← Radical Candor: Communication at Work
Radical Candor: Communication at Work
Returning to the Office & Remembering Why We Left 7 | 18
00:44:21
Back-to-office is back—and it’s messier, weirder, and more pointless than ever.
Loading summary
Transcript69 lines
- [00:01]
A
This episode is brought to you by kpmg. Making an Impact is how KPMG helps make the difference. KPMG applies advanced tools and strategic thinking to convert data into actionable knowledge and deliver value by improving performance through transformation, modernizing processes with technology, harnessing the power of data, navigating complex MA transactions, and enhancing trust among stakeholders. Go to KPMG US Advisory to learn more. KPMG make the Difference does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void? But with LinkedIn ads, you can know you're reaching the right decision makers, a network of 130 million of them. In fact, you can even target buyers by job title, industry, company seniority, skills, and. Did I say job title? See how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Get started at LinkedIn.com campaign terms and conditions apply. Hello everybody, and welcome to the Radical Candor Podcast. I'm Jason Rosoff.
- [01:08]
B
I'm Amy Sandler. And today we're talking about a topic that is on everyone's mind and for some people is becoming their nightmare, which is return to office policies. When do they work? When do they do more harm than good? So let's, let's dive in. And I wanted to bring a little bit of data before we start talking from our own perspectives. There's a recent McKinsey piece called how to to Get Return to Office. Right. And we'll put that in the show notes and what they noted, they did some surveys in 2023 and 2024, and the article noted that there was a significant increase in employees working mostly in person, from 35% in 2023 to 68% in 2024. And so just against that backdrop, we've also got lots of stories. And again, we'll put some articles in the show notes. We've, we've heard stories, you know, I'm sure you've seen in the news organizations where people are coming back to the office, don't have a desk for you or a meeting room or even, or even wifi. They're folks who are driving hours and they find that there is no toilet paper in their office. And so just at a high level, Jason, this doesn't seem like it's super productive or profitable for companies in terms of setting people up for success.
- [02:28]
A
Here's the thing, like I want to say off the top, like, I have a strong bias against forcing People to work together in an office. Radical Candor is founded as a fully remote company, has been remote from day one, and I feel like it presents its own set of challenges. But there are challenges to working together in an office also. And I feel like the benefits greatly outweigh the costs of being able to work remotely. So I am biased. That is my perspective.
- [03:04]
B
Jason. I'm curious because we'll get into some specific examples, but just building on the Radical Candor example, how much of our ability. When you say founded as a remote company, how much of that is size and complexity part of the picture? So is there ever a number at which you might change your. Your philosophy on being remote?
- [03:26]
A
First, I don't think so. And that's because I tend to believe that talent is. Is very evenly distributed geographically and the. And that I have a combination of compassion and awareness that there are very good reasons why people might need to stay wherever they are. And so from my perspective, like, the reason would have to be incredibly compelling because it's going to make it much harder for us to hire great people. So. And hiring is one of the most expensive things that any organization does. It's extra expensive for small organizations because, you know, even a small organization, you don't have recruiters, you don't have, you know what I'm saying? Like, you don't have all of these resources available to you in order to, you know, generate a pipeline of candidates, let alone interview them. So when you spend your time doing that, it means you're not doing something else. So I think as you grow, there's actually, it's easier to envision the co locating everybody in a physical space. And especially if you grow large enough that you can have multiple spaces where, you know, like, you might have something in. In the Bay Area and you might have something in L. A and you have something in Toledo. Like, like there's. I could imagine a world in which you have offices around the country, and it's easier to justify that. So. But that to me does not make it strategically valuable necessarily to force everybody into the office because there's a bunch of things that come along with forcing people to work in the office, and the biggest one is commuting time. And from my perspective, like, in many cases, because the United States is designed around car travel and not around mass transit, that means you lose like, one to two hours a day of productive time because you can't do anything else beside drive your car. I mean, you can. I remember when I was commuting to work in New York when I was, when I lived there, um, and I was commuting down, if anybody's familiar, down Route 9 and Route 9A, which is like goes right down the Hudson river, so it's actually quite beautiful. But I remembered, like, I would look across at people commuting alongside me and there'd be.
- [05:52]
B
Is there, is there makeup being put on?
- [05:54]
A
Oh, yeah, women, Women put, putting on like eyeliner and mascara and stuff. Like while driving, I remember seeing a guy with a newspaper spread fully out across his steering wheel. I saw a person reading a novel, like one of those 400 pagers, had it held in his hand. On the one hand it was terrifying. And the other hand, after I did it for five years, I understood it was like this time feels so wasted that I'm between home and work. There's no benefit to be gained during that time. And I think. And when you add, when you add to that the like, housing shortages that we have all over the, all over the country now, you have like a real, like you have like a massive logistical problem that essentially companies are saying, ah, you know, our employees can suck it up. Like that's, that's a cost that they have to bear. We don't care how they pay it.
- [06:51]
B
It's. I think it's a great point, Jason, and mindful that we've got listeners around the world, some folks who might have great public transit systems or trains or actually bike to work. I'm living in Los Angeles so that I am not putting myself in that category. A lot of individual. And I had a job where I did actually have a very long commute and not just the time of the commute, but actually the physical toll and the energy of that drive, which was. It definitely took some stress. So. So for the most part, net, net. That time is a negative. But just aware that for some folks Maybe it's a 20 minute train ride and that's their time when they catch up on the newspaper or it's their bike and their exercise. So there's a world where for some people, but I suspect to your point, like the majority, it's. It's a net negative.
- [07:42]
A
Yeah, so. So like the. Most of the arguments in favor of getting people to come to the office fall into one of two categories. One is people are more productive when they're in the office than they are when, when they're at home. And I do believe that there's probably some data to support that somewhere. Like there's some types of jobs where it's very hard to stay productive at home. But I don't believe that, that, that, that there is solid data that that, like, translates into results. Uh, we were talking right before we started the recording, Brandy was saying, like, that we couldn't locate anything that said, oh, companies who force people to work together in the office are somehow more profitable than their counterparts that allow people to. To. To work remotely. So we don't, we don't have, like, outcome data for that.
- [08:38]
B
Yeah, and there are some, some jobs. Like, in the McKinsey research, they noted that healthcare systems and services jumped to 73% in person. Advanced industries like manufacturing, aerospace and defense automakers were up from 42% to 73%. I mean, there's, there's certainly roles that for some folks manufacturing like you, you physically have to. To be there.
- [09:01]
A
Abs. Absolutely. And so, so, like, the productivity is. Is like one. One angle, and then the other angle that I've heard quite a lot of people talk about is like, innovation. Like, it's hard to, like, be creative and collaborate effectively. And it's not so much about efficiency of, like, the work getting done, but. But instead of. It's. It's an argument that's being. That's around creativity. Like, creativity is something that is fostered by being together in person. And I think that that is. There's some truth to, you know, like, energetically, like, it's different to collaborate or brainstorm in person. And so I don't think that either of those reasons are necessarily bad. But if those are your reasons, then why would you send people to an office with no wifi and no toilet paper that it just, you know what I'm saying, like, it just doesn't hold water for, you know, potentially dangerous toilet paper.
- [10:07]
B
Sorry, I could. I couldn't help myself.
- [10:12]
A
That's the part that doesn't make any sense. So, like, if your goal is to foster innovation, like, a big part of creating an environment that is generative, that helps people to be more innovative is about meeting people. Like, starts with meeting people's basic needs, like food and sanitary needs and stuff like that. You can't be creative if you're like, I don't know where I'm going to go to the bathroom this afternoon. That is too stressful. Beyond that, you need to make them feel psychologically safe. And I think that that's the other side of this is, like, when you send someone into an office where, you know, there's. They're not. They don't have all the tools that they need to do their job, what are they supposed to take away from that like that to me seems to be a very strong signal that you, you are not important, your success is not important. And I have to imagine that that does nothing good for psychological safety. So like innovation is sort of out the window and then efficiency is also out the window. You know, if you, if you can't, you don't have, you don't have wi fi and you have to like go down to the cafe around the corner to like do your email. Like how is that possibly efficient?
- [11:27]
B
Yeah, and sort of the unintended consequences. One of the things we were talking about before we started recording Jason, was how, you know, we're recording this April 2025. So many companies have sort of asked and answered this question. They have already been implementing it. And so one of the things that was on my mind was speaking to folks who may either be presented with a change, maybe their company has made a change in the last year or two or they have been going day to day with this new change and there might be some kind of bubbling resentment that has not been stated because of a was made they felt like they didn't have a lot of control over. So I wanted to shift the conversation maybe into both some practical tactical tips for how people can have some of these conversations either about a new change or about an existing change that we feel like we never really were heard or we're not set up for success, et cetera. How does that sound as a direction?
- [12:28]
A
Let's do it.
- [12:29]
B
Okay. So interestingly, Brandi had the topic and I, I think we all probably have various our own personal experience with this topic and I, I had recently had a conversation with a friend who was in a situation where they had been hired in a remote role and really loved the like that was a top priority for them, was actually having a remote role. That was one of the top reasons why they, they chose that job. They have a dog. You know, they really appreciate that, that that benefit of working remote and the company, they work for a larger company and learned that we are all going back to five days a week. No sort of ifs, ands or buts. It's five days a week, we're all going back to an office and I think there's different locations and so there might be a bit more of a spread rollout. But I guess what advice might you have? First of all, for this person who, you know, I signed up for remote now you're it's a new job, but they really like the job. But then also like, what about for their manager who didn't really have a say in the decision. But how can that manager best guide this person in a way that's helpful given potentially their seeming lack of control over the change?
- [13:49]
A
Yeah, so I've thought about this because, you know, we're recording this and in. In April 2025, and, you know, there's a lot of uncertainty in the world at, at the moment. And I, I've. I have thought about this from the context of, like, you know, Radical Candor's business could be, you know, really negatively affected in some way by, you know, economic uncertainty or something like that. And I was like, you know, what, what if. And this is sort of my, you know, has sort of been my, My dream job. Like, I get to, you know, I'm getting to build this company and work with fabulous people and, and do this remotely. Like, it has everything that I want. But I was like, you know what it. What if. You know what, what if Radical Candor did. Didn't make it through. Through this recession? And what I realized for myself is, like, so would I hold steady and say, remote is a must. Like, I must have a remote gig in my next. In my next job. And what I realized is, like, as much as I really value that, like, if things were. That things would have to be so bad for that to actually happen, that I would be very squarely in survival mode, and I'd be like, I would do what it took.
- [15:13]
B
It's almost like Maslow's hierarchy of needs. We're like, okay, we've got, like, we're paying the bills, and life is pretty good. Now I can worry about sort of the net ads versus I need a paycheck, if I'm hearing you right.
- [15:25]
A
Exactly. And so I was like, because, like, we're, you know, we're. And just to be clear, like, we're optimistic. Like, we think there's an opportunity for Radical.
- [15:38]
B
Thank you for saying that. I was like, please just say this is sort of just a wild scenario.
- [15:45]
A
Yeah, like, we, we believe there's plenty of opportunity for Radical Candor, the company and the idea to continue to grow even in the face of this uncertainty. In some ways, Radical Candor becomes more important in the face of uncertainty. And so I, I, I don't think this is going to happen. But I, what I was realizing as, as I was looking, as I was preparing for this podcast is like, I think I was trying to, like, put myself in this frame of mind, like, what would it take? And I do think it would take some shakeup that was that really, like, put me or my family at risk to want to go back to the office. So I really sympathize with this person of feeling like, you know, a rug has been pulled out from under them, because that's not the case right now. Right. It's not like the company saying, look, we're in dire financial straits and there's some extra costs that we're bearing because everybody's remote. And now we need to bring everybody together. It's not like. Or, you know, we simply can't. We're too inefficient. And this is the only way we can imagine becoming more efficient. Like, doesn't sound like those are the arguments that are being made. It's more of like a. I think.
- [16:57]
B
That'S part of it is. Yeah, I think had there been, like, a clear articulation of how we sort of the process by which we went through to arrive at this. And these are the clear, you know, productivity gains that we're expecting. But I don't think that was as. As clearly communicated.
- [17:14]
A
Right. So I think this is like the. So, like, part of this is like, are you in survival mode or not? Because I think, like, if you're in survival mode, I think you do what you have to do to meet the moment. And that doesn't mean necessarily not looking for another remote job. But, like, from my perspective, if I was in this person's position, I wouldn't quit this job. Like, I. If it was possible for me to. To go to the office, like, I would be looking for another remote job starting today. Like, that. That's what I would be doing is I would be job hunting starting right. Right this minute. And for two reasons. One, because there. It's no longer a remote job, and that was very important to me. And two, because the way that this decision was made, I feel like, is an ill omen for how this company is being. Is being run. And so both of those things would make me want to look for another job, but I wouldn't give up the job that I have in order to do that. So I probably, if I was literally in their position, I'd be willing to, like, figure out a way to make the sacrifice to stay in that job until I could find something else. And as I'm looking for other things, I would prioritize remote work. But the process of looking for something else is also really useful because sometimes you get a perspective that, like, hey, the grass is.
- [18:25]
B
Oh, hey, life, action. Things are. Things are pretty good.
- [18:29]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so like that, that, that's probably like step one is if you believe that the remote work is important to you, even though if you're frustrated, I would try to find a way to make it work. And then we can answer the question about how to talk to your manager about what might make it work.
- [18:52]
B
And it sounds like step zero is actually even. Are we in an existential moment both for myself with my career and then sort of the more macro stuff which might feel uncertain but is certainly important to look at in your, in your calculation.
- [19:08]
A
Yeah. Because I think if you get yourself into a situation where life feels unmanageable for any number of reasons, it's going to make even a good job feel bad. You know, like, even if it's like objectively, like, I like the people that I'm working with, I'm making enough money, but like now life is unsustainable because I'm commuting at two hours a day and it's always stressful because there's no one to take care of my dog. And like, you know what I'm saying? Like, all these things can add up. So I think that's the first thing is like, is it livable? Like, is it essential for my base level of happiness to be remote? Or could I try to be back in the office? Could I give myself the time? Assuming that I can't afford to quit right now, which I don't think most people afford to quit their jobs at the moment, can I give myself the time to like, explore other options? That, that would be like my, my sort of step zero, step one.
- [20:13]
B
So you know that feeling when you're doom scrolling and suddenly it is an hour later and you feel even worse. I have been there, but lately I've been swapping that time for something way more energizing. Masterclass. These are not your average online classes. This is Robin Roberts teaching effective and communication. Chris Voss teaching you how to win any negotiation, and our very own Kim Scott teaching you how to use radical candor to have those tough conversations you've been putting off. Whether I am in between meetings or just swinging a string toy for my cat, I pop into the app. I soak up real insights that I can apply immediately. And I'm not alone. 83% of members have used what they learned to improve their lives. With plans starting at just 10amonth, billed annually and over 200 class to choose from, Masterclass is a no brainer. So get an additional 15% off any annual membership today@masterclass.com radical that's masterclass.com radical. For an additional 15% off, go learn something that'll change your day and maybe your life.
- [21:27]
A
The Jack Welch Management Institute at Strayer University helps you go from I know.
- [21:31]
B
The way to I've arrived with our.
- [21:33]
A
Top 10 ranked online MBA. Gain skills you can learn today and apply tomorrow. Get ready to go from make it happen to made it happen and keep striving. Visit strayer.edu Jack WelchMBA to learn more. Strayer University is certified to operate in Virginia by Chev and has many campuses, including at 2121 15th Street north in Arlington, Virginia.
- [22:00]
B
And Jason, you know, as you're sharing that, what's coming up is, you know, people have been through so much the past few years with adjusting to the pandemic and the uncertainty there. And one of the pieces of research that they talked about in McKinsey was around was around burnout and this idea like were there differences burnout between remote and in person workers? And interestingly, that number was pretty similar between remote and in person. And they were saying about a third of people feeling burned out, whereas hybrid workers, they said about a quarter felt burned out, which I thought was, was interesting. And what they were sharing in the article was that when you go physically back to the office, like your job isn't just about your individual tasks in an office. People might be more likely to stop by your office. There might be, you know, more of those sort of spontaneous or serendipitous interaction that which could get to more productive outcomes, but also could be more work. Like you might just feel like if you're someone, especially someone maybe who's more introverted and actually part of why, why they like working from home is they're like, I just, I just want to do the work. I don't really want to do the office. Water cooler chat, which Brandi, I won't speak for you as our producer, but I think you're in that category. Like that feels like a net negative for someone versus someone else who might actually be like, oh, you know what, I don't want the commute, but it actually would be kind of cool to have some more in person time.
- [23:28]
A
Yeah. So I think this is, I heard this describe I'll see if I can find a link to an article or something that describes this. But I heard, I remember reading something maybe like last year which is essentially about this idea of weak ties that human beings like we can't have that many meaningful relationships. You know, there's a handful of meaningful relationships that we can maintain at any given time, but that human beings require. Like, there's a need, an underlying need for most people to have these sort of, like, weak ties to a fair number of people. And there's a. There's correlation between, you know, more of these weak ties actually make people feel better about whatever it is that. That. That they're. That they're doing. And the way that they described it is like. Amy, you. You always tell us about your barista at.
- [24:20]
B
I literally was thinking of Starbucks when you were saying that.
- [24:23]
A
Yeah, yeah, but that's. That's a great example, which is like, you're not friends. You're not, like, hanging out on the. On the weekend or something like that, but you. There's a. There's a connection there. Like, you care about each other. You demonstrate that care in some.
- [24:37]
B
They put little hearts on my. On my cup next to my name.
- [24:41]
A
They put little hearts on your cup. Speaking of which, a slight detour. A friend of mine from Icon Academy days, his name is Bilal. And as you might imagine, that is not a name that often gets written correctly on a Starbucks cup. And he took a picture. He posted a picture on Instagram and of a cup that said Blob on it. They put B L O B as his name. And he's like, such a chill dude. He was like, hey, any name with a B and an L in it, I will accept on my Starbucks cup.
- [25:19]
B
Oh, my. I don't think I'm ever gonna look at my cup again. My cup overflows from that story. Thank you, Jason. So back to the weak ties before I derailed us with the blobs.
- [25:30]
A
Yeah, so the. This idea of, like, you know, you see the same people when you're walking your dog and you say hi to those people, that for some people, maybe you don't have a dog and you don't drink coffee. And now all of a sudden, you're living in a world that feels very isolated because you don't have any of these sort of, like, weak ties. And for those people, even if you're introverted, the value of someone stopping by your office say, like, hey, Jason, like, how you doing? You know what I'm saying? Like, that. That sort of interaction is very important for. For a healthy psyche. And so the return to the office, I think, can present a real opportunity. And I think that's why, as much as there are many people who feel quite frustrated about return to the office, I think there is. I think there's some recognition that there's an element of that, but it's not about efficiency and it's not about, let's.
- [26:24]
B
Call it what it actually is, right?
- [26:26]
A
It's about like, it's about sort of like it can help meet this very basic human need, which is like, to know that other people actually give a crap about you and you're not alone in the world. And I do think that there are other ways to accomplish that. And I think one of the things about remote work is because we rely so much on these casual interactions to provide these things. I'm literally walking past you on the street and I recognize your dog and I'm like, hey, you're the beagle. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
- [26:58]
B
I have a new friend. I cheddar.
- [27:03]
A
Like that, that, that's quite important. And we didn't really do enough to help foster those types of, those types of interactions in a remote world. It's sort of a little bit more complicated to figure out how to do that. And if you add on top of that that people didn't have good hygiene for one on one conversations, now it can feel like you're sort of like literally alone. You know what I'm saying? And there's a wait, just to wait.
- [27:29]
B
Can I just, can you clarify what you mean by hygiene? Because I think people are now thinking of like, were they not wearing like, they were wearing soft pants? Like, just. You're talking about like frequency, not literal.
- [27:38]
A
Hygiene, correct frequency of like one on one conversations or like creating a space for social interactions on the team as opposed to making everything about like, we got to get through this, you know, agenda and everything has to be like. But because we weren't used to that, for a lot of people, that transition felt incredibly difficult and sort of upsetting in some way. Like, and so like there, there's some good to be had from like the weak tie part of like being back in an office setting. But for me personally, like, I. Some of that is good, but it's also really hard for me to like, get work done when I am. There are like moments when that interruption. There's no, like, the cost of the interruption is so much higher than the benefit of the social interaction that it's sort of like almost hard to justify ever allowing it to happen.
- [28:47]
B
I have an idea of what you're talking about. I'm assuming you're like just knee deep into like some project and then some, oh, hey, Jason, like, where'd you get the sweater? Like, is there an example of when that's. Is it just pulling you out of your current thinking process?
- [29:01]
A
Yeah, like there I, I could I speak specifically about like, you know, maybe I'm writing a piece of code and like in my head I've like loaded up all this context. Not of only like literally what I'm typing into the computer, but like how the system works and how what I'm doing is connected to something else. And like I just read a piece of documentation that describes in detail like what I'm supposed to. The way I'm supposed to approach a particular problem and someone pops their head in and was like, hey. And then I'm like, oh, like, and, and I'm not mad. Like, like, here's the interesting thing for me because I value like the, those. The connections with other people and I know how well intentioned what they're doing actually is. Like, I don't find myself getting mad, but I do when I go back to it, it takes me 10 or 15 minutes of like aging back in the context to actually get started again. And so the real downside of that is like, if then someone comes in 25 minutes later to say hi, now I'm in this like state of distress because I'm like, I'm never gonna be able to finish this project. Like a, a one minute interruption every 30 minutes would mean I never get the project done.
- [30:13]
B
Yeah, I see Brandy nodding a lot of. Just sort of around that like startup cost and we've talked about the need for think time. I'm thinking, Jason, of like the, the virtual equivalent, which is like getting a slack notification or something like that. But we can, we can manage that. We can turn that off. We can, you know, minimize the window. It's hard to like, minimize the human window a little bit.
- [30:36]
A
You don't want to like, I think it's like it, it, it's a, I've seen a lot of organizations try to make it okay to sort of like nip those things in the bud and be like, you know, put a sign on your door that says like, I'm like, focus time, please don't interrupt or something like that. But I feel like it seems really rude no matter how many ways you try to make it nice to. Especially if someone, you know, knocks on your door. Maybe you don't have the sign up or something like that and someone knocks on your door. I think it seems, it's very hard to make it not seem rude to be like, hey, sorry, like, could, could you come back later? Because like, I, if I don't refocus on this in the next 10 seconds, it's going to cost me 20 minutes.
- [31:19]
B
Lost forever. Yeah. Yep.
- [31:22]
A
Yeah.
- [31:24]
B
Can I just add something? I also think. Well, a lot of people don't have an office to close the door. So before the pandemic, there was a huge focus on, like, hot desks and the open office, and you just take your laptop and sit in an available space or if you work in like a cubicle farm, so someone else's distraction, like, distracts you. And I started wearing headphones when I worked at L.L. bean because there was like hundreds of people in the cubes and just if someone came to talk to the person next to me, then I'm taken out of what I'm doing and you just have to learn to, like, tune everyone out, which is really hard.
- [32:08]
A
Yeah, totally fair. And I think, like, it further illustrates why the actual way that many people are forcing folks back to the office is so ill conceived. Because, you know, like, I was using. I can't remember the last time I had an office. Like, I have to go back. I think it's like, I don't even know at least 15 years since I've had like an, like an actual, an actual office in an office building. And to your point, I think if there are not enough desks and there's no toilet paper, there's no way they're taking into consideration, like, how much Grantee.
- [32:51]
B
Is now in her neighbor's conversation.
- [32:53]
A
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, like, we're so far away from that in the way that a lot of this stuff is being implemented. And to me, those are real costs that are going to be very hard to calculate, but will be borne out totally.
- [33:05]
B
And I think one of the things to go back to that McKinsey piece was they were talking about the difference between. They were looking at, like, generational differences. So baby boomers, 80% satisfied for in person work, Gen X, 73% millennial 72 Gen Z, 68%. So, you know, more for baby boomers, but not like a marked difference. But what was interesting, when they compared male and female workers about their satisfaction with different working models, there were similarities, but the biggest difference was that women reported lower scores and lower satisfaction for in person. And what the research found was that women rated different practices, such as around Jason. I think some of the things that you think are important in person, such as collaboration, skill development, mentorship, especially mentorship, women rated much lower than men. So I thought that was interesting of, you know, potentially the, oh, we're going to have more mentorship and more skill development and collaboration in person. Women, especially compared to Men rated that lower in person. And the reason I mention it was I was also thinking of neurodivergence. And for me, as someone who it would be very hard for me to focus, even with headphones, even just visually seeing someone right next to me. Like, I haven't had a. Had a physical office for 10 years, but before that, you know, I've worked virtually for 10 years, but I always had an actual office. And so that would be a very big shift to your point of, like, how much do you value x vs y? For me to not just have to go to an office, but then to physically just be at a cubicle, not even have my own space. Like, that would be another very big change. And I think, at least for the way my brain is wired, it would not be a productive change.
- [34:50]
A
Yeah. And so I think this brings us very naturally to this question of, like, how can you talk to your manager about what you need to, like, return to the office effectively? And I think that there are other than, like, you know, a space to do your work and all the tools that you need to do your work being available and toilet paper and toilet paper all being available to you at the office. Like, I think once we get beyond that, it really does boil down to, especially if, you know, if you're starting from scratch, like, why not build good hygiene? Well, why not build good processes around, like, the hygiene still is more important now than ever that we've returned to the office, but why not build good processes for how you deal with things like quiet, focused work versus, like, I can be interrupted type type of work? How do you create? How do you, like, even in a cubicle farm, even in a hot desk scenario, I could imagine there being like, sections in the hot desk world where you say, like, hey, if you really need to, like, be heads down and focused, like, this whole row is like, you know, or two rows.
- [36:09]
B
This is the library, Correct.
- [36:11]
A
No interruptions. Like, don't come and talk to somebody over there. Like, if you want to have a conversation with them, like, ping them on Slack and ask them to meet you in the, you know, kitchenette or what, whatever, to talk. And then I can imagine you have another one which is like, hey, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm working, but, you know, able to be interrupted or something like that. And then maybe you have like a more social area where there's, like, collaboration going on. Like, there could be active conversations or collaboration going on. Things like, things like that. And I do, like, none of these things are going to Be ideal. There's always going to be trade offs, but it does seem like if you're going to buy, you know, you're going to make the effort to, like, get everybody to commute into the office again. At the very least, you could try to do the best with what you have. And so thinking about that, and I think for each person, like, if I was there, if I was a manager in this situation, I like, the question I would be asking each of my direct reports is like, how can we make the most of this return to office? Like, how can we make this the best experience that it could possibly be? I understand that there's going to be downsides and there's going to be drawbacks, but the focus should really be on finding, generating ideas for how to make it as good of an experience as possible. And so if, you know, if you're like brandy, and you're like, hey, like, I need noise canceling headphones. And like, ideally I need a desk that faces away, like, you know, that faces a wall or away from where everybody's walking. So I'm not, like, constantly seeing people, you know, walk by. Like, I ask for those things now. It's probably a little bit easier to get them while everything's up in the air than it is to, like, wait till everything is settled and then request a change.
- [38:04]
B
Great tips. I'm wondering, Jason, do you want to get into our tips?
- [38:09]
A
Sure. Let's do some tips.
- [38:12]
B
So now it's time for our radical candor checklist. And these are tips to start putting radical candor into practice right away. Tip number one, if you are implementing a return to office decision or you've got the decision wherever you are in the process, start by soliciting feedback. And so if somebody gives you honest feedback about why they're hesitant to return to the office, acknowledge it. Take visible steps to address their concerns. As Jason was just sharing, if you already have a decision that you can change, look at what might be, some of the things that you could do to make the return to office as successful for each of your direct reports and the folks working with you.
- [38:56]
A
Tip number two, if you're being asked to return to the office and you're not sure that you're going to like it, take this as an opportunity. You know, make. Make an evaluation for yourself. Decide if, is it, is it completely unmanageable to try return to the office? And if so, then, you know, it might be time to quit and start hunting for another job. But if you can, if you can grind it out for a little while, you. One of two things could happen. One, you give yourself some time to look for another job. And two, maybe you like it more than you thought that you would, and at least you've given it an opportunity. And I'm thinking about your friend Amy and just hoping that, you know, they. They find some way to continue working at this great job that they have, even though the context has changed.
- [39:45]
B
Yeah. Building on that, I think there's something about, in a time of change, how can we really. Maybe it's not about throwing out the baby with the bath water, it's what are the really good parts? What can I keep? At the same time that we feel like we are looking for other opportunities and acknowledging that we might be in a time where we've been really lucky to have that great job or that perfect job, hitting all of our needs, and maybe what are we willing to let go of? And what's a must have? And then finally, tip number three, if you are someone who is implementing the return to office, it's really important to gauge how people are responding and be aware that if people are not showing up to the office or not being as productive, that it might be landing differently for different people. And so if you're finding distress or resistance, that is valuable information. And again, part of it is soliciting feedback and part of it is making changes where you actually can make changes. And I'm curious, Jason, just your example with Brandy about the headphones, like, what can a manager who might not be able to change the actual policy, what are some other examples of things they might be able to do to adjust accordingly?
- [41:02]
A
Yeah. So let's call it tip number four, which is if you're implementing, meaning it's not your decision, but you're implementing a return to the office policy or approach, I think it's going to be really, really helpful to use this moment to establish or re. Establish your. The norms of how you work together. You could use my example of like, you know, if you have a hot desk set up, you know, make sure it's clear like some of them are. If people are sitting at them, they're interruptible. And if they're. If they're sitting at another set, maybe they can't be interrupted at the moment. You don't have to go back to exactly the way things were before. I think the tendency is to, like, repeat what we were doing before. But this is actually an opportunity to establish a new set of norms. And so whether it's about meeting, etiquette, shared spaces, communication, expectations. Use this as a moment to create fresh norms that will work better for the people who have to work together in the office.
- [42:02]
B
Summarizing again, just going Back to that McKinsey piece, Jason, what you were saying. Brian Hancock from McKinsey noted that what they found was that it doesn't really matter where you ask somebody to be. What matters is what you do with them once they're there. And that requires intentionality. And so I think that's just building on being intentional. How does the space that we're setting up reinforce our values, our culture, and be willing to try something new? So with that, head on over to radicalcandor.com podcast for the show Notes as we like to say, praise in public and criticize in private. So if you like what you hear, please do rate and review us wherever you're listening and if you've got feedback, we welcome it. Please do send it email podcast radicalcander.com that's podcast@radicalcandor.com Bye for now.
- [42:56]
A
Take care.
- [42:57]
B
The Radical Candor podcast is based on the book Radical Be a Kick Ass Boss Without Losing youg Humanity by Kim Scott. Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal with script editing by me, Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoph and is hosted by me, still Amy Sandler. Nick Karisimi is our audio engineer. The Radical Candor podcast theme music was composed by Cliff Goldmacher. Follow us on LinkedIn Radical Candor the company and visit us@radicalcander.com for a limited.
- [43:34]
A
Time at McDonald's, get a Big Mac Extra Value meal for $8. That means two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun and medium fries and a drink. We may need to change that jingle. Prices and participation may vary.