Liz Wiseman - Great Leaders Make Everyone Better - S8 | E20

Summary

Radical Candor Podcast: Liz Wiseman – Great Leaders Make Everyone Better

S8 | E20 · July 15, 2026
Hosts: Kim Scott, Jason Rosoff, & Amy Sandler
Guest: Liz Wiseman (author of Multipliers, Impact Players, Rookie Smarts)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Kim Scott interviews renowned leadership expert and author Liz Wiseman. Their candid and energetic conversation explores the difference between leaders who "multiply" the intelligence and capabilities of their teams versus those who "diminish" it, often unintentionally. They delve into the pitfalls of authoritarian leadership, the nuances around when it can be useful, and practical strategies for both leaders and individual contributors to unlock potential at work—even when faced with tough bosses. The episode is rich with stories, actionable advice, and memorable insights that challenge listeners to rethink how power and influence can be wielded constructively at every level of an organization.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Authoritarianism Doesn't Work—And Where There’s Nuance

• Authoritarian leadership—the command-and-control model—is often counterproductive, stifling critical thinking, collaboration, innovation, and accountability.
  • “Just because you’re a smart leader doesn’t mean you’re going to create brilliance around you.” – Liz Wiseman [00:26]
  • Authoritarian leaders, or “diminishers,” only access about 48% of their team’s intelligence. In contrast, “multipliers” inspire people to contribute 95% (or more) of their smarts and creativity [04:04–06:33].
• Authoritarianism can work in slow-changing, predictable environments, but drastically fails in settings requiring agility and honesty [06:33].
  • “People are not going to tell the truth in an authoritarian environment.” – Kim Scott [07:33]
• Feedback from authoritarian leaders often fails because it triggers a fight-or-flight response, making it hard for people to absorb or act on [08:20–09:14].

2. How Diminishers Impact Teams

• Diminishing behavior leads to low morale, silence, a lack of ownership, ‘malicious compliance,’ and in some cases, deliberate sabotage [10:13–12:12].
  • “If you’re too authoritarian, you can’t be a kick-ass boss. You just make your team want to kick your ass.” – Kim Scott [11:21]
• People around diminishers stop volunteering ideas, taking risks, or collaborating flexibly, which is particularly damaging in ambiguous or innovative situations [10:19–11:19].

3. When Is Strong Command Actually Appropriate?

Liz Wiseman offers a nuanced, three-part framework for when command-and-control has a place:

• True Crisis (3–5% of the time): During genuine emergencies (e.g., medical crises or disasters), clear, directive leadership is necessary for safety and speed [13:05–17:30].
  • However, earning the right to be authoritative in crisis depends on being collaborative the rest of the time.
  • “You need to create an environment where people can yell at each other [in a crisis].” – Kim Scott [18:42]
• Innovation/Incubation Moments: Early phases of new ideas or startups sometimes require protective, lone ‘genius’ leadership to break out of stagnation, but not for scaling or ongoing management [20:57–24:41].
  • Even visionary founders ultimately need to become multipliers.
  • “You can start something with genius, but to build something enduring, you need genius makers running those organizations.” – Liz Wiseman [21:58]
• Rapid Course Corrections: Significant, urgent changes in direction can require temporarily concentrated authority for momentum [27:23–28:50].
  • However, this mode should be “surgical,” temporary, and clearly signaled to avoid becoming default culture.

4. The Ideal: Fluid, Shared, Agile Power

• Healthy leadership structures should be bounded, time-limited, and shared (e.g., giving someone 51% of the vote on a particular issue, not 100%) [30:25–31:49].
• Both authoritarian excess and chaos are equally damaging. Stability comes from appropriate, dynamic structure—not total freedom or rigid hierarchy [32:01–33:24].
• “Power becomes like an equilibrium...upon which people could do great work.” – Liz Wiseman [64:17]

5. Accidental Diminishers: Unintentional Ways Good Leaders Go Wrong

• Most diminishing behavior at work is accidental—born from overplaying strengths or good intentions.
  • The “idea fountain”: Over-energetic leaders who overwhelm teams with too many directions or ideas [43:03–44:10].
    • “This is my problem. I have 500 ideas a minute and most of them are terrible.” – Kim Scott [43:26]
  • Ruinous empathy: Leaders who rescue, protect, or are overly optimistic, preventing true growth or ownership. [44:31–45:22]
  • Perfectionism: High standards demotivate others who feel nothing they do will be good enough [45:44–45:55].
• These patterns are harder to spot and challenge because they don’t come from malice.

6. How to Thrive with a Diminishing Boss (Multiply Up)

• Most intuitive responses (arguing, shutting a boss out, resisting control) only make diminishers double down [52:09–52:33].
  • “The best way out of a diminishing situation is to multiply up.” – Liz Wiseman [52:58]
• Find, value, and leverage your boss’s “native genius”—the things they’re great at [61:26–61:37].
  • Example: At Apple, a marketing executive would pause, ask for time to reflect after pushback from Steve Jobs, then return with an improved plan—incorporating his feedback [59:29–60:03].
  • Ron Johnson (Apple Retail) always solicited Steve Jobs’ thinking: “How could I make this better?” [61:39–62:02]
• Offer direct feedback and praise to bosses—it’s not “kissing up,” but helping them understand what’s working [56:12–57:33].
• Remember: Bosses are people. If you make your boss feel smart, they often offer you more latitude and autonomy [57:39–58:46].

7. Impact Players: Playing Big, Even Without a Multiplier Boss

• Impact players are those who step up, navigate ambiguity, solve problems without waiting to be invited, and “boss their bosses” when necessary [48:21–49:49].
  • “In many ways, they were leading through influence. They weren’t waiting around for good leadership.” – Liz Wiseman [49:29]
  • If you can’t get the boss you need, become the boss your team needs [50:15–50:24].
• Wiseman’s advice for those working under diminishers:
  • Don’t shrink; take charge in ambiguous situations
  • Look for ways to lead by influence, not title
  • “Multiply up” by bringing the best out of even difficult leaders

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Authoritarian Waste:
  “You just hired a lot of really smart people ... and you are woefully underutilizing that intelligence.”
  – Liz Wiseman [00:26 / 03:09]

• On Malicious Compliance:
  “If you’re too authoritarian, you can’t be a kick-ass boss. You just make your team want to kick your ass.”
  – Kim Scott [11:21]

• On Crisis Leadership:
  “In those 3-5% moments, it’s very appropriate for the leader to tell people what to do. But then I asked, how do you need to lead in the other 95% of the time?”
  – Liz Wiseman [16:52]

• On Accidental Diminishing:
  “The majority of diminishing that is happening in our workplaces isn’t coming from ... narcissists, bully micromanagers. ... It’s actually coming from the really well-intended leader.”
  – Liz Wiseman [42:34]

• On Dealing with Diminishers:
  “The best way out of a diminishing situation is to multiply up.”
  – Liz Wiseman [52:58]

• On Influence at Any Level:
  “In many ways, they were leading through influence. They weren’t waiting around for good leadership to emerge. They were the good leadership.”
  – Liz Wiseman [49:29]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:26] – Why smart leaders don’t always create smart teams
• [06:33] – Why authoritarianism stifles truth, growth, and agility
• [13:05] – The case for strong command in crises
• [20:57] – Founder mode and the difference between lone genius and genius makers
• [27:23] – When rapid course correction justifies strong leadership
• [31:26] – 51% of the vote: Bounded, temporary power solutions
• [42:34] – Accidental diminishers: The hidden threat
• [47:52] – Impact Players: Thriving regardless of leadership
• [52:58] – Multiply up: Changing your boss–subordinate dynamic
• [59:29] – Tactical advice: Navigating strong-willed bosses (Jobs/Apple stories)
• [61:39] – Using your boss’s “native genius” for mutual success
• [63:53] – The bottom line: Building level playing fields and relationships
• [64:17] – Using, sharing, and balancing power constructively

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Takeaway Principles and Action Steps

• For Leaders:
  • Beware the accidental diminisher traps; ask yourself if your strengths have become weaknesses.
  • Use authority surgically, not as a default.
  • Signal clearly when a situation requires strong direction (e.g., crisis), then return power to the group.
  • Share responsibility by clearly delegating (“51% of the vote”) and by listening deeply.
• For Individuals:
  • If you work for a diminisher, resist the urge to argue or withdraw—“multiply up” by inviting your boss’s expertise.
  • Take ownership, especially in ambiguous situations; don’t wait for permission.
  • Share your own “native genius” and leverage your boss’s for shared wins.
  • Don’t forget to quit if psychological or physical well-being is genuinely at stake.
• For Organizations:
  • Structure authority to be temporary, bounded, and fit for purpose; avoid bureaucracy and totalitarianism.
  • Celebrate impact players and those who lead by influence, not merely title.

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Final Reflections

This episode demystifies why truly great leaders make everyone around them better—not by hoarding power, but by sharing it, by recognizing (and correcting) their own accidental diminishing tendencies, and by fostering an environment where everyone is empowered to lead from where they are. As both Wiseman and Scott emphasize, it all starts with seeing power as relational, dynamic, and ultimately, a tool for—not over—others.

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For further resources and community, visit RadicalCandor.com and check out Liz Wiseman’s books, including Multipliers and Impact Players.

Transcript

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

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[Liz Wiseman]

And what I noticed is that really smart people don't always build really smart teams. Just because you're a smart leader doesn't mean you're going to create brilliance around you. And I saw so many brilliant leaders just sucking the life and the intelligence out of their team. What I think I noticed was you just hired a lot of really smart people and you paid top dollar in the market for that talent and you are woefully underutilizing that intelligence.

[Kim Scott]

Hello everybody, and welcome to the Radical Sabbatical. I'm Kim Scott and with me today is Liz Wiseman, who had such a huge impact on my work. Liz is the author of many wonderful books, including Impact Players. That's, that's your most recent one. Multipliers is probably your most famous one. And your beloved middle child is Rookie Smarts. Rookie Smarts. We just talked about it. I love Rookie Smarts and I have thoughts on Rookie Smarts. But let's start with as you and I. Well, first of all, welcome, Liz.

[Liz Wiseman]

It's good to be here, Kim. You know I love talking with you and I think our subject today is going to be an interesting one.

[Kim Scott]

Yes, it's going to be very interesting and very timely because I think one of the biggest influences you had on me as a writer is your breakthrough research that. And, and you and I sort of started to have the conversation beforehand, but now we'll have it in real life. On the podcast is the breakthrough research on how I phrased it was why authoritarianism doesn't work, why command and control doesn't work. And you said maybe there's some nuance to the situation. So let's start with the nuance and then we'll get into the core points.

[Liz Wiseman]

Okay. Well, I suppose I'm known for the anti diminisher, anti authoritarian position. And, and I guess maybe we should start with the basics of why authoritarianism isn't a great leadership model for our current work environment. And then let's get to.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Liz Wiseman]

Where that gets a little bit more.

[Kim Scott]

And I would maybe say for almost any work environment, almost anytime people are Trying to collaborate. Authoritarianism is, is not as good as, as m. As being a multiplier.

[Liz Wiseman]

So I, I came out of the tech world and, you know, had this incredible experience working around such smart people. Like everyone in the organization was so smart. And what I noticed is that really smart people don't always build really smart teams. That was really the observation that just because you're a smart leader doesn't mean you're going to create brilliance around you. And I saw so many brilliant leaders just sucking the life and the intelligence out of their teams. And I think a lot of people noticed that they suck morale. You know, they're like energy vampires. But what I think I noticed was you just hired a lot of really smart people and you paid top dollar in the market for that talent and you are woefully underutilizing that intelligence.

[Kim Scott]

Or, or even silencing it.

[Liz Wiseman]

Yeah, silencing it. And you know, doing, doing the research. What I found is these leaders, I call them diminishers because of this kind of dampering effect that they had on ideas and insights and creativity and initiative and accountability, all of these things. What I found is on average, these leaders were using 48% of people's available intelligence, know how expertise, insight, what we hire people for and what we hope people contribute. And you know, it's less than half.

[Kim Scott]

And I think because like what a waste for the organization, but also how terrible to have only half your talents being used.

[Liz Wiseman]

Yes. Yeah. And I think because I grew up in this high growth environment where talent was always scarce and you always needed more headcount than was available or you couldn't find the headcount in the market because you were creating something that didn't exist. And I thought, well, that seems like a huge waste. And not only is it a waste of the company resource, it's a waste of experience because of course, it creates this very defeating.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Liz Wiseman]

Work experience. And we don't need to describe this. Everybody has experienced what it's like working around a diminishing leader.

[Kim Scott]

Yes. I'll, I'll summarize for you. When I decided I had had a job that I had loved, and when I decided to leave, what I said was, this company hires the best people in the world and then tells them to sit down and shut up. That was how it felt for me anyway, at that moment.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

And that's, that's what I noticed is like, why, why would you do this? And, and then I studied these other leaders, I called them multipliers because people were, were at their best around them, people contributed fully around them. And, and what I noticed is that people actually not only were smart around them, they got smarter.

[Kim Scott]

Smarter. Yes.

[Liz Wiseman]

And, and that's, you know, that's a subtitle of the book, you know, why the Best Leaders Make Everyone Smarter. And the, these leaders were Getting on average, 95% of people's available intelligence. And that's after I threw out the data points where people said, oh, they got 120%.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. Yes. So they're getting, they're getting the whole person instead of half the person. Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

So it was a 2x difference. And I thought, well, okay, this is compelling math that, you know, if you, if you want to use all the intelligence in your team, then you probably need to lead in a different way. And the, the primary way that the diminishers were leading was really authoritarianism. It was command and control. And you know the problem with this. And it works well in an environment that's not changing very fast, it works fine. You know, when the leader is encountering problems that they've solved before, when a leader has all the answers, like it's actually a reasonable model in this case. But the problem is, what it limits is critical thinking and idea flow and people taking responsibility for their mistakes and truth telling. I think there's huge parallels to radical candor on this.

[Kim Scott]

Yes. Yeah, People are not going to tell the truth in an authoritarian environment.

[Liz Wiseman]

And when an authoritarian delivers feedback and let's assume it's accurate kind of responsible feedback, people have a hard time taking it like they're not a reliable narrator, like they're not a reliable observer. And because they are so emphatic, we either freeze up and tend not to hear it because we go into panic or we discounted because like, okay, this is the person who's constantly telling me what to do and correcting my stakes. So here they come again. And we've got a mental block because they lack nuance and subtlety.

[Kim Scott]

Yes. Yeah. I think also, I mean, another way of, I think saying the same thing you're saying is that when someone gives feedback in a, in an obnoxious way, so they're not being radically candid, even if they're not. Even if their intention is not to be obnoxious, if it lands for the other person as obnoxious, then, then you go into fight orf flight mode, you know, and, and then you literally physically can't hear what the other person is saying. And, and when you are, when you are working for someone who is acting like Some sort of authoritarian command and control jerk who behaves as though they are your superior. You're always in. Or most of us anyway, are in fight or flight mode all the time. And then you. Even if the person has a good point, you can't hear it. So they're wasting their breath.

[Liz Wiseman]

Absolutely. And, you know, it's kind of. I think we've all seen the scene where somebody's up on stage and they're speaking and they don't realize their microphone's not turned on.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

And it's kind of the image I get around these leaders is they're like barking orders, but nobody is listening to them.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Liz Wiseman]

And so what do they do? They bark.

[Kim Scott]

Louder. Louder. Yeah. And.

[Liz Wiseman]

And we tune them out and, you know, they become white noise or such an irritant that we push them out of organizations or we rebel. Like, people find a way to express their power when they're around people who are too powerful.

[Kim Scott]

Yes. People become manipulatively insincere in the face of obnoxious aggression. The vast majority of people figure out a way not to tell this person when they're making a mistake, and they wind up, you know, consciously or unconsciously sabotaging that person.

[Liz Wiseman]

Yeah. So, you know, we also have to look at not what do they do to thinking, what they do to action.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Liz Wiseman]

You know, around them, people, they don't step up, they don't step out, they don't speak up. People tend not to take responsibility for fear of, you know, the retaliation if they get something wrong. People have a really hard time collaborating, moving fast. So all of the subtleties around collaboration and agility and fluid forms of leadership where people arise and lead for a moment, but then recede and follow other people in the next moment, that kind of back and forth that we need when we're navigating through ambiguity. That doesn't happen around authoritarian leaders because you're creating a sense of hierarchy, power. And so people think, well, I'm low on the hierarchy and I don't hold a lot of power, therefore I will. Kim, what was the word you use when you left the organization? They're just like, sit down, shut up,

[Kim Scott]

sit down and shut up. Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

And do what you're told.

[Kim Scott]

Yes. Yeah. And, you know, it creates this. What's the term? Malicious compliance. So sometimes people who think that who. Who have an authoritarian boss who gives them a direct order, they think the order is incorrect, or they just don't like the boss anymore. And so they do exactly what the boss says in a way that dooms what dooms the project of failure? Because it's, you know, it's, as one of the ways I put it, is if you, if you're too authoritarian, you can't be a kick ass boss. You just make your team want to kick your ass

[Liz Wiseman]

and you're just kicking ass.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah, yeah. And, and there's more of them than there are of you. So eventually your team will, might win, you know.

[Liz Wiseman]

Absolutely. But then, you know, so I've spent, oh goodness, the last decade, almost two decades looking at the, the downsides of authoritarian leaders. And of course we see parallels in our political systems. Like what that model of leadership doesn't do well, what happens when leaders are overplaying the authoritarian hand? And so we see all this.

[Kim Scott]

Yes, yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

But I also see the case for moments of very strong commanding leadership.

[Kim Scott]

Yes. Okay, so when, when, when is it a good thing? Because I, I tend to be very, on this point, I usually see the both sides of most arguments on this point. I'm all collaboration, anti authoritarian, I'm a rebel.

[Liz Wiseman]

You've laid down the gauntlet for me. And I'm going to see if there are three scenarios that, that I see. The first is a true crisis. You know, you do not want democracy at work like in a moment of crisis. I think this came into focus sharpest for me when I was, oh goodness. It wasn't long after the book came out and I was invited to go and teach a workshop at the Yale Medical School and the Yale New Haven hospital system. And it was a group of physician leaders. They're all the academic, you know, they're the professors and the people who are the attendings, teaching residents. And I was worried that this wasn't going to go over very well. But actually we were having this great conversation and it was a one day program, but we broke for lunch and when we came back, this is when the mutiny happened. And I remember it so clearly. They, they said, okay, like we, we're not sure. Liz Wiseman, you from Silicon Valley, really understand what we do. You know, as if I've never been in a hospital before. And they're like, we deal with life and death moments. Like we hold people's lives in our hands. Like, you know, we, we have to like push on the heart and make it be in these moments of crisis. These, these aren't like times when we're going to be having a debate, asking questions, looking for people's native genius. Like, and so I asked, and of course, you know, I'm imagining like, what about Were my child.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Liz Wiseman]

Because they're like, when someone's flatlining in the or, it's not a multiplier moment. And, you know, of course, I was thinking of what would I want them to do if this were my child in this moment? Well, of course I would want them to tell people what to do. I would want the most, you know, expert physician, barking order, screaming. Because they're like, you know, well, we, we scream at people in these moments, but that's okay.

[Kim Scott]

But screaming. But as long as you also want. If your child is in that Or. My child. If my child's in the hospital, I want an operating environment. Yes. Where the most experienced surgeon is taking, you know, is taking charge. But if that surgeon is making a mistake, which they could do, I want the nurse to feel empowered to yell at that surgeon. Stop. And that is that. I mean, in fact, as you were talking, I was like, I was on vacation when my kids were little. I was on vacation. One of my kids was really sick. We had the Tylenol, but we didn't have the little thing on top to measure. And I said, I can't remember, is it two teaspoons or two tablespoons? I think it's two teaspoons. And we were on vacation with someone who's a surgeon who, you know, I tend to. And he was so sure that it was tablespoons. And I almost poisoned my children. Luckily, at the last moment, my. My husband saw and said, no, you know, but I was deferring, you know, and I'm the radical candor person, but I was deferring to authority, you know, and that almost. That almost had a disastrous effect.

[Liz Wiseman]

Well, I think what you bring up is kind of what I heard in this conversation I had with them, because I asked, well, what percentage of the time are you dealing with these life and death moments?

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Liz Wiseman]

And they took that as a serious question. They conferred amongst themselves and the, the, the collective thought was probably 3 to 5% of our time, obviously, depending on specialty.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, 35% of the time in

[Liz Wiseman]

those 3 to 5% moments, it's very appropriate for the leader to tell people what to do, to call the shots, to make things happen. But then I asked, well, how do you need to lead in the other 95, you know, 97 of the time.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

And see if. What happens if you called all the shots in the other moments? Like, what would you. You don't have, you haven't built the environment where people can execute quickly on your orders, and you haven't Built the environment where someone could say, actually, I think it's teaspoons, not tablespoons.

[Kim Scott]

Yes. Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

Like, when you lead, like a multiplier, by rule, like in those majority moments, you earn the right to have some commanding, controlling moments by exception. And I think that's what a lot of leaders forget. It's by exception.

[Kim Scott]

Yes. Yeah, no, it's such a good point. I was. I was just. You sparked another thought. So, as you can imagine, my kids are. Have been taught since they were very little, speak truth to power. So they talk back. And that's like a core value in our household. But the other day we were talking about what to do in an earthquake, and I said, this is the time I don't want you talking back. Like, if I say, go, go. So. So now I'm saying, you're right, I was wrong. But I think you're. But the majority time. And also they know that if I'm making a terrible call in that moment, they'll yell. And I might listen to them too. Like, I think. I think maybe you need. You need to create an environment where people can yell at each other.

[Liz Wiseman]

But I think if you lead well, listening to the voices, using the intelligence, it's like truly maximizing the intelligence of your team. In the moments of calm, like, you will build trust, confidence, capability that people. When you bark an order, people don't have to fight or flight. They just go, I got you, boss.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

And I think there's an adjacent. Like an accompanying skill that leaders need, which is this ability to signal we're in one of these 3 to 5% moments, like, it's an earthquake. And that's what you were doing to your kids. Like when mom says, I'm switching into a very different mode.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Liz Wiseman]

And. And we need the ability to switch into that mode and signal to our team, which is, okay, we have an exception. I'm taking charge, taking back control.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

But I intend to give it back to you.

[Kim Scott]

Yes. Yeah. And you might have to do something dramatic to signal that there was. There was. There was a guy who was working in one of the World Trade Towers when. When the planes hit and. And everybody was running. It was a moment of chaos, as you're describing, a moment of crisis. Everybody's yelling every. Everywhere. There were all these different conflicting instructions. Stay in your place. Don't go down. And he had been trained in the military, and he knew that they had to get out. And he jumped up on a desk and he dropped his pants. That got everybody's attention for a Second, and he said, go, go. And he saved a lot of lives that way. But, like, he had to do something dramatic to get everybody's attention and something that would be unex acceptable in any other situation.

[Liz Wiseman]

I see the headlines, Kim Scott, tell people drop.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah, that is not what I'm saying.

[Liz Wiseman]

No, no, it's, it's such a great metaphor, though, of, of like getting the attention. Okay. We are not in business as usual. So I think that's the first case when I look at, again, I was raised here in Silicon Valley. I started my career here. I started my life here. When I look at the case being made for founder mode, I have empathy for it.

[Kim Scott]

Okay. I have none. So I'm glad you're going to, you're going to educate me.

[Liz Wiseman]

So I have some empathy for it because we do see amazing things created that started in lone acts of genius. And, and I think that is one of the cases is like, you can start something with genius, but to build something enduring, you need genius makers running those organizations. And this was one that I feel like that case was sort of taught to me. The last one was taught to me by a group of physicians. This one was taught me in a conversation I had with John Doerr at Kleiner. And I had just written the book Multipliers. I was looking for endorsements. It was my first book. So I'm like, oh, how do I do this? And I asked him if he would read the book and consider offering an endorsement. He read it, quite liked it, and he sent me his endorsement. And I panicked because I thought, I can't put that on the book cover.

[Kim Scott]

So what did he say?

[Liz Wiseman]

Because it said something I didn't consider to be true. He said, like, what does every successful CFO and CEO have in common? There are multipliers. And I'm like, oh, I'm not sure that's entirely true, because, I mean, like, we live here in the heart of Silicon Valley. You drive up one on one and down to 80 these highways, and you can point to some companies that are there because they were led by people who might have had some diminishing qualities. And yes. Yeah, I, I kind of like such

[Kim Scott]

a nice way to say.

[Liz Wiseman]

And so I, I did what? I don't know, I just thought, well, let me edit that endorsement so it's. It's more true or it's true. And so I did, and I sent it back to John and, and he, he, you know, he took a little umbrage to this. He said, it's been my experience and of course, this is for those listening who maybe don't know who John is. You know, this is the venture capitalist behind Sun Microsystems, Amazon, Google. He has a lot of experience with this. And he said like, it's been my experience having taken a number of small founder led companies and helped grow them into like large enterprises is he said the only ones that make it in the end are led by multipliers. And he's like, my endorsement stands.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Liz Wiseman]

And I'm like, okay, pardon my edits. But I think what he taught me is like, there is a place for very strong willed leaders and it can have its place at the start. And I'm not suggesting it's required at the start, but it has a place where it can sit there and be healthy. And a lot of like we look at a lot of this technology and it was created by a brilliant person with, with a strong will who just might have been a jerk.

[Kim Scott]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Certainly, certainly being a jerk does not ensure that you will fail. I think that's, it's a great way of putting it. Yeah. But you don't have to be a jerk to succeed. And you will succeed. You'll be more successful if you can learn not to be a jerk.

[Liz Wiseman]

Absolutely.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

And, and you know, an authoritarianism is different than being a jerk. But I think there is a place for this. And, and as I thought, yeah. You know, it's sometimes required for liftoff on certain things.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

I think what we, what happens is those people look at those cases and they're so interesting and they're so compelling that people assume it's a way of leading. It's actually a way of breaking out of an orbit. It's a way of breaking out of maybe static ideas. And it has its place. But leaders have to figure out like, are we in one of those moments? It's a rare, it's like a small use case for leadership. Again, it's exceptional.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. I think in some ways here's how I would describe it and I'm going to take it back to writing, but I think it's any kind of innovation when you're trying to do something new. There's a million hard things, but I'm going to boil it down to two hard things. The thing that is second hardest is getting inside your own head and like figuring, thinking, like thinking is really hard work. And to a certain extent, like when my, when my little brother was four years old, he used to say, shh, I'm stinking. And what he meant is everybody else had to be quiet because he was thinking about something, something and he didn't. Any input was going to distract him from whatever it was, whatever profound thing he was thinking about at the time. And, and I find when I'm writing a book, when I'm trying to really come up with something new, I do have to, even though I believe in feedback to my core, I do have to go and be alone and, and like shut out all the noise in order to, to like rattle around in my own head. That's the second hardest part. The hardest part is getting back out of your own head. And that's where collaboration is important, including input from others. But if you get it too soon, it's like new idea, new ideas are fragile and they're easily squashed by distractions by people who don't even mean to squash them. Them, they're just walking by. And so you've, you've got to protect them. And that means sort of maybe ignoring everybody else for a little while, but then in order to really make something big of it, you need to get back out of your own head and that you can't do that in an authoritarian way. I don't think.

[Liz Wiseman]

And I think you're making this important point. It's, it's the escape route that leaders need and they forget about. Okay, so that's number two.

[Kim Scott]

Okay, so one is crisis, two is sort of innovation or something.

[Liz Wiseman]

Incubation of something.

[Kim Scott]

Incubation, yes.

[Liz Wiseman]

Sometimes that's one like one brain work and maybe one big brain kind of work.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

And then if I could try to make a case for a third, it might be course corrections. When, when you've got an organization like again, you can't scale authoritarian leadership. You can't scale diminishing leadership. Like it resists growth and scale because everything is threaded through the leader. But when you've got like a big behemoth and you have to make a rapid course correction, I think it's one of those cases where it's not a crisis, it's a pre crisis. It's. Sometimes we need leaders to come in with a heavy hand and say we have to do things differently because there's so much momentum and collective will and thought around the status quo that sometimes that turning of the ship needs a singular and a strong hand. And that might be a place for some authoritarian moments and never do. I think authoritarian needs to be mean spirited. It's just when you want, you want command and, and control in some of those moments, again, the secret is like Knowing how to get in surgically and then how to get back out so it doesn't become the way people lead and part of the culture. So that might be, so there might,

[Kim Scott]

there might be moments in time. One of, one of the things that what you're saying is bringing up for me is one of my favorite books of all time is called the dawn of Everything and, and, and by David Graeber, I think wrote it. And he goes through, he's a paleontologist, he goes through all these ancient cultures and in a lot of, in the US the, the Native Americans had kind of an anti authoritarian culture. So if you were. Which is not to say there was never a che. Like if you're going on a hunt, there was often a person who was leading the hunt and they got that they were the leader for a while or if you were going into battle, there was a leader for. But it was a temporary thing. And so you, so. And the, the time boundedness of the leader of the authoritarian leadership moment is provided some checks and balances. You weren't going to go too far, too, too far out of bounds if you knew that your power was going to be gone in two months.

[Liz Wiseman]

Yeah. One of the, the names that I give to this is just the practice of giving someone 51% of the vote. And you know, I think one of the downsides of let's say maybe an anti authoritarian point of view is that it's like, okay, well then everyone's in charge. Like this is truly.

[Kim Scott]

No, no, no, no. Yeah. I believe in hierarchy. I just don't think it's a value judgment. I think it's a way of. Or it's a job. You have jobs to do.

[Liz Wiseman]

And you know, I would much rather see leaders give someone on their team a narrow scope. Like when it comes to not even XYZ, when it comes to just X, like you get 51 of the vote.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

And 100 of the accountability.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

Because it's such a clear way of saying you're in charge of this hunt.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

You know, you're not in charge of everything.

[Kim Scott]

You're not in charge. You don't have control over other people. You have control over what these people do for this period of time.

[Liz Wiseman]

Yeah. And I love this notion. This actually came first from John Chambers when he hired a man named Doug to come in and head customer support. He says you get 51% of the vote. And what I love about it is it makes authority and control and power, which are things people knew need to get work done. It makes it clear and it makes it temporary. And it also makes it bounded because he didn't give 100% of the vote. He gave him 51.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

Which is also saying, hey, listen to me, take my ideas into consideration, Counsel with your colleagues, don't be a jerk. Keep, keep us posted. But you know, when in doubt, we're backing you on this. And I think it's a really healthy way to share power and authority in

[Kim Scott]

a way that allows them to move fast. Yeah, I feel, I feel a two by two coming on because I feel like we have this, or at least maybe it's just one. We have this idea that totalitarianism is bad. And I think that's kind of a shared. Still, even now, more or less, it sounds bad. Yeah. Totalitarianism, most people still agree it's a bad thing. And chaos is also bad, actually. Like, and, and I think, for example, I started my career in what was then the Soviet Union, and I think that we were so focused on celebrating the end of a totalitarian regime that we forgot about the dangers of chaos. And, you know, chaos birthed Putin, which was arguably just as bad as the totalitarian regime before. So chaos and totalitarianism are both equally terrible. So you do? I do actually, despite my rebel instincts, believe that we need some structure in order to collaborate. We need some systems and we need some structure. We just don't need too much unilateral decision making power into few hands, I think.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

And I would add to that, not only do we want, not want unilateral power, we don't want calcified structure where this becomes the God that everybody serves. Like, we want structures that are temporary and get jobs done, but structures that can be erected, be useful and be collapsed and rebuild into new structures.

[Kim Scott]

And yeah, we don't want bureaucracy.

[Liz Wiseman]

Yeah. And you can't do that under authoritarian regime. So I guess my, my point, you know, having studied some really great leaders, studying some really terrible leaders, seeing like the quirky genius founder types who have built enduring enterprises and seeing them navigate, this is like a command and control. Leadership is bad, but you need moments of control to build something, and you need to give control to as many people as possible along the way.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah, yeah. And I think in some ways Apple is not a bad example of this. Like, I think very often when people invoke founder mode, they invoke Steve Jobs. And I think that is a profound misunderstanding of Steve Jobs and the kind of leader, I think early on in his career he was perhaps in founder mode. But he learned actually to it. Like, there's a. There's a great podcast or interview that he did with Terry Gross, and he said, at Apple, we don't hire people to tell us what to do. It's the other way around. We hire people who tell us what to do. And I don't think that was just a good sound bite. I think he really was open. I mean, he was open to it, maybe in. In kind of a harsh way, but he was open to people. He wanted people to tell him when they thought he was wrong. He wanted. He. He was going to roar, but he wanted people to roar back.

[Liz Wiseman]

Yeah. You know, it's so easy for people to kind of conclude that he was a diminishing leader, but when you really look at how he led, particularly V2, and you talk to people who work for him, they. They say things like, I did my best work around them. Like, yes, necessarily. Nice about it, but I. I was big around them. Like, diminishing leaders make people small. Like, multiplier leaders are making other people big and smart and capable.

[Kim Scott]

And.

[Liz Wiseman]

And, you know, he did it in some harsh ways, but people say, oh, I did my best work around him. I would. I would go work for him anywhere.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Liz Wiseman]

I. You know, he. He was this incredible talent magnet. And so, you know, he had rough edges, but, you know, I don't know that he operated in founder mode as much as he was, like, operating constantly in builder mode.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah, I think he was. I think in the end, he was a multiplier. It was not, you know, a kind, sweet, gentle multiplier, but I think he was. I think he. He brought. He brought the best out of a lot of. I mean, he did some. I'm not saying he was perfect. He certainly made his fair share of mistakes.

[Liz Wiseman]

I mean, I heard Bill Campbell, who was, you know, quite well known to be his. His coach.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Liz Wiseman]

And I asked Bill, like, what about Steve? You know, and I remember Bill's, like, kind of really thought about it, and I think he was thinking about the full range and the long arc. And I remember Bill said, Steve Jobs was one of the great multipliers of all time.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

And, you know, I do think he created an environment where the best ideas could prevail. And, you know. Yeah, he's been interesting to really try to understand that.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's. It's a dangerous one to try to unpack because so many people have such strong. Such strong feelings. You know, I'm so grateful to you for doing the research. I mean, it's really hard. It's really hard to both tell great stories and gather the data. Will you share with with our listeners? Like how did you go about gathering this data and who are some of the people who influenced you? Because I think you really broke new ground when you were explaining why command and control does work.

[Liz Wiseman]

Yeah, I didn't mean to break new ground. I just had, I had a conundrum. I had something I had to resolve, but I think it did. I just. Thinkers50, this thought leadership kind of watchdog is putting out a book like 25 Ideas that Changed Management and Multipliers is one of them. I do think it kind of helped us reframe what a good leader looks like. For me, it just was a question I didn't have answers to. And I went out, you know, it crystallized in a coaching moment where I was working with a really, really smart leader who was just sucking the life out of his organization. And, and so I was explaining the concept to him and, and he got it and it was such a clear concept. Leaders who amplify versus Drain, you know. But then I went out looking for research to support it and there was none. And I was raised at Oracle, which was, you know, very data evidence based company, but you know, I was thrown in to all sorts of things I didn't know how to do. And so I was like, well, someone needs to research this and why not me? And because of my previous job when I worked at Oracle, I ran the education operation for the company. And so I hired a lot of professors to come in and teach strategy and et cetera. You know, one of those was Jim Collins. And I had read all of Jim's work and I was so fascinated and impressed. Like Jim is such an amazing thinker because he does these incredible contrast studies which is how I framed this study, which is let me contrast, let me hold all these variables constant and then let me look at this. And I tried to. I admire so much the way he showed shares and exposes his research process. Yeah, and his intellectual honesty. You know, I would ask Jim questions, he's like, well I can't answer that. I haven't researched it. I'm like, yeah, but you know, come on. And he's like, no, I really can't. Like I, I can't in any responsible way answer that without evidence to support it. And so I use him as a bit of a, a litmus test on this. But I had hired CK Prahalad, this incredible strategy mind out of the University of Michigan to come in And I just had so much admiration for the way that. That CK could look at a course of action, look at a strategy, and he could, within seconds, identify all the assumptions underlying that strategy and the assumptions between this course of action and that course of action. And I got to work with him for several years, and, like, it really taught me how to. To really not just categorize behavior, but to go, like, what is the thinking that leads to that? Because changing behavior is hard. But if you can change the core thinking and assumptions that are the mantle layer underneath that.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

Then you can make some widespread gains on that. And CK was. Was one of these people, and. And I think I. I channeled them. Clay Christensen was someone who, I think believed in me early on. I remember he said, you know, you and I should write an article together.

[Kim Scott]

Wow, that's a. That is a compliment.

[Liz Wiseman]

And I hadn't written anything, but he was really supportive. And so I feel like I had some really wonderful role models and mentors

[Kim Scott]

and some multipliers in your life.

[Liz Wiseman]

I had some multipliers in my life, and they made me feel smart around them. And so I'm like, well, okay, how hard can this be?

[Kim Scott]

Yeah, I'm gonna go get the data. Well, I'm so glad you did. I think one of the things that is so inspiring about your book is that not only do you describe diminishers, you describe the accidental diminishers. And I think that's really important because most bad managers are not bad people. They just haven't been taught. And so in some senses, your. Your work is like cognitive behavioral therapy for. For bad managers so they can become good managers. So describe the accidental diminishers. And then I really. I want to make sure we have time to talk about impact players, because I think you were very prescient about something when you wrote that book. But. But let's get. Let's give a couple of moments to the accidental diminishers.

[Liz Wiseman]

Well, this was the second big surprise of the research. The first big surprise was how much more multiplier leaders were getting from the people they led than the diminishers.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. Twice as much to four times as much. Right.

[Liz Wiseman]

Twice as much. Easily, conservatively done. Twice as much. The other big surprise was learning that most of the diminishing. So most. The majority of diminishing that is happening in our workplaces isn't coming from, know it all, Authoritarian control freaks, narcissists, bully micromanagers.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

Like, we know that they exist, but the majority of diminishing is Actually coming from the really well intended leader. And, and in many ways they're simply overplaying their strengths. And I can share a few ways. I, I, you know, I just was thinking like there's actually three main categories in how this happens. One is the over energetic leader.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Liz Wiseman]

The leader who's always on the, the idea fountain who's constantly like the always on leader. It's like they've got a lot of energy but people tend to be drained around them and avoid them.

[Kim Scott]

Yes. Yeah. Because they're going to get assigned 30 different things to do and they can only do two.

[Liz Wiseman]

Or the idea fountain, which is, is my biggest.

[Kim Scott]

This is my, this is my problem. I have 500 ideas a minute and most of them are terrible.

[Liz Wiseman]

Exactly. But we don't tend to filter them. We, you know, we're thinking out loud, well, what about this? Maybe we should do this. Like, why don't we try this? And I remember once going into it was a tech company here in the Valley and the cf, this chief technical officer, he pulled me aside. This is a very prominent tech company. And he said, you know, about 50% of my job is running around telling people that they don't need to act on the things our CEO is saying. Because the CEO is like, well, we can do this and we should explore this. And the tech teams were like, okay,

[Kim Scott]

so I guess we gotta do it. Yeah. Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

And it was crazy making in the organization. And he just was like, he's not serious about that. Please don't start. That's next year. And it creates all this vibration in organizations. But you know, then there's like the, maybe the ruinous empathy.

[Kim Scott]

Yes. The ruinously empathetic leader. Yeah. Who won't say anything.

[Liz Wiseman]

And that's like this cluster of accidental diminisher types. Like the rescuer who doesn't like seeing people struggle so they step in and help.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

And of course create dependency. Or the protector who doesn't even let people to get into the difficult. Like I'll handle the difficult conversations people so that they're building capability.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. And not their teams.

[Liz Wiseman]

People are wasting away around them. You know, the, the optimist. And this is another one of mine is just like, yeah, positive can do leaders.

[Kim Scott]

It's all going to be okay. Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

And, and they think they're signaling trust and belief. But actually people feel like, well, do you actually understand how hard it is.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

Actually understand how hard I'm working.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

And then I think you get people who in some ways there's founder mode running through a lot of these. But, you know, I think there's an overthinker founder mode type, like the strategist who does such. All the big thinking that everyone else just does their piece or the person who just has to get it exactly right. The perfectionist.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Liz Wiseman]

And we all know what it's like when you work for a perfectionist. Like nothing you do is good enough. People quit trying and actually stop doing their best work because it's going to get redone.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

Anyway. But those are the things that are the real killers of energy and ideas, and they're done with really good intentions. So they're sometimes harder to spot.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. So those are the accidental diminishers. Now, here's. Here's a theory. I'm going to lay a theory on you. Feel free to disagree with it, because I have, as we just describe all kinds of theories all the time. I. I feel like you understood the intent. I want to talk for a minute about the intentional diminishers. I feel like you understood before, certainly before I did, maybe before any of us, this authoritarian geist that was sweeping the world. And maybe, or, you know, you can call it founder mode or whatever, but. But maybe that's why you decided to write Impact Players. Like, you're like, all right, you know, in some ways, I think I better tell people how they can have impact even if their leader is not a multiple player. Is that. Is that fair? It was. The Impact players is maybe the survival guide.

[Liz Wiseman]

You know, Kim, I. I feel like this must be kind of what therapy is like when the therapist names something that you don't know is going on, but surely is, because I could not have articulated that. But I think in some ways Impact Players was me giving up on the leader side of the equation. Yes.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Liz Wiseman]

And because, you know, I had spent 10 years helping leaders be multipliers. But there's a bunch of people for whom they have a persistent diminisher. And they, you know, I. Here's the thing I think I've learned, studying leaders, studying impact players, is that there's a truth behind all of this, is that I think people come to work desperately wanting to contribute.

[Kim Scott]

Yes. They really. People want to work. Work should be like an expression of who you are, who doesn't want to express who they are.

[Liz Wiseman]

And people want to be big. And, And I think it hurts people when they have to play small at work.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Liz Wiseman]

And impact players is really a study about people who are playing big, like, regardless of who is leading.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. And.

[Liz Wiseman]

And in many ways, it's you know, what we found when. So I did this study looking at. We interviewed 170 managers and asked them to identify two people, both of whom were smart, hardworking, and capable, but one of whom was doing a fine job and the other of whom is doing, like, an amazing, impactful job. Like, really the difference makers of the organization. And, you know, what we found is that these were people who were just really adept at managing everyday ambiguity. Like, they were leaning in to all the uncertainty, while other people are, like, waiting to be told. They're like, oh, something needs to be done. Like, these are people who weren't just doing their job. They were doing the job that was needed. They weren't waiting for someone to anoint them as the boss. They were just taking charge of situations.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Liz Wiseman]

When things went wrong, they weren't escalating problems up the chain. They were, like, taking charge and giving. They were, like, bossing their bosses. Like, okay, boss, we have a problem. I'm on it.

[Kim Scott]

Here's what I'm doing about it. Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

Here's what I'm doing about it. And here's what I need you to do. Like, I need you to do this. We do handle this. You do this thing. I can't do. But I'm still very much the boss. And in many ways, they were. They were leading through influence. They weren't waiting around for good leadership to emerge. They were. They were the good leadership.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. They were the leaders they wanted.

[Liz Wiseman]

I remember once there's a story. I think it's actually in multipliers, but, you know, it's about this guy in the military who's got this terrible, diminishing boss. And. And he's, like, shrinking under this oppression. And then, you know, he's been waiting for his boss to be a better boss. And he's like, man, I'm in this deployment for, like, two years. It's a long time to wait.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

And then he decides instead of waiting for the boss that I wish I had, I'm going to be the boss that my team needs.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Liz Wiseman]

And, you know, in some ways, it's kind of. And this might hurt for the people who have had this experience, like, profoundly in their life. It's kind of when you say I have to be the adult in this relationship, like, I wish my adult were the adult.

[Kim Scott]

Yes. Yes. But I have to be. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I one time had a boss who was. He was really belittling, and I literally shrank. I mean, I'm only five feet tall. You can't tell because I'm sitting down, but I'm not tall. I didn't have half an inch to give. I was only 30 something years old and I shrank half an inch while I was working for this guy. You literally, I literally. My, my doctor couldn't believe it. She said, kim, you got to get out of this job. And yeah, so there's, there's, there's always don't forget to quit. That was, that was the advice that, that Gretchen Rubin gave me when I was in that job. But what are some other. So, so one advice is be, you know, be the boss you need in this situation. What are other things for, for the listeners for our list happen to be working for a diminisher, accidental or otherwise. What can they do to survive and even thrive despite having bad bosses?

[Liz Wiseman]

Well, actually, you know, I did a second edition of Multipliers just so I could put in a chapter on how to deal with diminishers. And to write that chapter, I went out and did another research project really understanding what is it people do when they're dealing with diminishers. How well does it work? And I can sum that up by saying most of what people intuitively do do in that situation, most of it exacerbates the problem.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Liz Wiseman]

We tend to make it worse because here's how this plays out. I have a diminishing boss. They're micromanaging, they're controlling. And so what do I do? I keep them out.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

Like, or, or like I argue my case. But like what happens when you, you argue with a. Know it all.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

What happens when you try to keep out of your business? The micromanaging, controlling boss.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Liz Wiseman]

Basically the diminishers double down on this and it actually makes the situation far worse. And what we found works. I could probably sum it up by saying the best way out of a diminishing situation is to multiply up.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Liz Wiseman]

Which is to say, okay, I'm going to be the multiplier. Not just I'm going to be the, the leader my people need. It's saying I'm going to value the intelligence and capability and contribution of my boss.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. Even though there may be other things you don't value about your boss, but I'm going to find the things that I do value.

[Liz Wiseman]

Maybe give you a couple of quick examples. One of my, the first would be having watched a lot of people go in to present to Larry Ellison, you know, a very strong willed kind of real leader, founder at Oracle, and I was in A lot of those meetings. And I would watch people brace for battle and go in and sort of battle him. And it usually did not. I mean, you're battling someone who studies samurais in like, the art of war, so, like, that's not going to go well. And then what I watched is the people who were successful and when I felt I was successful in those settings, it's people who were willing to listen and learn from him.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

And like, he's an incredibly smart person. I remember there were times where I was like, arguing. I'm like, I think he actually knows me more about this than I do. And so let me listen for what he can teach me.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

And let me go and fold that into my thinking. And, you know, it's an example. It's. It's what good leaders do is like, they listen and they learn from the people that they lead. And if you've got a diminishing leader and a know it all. And I'm not saying be a sick event. I'm not suggesting, not having a point of view of your own, but it starts with like, first really understanding what are they doing, trying to say, what are they trying to teach me and let me be a good student.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah, yeah. I think that. I think that is really wise. There's you. Even. Even if, if I have a belief, a deeply held belief, even if I have no intention of changing my belief, it's still valuable to have conversations with and, and listen to the other point of view. Because I sort of. John Stuart Mill said that a belief that never allows argument becomes a prejudice. And we don't want our most deeply held beliefs to become prejudices. And so there is value to listening to the other side, even when you disagree with it and even when you feel threatened by it because it's coming from a diminishing leader. There's some value in listening. You'll. You'll make better arguments if you listen.

[Liz Wiseman]

That reminds me of something that you do so well and I've read, you know, in your books, you talking about this. I've watched you in action doing this. But. And I think it's part of the strategy with dealing with the miniatures is rather than try to hide your mistakes from them is to like, really come clean and to admit them really quick. And then there's some. Here's the thing that you do so well. It's like when you make a case on something, you also lay next to it, the case against something which I think is incredibly powerful. And in some ways it just takes the Wind out of the diminisher sail.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. Yes. You know, and I learned that. It's funny. Here's how I learned to do that. I was in a meeting. This is the. It's the same meeting. The story I tell all the time about. I also did something well in that meeting, and I don't talk about this much as much, but, but I was. I was making a case that we should do X, not Y. And, and so I made the case for X, but then I also made the case for why. And, and so I shared the pros and cons of what I. Of my argument. And I walked out of the meeting feeling like I'd been kind of a wimp. I wasn't a strong enough advocate for my idea. And, and, and Cheryl said, you know, when you shared the pros and cons of what you thought, you earned credibility in that meeting. So it was praise given in a, you know, not good job. And I had no idea whether I had done the right thing or the wrong thing. So it's like one of the good, good things about giving praise to your boss. Maybe your boss is doing something right. It's not kissing up to give praise to your. You and I talked about this when, when impact players came out. It's not kissing up to give praise to your boss. It's letting them know what's working for you so they can do more of it, you know, and your peers and your employees, if you have them too.

[Liz Wiseman]

Well, and I think we often forget that bosses are people, too.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Liz Wiseman]

And we assume that they're like, somehow these automatrons are like, I don't know, sterile monster types oppressing us. But, like, they're just people, too, and they want to be heard. And, And I think if you work with your boss in a way that they feel smart around you, you're going to get a lot of latitude. I remember one Oracle executive who's the president. He just, I think he said something like, like, Liz, when I work with you, I feel like I can do anything. And it wasn't, like, behave badly, that kind of anything. It was like, I feel like we can tackle things. And I think it was because I had so much respect for him and, like, he was the president of the company. He had so much more authority and power than me, but he was also a human being who wants to be smart and feel smart. So a couple more things. Let me give you a couple examples that came out of Apple. I had this coaching assignment at Apple, and it was to get a couple executives but they called Steve ready.

[Kim Scott]

Okay. Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

And I think Steve and Tim, because Tim was serving as the COO at the time because they were getting ready to take on a pretty big job where they would have to be in these battles.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

Yes. In these rooms where things were happening. And so I went and interviewed people who were really good in how they worked with Steve in particular. And let me give you these two things I learned. One was from one of the senior executives in marketing. She said when I would go to present ideas to Steve, like her ideas, things she had come up with, and she was advocating for them with Steve, she said sometimes he would start to sour on them and he would get argumentative. She said, I never persisted.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

When he would start to turn, she would say, okay, like, tell me what you're thinking. Da, da, da. And she would say, you know, you've given me some things to think about. Would it be okay if I take a couple days, think about this and come back to you with like a modified plan?

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

And the answer was 100% yes.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

And there was always time where she got to come back and she didn't drop her thinking. She incorporated his thinking. And those plans always got a break. Approved.

[Kim Scott]

Yes. That is brilliant. Okay. That's a good tactic. Anybody listening can do this. Yeah. Don't like if you get, if you're getting into a head to head battle that you're gonna lose. Like, take a step back, incorporate people's thinking.

[Liz Wiseman]

Like, what boss doesn't want someone to say, hey, can I have some time to think about what you just said and reflect that in my thinking and

[Kim Scott]

improve what I'm suggesting? Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

Here's another one that came out of Apple I was talking to. This is Ron Johnson who was running Apple retail at the time. And I asked him, like, what do you do? Because Steve could micromanage and want to take over. And he said, well, when I take a plan to Steve, of course I insist that my team does their best thinking. And so this would be like a plan for a new store.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

And he said I would take it to Steve and then he would ask a single question. Now here's what I think is good. Like a lot of us, one of the things multiplier leaders do is they look for people's what I call their native genius. The thing they do naturally like their gifts and they use them. So Ron is someone who is smart enough and mature enough not to wait for his boss to say, oh, Ron, you're brilliant at retail and design. Like, just go for it.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

He's like. He knows he's working for someone who has strong views.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Liz Wiseman]

And great ideas and a great aesthetic. And so he knew what his boss's native genius was.

[Kim Scott]

Okay. So, like, once you know what your

[Liz Wiseman]

boss is good at, put that to work for you. So Ron would make sure that his team did their best work. He would take it to Steve, and then he would ask pretty much the same question all the time, because he knew what Steve was good at, which is making things better.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. How could I make this better? Here's my idea. How could I make it better? Yeah. It's inviting. He's soliciting feedback before he gets it.

[Liz Wiseman]

Exactly. And, you know, so it was never this tug of war. It was like, oh, okay, well, that's good. But you know what? We could probably replace that cement with plexiglass, and we could probably create more light if we did this. And Ron would leave with, you know, really good ideas made even better.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Liz Wiseman]

And Steve can, like, see his fingerprints on things. And, like, if your boss isn't, like, looking for your brilliance, like, make sure you understand your boss's brilliance. And, you know, you can also make your own brilliance easier for people to use by saying things like, well, this is the thing I'm really good at. And, you know, like, I'm really good at synthesizing complexity down to kind of a few simple ideas. I. I'd be happy to help with A, B, or C, but, like, that's. That's what I'm good at, and here's how you can use me.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. Yeah. Because people don't always know what you're good at, but you probably do know what you're good at. Yeah. So I love this. I. I could talk to you all day, but. But I think I. I think where we're coming down is. Is what your work is about. And to a certain extent, what my work is about, too, is about getting on a level playing field and building relationships. Like, that's what it's about. And there are a few things more damaging to a relationship than a power imbalance. So in some senses, multipliers about how leaders can lay their power down and get on the same playing field, but if your leader doesn't happen to be doing that, impact players. And it's really about how you can step up and get on the same. Because. Because you've got to get on the same level if you're gonna work, if you're gonna build a real relationship.

[Liz Wiseman]

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's about how to how to build and use power. Well, which, you know, influence is kind of the word we use for that. And you know, if I can add to that, I think it's a really abstract, astute observation I would add into it. I think where I find so many people become accidental diminishers is not because they're power mongers.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Liz Wiseman]

It's that they don't understand the power

[Kim Scott]

they hold or they're denying that there's power in the room. You know.

[Liz Wiseman]

Exactly. They don't realize that if they toss out a few ideas, like people are going to take it seriously if they offer to help people feel like, well, I have to accept the offer of help. Like in many ways what I want leaders to do is to really understand power and understand how to use it, how to share it, how to like, use your own, but temper it, how to give other people power so that power becomes like an, an equilibrium, like a level playing field for which upon which people could do great work.

[Kim Scott]

I love it. I love it. Well, Liz, always a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining me today and sharing your wisdom with the world and for having such a huge impact on, on my thinking, both as a leader and a writer.

[Liz Wiseman]

Oh, well, thank you so much. I appreciate the conversation.

[Kim Scott]

Love chatting.

[Liz Wiseman]

This podcast is based on the book Radical Candor Be a kick ass boss without losing your humanity by Kim Scott. The Radical Candor podcast theme music was composed by Cliff Goldmacher.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

Follow us on LinkedIn, Radical Candor the company and visit us on radicalcandor. Com.