Radical Candor: Communication at Work

Episode 7 | 11: When the PIP Feels Disingenuous: The Ethics of Managing Out

Hosts: Kim Scott, Jason Rosoff & Amy Sandler
Air Date: March 12, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode tackles a challenging listener question about the ethics and emotional realities of managing out an employee through the performance improvement plan (PIP) process. The hosts engage in a candid conversation about what to do when the PIP feels less like true improvement and more like a precursor to inevitable termination. They explore how to respect both Radical Candor principles—Care Personally and Challenge Directly—while navigating HR constraints, internal conflict, and the discomfort of managing someone out.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Listener’s Dilemma: Managing Out via PIP

• Summary of Situation (01:08 – 03:28):
  • A middle manager is directed to place a struggling report (previously under their own manager) on a PIP.
  • HR and the manager anticipate eventual termination unless the employee leaves first.
  • The PIP process feels “disingenuous” to the manager, making day-to-day interactions strained and conflict-heavy.
  • Listener wonders if there’s a better, more candid way to handle the informal PIP stage or if the process is working as intended.

2. Assessing Fairness and Ethical Practice

• Passing Management Responsibility is Unfair (03:51 – 06:24):
  • Kim Scott criticizes the prior manager for assigning the problem to a new manager:

    “This person’s manager should have managed this person out rather than passing them on and then say manage this person out—that is lousy, a lousy, lousy…” — Kim (03:51)

  • The panel recommends not giving new managers problem reports if their predecessor already anticipated termination.

3. The Inevitable Tension of PIPs

• Candidness vs. Disingenuousness (06:40 – 10:20):
  • The group acknowledges clear communication can (and should) happen during the informal and formal stages.
  • “The only thing that would be disingenuous is if the direct report does begin to meet the terms of the PIP and they fire them anyway. That’s not fair… But if you tell a person what the expectations are… the job is to tell them that in every single one-on-one which is going to be unpleasant… That is where kind is clear.” — Kim (08:04)
  • Managers must be direct about unmet expectations to avoid surprises and perceived manipulation.

4. Balancing Process and Humanity

• Why the PIP Process Exists (11:19 – 21:15):
  • The PIP offers legal and ethical safeguards to ensure employees aren’t terminated without clarity and opportunity for change.
  • Jason notes the danger when a rigid, box-checking approach feels like harassment.

    “Sometimes rigidly following a process intended to follow the law can create a situation open to legal scrutiny... the person starts to feel bullied…” — Jason (11:19)

  • The hosts urge managers to transparently communicate the stakes and choices available.

5. Emotional Costs & Supporting the Employee

• Acknowledging Discomfort (13:09 – 16:52):
  • It’s normal and appropriate for the situation to be tense for everyone involved.
  • “Accepting that this is going to be tense and maybe even giving voice to that…” — Jason (13:09)
  • Managers can care personally by acknowledging negative emotions but should also help the report see where their strengths might be put to better use elsewhere.

6. The Purpose and Benefits of an Informal PIP

• Clarifying the Value (17:42 – 23:08):
  • Jason explains how the informal stage ensures other leaders agree with the manager’s assessment and allows the report a chance to recover before formal consequences hit.
  • “The biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has happened…” — Kim (21:35)
  • Documenting performance and feedback protects all parties and avoids ambiguity or bias.

7. Communication Tactics in Difficult Conversations

• How to Navigate Pushback and Defensiveness (25:02 – 28:18):
  • Kim offers scripts for direct yet compassionate feedback:

    “I want you to notice the same pattern I am noticing. I’m going to give you five examples of this problem and I do not want to be interrupted…” — Kim (25:02)

  • Emphasize performance over argument:

    “…they can perform their way out of this situation, but they cannot argue their way out.” — Kim (26:37)

  • Jason empathizes: “You do feel caught between… you’re following orders without necessarily fully understanding why…” (26:37)

8. Self-Preparation for Managers

• Tools for Managing Your Mindset (28:18 – 30:39):
  • Kim suggests before a tough meeting, reflect on a job you were bad at to build empathy.
  • Imagine someone you love before walking in, as a reminder to stay humane.

9. Interfacing with HR and Your Own Manager

• Clarify What You Can Say (32:18 – 33:27):
  • “What am I being restricted from saying in these conversations and what am I allowed to say? Here’s what I’d like to say…” — Jason (32:18)
  • Get support from HR or your manager during tough meetings; there’s no shame in asking for backup.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On PIPs and Clarity:

  “Kind is clear.” — Kim Scott (09:45)

• On Empathy for Managers:

  “These are the things that we did after we made all the mistakes.” — Jason Rosoff (26:37)

• On Treating People with Dignity:

  “…this person is a wonderful human being, as all human beings are, but this is not the right job for this person. And part of your job as a manager is to be crystal clear with people when they’re in the wrong job so they can go find the right job.” — Kim Scott (30:39)

Time-Stamped Guide to Key Segments

• Listener Letter & Context – 01:08 – 03:28
• Kim’s Critique of Manager Handoffs – 03:51 – 04:39
• Are PIPs Disingenuous? – 06:40 – 10:20
• HR’s Role & Process as Safeguard – 11:19 – 13:09
• How to Be Direct and Care Personally – 14:51 – 16:52
• Value of Informal PIPs – 17:42 – 23:08
• Direct Scripts for Difficult Feedback – 25:02 – 26:37
• Empathy and Self-Preparation for Manager – 28:18 – 30:39
• Checking with HR on Conversation Boundaries – 32:18 – 33:27
• Use of Support for Hard Meetings – 33:27 – 34:58
• Radical Candor Checklist (Tips Recap) – 35:13 – 38:17
• How to Give Upward Feedback to Your Manager – 38:25 – 39:37

Radical Candor Checklist (Practical Tips)

• Tip 1:
  Use the PIP as a real chance for growth, not just a path to termination. Emphasize compassionate, clear communication and help your report see the bigger picture for their career (35:40).

• Tip 2:
  If you feel the process is only about managing out, consult with HR about alternative roles or paths for your report that play to their strengths. Use these check-ins to clarify how transparent you can be (37:03).

• Tip 3:
  Don’t lead people on—acknowledge the gap in performance and support them in proactive next steps. Use language like:

  “I want to be honest with you; we've been working on these performance expectations for a while…” (38:17)

Advice for the Letter Writer: Addressing Your Manager

• Don’t confront with blame. Instead, seek understanding:

  “Why did you decide to have me manage this PIP instead of handling it yourself before my promotion? I felt like I was a little bit thrown into the deep end of management in my first role.” — Kim (38:25)

• Consider a post-mortem with your manager once the process is over to extract lessons for future transitions.

Recap & Final Takeaways

• Managing out is always emotionally taxing; the Radical Candor approach demands both clarity and care.
• The PIP, when handled well, benefits the employee, manager, and organization by clarifying expectations and maintaining fairness.
• Always ask HR for specific do’s and don’ts in these fraught conversations.
• Seek support and don’t hesitate to involve your manager or HR in tough meetings.
• Keep treating the person with humanity and dignity, focusing on performance, not personal worth.

Memorable Sign-off:
"Kind is clear." — Kim Scott

For more resources, visit radicalcandor.com/podcast