One, it gives your listener's brain an opportunity to catch up and make sure it's following your lead. But then the other part is when you're silent and you're observing people's body language and facial expressions. Some of the most powerful things said are actually unspoken. Right. Because you're watching their nuances in their facial expressions. And so therefore, it will reaffirm what you think you're hearing. Or it can make you go, hmm, that was different. And then it allows you to now check in. I. I know what. Help me understand. What was that right now, all of a sudden? Because listening is so active, it's not just about hearing, but it's visually and listening to the words and the fluctuation of their voice.

Kim Scott (45:06)

And I think that's so important, what you said about if you think you're noticing something on someone's facial expression, check in and ask. One of the things Amy and I have learned is that I often totally misinterpret her facial expressions.

Amy Sandler (45:23)

But it makes for good conversations.

Stephanie Chung (45:25)

There you go.

Amy Sandler (45:25)

Exactly.

Kim Scott (45:26)

Give voice to what you think you're.

Amy Sandler (45:28)

Saying, and it's also so much of it, especially mediated through cameras. You don't really know what's happening. Rather than saying, Amy, me, you're angry versus, hey, what's going on for you? Like, how did that land for you? So I think again, it just reinforces what you're talking about with curiosity. Before we close, Stephanie, first of all, how can people find you?

Stephanie Chung (45:47)

Oh, thank you, Stephanie. Chung.com is probably the easiest way. And from there, you'll see all my social handles or anything. So Stephanie Chung.com is the easiest way.

Amy Sandler (45:56)

Let's get the book going.

Kim Scott (46:00)

How to Lead People who are not like you.

Stephanie Chung (46:03)

Exactly. This is the book for all of us.

Kim Scott (46:06)

No one gets everyone unless you're hiring your twins, which you should do.

Amy Sandler (46:11)

And then this is a bonus question. But since it's rare that I get to speak with someone who's an expert in aviation, any just words of wisdom for people navigating summer travel and airport challenges and flights? And just some reassuring words for our audience?

Stephanie Chung (46:27)

Yeah, there is a lot, and I'm on a couple of boards where we're having conversations because there's a lot going on in aviation right now. Here's what I would say. One, don't overpack. Okay? But I'm always surprised how people, it just, it holds up everything if you've never flown before. But so don't overpack, get there early. Right now, every airport is pretty much full or congested and TSA and just all the stuff. Flying can be certainly very stressful. If I was talking to airlines and sometimes I do where I'm like, okay, you guys, we need to have some customer experience retraining or something because everybody needs to step up in this area. But as travelers, have fun. When you're traveling, it's something that's super important or else you wouldn't be going. Right. And one of the things when I used to lead companies is I would always say to the now obviously I was at this point, it was private aviation, right. So it was a little bit different than airlines. But I would always tell the employees, listen, we're part of their story. Wherever they're going is important enough for them to buy a ticket, get on a plane, or flying privately. It's even more if you're going to spend that kind of money. So we're already part of this story. It's up to us to determine how this story will be told. And so that's what I would say to anybody in any kind of travel and hospitality, because you're right. It's summer. People are going to be going to place with their kids and we're all part of this story. If we're in the hotel industry or car rental or airlines, whatever, what do we want them to say? And that's the key because they're going to have a vacation or they're going to have that business trip. At the end of the day, people are traveling because whatever it is that they're doing is really important enough for them to get on a plane or otherwise you just do it via Zoom. Right. And so we've got to make sure that we take into account that we're part of their story. It's a life changing moment for them, or else why do it? Right. And it's up to us to determine what that story is going to be. I would also say that for leadership too. Right. And I'm working on a speech I've got to give soon at one of the large leadership conferences. And that's really one of the ways I'm going to close it out as I'm playing around with it is as leaders, people are going to talk about what it was like to work for you. So you determine what they're going to say. And we don't think about that because we're so busy running around like our hair's on fire that we're not really thinking about this long term. I know people who have worked for me years ago and the ones that will work for me years from now, I want them to say a certain thing. And that means I have to live up to that. Because we've all had bosses where we're like, oh my God, did you remember so and so, like, you know, we don't want that kind of narrative attached to our personal brands.

Kim Scott (49:10)

I love it.

Amy Sandler (49:10)

Thank you for being part of the radical Candor story today. Love this chapter and your reflections. And I also love what your dad said about protecting your team. What great words of wisdom.

Stephanie Chung (49:21)

This was so much fun. This is the best call I've had all day.

Amy Sandler (49:25)

All right, we'll take it.

Kim Scott (49:26)

Loved it. I feel the same way. So great.

Amy Sandler (49:29)

Awesome. Everyone get Stephanie's book, Ally how to Lead People who are not like you. Wherever books are sold. And go on over to radicalcander.com podcast. You can find the show notes for this episode. You can also watch this episode as a video on YouTube and Spotify if you like what you hear. Of course, we hope you do. Go ahead, rate and review us wherever you're listening. And if you've got feedback. You know we love that too. Go ahead. Email podcastadicalcandor.com finally, if you want to get our newsletter straight in your inbox, go on over to radicalcandor.com you can sign up there. Take care.

Kim Scott (50:09)

Thanks everybody.

Amy Sandler (50:12)

The Radical Candor podcast is based on the book Radical via Kick ass Boss without losing your Humanity by Kim Scott. Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal with script editing by me, Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoph and his host. Hosted by me still Amy Sandler. Nick Karisimi is our audio engineer. The Radical Candor Podcast theme music was composed by Cliff Goldmacher. Follow us on LinkedIn Radical Candor the company and visit us@radicalcander.com.

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Stephanie Chung (51:05)

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