Radical Candor: Communication at Work

Episode: The Cult of The Credo: How a Beloved Brand Betrayed Your Trust

Date: September 10, 2025
Hosts: Kim Scott, Jason Rosoff, Amy Sandler
Guest: Gardner Harris (Author of "No More: The Dark Secrets of Johnson & Johnson")

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the explosive findings of Gardner Harris’ book, “No More: The Dark Secrets of Johnson & Johnson,” revealing how the iconic American healthcare conglomerate betrayed the public’s trust for decades. Through investigative journalism, Harris exposes the company’s hidden history of deadly and unethical practices, and the culture of secrecy, institutional failure, and systemic regulatory capture that enabled it. The discussion also challenges our collective assumptions about business ethics, regulatory bodies like the FDA, and the medical-professional ecosystem, while offering practical steps for personal and systemic change.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Hasn't This Story Been Told?

(02:01 – 05:32)

• Gardner Harris details why his book’s revelations are largely unknown, citing media reluctance and a culture of disbelief due to Johnson & Johnson’s sterling public image.
• Harris: "I have grand jury files. I have extraordinary documentation for all of these claims. But they are so extraordinary, I think, that they sort of let it go." (04:25)

2. Systemic Failure Beyond Johnson & Johnson

(05:32 – 08:36)

• The book indicts broader institutions: the FDA, the legal and medical professions, and the media for enabling J&J’s misconduct.
• Harris emphasizes the concept of “regulatory capture”—institutions siding with industry at public expense.
• Media stories exposing J&J were suppressed over fear of losing ad revenue—a systemic silencing.
• Harris: “All of these institutions that we think are protecting us… are not really protecting us.” (07:28)

3. Emotional Branding, Trust, and Cultural Programming

(09:16 – 14:38; 27:39 – 29:55)

• J&J's products (baby powder, Tylenol, etc.) created an emotional connection and implicit trust.
• The iconic “smell” of baby powder led to intense, subconscious loyalty.
• Kim Scott: “So deep is this idea that this is a good company and that the Sacklers were a bad apple, but the system is okay. It’s not okay.” (26:32)
• Harris: “You have essentially been born with this brain worm that makes you think Johnson & Johnson, you think wonderful stuff… Many companies have rational trust. Johnson & Johnson has emotional trust.” (28:52)

4. Product-Specific Disasters & Hidden Harms

a. Baby Powder & Talc (09:17 – 14:42)

• J&J concealed evidence of asbestos in its talc for decades, tied to 15% of ovarian cancers.
• Harris: “They knew...they were poisoning mothers and babies. They knew that tens of thousands of women at least would die, and they kept it up.” (12:05)

b. EPO and Cancer (13:36 – 16:13; 33:52 – 38:03)

• EPO, intended for kidney dialysis, was promoted for cancer despite evidence it increased mortality—oncologists financially incentivized to prescribe.
• Harris: "Oncologists, on average, made about $300,000... exclusively on prescribing EPO to their patients. It roughly doubled their income." (35:12)

c. Antipsychotics (Risperdal) & Opioids (14:54 – 24:40; 18:20 – 24:40)

• J&J’s aggressive, inappropriate marketing of antipsychotics led to more deaths than the opioid epidemic; the real “worst” crisis.
• Opioid crisis: J&J products found in a majority of overdose victims, the Purdue/Sackler story is a smaller part of the problem.
• Harris: “Six in ten had a J&J product in their system. J&J was far more important to the proliferation of opioids.” (21:30)

d. Other Products: Hip Implants, Vaginal Mesh, Birth Control, NICU Drugs (22:58 – 23:36; 40:49 – 41:30)

• Products like metal-on-metal hip implants, vaginal mesh, and a heartburn medication (Propulsid) for preemies were released with known risks, maiming women and children.
• Harris: “There are all these products...in which they knowingly wounded infants and children, the most innocent people.” (23:09)

5. Conflicts of Interest, Medical Incentives & Systemic Corruption

(31:33 – 38:03; 38:06 – 41:37)

• Doctors’ incentives are misaligned: huge industry kickbacks, even “good” professionals can be unwittingly corrupted.
• Electronic health records have enabled finer-grained billing abuses, with administrators pushing up “profit per patient” through unnecessary procedures.
• Harris: “That sort of small level corruption has become endemic across the healthcare system...” (38:52)

6. Culture of Fear & The "Cult of the Credo"

(47:24 – 51:27)

• J&J used its “Credo” (corporate mission) to gaslight employees, identify potential whistleblowers, and suppress internal dissent.
• The company’s structure (many subsidiaries) created a constant sense of job insecurity, quashing resistance.
• Kim Scott: “So everybody’s afraid of being fired and so they’re not going to speak up. And then they give them the opportunity to speak up and those who do are out.” (51:05)

7. The Anatomy of Doubling Down on Denial

(51:39 – 56:47)

• Discussion of the moral and psychological mechanism by which J&J leaders & staff justified continued malfeasance once it became ‘consequence-free’—the organization becomes sociopathic.
• Harris: "...what happens is they kind of get away with murder...and then are feted as amongst the most ethical people on the planet." (53:44)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Gardner Harris: "I am accusing Johnson & Johnson of causing or contributing to the deaths of more than two million Americans. That’s nearly twice as many Americans as have died in all the wars in American history." (02:56)
• Amy Sandler: “You almost have to...counteract all of that programming.” (29:55)
• Harris: “A top FDA official described this as mass euthanasia with plausible deniability. Antipsychotics are used in nursing homes...to minimize staffing costs.” (16:30)
• Kim Scott: “It’s like the ultimate manipulative insincerity.” (On ‘the Credo’)(51:27)
• Harris: “There was almost certainly not a single American family that has not been affected by these things I talk about.” (57:39)

Concrete Steps & Hope for Change

(57:33 – End)

• Personal Action:

  • Check your physicians’ payments from pharma/device companies (Physician Payment Sunshine Act).
  • Question prescriptions, especially for unnecessary surgeries, opioid/birth control/antipsychotic use.
  • Discard Extra Strength Tylenol and be wary of name-brand bias.
  • Have conversations and share your stories—it breaks the silence.

• Advocacy/Systemic Reform:

  • FDA must be independently funded, not by industry.
  • Investigative and safety oversight should become the role of a truly independent body (akin to the NTSB in aviation).
  • Push for regulatory reform (writing to representatives, raising awareness).

• Harris: "I'm hoping to empower you to at least ask the right questions." (66:49)

Key Timestamps

• 02:19 – Why the media won’t tackle J&J’s crimes
• 05:33 – How Harris obtained grand jury files, and widespread institutional complicity
• 09:17 – J&J’s product range: Baby powder, talc, EPO, Risperdal, more
• 12:05 – Company & legal knowledge of harms; the “ladder down” from ethics
• 14:54 – Antipsychotics & COVID devastation in nursing homes
• 18:20 – Opioid epidemic origins and scale
• 27:39 – How “emotional trust” enabled J&J’s impunity
• 35:03 – EPO, oncology fraud, and insurance abuse
• 38:06 – Systemic billing scam enabled by digital health records
• 47:24 – The “cult of the credo” and internal gaslighting
• 53:44 – J&J’s leaders’ moral collapse post-Tylenol scandal
• 57:49 – The reach of J&J’s harm: every family affected
• 59:33 – Actionable hope: regulatory change & what individuals can do

Takeaway

Gardner Harris’s reporting demolishes the myth of Johnson & Johnson as America’s most trusted, ethical company, revealing breathtaking, systemic harm that implicates regulators, professionals, and the company’s own employees. The conversation urges listeners to move beyond misplaced trust—by asking hard questions, demanding regulation, holding institutions accountable, and looking out for themselves and their loved ones in a system that, as it stands, frequently puts profit above lives.

Further Resources:

• Physician Payments Sunshine Act/Database
• Gardner Harris’s book: No More: The Dark Secrets of Johnson & Johnson
• Radical Candor Community & show notes for links and resources