The Fixable Framework : Solve Real Problems Quickly, Without Breaking Relationships with Frances Frei & Anne Morriss 7|42

Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: Radical Candor: Communication at Work
Episode: The Fixable Framework: Solve Real Problems Quickly, Without Breaking Relationships
Hosts: Kim Scott, Jason Rosoff, Amy Sandler
Guests: Frances Frei, Anne Morriss (Authors, Advisors, Hosts of the Fixable podcast)
Date: December 3, 2025

This episode explores how to drive real, rapid improvement in organizations—solving meaningful problems without damaging relationships. Drawing from their book Move Fast and Fix Things and their experience advising companies (notably Uber), Frances Frei and Anne Morriss share their actionable "Fixable Framework." The conversation dives into diagnosing root problems, sequencing for speed and trust, building and restoring trust, and effectively influencing up the org chart. The dialogue is energetic, candid, and loaded with stories, scripts, and practical tips.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Move Fast & Fix Things vs. Move Fast & Break Things (00:49–04:53)

• Kim Scott opens by referencing Facebook’s old motto ("Move fast and break things") and questions whether Frances and Anne’s philosophy is a reaction against reckless speed.
• Frances Frei clarifies:

  “Move fast and break things gave speed a bad name. … We wrote this book to give speed a good name again. Give it back its proper place in the hierarchy.” (02:34)

• Momentum matters—Faster problem-solving energizes teams, but speed without thoughtful problem-scoping is counterproductive.
• Kim Scott adds: Radical candor relies on momentum, pointing out that “the biggest problem is that people say nothing ... If you say nothing, you can’t fix it.” (03:05)
• Frances: Saying something makes the collective ceiling much higher (03:46).

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The Fixable Framework: Solving the Right Problem (04:53–08:23)

• Five Days/Steps Structure:
  Frances and Anne introduce their process metaphorically mapped to weekdays:

  • Monday: Diagnose the right problem.
  • Tuesday: Build trust.
  • Wednesday: Involve “unusual suspects.”
  • Thursday: Craft the story.
  • Friday: Execute with speed.

• Misdiagnosing Problems—Teams often address only symptoms. Anne:

  “Monday’s a day everyone likes to skip over ... We’re trying to slow people down in this first step ... but it just takes a day.” (06:50)

• Example: Tech CEO misattributes friction to generational conflict; real issue was lack of strategic focus, causing chaos and group isolation by age cohorts (07:31).

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Trust as a Prerequisite for Speed (08:23–11:53)

• Many organizations go too slow, not too fast. Frances:

  “The slow is really the problem that we observed. And so we wanted to equip people with how to go quickly through the four steps that happen before you get to confidently go fast.” (09:18)

• Checklist Before Sprinting:

  • Solve the right problem
  • Run smart experiments before scaling
  • Get the right people involved
  • Tell a story about the change to bring others along (10:39)

• Velvet Coffin Metaphor—Too comfortable, risk of organizational stagnation.

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Diagnosing the Right Problem (14:03–17:27)

• Anne & Frances’s System for Diagnosis:
  • Toyota’s “Five Whys”: Ask “why” successively to reach the root cause. Even three “whys” can suffice in leadership contexts (14:03).
  • Chris Argyris’s “Discuss the Undiscussable”: Surface what’s not being talked about; true insight emerges when collective curiosity replaces individual certainty (15:26).
• Curiosity as Leadership Muscle:
  Anne:

  “It is about channeling curiosity. It’s about asking the right questions. It’s not about having the right answers ... give themselves permission to not know and to be deeply curious about the problem.” (15:45)

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Root Cause Example: HBS Gender Promotions (16:32–18:44)

• Frances recounts HBS men promoted faster than women; the root was how faculty used video feedback (men improved, women’s self-critique worsened performance).
• Solution: Switch to coaches reviewing tapes, providing brief targeted feedback—improved equality and retention.
• Key Lesson: Improvement for one group should also benefit everyone (18:44).

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The Trust Triangle: Authenticity, Logic, Empathy (20:52–25:49)

• Tuesday = “Trust Day”
  Frances:

  “If you experience my authenticity, logic, and empathy, which there are so many overlaps with your work ... you will trust me.” (21:18)

• Diagnosing Trust Breaks: Every breach traces to a wobble in one of the three pillars (authenticity, logic, empathy).
• Tailoring Leadership:
  • “You need leadership styles [plural]. … maybe there’s a leadership style for Amy and Anne and another leadership style for me and you, Kim.” (23:31)
• Most leaders self-diagnose ‘empathy wobbles’:
  • “Most of the hands are self-diagnosed empathy wobblers.” (24:40)

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Building & Repairing Trust: Practical Tips (25:10–28:44)

• Two trust myths:

  • It takes a long time to build
  • Once broken, it can’t be restored
    Both are false if you address the correct pillar.

• Empathy Training:

  • You can “fake it till you make it” with empathy—using empathetic behavior increases both others’ perception and your own capacity.
  • “By the time you're done asking the question that you are not interested in, you become interested...” (27:40)

• Empathy Anchors vs. Empathy Wobblers:

  • Anchors excel at making sure everyone’s aligned before moving forward.
  • “We call it the agony of the super smart ... empathy anchors spend ... time making sure the last among us gets it ... everything is better when we’re all on the same page.” (28:53)

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Trust Profiles and Team Effectiveness (30:02–31:01)

• Optimal Partnerships:
  • Often CEOs are empathy wobblers; Chief People Officers are empathy anchors. Strong leadership comes from trust profile diversity at the top.

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Communicating Logic (31:25–32:11)

• Logic Wobblers: Usually not a lack of logic, but failure to communicate logic clearly.

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Giving & Earning Trust (32:11–32:39)

• Teach how to earn trust first; once that’s established, trust can flow both ways.

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Framework Recap: The Fixable Week (32:42–33:44)

• Wednesday: Invite diverse perspectives—bring in “unusual suspects.”
• Thursday: Storytelling—perfect your change narrative, aiming for draft #20 quality.
• Friday: Move fast with confidence—after sequencing the steps, speed is safe and productive.

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Speaking Truth to Power (34:09–39:03)

• Managing Up Tips:
  • Recognize “authenticity wobbles” (holding back for people-pleasing)
  • Empathy with a boss ≠ people-pleasing; it’s about showing you understand their perspective and what matters to them.
  • Sincere, specific positive feedback (the opposite of “kissing up”) lays the groundwork for tough conversations.
  • 5:1 positive-to-constructive feedback ratio (from Gottman research and organizational practice) (38:19).

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Giving Feedback Upwards: Scripts & Strategies (39:14–40:17)

• Constructive Feedback Framework:

  • “There’s a small change that I believe would make a big difference—let me know if you’re interested, I’d be delighted to talk about it.” (39:15)

• If not received, continue showing positive support until the time is right.

• On Praise:

  • Be operationally specific—if you’d say it to a dog, it’s not great praise (“Good job!” isn’t enough. Be specific.) (40:05)

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Scooby Snacks: Public Appreciation (40:17–42:32)

• Scooby Snacks = Verbal treats (positive reinforcement)
  • Best when specific and public.
  • Guests and hosts exchange appreciation, modeling granular, authentic praise.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Frances Frei:

  “What we see as the greatest danger, though, is really good people who care and get it. They ... choose take care. And they go too slowly and they're too methodical … The slow is really the problem that we observed.” (09:18)

• Kim Scott:

  “If you say something and you don’t say it right, you can fix it. But if you say nothing, you can’t fix it.” (03:05)

• Anne Morriss, On Diagnosing Problems:

  “It is about channeling curiosity...getting teams and leaders and organization to put down the armor of judgment and give themselves permission to not know and to be deeply curious...” (15:45)

• Frances Frei on Empathy Wobblers:

  “We call it the agony of the super smart ... which is how they’re perceived: ass for short.” (28:53)

• Frances Frei, On Restoring Trust:

  “You can build [trust] quickly, sometimes in minutes, and you can restore it to greater than its previous value.” (25:10)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:49 – Opening: Contrasting “Move Fast and Break Things” vs. “Fixable” Philosophy
• 04:53 – Five Steps Structure Introduced
• 06:50 – Real-world Example: Generational Conflict vs. Strategy Problem
• 14:03 – Diagnosing the Right Problem (“Five Whys” & “Discuss the Undiscussable”)
• 16:32 – HBS Gender Feedback Example
• 20:52 – Trust Triangle (Authenticity, Logic, Empathy)
• 24:40 – Most Leaders Are Empathy Wobblers
• 27:40 – Empathy Training Mechanics
• 31:01 – Team Trust Profiles
• 33:14 – Fixable Week Recap
• 34:09 – Navigating Difficult Conversations Upward
• 39:14 – Giving Tough Feedback to Your Boss
• 40:17 – Scooby Snacks: Public Praise

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Key Takeaways

• Speed and trust are not enemies: You can move fast and still care deeply about people, provided you build trust and sequence improvement correctly.
• Use structured diagnosis: Don’t accept the first answer about what’s broken—dig deeper with curiosity and root-cause analysis.
• Trust is a triangle: Authenticity, logic, and empathy are all required—wobbles can be temporary and fixable, especially if you tailor your approach to your own profile and those you lead.
• Feedback up and down: Build positive relationships with specific praise, offer constructive criticism at the right time, and always start by understanding what matters to leaders above you.
• Public praise (Scooby Snacks) is powerful: Celebrate specific behaviors openly for engagement and morale.

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Additional Resources

• Find Frances Frei & Anne Morriss: Best via LinkedIn (WNBA commentary for Frances on Twitter); Fridays at noon Frances holds public “office hours.”
• Book: Move Fast and Fix Things
• Podcast: Fixable

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This summary captures the spirit, language, and learnings of the episode, including practical frameworks, memorable stories, actionable tips, and direct speaker quotes for listeners and new learners alike.

Transcript

[Amy Sandler]

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[Ann Morris]

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[Kim Scott]

Hello everybody and welcome to the Radical Canner Podcast. I'm Kim Scott.

[Amy Sandler]

I am Amy Sandler and we are so excited to welcome to the podcast Anne Morris and Frances Fry. Anne and Frances are best selling authors and among the world's most influential thinkers, speakers and advisors. Ann's a CEO and best selling author and Frances is a professor of technology and Operations management at Harvard Business School. So when companies want help reaching their most ambitious goals, they call Ann and Frances. And when folks like you, our listeners, are needing fast, meaningful fixes for your workplace problems, they call into Anne and Frances's podcast, it's called Fixable, and get their problems solved in 30 minutes or less.

[Kim Scott]

I love the efficiency also.

[Amy Sandler]

I know, Kim, that's your love language. And speaking of love languages, Anne and Frances are also married. We are excited to welcome you both.

[Ann Morris]

We're delighted to be here.

[Kim Scott]

Thrilled to talk to you. I love the idea of moving fast and fixing things. And in particular I love it because when I think this was back in 2013, but a friend of mine who worked at Facebook at the time sent me a picture and they had these old posters on the wall that said move fast and break things and someone had replaced it with a stop sign and it said slow down and fix your shit. So, so I wonder, as you all talk about moving fast and fixing things, are you sort of like the person who changed the poster on the wall of Facebook or what's the thinking?

[Frances Fry]

One of the things, the reason that we wrote this is that we feel that move fast and break things gave speed a bad name and that improvement actually reveals that, yes, speed. Like thinking, oh, if I, if only I slow down. And I just want to say, but don't break, still not going to fix it. And indeed you need momentum. So once you fix it, momentum helps so one of the reasons we wrote the book was to give speed a good name again. Give it back its proper place in the hierarchy.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. And I like what you said, Francis, about momentum, because I do feel so often like part of radical candor is about momentum. And so the biggest problem is that people say nothing. That's the biggest problem in general, in all different kinds of relationships. And so if you say something and you don't say it right, you can fix it. But if you say nothing, you can't fix it. Right. My great grandmother had five daughters, and she needle pointed a pillow for each of them that said, say something, you can always take it back.

[Frances Fry]

That's so good. If I don't say anything, I'm in my own mind. So, yeah, my ceiling is my thought.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Frances Fry]

But if I say something, the ceiling is now our collective.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Frances Fry]

So the potential is just so much higher if I put it out there and we get to work with it.

[Kim Scott]

Yes. And also I may be wrong about what I'm thinking. And if I don't do you the honor of sharing what I'm thinking with you, then I deprive you of the opportunity to tell me that I'm wrong.

[Ann Morris]

I do a lot of coaching, and at my side of the house, Prince and I are married, but we have different lanes.

[Frances Fry]

Okay.

[Ann Morris]

We swim into each other's lanes all the time. I do a lot of the one on one work. And what we'll often hear from CEOs and senior leaders is, I don't have time for this shit.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah.

[Ann Morris]

You know, this kind of doing this the right way, working with people saying what's on your mind, you know, doing the work so that you can ultimately move fast. And the big message of our work is that you do have to sequence it. You can go as fast as the trust you have built with the stakeholders around you. And so we wrote this book to give people a playbook for how to do that.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah, it's sort of like a stitch in time saves nine.

[Ann Morris]

This is not new wisdom. You know, we're Jimming up with. With newfangled language for it. But people have known this for a long time.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. So can you share a story about where this works? Specifically, what are you talking about? Like, it conjures all kind kinds of things to my mind when you say move fast and fix things. But what, what are you thinking of? What's your origin story of move fast and fix things?

[Frances Fry]

Well, the origin, probably for me, it goes back to Uber and they were in a, you know, they had A lot to fix. They had a lot to fix. And if we took a long time to fix it, that wasn't going to be. That wasn't going to solve it. It's so much easier to galvanize people with momentum. But there's a few things, as Ann said, that you had to do. So we had to make sure we were solving the right problem. And when I got to Uber, everyone was very busy.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Frances Fry]

But too often we're working on symptoms. And so the Monday of it all, because we sequence it in five steps and we playfully do it as days of the week, what we do on Monday is make sure we're solving the right problem. And that actually liberates people time because it stops you from the infinite game of working on the symptoms. And though when we got to Uber and I say we, I was the one who physically went there. But Ann and I do all of the work together. We got there to figure out what is the problem. Very fortunately, there were very few problems. They just manifested everywhere.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Frances Fry]

But we could have just started to go where all the smoldering was and just joined in the busyness. So that's. I think the origin of it is we wanted to go fast. It wasn't to add more things to the plate. It was to replace things on the plate and ultimately liberate the time and space to do it.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. And making sure, I guess, that you're solving the right problem, the big problem.

[Ann Morris]

I'll give you an example for a team we worked with recently, because Monday's a day everyone likes to skip over. There's so much overconfidence that you know what problem you have to solve. So we are trying to slow people down in this first step and take the time. It doesn't have to take a long time, but you have to pause and make sure. It takes a day. Just takes a day. It takes a day. We were working with a team in tech recently, and the CEO was totally convinced that he had an intergenerational problem that the Xers and the Gen Z just couldn't work together. And so they work on all of these initiatives. And we hear this all the time about the generations can't work together. And we're. We're suspicious of the diagnosis.

[Kim Scott]

Me too.

[Ann Morris]

What we discovered was that they had a pretty serious strategy problem and that the senior team refused to make choices.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah.

[Ann Morris]

Pursuing like six opportunities at once. And this organization could really only handle one, maybe two. And in the chaos, people were taking refuge with their own generation just for safety.

[Kim Scott]

Right.

[Ann Morris]

Just get through the day because there was so much going on. And so we worked with the team to figure out, okay, well, how do we create an environment where human beings and their nervous system can actually handle the strategy that you designed? But it was so far away from where they started.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. And it's so easy to misdiagnose the problem, especially when you're in the thick of it, which is why it's great to bring someone from the outside to come in and sort of take a look with fresh eyes or at least.

[Ann Morris]

Create, create a little friction.

[Frances Fry]

Diving in, solving the symptoms, getting busy and causing chaos. So the move fast and break things, thinking that that's the only way to move fast. Like if there's collateral damage, it will somehow take care of itself, which is just a. Interesting way to see the world. What we see as the greatest danger, though, is really good people who care and get it. They have been convinced that you can either go fast or take care. And they choose take care. And they go too slowly and they're too methodical. So if you ask people in organizations, is the pace of change like too fast or too slow? The majority of organizations, the people in it are going to say it's too slow. The slow is really the problem that we observed. And so we wanted to equip people with how to go quickly through the four steps that happen before you get to confidently go fast.

[Kim Scott]

And one of the things you need, of course, to move fast is good breaks. You know, you don't have good breaks, then it's very scary and not safe to go too fast.

[Frances Fry]

And it does feel reckless. Reckless as opposed to that, like, feel when the wind is in your sails and just want to take advantage of it.

[Ann Morris]

Yeah, yeah. But people thought we were just talking to Mark and trying to, you know, convince people that move fast and break things is not the way to do it. But as Francis said, the audience we really wanted to engage was well meaning leaders who were moving way too slowly for the impact that they set out to have. Someone described it culturally as a velvet coffin.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Ann Morris]

To us recently, it feels good. It feels cozy.

[Kim Scott]

It doesn't feel good. It feels like. At least for me and Amy give you plenty of stories about my wild impatience. But like for me, when things are moving tooth flow, it feels like being stuck in traffic. And there's nothing psychologically safe about being stuck in traffic or satisfying. It's like a productivity killer. And it's like not good for your relationships either. I don't have my best conversations when I'm stuck in traffic.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah.

[Ann Morris]

For people like you and Francis, what we wanted. We just want to give you a little checklist before you start sprinting.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah, before I start breaking things.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah.

[Ann Morris]

And it doesn't have to take long. You know, we want you to make sure you're solving the right problem. We want you to, you know, run a smart experiments before you scale that solution. We want you to get the right people in the room, and then we want you to tell a story about the change you're leading that other people can follow so that you're not just running off the cliff by yourself. Yeah.

[Kim Scott]

Amy, what are your thoughts on moving fast and fixing things?

[Amy Sandler]

Well, what's coming up for me is you have the story in the book, Kim, where you're swinging the lasso and, like, at the end of it, everyone's like, flying around all over the place. And I think I just really appreciate what Ann and Francis were talking about, about the trust and speed. And listening to your podcast, Frances and Ann, I see the dynamic interplay there that I probably index much more on the trust and the speed is a bit of a counterintuitive message. In the same way, I'm thinking, Ann, how do you convince that person that no actually slowing down a little bit is going to help you actually fix things? Whereas for someone like me, you would have to convince me that moving fast is actually going to enable even more trust. So I think there's probably two different types of mistakes that we tend to see, and I'm probably more on the high trust, low speed side.

[Frances Fry]

Responsible stewardship.

[Amy Sandler]

Yes.

[Kim Scott]

Thank you. You know, it's funny, when I first got to Google, I had a team of 100 people on five direct reports. And the same week I'd been there, I don't know, three or four weeks, three of my five direct reports just moved to other teams. At Google, if you didn't like your boss, you could just find a new one.

[Amy Sandler]

Move fast, Leave your boss.

[Kim Scott]

Yes. And I remember thinking, oh, my gosh, I'm gonna get fired. And I went in to talk to my boss and she said, you know, you did all the right things, Kim, from a practical point of view, but you forgot to bring your team along. And she said, from your perspective, it was like you're swinging a rope and you're just moving your wrist. It's not violent, it's not scary, but if you're at the end of the rope, it feels. Yeah, feels pretty scary.

[Ann Morris]

Yeah. We give you a whole day to do that. That's once you figure out the plan.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. So that was what we call the get shit done wheel at radical Canoe, where you have to listen, you have to stop and listen and help people clarify their ideas. And then you can debate the ideas. And then somebody, not the leader, usually has to make a decision. You want to push decisions into the fact, not grab the decisions. And then you have to persuade people. And only then can you start doing stuff. Most leaders go right to the start doing stuff part.

[Frances Fry]

And if speed is Friday, the danger for one group of people is pulling that day forward and that has a known outcome. And the other one, to Amy's point that there are two challenges, is we're going to take so long do each step.

[Kim Scott]

The eternal Monday is not a good feeling.

[Frances Fry]

So we only give you one day. You get all day, but you only get one day.

[Ann Morris]

One day. That's good.

[Amy Sandler]

I would love. You know, I observed in, in both your podcast as well as what you're talking about when you're doing your consulting, this just incredible skill of diagnosing the right problem. And I just wonder, like, what tip might you have for someone who struggles with that? Like, is there a methodology or just way of almost systematizing how you all think about getting to that right problem?

[Frances Fry]

It's a great question. So we bring two sides of the brain to doing it. One side of the brain is Toyota production system root cause analysis, which they call the five whys. Whatever the symptom is, why does it exist? Whatever that is, why does that exist? And they in a complicated auto manufacturing plant, the symptom and the cause were five whys away. And so you didn't stop prematurely. So whatever your symptom is, we can guarantee you it's not the right problem. Let us liberate you from that. So just bringing that in now, we tell people many leadership challenges aren't as complicated as that, but a minimum of three whys. So that's one side of the brain. The other side of the brain comes from Chris Argyrous, who's organizational scholar. All of us built on Chris's work. Now, one of the reasons we get to continue our work is he didn't always write it down in an accessible way. Yeah, he's given all of us jobs just to simply translate all of his things. But one of his things, that's the other side of the brain, is discuss the undiscuss and that if we know that there is an undiscussable there and our job is to set the table to make sure that it is discussed so we Bring in both of those. Half the room is persuaded by Toyota. The other half is persuaded by Chris. And then we ask, what is the symptom that is bringing us here?

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Frances Fry]

And then we get to collectively go through it. And so that's the systematizing.

[Kim Scott]

So that's Monday.

[Ann Morris]

I'll offer one other thing, because Monday can be really hard for some leaders and some organizations. And one of the reasons is it's. It is a very different part of the brain than you're using in the rest of your day job.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Ann Morris]

It is about channeling curiosity. It's about asking the right questions. It's not about having the right answers. At this point, we really want to get you in touch with that curious inner scientist who's not that helpful the rest of the week. But is.

[Frances Fry]

Is the part of you that you.

[Ann Morris]

Need on Monday, and that's a much more vulnerable part of us. It is hard to come to the office without having the answer by the time you're sitting in the C suite. And so we do a lot of work of just getting teams and leaders and organization to put down the armor of judgment and give themselves permission to not know and to be deeply curious about the problem.

[Kim Scott]

Often these senior leaders are really good at pretending that they know, you know, and it becomes a habit.

[Frances Fry]

I think they would even pass a lie detector test. So one example that I usually bring in. It's depending on the room, is that at hbs, men were getting promoted at a faster rate than women. And we didn't talk about it. Everyone walked around with utmost confidence that they knew why, and it was wildly different.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Frances Fry]

And as we're all pulling the organization in different directions, and we never got to the root of the problem. Now, once we were permitted to get to the root of the problem, you could find out, like, oh, it's this. Okay, we can fix that.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Frances Fry]

You can't. You can't fix it up here. And so these symptoms can really be alluring that you. I do think that everyone would pass the lie detector test. Everybody was stating their hypothesis as fact.

[Ann Morris]

Yes.

[Frances Fry]

And not talking to each other about it. And then that can last for decades.

[Ann Morris]

Frances, what's the punchline of that story? Because I think it's a terrific example of when you give yourself permission to be curious, you actually uncover solvable problems.

[Frances Fry]

Totally solvable problems. We've yet to find a problem that's not solvable. Well, at hbs, there's a research side and the teaching side. I'll give you the example on the teaching side. Which is that men had higher teaching ratings than women. Well, it turns out if you were. If you come to hbs and you're a struggling teacher, we would take videos of you and invite you to watch a video of yourself in order to improve. And for men, like, they were eating popcorn, inviting their family. They loved watching how awesome they looked. These were videos of them struggling. I'm on tv. It was very helpful. And they got better immediately.

[Kim Scott]

And the women judged themselves harshly. And it was a vicious cycle.

[Frances Fry]

And they got worse.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Frances Fry]

So now once you get to peel back the layer of the onion, I'm like, all right, well, then videos are really helpful. But now I'll watch the video for you.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Frances Fry]

And I'll figure out the coaching lesson. We got it down to, like a five minute coaching session. I could watch the video for you, help you see it, and then the women would get better at the same rate as men.

[Kim Scott]

That is a great story. Yeah.

[Frances Fry]

And importantly, the men then came back and said, wait one second. I got to watch all 90 minutes of class. And she gets a five minute coaching session. And then here's where we learned a really important lesson. When you make the world better for women, you better do it in a way where you make it better for everyone. Everyone can either watch the video or get the coaching at their.

[Kim Scott]

They can choose. That is so good.

[Frances Fry]

It's. It reminds me.

[Kim Scott]

So I have twins. Boy, girl, twins. So it's like a little experiment, gender differences. And we used to go to this farm every weekend where there were a lot of chickens, and they would chase the chickens and catch the chickens, and my son would catch the chicken and hold it. And this chicken was terrified. Was trapping all over him, like poop everywhere. And he would look at me and smile and say, me. And I'm like, I want to be a little boy. Though, watching the videos, that's what was coming to mind.

[Frances Fry]

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[Ann Morris]

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[Kim Scott]

All right, so I want to move on to the trust triangle, but can you quickly go through Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday?

[Ann Morris]

Well, it's Tuesday's trust. Frances, do you want to.

[Frances Fry]

So what we have found is that if I am to earn your trust, if you experience three things from me simultaneously, you will trust me kind of without even realizing it. And this is, to me, a miracle.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Frances Fry]

So you only have to work on these three things, because trust is too. Like, I want to build trust, but I don't really know how to do it. It's only got three pillars to it. And so if you experience my authenticity, logic, and empathy, which there are so many overlaps with your work, but if you experience these three things, you will trust me. And every single time, trust is broken. This is the important part. Every single time trust is broken between individuals, companies, teams, societies, we can trace it back to one of these three, which is why it's the trust triangle. But what's cool about this is trust can be rebuilt if and only if you figure out which of these three it is and don't bring an empathy solution to an authenticity problem, for example.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah, I love it. One of the things that I have found in my coaching practice is that sometimes people are like, you know, I'm just being my authentic self. Like, oh, no, you're just being an asshole. Like, authenticity means building great relationships. It means I'm going to be who I really am, but I'm not going to ignore the impact I'm having on you.

[Ann Morris]

We have that conversation a lot. We'll say, sure, be your authentic self in the room, but make sure that you're bringing just as much empathy in with you.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Ann Morris]

So if you're going to dial up the authenticity, you know, because the point of the triangle is you want it to be balanced.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Ann Morris]

And usually that means for. For that guy, you got to dial it down a little bit to make room for the rest of the people.

[Frances Fry]

Or learn how to dial up the empathy.

[Kim Scott]

Right.

[Frances Fry]

You can get there in either way.

[Ann Morris]

We.

[Frances Fry]

We often do think about it as a stool and that if one leg is disproportionate, it doesn't work.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Frances Fry]

Now it's.

[Kim Scott]

When I was working with Chris A. Quarles when she was the CEO of OpenTable, we were talking about how to solicit feedback, and I was like, the question I like is what can I do or stop doing that would make it easier to work with me? And she's like, I could never imagine those words coming out of my mouth. She said, the way I like to ask is tell me why I'm wrong. Okay, that's fine too. But she said there were a couple of people on her team who found that too aggressive. And so she had to be more, you know, she had to ask more gently with those people, which is really.

[Frances Fry]

Lovely because many people think I'm going to develop a leadership style. Yeah, no, no, you need leadership styles. As we've established on this call, maybe there's a leadership style for Amy and Anne and another leadership style for me and you, Kim.

[Kim Scott]

Yes, yeah, exactly. I always, I joke, you know, if you're going to manage me, you need to move pretty far out, probably further than you're comfortable going on the challenge directly dimension. Because I don't always hear it the first. I try, sometimes I hear what I want to hear. And so you might have to say it again even more sharply. Whereas if you're managing my brother, who's a better listener and maybe a little more sensitive than I am, you have to attend more to the care personally dimension. So.

[Ann Morris]

And that's the other thing that's useful about the model. The trust triangle model is when you look at your own patterns of when you have lost trust or failed to build as much trust. It's typically, you know, it's not all three collapse at once. Typically one of the three gets a little wobbly and it tends to be the same one for each of us.

[Frances Fry]

Empathy wobbler here.

[Ann Morris]

Yes, empathy wobbler.

[Frances Fry]

If I've lost trust, don't worry about authenticity and logic. It's the real me. It's rigorous. Yeah, yeah.

[Ann Morris]

Empathy wobbles are disproportionately represented. When we get a show of hands in a room full of senior leaders, most of the hands are self diagnosed empathy wobblers.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah.

[Amy Sandler]

And do you get an additional sort of resistance of, well, I shouldn't have to do that. How do you respond to the person, the leader, who says, like Kim said, I'm just being my authentic self. And this is the culture of the organization. Like how do you actually shine a light for them that this behavior is actually beneficial and not a waste of time?

[Frances Fry]

So the motivation up front is that there are two myths about trust. One is that it takes a long time to build and two is once you've broken it, you can't restore it to its previous value. You can build it quickly, sometimes in minutes, and you can restore it to greater than its previous value. But to do so, you have to exhibit authenticity, logic, and empathy. So if you want fast and restoring to even greater. It's not enough to just think of authenticity and logic. You also need empathy. So we motivate it at the beginning. And then if that doesn't work, when someone says that, I'll pause and say, well, how's that been working out?

[Ann Morris]

Yeah, usually that's. That's enough. People are in a dialogue with us because they want better results. And so we are walking them through what are the steps to get to the payoff that they want. And often it's, how do we go faster? And it's a counterintuitive place to pause because there is a mental model that, oh, I don't have time for this shit. And what we'll say is, you don't have time not to invest skillfully in your stakeholder relationships, because that is the foundation you need to go at the speed you want to go.

[Amy Sandler]

Yeah. One of the things that we talk a lot about is how radical candor is measured, you know, not at my mouth, but at the other person's ear. And so when it comes to empathy, authenticity, like, do you have an example of a leader who was able to make that shift and build trust? And like, not only what did they do, but how was it experienced and how did they know it landed as empathy or authentic?

[Ann Morris]

Do you have one that came to mind, Francis?

[Frances Fry]

Usually the empathy wobblers amongst us, we're like, well, maybe we're not. Empathy wobble, like, maybe. And so what we'll just say is, we'll ask everyone else in the room, does that feel like an accurate diagnosis for them?

[Kim Scott]

And there is a roar, soliciting feedback.

[Frances Fry]

Yes, there is a roar of yes. And then that actually can be a little horrifying. And then when we equip them with language on how to reveal it, and Ann has beautiful statements and questions you can ask to reveal empathy. And here's a really fun fact about empathy, it's of the three of them, you can fake it till you make it. So if you behave and use the language of empathy, not only other people's experience of your empathy will rise, your experience of your empathy will rise. And so we just have to get people to try. Well, give me a script.

[Ann Morris]

Here's the thing about the script is by the time you're done asking the question that you are not interested in, you become interested in this Complex human being in front of you who is answering the question you have asked them.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Ann Morris]

You know, like it is. You can begin this journey of empathy and not be totally committed to it. Because we are confident that by the end, your empathy will start working with people. We'll start with the simple example of a meeting. Right. And the experience of empathy wobblers in a meeting versus, in our language, empathy anchors.

[Frances Fry]

Right.

[Ann Morris]

Because that's the other pattern. There's one of these that tends to be rock solid for you. You know, we drag you out of bed, you are authentic or logical or empathetic, and we will just real time talk about the distinct experiences in the room. And that's often very illuminating because empathy wobblers think it's excruciating for everybody in the room, just like it is for them, that everyone's just waiting for the meeting, mercifully comes to an end and are done because they got what they came for. 10 minutes in.

[Frances Fry]

Right.

[Ann Morris]

And so even just making that discussable and then talking about what's the small shifts we can make, and it's fun, it's playful, it's a way in.

[Kim Scott]

The empathy wobbler is the person who's their empathy leg on the stools a little short, maybe.

[Frances Fry]

Yes.

[Kim Scott]

Right? Yeah, yeah.

[Frances Fry]

In the meeting, they got it. They think super early and then they just have to endure. And so we call it the agony of the super smart, because that's like the self or ass for short, by the way, which is how they're perceived. Whereas the empathy anchor, just as smart, by the way. But once they get it, and they too might get it early, they're spending the rest of the time making sure the last among us gets, oh, that's good. And then when we ask them, I mean, what are you doing to go from eye centric? Because that's what us empathy wobblers are doing to other centric. And they give us behaviors and every one of them we can do. Like they're asking curious questions, they're nodding, and then we're like, well, what's the value proposition for doing it? Oh, well, everything is better when we're all on the same page at the end of the meeting, when you know.

[Kim Scott]

Et cetera, et cetera, you'll actually get things done faster.

[Ann Morris]

We're not trying to rewire you. We're trying to bring awareness to the pattern so that you can skillfully rebuild trust when you lose it. Now, another tactic. Amy, I suspect you are an empathy anchor.

[Kim Scott]

I would say that's correct.

[Ann Morris]

Empathy wobblers and empathy anchors teaming up to do things together.

[Frances Fry]

Greatest thing in the world.

[Ann Morris]

Is a great idea. Yeah, is a really great idea because we want you to be able to do this skillfully and then to have someone close to you or a close collaborator who's bringing a different wiring, what we call trust profile to the mix. That can be really powerful. And in fact, when we look at organizations that are very good at moving fast and fixing things, one of the patterns that we see is that there's often deep partnership between the CEO who is, you know, statistically likely to be an empathy wobbler, and the chief people officer, statistically more likely to be an empathy anchor. You look at these organizations, there is this really powerful partnership at the top. And if you look at it through the lens of trust, you're going to see teams of people that are hitting all three of these notes on a very regular basis.

[Kim Scott]

And I think also it's interesting, when you're really empathetic, it becomes much easier to share your logic, to show your work. And when you're willing to be authentic, you're also more willing to show your work. Because it's okay if somebody points out there's a flaw in your logic. And if you don't share your logic, then people can't point out the flaws.

[Frances Fry]

It's one of the reasons why we don't ask people, what are you good at? We ask people, in the rare moments when you've lost trust, if we went and interviewed your skeptic, which would they say got in the way? Authenticity, logic, or empathy? And by far, number one is empathy, but number two is logic. I don't think we ask the question, which are you not good at? Nobody's going to say logic. But when you're like, huh, in the eye of the skeptic. Yes, my logic. And then what we do, and they find this very revealing is sometimes I have great logic. I just lose you in the communication of it.

[Ann Morris]

It's the easiest one to fix. We tell the secret logic wobblers in the room that it's fantastic news because yeah, it's, it's not just some of the time, most of the time it's simply a communication issue.

[Kim Scott]

So what do you do about. People have just said, you know, I just, I don't trust other people. I'm never going to trust you. Like, how do you solve that problem?

[Frances Fry]

Yeah. So we very pedagogically teach people how to earn trust first before we talk about giving trust is what they're saying is, I Don't give it easily. Once you have taken them through the curriculum of earning, have a much more productive giving conversation.

[Kim Scott]

That's good. All right. Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah. So Wednesday is make new friends, which is whatever ideas you've come up with, which are wonderful. You've probably used the usual suspect. And so what we say is invite the unusual suspects to make your ideas better. That's what you do on Wednesday.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Frances Fry]

Thursday is now you've got an improved idea and you want it to stand in rooms when you're not there. And for that, you have to tell a good story. The story has to be as if I am there. Micro coaching. The story has to be that good.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Frances Fry]

Usually people share a story on their second draft, and you should be closer to your 20th draft.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Frances Fry]

And so it's gonna take all day to get the story that you.

[Kim Scott]

All the little details. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Frances Fry]

That's Thursday. And then Friday is, I suspect, Kim, you're in my favorite day. We get to go fast and we have all kinds of, like, cool techniques for doing it. But if you do Friday before the Friday, you're going to move fast and break thing.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Frances Fry]

Three of your.

[Kim Scott]

Three of your people will quit and go work for somebody.

[Frances Fry]

But that will give you a lifetime of learning.

[Kim Scott]

A lifetime of learning, absolutely. All right, I want to talk for a minute about how do you do this with your boss? When you go into organizations, you're working with some leaders with big personalities. How do you help organizations speak truth to power?

[Ann Morris]

Yeah, it's an awesome question. I mean, often we're working with people who are fantastic at building and leading teams, and they're very much aware of what got them here is not going to get them there. In terms of you summiting the leadership mountain, most they've called you.

[Kim Scott]

They have some awareness that there is.

[Ann Morris]

A certain opt in element to this conversation, but most of the friction they're experiencing are with their peers or with the leadership layer above. It's a much less intuitive relationship. All of your influence and power is informal. There's usually an asymmetric distribution of power in any conversation, but it may not be totally clear. So it's uncertain territory. Often for people who are used to operating on very certain and comfortable ground.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Ann Morris]

So this is a big conversation. One place we'll start is actually to go back to the trust triangle because it is the foundation of your relationship. One thing that is quite different. So in these relationships, we often think a lot about logic because we want to persuade this other human to use their Power and influence to help us. So usually a lot of awareness of that authenticity can get a little wobbly because in the face of power, I can get very protective. And I might not totally tell you what. I think I'll be a people pleaser. So that's the one I have to watch out for, actually. So I'm an authenticity wobbler. And so when I lose trust, it's often because I know what you want to hear, I know what you're feeling because I'm good at reading it. And so I. That people pleaser in me is the part of me I have to manage.

[Frances Fry]

Not doing our bosses any favor, which.

[Ann Morris]

Is not doing the organization, the mission, our colleagues any favors. Yeah, but the one that can get a little bit tricky is empathy. Because empathy looks different when we're managing up.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Ann Morris]

It is not about me revealing that I care about you and your success, Kim. Like your boss doesn't give a shit, you know, but I do have to reveal that I am aware of what you are thinking about how you are measuring your success, what is keeping you up at night. And so, you know, often we'll come into those conversations, we want to speak. Speak our truth to power. And we have our. You know, we have our deck polished and ready to. Ready for prime time. But the piece of the puzzle we're often missing is revealing that we get it. Because if I'm your boss and I'm not feeling that you have any idea of what my life is like, I'm not going to be persuaded by your message.

[Kim Scott]

I think that one of the things that can happen is often when you show your boss empathy, it can feel like kissing up. And so I think one of the things.

[Ann Morris]

And that's an authenticity wobble. And that's not helping.

[Kim Scott]

No, it doesn't help at all. I find this is true often that there are people who I've coached who are really good with their teams, they're really great with their peers, and their boss is like, why is this person so mean to me? You know, so.

[Frances Fry]

That's exactly right. So empathy, the correct kind of empathy doesn't travel up. People are surprised to hear that we probably have an empathy wobble with our boss. And so here's like a quick way out as a, you know, well versed in empathy wobbles. And I'm like, all right, well, give me the rule book. What's what to do? And this is something that you talk a lot about with radical candor. But the way in which we give our boss feedback really matters. So we all know the feedback sandwich is not a good idea and that if you're going to have anything you need like a 5 to 1 ratio minimum of positive reinforcement to constructive advice. So here's what we're going to do. You have to be super sincere and specific. Kissing up is insincere. But if you can be really granular, the way in which you came into the meeting and when I could see you wanted to say something but you didn't, that really helped. So and so like if you can be granular and super sincere about it, if what we know about everyone. If you want feedback to work, you got to have 5 to 1 ratio of positive reinforcement to constructive advice.

[Kim Scott]

But don't count because then you start to don't count five, don't do them.

[Frances Fry]

And don't do them simultaneously.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Frances Fry]

So you have to have already had a foundation of being seen because that's what sincere and specific is. It's just that I'm catching you in the granularity. So if I just come in and think today's the day I'm going to speak truth to power and I don't have a pre existing relationship of seeing you, it's not going to work.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Frances Fry]

That's why you have to invest in having the pre existing. When you came in and did this and that, then we're ready to go.

[Kim Scott]

Okay. So that's how you tell your boss the good thing. How do you tell your boss the bad thing? Well, once you came in and you pissed everybody off.

[Ann Morris]

Well, I.

[Frances Fry]

So I think that the constructive advice. Here's what we want to know is that as long as you believe that I'm doing it for improvement purpose and you'll believe it after the other five. But when I come in and say there is a small change that I believe would make a big difference.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Frances Fry]

Let me know if you're interested. I'd be delighted to talk about it.

[Kim Scott]

What do you do if they say talk to the hand?

[Frances Fry]

Yeah. If they say that now's not a good time, no problem. If you're ever frustrated by not being able to bring the team along. Delighted to have a conversation.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Ann Morris]

John and Julie Gottman, who do all the research on couples.

[Kim Scott]

Yes.

[Ann Morris]

They reached a shockingly similar conclusion. That the couples that really make it, one of the ways they know they're gonna make it is that their positive to negative interactions are at least minimum to one.

[Frances Fry]

They came together as the same numbers. It again gives us confidence that it's right.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah. And expressing gratitude and appreciation that's important for any relationship in a granular way, too.

[Frances Fry]

Right. So I think operational detail really matters. And it's hard to be insincere in a granular way.

[Ann Morris]

Yeah.

[Kim Scott]

If you're very specific. Like, the other thing we say is if it's something you would say to a dog, it's not good praise. Good job.

[Ann Morris]

Good girl.

[Kim Scott]

You peed in the right place.

[Frances Fry]

Hooray.

[Amy Sandler]

You know, one question that I had just before we close, when I was listening to Fixable, which I encourage you all to check out, you shared. I believe it was Scooby Snacks, speaking of appreciation and praise. And I thought it would be kind of fun if there was a specific and Scooby snack that you would like to acknowledge for each other on how you. How you showed up. Cause I love that idea of just acknowledging each other.

[Frances Fry]

Scooby Doo.

[Ann Morris]

Yeah.

[Frances Fry]

And it is the. It's the verbal treat. You can give positive reinforcement in the moment. It's actually not a great idea to give constructive advice in the moment. That has to be at the right moment. And that may or may not be, like, if the guys, like, talk to the hand, it's not the right moment. So.

[Kim Scott]

Yeah.

[Frances Fry]

And I like, I love your question because it's really nice to do it in a. In public, but we're going to do it for you guys, not for us. A conversation like this, I experienced that you were genuinely interested in what we had to say and that you had thought in advance about what would be useful intersections of overlap. You took host energy. Like, you took responsibility for hosting the conversation, and then you gave us the space to have the conversation. And that's a beautiful thing.

[Kim Scott]

And that Scooby stat goes entirely to Amy because he is really good at preparing, and I am terrible at. I'm like, let's just show up and figure it all out.

[Frances Fry]

Kim, I feel like we must have separated a memory from an ancestor. I mean, I'm not even sure we were separated, but I don't prep. Like, Anne is the one who has host energy on a little sticky on her computer. Yeah.

[Ann Morris]

Well, here. So that was for Amy and Amy. Thank you. We really felt really seen and valued.

[Amy Sandler]

And of course, my empathy anchor wants you to give some Scooby Snacks to Kim.

[Ann Morris]

Kim, as some. As someone who has to keep my eye on authenticity. One thing about authenticity. Well, was we're very affected by our environment. And then your authenticity from, like, the story of your. The. The chicken on your son and your grandmother's needle point, like, all of that stuff. It was so helpful for my nervous system of inviting me in and to be an authentic part of this and.

[Frances Fry]

To show up as you. Because showed up as you and it's contagious.

[Ann Morris]

Yeah.

[Kim Scott]

Well, thank you. Thank you both. My Scooby snack for you two is that I love the dynamic between the two of you. It's very reassuring to be with two people who clearly love each other, care about each other and work and get shit done together. So thank you for sharing that with the world. It's really wonderful.

[Ann Morris]

It's selfishly super fun. Francis coaxed me over to the dark side of this advisory consulting bullshit.

[Frances Fry]

Smartest thing I ever did.

[Ann Morris]

And it's really, it's really fun that we get to have this conversation with thought leaders like both of you and then work with organizations and host our own conversation on Fixable every week.

[Amy Sandler]

Well, my Scooby snack is yes, I love the dynamic. I just had so much fun. And I encourage you listeners, go check out Fixable. The thing I love about Fixable and just the way that you two complement each other is that you show it is possible we're all going to have our strengths and our challenges and actually like the, the one plus one gets to three with with two of you. So we can end on a triangle even if there's two people. So thank you for that.

[Kim Scott]

Awesome. How can people find you? I know that folks are going to.

[Ann Morris]

Want to know more.

[Kim Scott]

What's the best way for people?

[Frances Fry]

LinkedIn is the best way to do it. Unless you want to hear my WNBA rants and then go to Twitter.

[Kim Scott]

I saw some of those on LinkedIn as well.

[Frances Fry]

Well, I, I'm starting to unveil my wnba Ness on LinkedIn but there's a rich history of it on Twitter because Twitter WNBA is fun.

[Amy Sandler]

The authenticity leg is over there.

[Frances Fry]

Yes, but LinkedIn is the best way to do it. Our podcast. And then I have started a series where I have office hours open to the world every Friday at noon. And so that's another. If you want to come and learn about a specific topic, that's another way.

[Kim Scott]

I love it.

[Amy Sandler]

By the way, name of your book Francis and Ann to head people over to that too.

[Ann Morris]

It's move fast and fix things.

[Amy Sandler]

You heard it here first. It is possible. You can move fast and fix things. Head on over to radicalcander.com podcast. You can check out the show notes for this episode. If you are a visual person, go check out our podcast on YouTube and Spotify finally. And this relates to our Scooby Snacks and what Frances was just saying we like to praise in public, criticize in private. So if you like what you hear and see, please do rate and review us wherever you're listening or watching. Share the episode and if you've got feedback for us a question for a future episode, please do email us podcastadicalcandor.com thanks everyone. Thank you.

[Ann Morris]

Thanks so much.

[Kim Scott]

The Radical Candor podcast is based on the book Radical Be a kick Ass Boss without losing your Humanity by me, Kim Scott. Episodes are produced with thanks to Podium Production company with script editing by Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co founders Jason Rosoff and me. It's hosted by Amy Sandler. Nick Kame is our audio engineer. The Radical Candor podcasting music was composed by Cliff Goldbacher. Follow us on LinkedIn Radical Candor the company and visit us@radical candor.com running a.

[Frances Fry]

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