Scaling Smart: Leading Effectively When You Have 50+ Direct Reports 7 | 10

Summary

Radical Candor Podcast
Episode: Scaling Smart: Leading Effectively When You Have 50+ Direct Reports (7 | 10)
Hosts: Kim Scott, Amy Sandler (Jason Rosoff not present)
Date: March 5, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the challenges and strategies of leading effectively when you’re responsible for a very large number of direct reports—specifically in environments like manufacturing, where direct reports can easily number 30, 40, or even 50. Kim Scott and Amy Sandler tackle a listener’s question about how to maintain meaningful connections, hold effective one-on-ones, and build a culture of Radical Candor when traditional relationship-building isn’t scalable. The conversation centers on practical tools, prioritizing culture over individual relationships, systems for amplifying employee voices, and how technology (and old-fashioned management by walking around) can support leaders at scale.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Relationships vs. Culture: What Scales?

• Kim Scott reiterates: “Relationships don’t scale, but culture does.” (02:27)
  • In large teams, it’s impossible to have deep, personal relationships with every direct report.
  • “You cannot have 50 real deep meaningful relationships, you just can’t. Human beings do not scale.” (02:27)
• The job of a leader, then, is to create systems and a culture where every team member feels heard and empowered—even if not by the manager directly.

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2. The Ideas Team: A Scalable Solution for Feedback

• Listener Question: How to do one-on-ones in a manufacturing environment with 30-50 direct reports and limited space/privacy? (01:33)

• Kim’s Recommendation: Form an “ideas team”—an internal group that collects and prioritizes suggestions, complaints, and feedback from everyone. (04:08)

  • This team distills input for the manager, preventing burnout and bottlenecks.
  • “They can ask for, you know, three or four actions for the manager to take each week, but not 30 or 50.” (04:10)

• What goes to the ideas team versus personal concerns?

  • “Anything that's frustrating you, from furniture to strategy, I would say. But not your team members. You should be radically candid with your team members.” (05:29)
  • Notable Quote: “The most scalable thing is to create a culture in which if you have a problem with someone, you go talk to that person directly.” (05:29)

• Technological Tools: Kim mentions Joyous, a platform for collecting and routing workplace ideas, but stresses that low-tech solutions—a shared document, suggestion box, or voting board—work, too. (06:30, 08:29)

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3. Why Listening Matters (and How to Scale It)

• The core purpose of one-on-ones is “to listen to people and to help them clarify their ideas. Because new ideas are fragile and so easily trampled.” (07:54)
• With too many direct reports, you can’t listen to everyone directly. Instead, build “systems where people are doing that for each other.” (07:54)
• Emphasizes that most business innovations and improvements come from listening to those closest to the work:
  • Story: In a telecom company, repeated feedback (via Joyous) about needing a specific wrench in every work van led to greater efficiency and happier employees. (09:29–10:56)

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4. Management by Walking Around

• One substitute for one-on-ones is “management by walking around.”

  • Set aside time—an hour a week or day—to walk the shop floor and have spontaneous, unscripted conversations. (11:08)
  • Cultural Impact: Personal anecdotes show that leaders “moving the couches” can set lasting cultural norms, even years after leaving a company.
  • Kim’s Reflection: “You can have a big cultural impact just by walking around, noticing things and fixing them yourself. Like, you’re not above any job...” (13:33)

• Overcoming Skepticism:

  • Both hosts discuss that staff may initially mistrust a manager’s sudden interest:
    • “The first time you do this, people might be nervous and the only way out is through.” (15:44)
    • Be patient; over time, approachability and consistency build trust.

• For managers uncomfortable with small talk:

  • Focus on genuine curiosity and learning something new from team members.
  • “Be genuinely curious...I’m going to learn something new. I’m going to make life a little better today.” (18:29)

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5. Streamlining One-on-Ones at Scale

• If possible, block out three 15-minute slots per day for quick, focused one-on-ones, rotating through the roster.

  • “You just, you got to have low expectations of how much you can say, yeah, 15 minutes...you’re not going to build this deep relationship.” (20:05)

• Structure for a 15-minute One-on-One:

  • 12 minutes: Focus on the direct report’s agenda—ask, “What’s on your mind?” Give three minutes of silence if they don’t have something. (21:38)
  • Encourage them to take ownership of problems—“Your job is to help them figure out how to get it fixed…not fix it yourself.” (23:47–24:03)
  • 3 minutes: Solicit feedback for yourself, e.g., “What can I do or stop doing?” (41:20)

• Empowerment vs. Burnout:

  • Don’t absorb everyone’s action items:
    • “If you try to fix, address every complaint... you’re going to be, you’re gonna start canceling those one on ones, I can promise you.” (23:47)
    • “There’s a sort of arrogance to say, ah, I can fix every problem everybody brings me.” (28:11)

• Active Listening:

  • Full attention is more valuable than duration: “I would so much rather have...five minutes of someone’s full and present attention than an hour meeting where they’re not at all paying attention.” (29:44)

  • Amy and Kim demo a two-minute focus listening exercise, emphasizing staying fully present and resisting the urge to problem-solve. (31:37–39:34)

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6. When Possible, Create a Management Structure

• If policy allows, advocate for a management structure (more “layers”) to ensure managers aren't overextended and people are adequately supported.
  • Evidence shows managers with over five direct reports struggle to meet best practice standards. (41:28)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Happiness and saving money tend to go hand in hand. And even more than that, happiness and innovation go hand in hand.” – Kim Scott (10:56)
• “If you hate small talk, I hate small talk too...Remember that you have a purpose.” – Kim Scott (18:29)
• “The first job in the one on one is to listen...sometimes a good follow up question is do you want me to listen or do you want me to try to help you?” – Kim Scott (27:39–28:10)
• “If you try to fix every problem everybody brings you...it does. It's a sort of arrogance to say, ah, I can fix every problem.” – Kim Scott (28:11)
• “I would so much rather have...five minutes of someone’s full and present attention than an hour meeting where they’re not at all paying attention to me because now we've just wasted an hour and I feel unimportant.” – Amy Sandler (29:44)

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Key Segments & Timestamps

• 01:33 — Listener Question: How do you scale one-on-ones with 30–50 direct reports?
• 04:08 — Kim introduces the concept of an “ideas team.”
• 05:29 — What should/shouldn’t go to the ideas team? Distinguishing process complaints from interpersonal ones.
• 08:29 — Technology and low-tech options to support idea-sharing.
• 10:56 — Story of how worker feedback about a missing tool led to operational improvements.
• 11:08–15:44 — Management by walking around; building trust during new practices.
• 18:29 — How to approach walk-arounds if you dislike small talk.
• 20:05 — Suggested approach: short, rotating one-on-ones (“emotional whiplash” warning).
• 21:38 — The one-on-one formula: 12 minutes for the direct report’s agenda, 3 minutes for soliciting feedback.
• 23:47 — Empowering employees to solve their own problems.
• 27:39 — The importance of resisting the urge to solve everything.
• 29:44 — The power of focused, undivided attention.
• 31:37–39:34 — Live demo: Two-minute listening exercise and reflection.
• 41:28 — The case for adding a management structure.
• 42:35–44:48 — Checklist summary: key practical tips.

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Radical Candor Checklist: Actionable Tips (42:35)

1. Implement an Ideas Team
   • Create a process (digital or physical) for collecting and prioritizing suggestions from all staff.
   • Ensure the team communicates why some ideas are pursued and others are not.
2. Walk the Floor Regularly
   • Use informal time in the workspace to connect, build trust, and spot issues.
   • Demonstrate genuine curiosity and care.
3. Be Fully Present in One-on-Ones
   • Even if brief or in nontraditional spaces, maintain focus and show respect for your direct report’s time.
4. Push for Smarter Structures
   • If possible, advocate for fewer direct reports per manager by adding (even temporary) team leads or supervisors.

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Tone & Takeaways

The episode is filled with candor, empathy, and practical wisdom. Kim and Amy blend frankness (“you cannot manage 50 people in the way I recommend...”) with encouragement, making it clear that while relationships may not scale, good systems and a strong culture can go a long way. They champion listening, intentional presence, and empowering teams to own solutions, all while acknowledging the real-world messiness of leadership at scale.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Hello everybody. Welcome to the Radical Candor Podcast. I'm Kim Scott.

[A]

I'm Amy Sandler. And today we're talking about something that Kim, you often talk about, which is how relationships don't scale, but culture does. First of all, before I go any further, do you still agree with that? This idea that you can't scale your relationships, but you do that through culture?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, you're not scaling your relationships through culture, but culture does scale and relationships don't scale. Yes, I still agree with that.

[A]

Okay, cool. So we have a question from a listener about what can you do when you just can't clone yourself? And by the way, we may be able to do that down the road. That's a different podcast. This question from our listener, they write, quote, I frequently work with manufacturing teams where managers often have 30 to 50 direct reports on the shop floor. What is your recommendation for how to do effective one on one meetings in this environment where there's often not an office or place to talk privately? Having great one on ones is easier to do when you've got three to five direct reports and work in an office environment. But I'm curious as to practical tips and tools you recommend in a manufacturing environment with a large number of direct reports and and also with a large number of direct reports in general. Thank you.

[B]

I love this question. It is so important because a lot of people do have way more direct reports than it's possible to have. Real. I mean, you cannot have 50 real deep meaningful relationships, you just can't. There's not. But human beings do not scale, which is why relationships don't scale. And so what can we do? What, what can a person do who has this many direct reports? I think that the important thing in, in this kind of situation is to create an environment in which people know that they have a way to be heard. They know they have a way to take, to fill in complaints and to file complaints in a way that, that, that they can be heard. And with that many direct reports, if you took questions and criticism, solicited criticism from all 50 people, if you also just asked for suggestions from 50 people, you'd burn out almost instantly. In Radical Candor. I talk about this moment where pretty soon I was, I was soliciting great ideas from the team and pretty soon I didn't want to hear any more great ideas because every great idea came with action items for me. And I couldn't do, I couldn't take all those action items. You know, I was just one person. And so one of the things that I would recommend is to create sort of like an ideas team with people.

[A]

Where.

[B]

Everyone can submit suggestions, complaints, things are broken, and this team of people will figure out which ones are going to have the most impact, which ones are the most important ones to fix. And they can suggest to the manager, they can ask for, you know, three or four actions for the manager to take each week, but not 30 or 50. And that way the team feels like they're a little bit, you're giving the team a way to sort of self manage in this case since you really cannot manage 50 people in the way that I recommend in Radical Candor. So I know that's not an exact answer to the one on one, but that's one suggestion in terms of one on ones with 30 to 50 direct reports.

[A]

And Kim, before we go on to that, I'm really curious with your ideas team and people can submit complaints, things are broken, et cetera, how do you think about like is, is the ideas team, is that more about processes or specific work product rather than oh, I'm frustrated by colleague a said this in a, in a meeting or sort of more interpersonal stuff like where would you put that kind of a complaint?

[B]

So if you're, if you have a frustration with a team member, this is where radical canner becomes really important. The most scalable thing is to create a culture in which if you have a problem with someone, you go talk to that person directly. And nine times out of ten you could probably sort it out. And if you can't sort it out, then you go together to the manager. And so what, the ideas team is more ideas about the way we're working together. Anything that's frustrating you, from furniture to strategy, I would say. But not your team members. You should be radically candid with your team members. By the way, I'm not selling, I have no financial arrangement with this company. But there's a company called Joyous and they have built a system that will allow for. That will create an ideas team for you and identify the right person to, to create fixes for the great ideas that come out of your team.

[A]

Cool. Yeah. And I think that is one of the ways that technology can support that. And just acknowledging it could be very helpful just to speak to the manager, somebody who's asking the question, whether it's our listener or someone else, that what you're saying is on the ideas team, I think being really clear that we're talking about processes or work product and that we really do encourage you to build that culture of radical candor so they don't think that's just a place to drop personal frustrations to be very clear about.

[B]

Well, they could be personal frustrations, but not personal frustrations with other people.

[A]

Frustrations about actual persons.

[B]

Yes, yes, yes, exactly.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

So, all right, so you talked about the ideas team and, and by the.

[B]

By the way, the reason why I started with the ideas team is that the goal, one of the most important goals of a one on one meeting is to listen to each of your direct reports. And you really cannot listen to 30 to 50 people every week. It's not possible. But the ideas team creates kind of a culture of listening so that people have a way to talk to each other about some of the things that you might be talking to them about. If you only had three to five instead of ten times that many direct reports. Does that make sense?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So that's number one. Like so. So taking a step back to thinking about one on one meetings, the purpose of a one on one meeting is to listen to people and to help them clarify their ideas. Because new ideas are fragile and so easily trampled. So you want to create systems where people are doing that for each other and as an alternative to a regularly scheduled one on one.

[A]

And so just. Yeah. So kind of building that a tool like a Joyous or the Ideas team can kind of scale that listening for you because you can only do so much intentional one on one listening.

[B]

Yeah. So when I started the ideas team, it was really Just a shared document. So I don't know in a manufacturing environment, if people have their phones with them and can, can access shared documents, you know, if that doesn't work, it could be a big, a big piece of paper where people. Or a physical box where people drop ideas in if a shared document doesn't work. The nice thing about a shared document is that people can upvote or downvote. So if you don't have a shared document, you could have like a board where people can put ideas and then they can put check marks next to the ideas they like or something like that. So that's, number one, is you want to create this culture of listening so that people, even though you as their manager, can't hear every single person, every single idea, there's a way for people to get their ideas heard because. And the reason why this is important is a. Because you care about people and it's emotionally important for them to be heard. But it's also important for business reasons because the best ideas are going to come from each of the people on the shop floor. Every single person on that shop floor has a great idea for, for ways to work that are going to either improve efficiency or tasks that are getting done that could just. That you could stop doing, which would improve efficiency or ways to work that are more fun, where people would enjoy their job more if this irritant or that irritant were removed. This is not a shop floor kind of thing. But one of the stories from Joyous that I most like is a big telecommunications company was using Joyous. And there were people who worked for this telecommunications company that had to go out and repair physical locks, lines in vans. And there was a particular wrench that was needed, like, you know, 20% of the time that. And the wrench was not kept in all the vans. And so when the workers needed that wrench, they had to drive all the way back to HQ and then go.

[A]

Back and threw a real wrench in things.

[B]

Yeah, through a monkey wrench. It was, it, it, it made things way less efficient, way more expensive, and it was irritating. Not only was it more expensive for the company, it was sort of boring and irritating for the person who was supposed to fix the line. And this complaint came up a lot in the Joya system. And so they put the wrench in the van and everybody was happier. And it saved the company a lot of money. So happiness and saving money tend to go, tend to go hand in hand. And even more than that, happiness and innovation go hand in hand. And so when people are not burnt out or frustrated by their working environment, they tend to not only quit doing inefficient things, they have great ideas for things that'll actually make money. So it's good on cost savings, good on innovation too. So that's number one is try to figure out a way for the team to talk to each other, to sort of self manage. And an ideas team is one idea. However, you do still want to have a relationship with these 30 to 50 people. And so there are a couple of specific things that I recommend. One typical solution to this problem is somebody might try to have office hours in lieu of one on ones. And that's a good instinct. But the problem with office hours in my experience is that if you offer office hours to 30 to 50 people, the same three cranks are going to come see you every single week. Or maybe they're not cranks, but whatever. The same three people, maybe they're wonderful people, but you want to hear from everyone. So what I recommend instead of doing that is one, to book an hour a week or maybe even an hour a day depending, to just walk around. And this is an old idea, this is not my idea. Management by walking around. I think Abraham Lincoln used to do that. So lots of, lots of great leaders have managed by walking around. And the idea is that you want to walk around and you notice someone who you haven't talked to before and you stop and you just ask them, how's it going? You know, what's going on? What you know, is there something I could do or stop doing that would make your day better? So, so you have these conversations with people or you notice things that are broken. Like at one point when I was working at Google, I was, I, we had had some sort of, I don't know, party and, and everybody had gone back to work. And I came out of my office and I noticed there was a couch in the wrong place. And so I started pushing the couch back to the right place where it was supposed to go. And this one guy on the team came up and he was just making a joke. I still am friends with this guy. I like this guy. But he was like, oh, ha ha, Kim, you got a new job. And it really made me stop in my tracks. And I'm like, you don't want to work at a company where everybody has these narrow job descriptions. I don't want to work at a company where everybody has these narrow job descriptions. Like if you see something messed up, you fix it. That's, you know, and so then there became this, like, theme on AdSense, we move the couches. And I was talking to someone who's still at Google, still works on that team, and they said, they still say that. They still say. And I left Google in 2000 2010, I think a long time ago now. So you can have a big cultural impact just by walking around, noticing things and fixing them yourself. Like, you're not above any job that has a big impact.

[A]

Yeah. It's such a great story. And I'm curious, Kim. I'm just putting myself in the shoes of somebody whose manager hasn't been doing this. And now all of a sudden they're walking and they're coming over to me and they're like, how's it going? And I'm just, I'm, I'm, I'm trying to think the best, but knowing that my, my tendency might be like, wait, what did I do wrong? Why are they, why are they starting this new thing? So how might a manager want to tee this up to assuage any concerns?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think the key thing is when you're walking around, you're never walking around to punish anyone. So you're not going to. The first time you do this, people might be nervous and the only way out is through. It's going to be. It might feel uncomfortable and there's no way you can make it comfortable from the outset. You have to prove over time that you're not walking around to punish people, you're walking around to help them. You want them to be excited to see you coming, that you don't want them to feel a sense of dread at your coming. And I think you raise a really good point, which is they're likely to feel a sense of dread.

[A]

Yeah. Especially if it's something new. And it's sort of. And I think that's why your story is so great, because not only are you seeing you do the great work, but again, it's like practicing radical candor, starting by asking for feedback. But it's not just a one off. It has to be an ongoing practice and rewarding the candor or else people are going to think that they're just waiting for the other shoe to drop.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, people need to realize that when you're walking around, things are getting better because you're walking around.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Getting worse. And I think the other thing, excuse me, that's important to realize. You're the one who's sick, but I'm the one who's coughing.

[A]

So I think you're mirroring me like you're the bridge that you really like.

[B]

Yes, exactly. Exactly. So I think it's really important to realize that because if you're the manager, you have a little bit of power in the situation that you are likely to elicit fear when you walk around. So it is your job to become approachable and to make people realize. The reason you're walking around is you really care about everybody. You really care about this team, and you want to make things better, not worse.

[A]

I think it's such a great note. I'm glad that you mentioned it. And I'm curious, especially if somebody was going to do this. You had recommended once a week or even more, if possible. Do you have a recommendation? For some people, this might come really naturally, the checking in and how's it going and what can I do for you? But for people that feel maybe less comfortable with that kind of small talk, do you have any tips? I mean, you talked about having that go to question, but any other. Just conversation starters that you find helpful for folks that might feel a little nervous about what to say?

[B]

Yeah, I totally. First of all, if you hate small talk, I hate small talk, too. Yeah, I feel you. It feels like a total waste of time. Remember that the. You have a purpose, you have a reason for going around. And the reason for going around is because you're going to learn important things about what is really happening. You're going to. You're going. So. So be genuinely curious. All those people that are working are making an important contribution to the work, to getting things done. And so you want to make sure that you go out there like, oh, I'm going to learn something new. And even if you are shy, you probably like the idea of learning something new. I'm going to make life a little better today. Like, you're not going to solve everything and people are still going to be unhappy, but who doesn't want to make life a little better today? So those are. Those are the kinds of. Because if, look, if I could, I wouldn't even leave my house. I would sit in my garage all day, every day. There's value in getting out there.

[A]

Yeah. And you said two really important things, genuine and curiosity. And I think people can totally sense if it's genuine, even if you don't say it just the right way. And I think with curiosity, asking questions and really try, like you said, like, what can I learn? What can I learn from. From you? And I think the genuineness is. Is huge. So.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And, and so I can't do the math this fast, but the, the last thing I will recommend is say you have. Well, say you have 45 people. You, you, you want to think about. I would like to do once a day three 15 minute one on ones and try to kind of have them maybe spread out throughout the day because each person is going to have such a different energy. Like one person you're going to need to console and the next person you're going to need to consolidate with. And if you have one on one meetings with different people back to back, you wind up with emotional whiplash in my experience. So I would try to reserve three 15 minute slots a day to have one on ones with people and, and cycle through the team in some predictable way. This is kind of a scheduling hassle, but if you can swing it, I think that would be really helpful. So you do get a little bit of one on one time, but you just, you got to have low expectations of how much you can say, yeah, 15 minutes. How much you're going to get to, you're not going to build this deep relationship with someone.

[A]

What do you, given that and that there's, you know, you talk a lot in one on ones about how you know it's in service of the direct reports agenda. You're there to clear obstacles, you're there to solicit feedback. If they could only do one thing in that 15 minutes, what is the top priority?

[B]

I think the top priority here's, well, I'm going to do two. I'm not going to answer your question. Okay, I'm going to do two things. I would spend sort of 12 minutes. So the vast majority of that 15 minutes I would, I would spend, you know, what's on your mind. Like anything's fair game from furniture to strategy. I would ask people to come with an agenda. If they come in and they say I don't really have anything to talk to you about, say, well, why don't we take three minutes of silence and you think, think about it. It's okay that you didn't prepare. Like don't get mad at them, but don't let them off the hook either and it'll be an uncomfortable, I promise you if you say we're gonna have, I'm gonna give you three minutes to think about it that that person will think. In fact, somebody I coached just did this and he was like, wow, that really worked. It was, people would come into his one on one and they'd say I don't have anything. And he would, he Would say, okay, well you can have the time back. And I said, just give them a few minutes. And he said, I'm learning all kinds of stuff. So really let people know that they should come prepared with an agenda and listen to that agenda, whatever it is, try to respond. Your goal here is to listen to people, to help them clarify their thinking and then to help them figure out what to do next. It's really important. In that 12 minutes, somebody's going to come in and they're going to say, this machine is broken. Why haven't you fixed it? Don't accept that task. It's not your job to fix it. It's your job to help them figure out how to get it fixed. Right. Because if you try to, everybody's going to have a complaint when they come in. And if you try to fix, address every complaint. And you're having three one on ones a day. You're going to, you're going to be, you're gonna start canceling those one on ones, I can promise you. So don't take on everyone's problems.

[A]

That is so interesting. Okay, so you're saying I'm complaining because the machine I'm working on is broken.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so you want me to figure out how I'm gonna get it fixed rather than dumping it into your lap. Right. I mean, you're gonna help me though. You're gonna help me with it, but you want me to take some ownership of the broken machine.

[B]

Yes. Because. Because you, you the manager. A manager of 50 people cannot fix everything that's broken. And there's a lot. With 50 people, there's going to be a lot broken and a whole. There's going to be a lot of shit that is suboptimal and, and it's tempting to deal with that by not knowing about it, but that's really not productive. That's denial.

[A]

So how do you find that balance? How do you know when you have to jump in and when you're really wanting the direct report? I mean, is it really just a matter of being very clear about sort of who's ultimately responsible for what?

[B]

I mean, it helps to be, but you're never going to be able to predict all the things that are. So there's no amount you can't clarify your way out of this? I don't think there's no amount of clarity of roles that will. Because something's going to break that's in between two people. And so your job as the boss where there's all this shit is going is breaking and is suboptimal and everything could be better. And sometimes things are really disastrously bad and your job is to know about it without freaking out. That's your job. And to figure out you can't fix everything but to figure out productive ways for people to move in the direction of a solution to most of these problems. I mean there are things that it's truly your job to fix. I mean if somebody comes and tells you you devastated so and so on the team was something you said like that's your job to fix that. Right. But, but, but knowing that you know there is, you know there's, let's say that go back to the broken machine. There's probably a machine shop like did you talk to so and so and ah, they don't have any time to fix it. Well, maybe send it to the ideas team. Like help the team learn and make yourself vulnerable. Like I can't fix everything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm one person and so my job is to help you find a solution. My job is not to fix it. And just remember that Kim, that is so good.

[A]

I mean there's a couple things. One is about not freaking out with every problem but also empowering the team. And I just, I feel like this, this wisdom is born from some experience. So do you have, do you have any story and it may be in the book, but just that you may have tried to fix too many problems?

[B]

Oh my gosh. I mean I, I always, I always want to fix everybody's problem. Like one of the things that has been hardest for me to learn at work, but also in my marriage and as a parent is somebody comes to you with a big problem machine, a broken machine and you're like my husband now will say to me, I do not want you to fix this problem. I just want you to listen. I'm like, oh yeah. And sometimes when I jump into solutions mode, he's like, do you hear how arrogant you sound? Do you think I haven't thought of that? I'm like, oh yeah, oh yeah. Or my kids are like, you have no idea what life is like in, in high school now. You know, And I'm like, do you want to hear what it was like for me? No, I do not. So, so I think a lot of this is realizing your first job in the one on one is to listen. And, and then sometimes a good follow up question is do you want me, you know, do you want me to listen or do you want me to try to help you?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, if you're not if you're not sure. But your first job is to listen and to. And to like just express some compassion for what that do not jump into fix it mode. It's. It's not, it's not good for the other person. It's not good for your relationship. And it, what you can't fix all those problems. It's like it does. It's a sort of arrogance to say, ah, I can fix every problem everybody brings me.

[A]

Yeah. And it's just gonna lead to burnout and then folks not feeling as empowered.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[A]

But it takes some real self discipline and self awareness.

[B]

It's hard. It's like listening. It's really interesting. I read this fascinating book over the weekend about listening. It's a book about music streaming. And the author of the book is made a really good point. It's called Mood Machine, if anybody's interested. But made a really good point that music. There's a big difference between doing nothing and listen, not doing nothing, between listening to music and truly listening to music and not multitasking, not listening to music while you're driving or doing the dishes or you know, having dinner, but like going to listen to music. It's a very active thing and background music. And so you want to make sure when you're, when you are having these 15 minute one on ones like that you are fully listening to this person. I know Waymi, you have a lot of words of wisdom on active listening and on mindful listening.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, just as you were saying that that's what was coming to mind was I would so much rather have not even 15 minutes, 5 minutes of someone's full and present attention than an hour meeting where they're not at all paying attention to me because now we've just wasted an hour and I feel unimportant. And so just being really present. And so I think, you know, from what you're saying in the book, it's very interesting with music because I think there's also a sense of like full body listening, like getting signals not just from the cognition of like what is the content of what's being said, but also where is it landing in your body, what, what emotions are underneath there. And the exercise that we'll often do in workshops, the focus listening that you're talking about is where, you know, you might talk for two minutes about a certain prompt and we like to leave the prompts, give you some examples, but have you could talk about, you know, what's surprising to you about your work or what's hard for you about Radical Candor, but you really have the permission to go anywhere because I am not going to interrupt you like. And you know that I'm not going to interrupt you because my only job is to be present with you. And what's fascinating when we do that is that there's this moment when people finish their first thought, like, oh, well, what's hard for me about radical Candor is, you know, I don't want to hurt people's feelings or whatever. And then there's this silence. And if you have the discipline to sit in that silence, that discomfort that you talk so often about, Kim, people will often go deeper into something that really matters. And so that's. And that's where actually, like, the full body listening, because then it actually drops from, like a cognitive connection into more of an emotional resonance with the other person. And I suspect even with the music, that's. What's happening is it's speaking to all the different parts of your body.

[B]

So maybe we should do the exercise. But before we jump in, if you're comfortable. So I would love to try. Cause very hard for me, you're a very good, active listener. We'll see if I can do it. So. So maybe I'll listen to you, but I'll tell you a story about getting it wrong. So I was working with someone, and this person was having every sort of February, had some seasonal affective disorder, and was talking to me about this. And this is what not to do. I was like, oh, I've got this great place in Hawaii. You should just go there and it'll solve. And this guy was so mad at me, you know, it was like, so don't do that. Like, that's an example of trying to jump into solution mode when I just should have listened.

[A]

Yeah. And, you know, it's. It's human nature to. And we talked about me not feeling well, so here's my cough. It's human nature. You know, we. We make connections from our own experience, but that's really much more about our own agenda than about the other person. But you can give yourself a break. That. That tends to be how we're wired. Okay, so you want me to talk for two minutes on the spot and see if you'll listen?

[B]

Yeah. About anything that's on your mind.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And this, by the way, the listener can do in every. In every one on one. Like, this is a great way to spend two minutes of a one on one, whether it's only a 15 minute one on one. Or an hour long one on one.

[A]

So you know that feeling when you're doom scrolling and suddenly it is an hour later and you feel even worse. I have been there, but lately I've been swapping that time for something way more energizing. Masterclass these are not your average online classes. This is Robin Roberts teaching effective and authentic communication. Chris Voss teaching you how to win any negotiation. And our very own Kim Scott teaching you how to use radical Candor to have those tough conversations you've been putting off. Whether I am in between meetings or just swinging a string toy for my cat, I pop into the app. I soak up real insights that I can apply immediately. And I'm not alone. 83% of members have used what they learned to improve their lives. With plans starting at just $10 a month billed annually and over 200 classes to choose from, Masterclass is a no brainer. So get an additional 15% off any annual membership [e-mail] radical. That's MasterCL. For an additional 15% off. Go learn something that'll change your day and maybe your life. Starting a business can seem like a daunting task unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to.

[B]

Start and grow your business.

[A]

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[B]

Yeah, listening in public is a different.

[A]

Thing than talking in public. But the point here is, you know, so often and especially with radical candor in the workplace, we're so intentional about what we're saying and how we're saying it and how is it going to land for the other person. And in this exercise, you want to give the speaker just to throw that all out and just show up. However, for, for the two minutes. So we'll, we'll try this as an experiment. Kim, do you have any prompts for me that you want to throw at me.

[B]

I would love to hear about whatever's on your mind.

[A]

Okay. Whatever's on my mind. Well, what's on my mind is what Kim referenced, which is that I have not been feeling well. Today is Monday, and overnight Friday into Saturday, I was seized by what I believe is the neurovirus. And I've never. Well, I have not felt that sick in probably decades, to the point that I was not even sure I could text people to be like, hey, if you don't hear from me, I can't really get to any liquids, and I know I need water, but it seems so hard and so far away, and I'm kind of laughing about it now. But there's such a vulnerability when you are really, really sick, and it's very humbling. And I live alone. And so it just. There was. There's just that moment when you just feel really, really sick and you feel alone. And I just. I am grateful right now to have enough energy to be having this conversation. And it was not that long ago that I. That I felt that way. And I haven't felt that way in so long. So it's just a really interesting touch point. And then just all the logistics of, okay, well, I've got work on Monday, and I'm doing a TED Talk coming up soon. And all of those things that we think about kind of ran through my mind.

[B]

I'm so sorry that you were that sick. That is awful. That is really awful. How long? Just now. I'm going to break.

[A]

Okay, now we've. How was it to listen?

[B]

It was. You know, it was really hard. There were two moments when I really wanted to jump in and tell you my story about feelings. Super sick.

[A]

What. What were they?

[B]

And I didn't do it, so. But I'll tell you mine in a second. But. But first, I want to ask a question. One of the things that I was aware of is that I was nodding and saying, I feel like total silence wouldn't have been right. Like, for you to say you felt that sick and for me not to say I'm really sorry in the moment was hard. Yeah. Should I have just said I'm really sorry?

[A]

No. Well, it's a great note. And also, like, in the exercise, we'll kind of acknowledge, like, at the moment, like, you can nod your head or, you know, just sort of be with the person, but there's. We've set the ground rules, so there's not an expectation of you jumping in.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And for whatever it's worth, also, like, we're Doing this, I'm looking into a camera and also just I have some vision challenges, so it's actually easier for me to like, not look at you in the camera. I'm just sort of looking out into the great beyond to all the listeners who now know about the drama of the last weekend. And so that's also something very interesting about doing this virtually versus when you're doing this in person and you actually are like looking in their eyes and sort of looking away. So just. And by the way, some people really like that. They like the disambiguation, if that's the right use of that, like through the media, because they feel like it actually forces them to be more present. So I think, again, like anything, some things are going to land differently for different people. But no, I totally felt you were there with me, so I did not need the words.

[B]

Good. Okay. Thank you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I really encourage people to practice this in their one on one, to really try to spend a couple of minutes and every one on one just listening and truly not saying anything. And try even, you know, not to be too theatrical with your facial expressions. Like, try to remain neutral and open. You know, it's hard. It's surprisingly hard.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I will say, since we're now, since I'm allowed to talk and I can't even let out of candor jail, that it is really hard. I remember one time when I was living in New York, I was living alone and I got the. I got a terrible flu. I was supposed to be gone out of town. So, like, nobody, even everybody I knew thought I was out of town and I got. I don't know what kind of flu, but I similar kind of thing. And I had a dog and I was in a fourth floor walk up, so, like, I had to walk. I had to like get down the stairs and I got down to the bottom of the stairs and it was super hot. It was like a heat wave. And the door had swollen shut and I was not strong enough to open. I had to bang on the door and have some stranger walk by, like, wrench. It was awful. So for all the folks out there who are getting norovirus or all these other viruses that are going around and are alone, I feel, I feel for you. It's really hard.

[A]

We are with you and it's actually really nice to know that we can, we can get through it as well.

[B]

Yes, yes. But call for help. Yeah, do call. We do have nine. One, one.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

No, if you need it, use it.

[A]

I knew I could if I really needed it. So thank you.

[B]

Well, and thank you for doing this podcast today. I know it's hard. Oh, I know you're better, but it's still hard.

[A]

Yeah. Thank you. Well, you know, and maybe this is a really good message for folks that we can show up at work and do our best. And sometimes it might not be our actual best, but it can be good enough. So thank you for that space. Do you think we're ready for our tips?

[B]

Kim? Yeah. Yes, almost ready. I have one other thing, so I said the first 12 minutes of the one on one. Oh yeah, the last three minutes. I recommend soliciting.

[A]

Who said you weren't good at math?

[B]

I recommend soliciting feedback at the end. Just ask people on a regular basis, what can I do or stop doing? The last thing, which is not answering the question is I would consider trying to put a management structure in place. It's an opportunity. There's an opportunity here for people to manage others and to put a little hierarchy in place. I know people have an allergic reaction to that word for lots of good reasons, but there's evidence and we'll drop it into the show. Notes Karen Snyder has done some work that shows when a manager has more than five direct reports, they just don't have the time to do the things that are best practice to do as a manager. So anyway, if possible, it's a great way to create some career opportunities for people to put a little hierarchy in place. It may be against the rules in your company, so that may not be possible.

[A]

Now it's time for our Radical Candor Checklist tips to start putting radical candor into practice.

[B]

Tip number one for the person managing 30 to 50 people, consider implementing an ideas Team, a system for listening to suggestions from all levels of an organization. The key purpose is to ensure that everyone's ideas are valued and heard and some of them actually get acted upon. When you have an ideas team in place, it's important to regularly address suggestions and explain why some ideas are pursued while others are not. But again, the ideas team can do this. The manager doesn't have to do it. All the manager has to do is to promise to take one or two actions a week. An ideas team can ensure that employees are heard and valued and that their great ideas are put into practice even when their specific idea isn't implemented. It's important.

[A]

Tip number two for our listener and other folks in similar situations, walking around the shop floor or an open office is a powerful way to build relationships and stay connected with your team. When you're physically present and walking around, you can naturally pick up on people's mental states, their emotional state. Maybe they seem energized or discouraged, maybe focused or distracted without having to schedule formal check ins. And these impromptu interactions where you're demonstrating genuine curiosity can create opportunities for quick, timely feedback conversations that feel more natural than scheduled meetings.

[B]

Tip number three make the most of the time you have when you do have one on ones by being fully present and focused. In open environments there can be many distractions, but it's essential to show that you care personally by giving your full attention. Put your phone away, turn off notifications, and position yourself to minimize visual distractions. If you're interrupted, apologize and quickly get back to focusing on your direct report. This demonstrates respect for their time and shows that you value these conversations. By the way, these conversations could happen in the parking lot if it's too noisy on the shop floor.

[A]

For more tips, check out our YouTube channel where you can not only listen to this podcast but also watch dozens of other Radical Candor videos. To get this podcast early and ad free, go to radicalcandor.com Community show notes for this episode [e-mail] Podcast praise in public, criticize in private so if you like what you hear, we hope you do, please do follow, rate and review us wherever you listen to your podcasts. It really does help. And if you've got criticism, go ahead, email it podcastadicalcandor.com Bye for now.

[B]

Take care everyone and remember, if you don't like what you're here, we really want to hear about it. So let us know.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Take care.

[A]

The Radical Candor Podcast is based on the book Radical Be a Kick Ass Boss without losing your Humanity by Kim Scott. Episodes are written and produced by Brandy Neal with script editing by me, Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff and is hosted by me still Amy Sandler. Nick Karisimi is our audio engineer. The Radical Candor Podcast theme music was composed by Cliff Goldmacher. Follow us on LinkedIn, Radical Candor the company and visit [e-mail].