Robert Glaser (2:24)

I'm barely standing but I've been doing some things to counterbalance it. My daughter told me she was running her first 10k at school and so I said, you know what, I'll join you on that. And so it's forced me to run and so I've been trying to build up stamina in reserve over the last month.

Kim Scott (2:39)

Amazing. So can you share the TLDOO read? Tell us a little bit about the book? I'm going to let you summarize and then we'll jump into specific questions. It's such a great book. Everyone should go out and buy 10 copies today.

Robert Glaser (2:54)

Exactly. Thank you. So the book is actually a parable. And the way it came about was actually went to a leadership training about 13 years ago that sort of changed my life. And the first couple days were that about, hey, you got to figure out what you value and understand that because that's how you're going to show up as an authentic leader. And I was totally on board with that, except they did not tell us how to figure out our core values. And so I went and spent the next three months looking through some horrible exercises online and a whole bunch of things and figured out what I felt were sort of actionable. Core values made a ton of changes in my life and my business and ended up taking that process back to our company and training leaders on it and seeing a great results from it. And when I wrote Elevate in that book, I talked about, hey, you should figure out your core values. And people were like, yeah, I should. How do I do it? And I was like, well, I don't really have anything to send you. Like, we have this thing. And so I turn it into this course, all that material. A couple thousand people took it. I got all these notes, like, this is really helping me, all this stuff. And so I wanted to turn it into a book. But I had this vision of this book at Barnes and Nobles and walking down the aisle, it's such a clear vision. And it's called like On Values. And no one wants to buy it or read it because they're like, what? I don't even know what this is sort of about. But I was like, I feel like if I could explain this through story. And I'm a huge fan of Pat Lincioni's work who read this for me and actually helped come up with a title. I was like, and my daughter, the same one who's doing the 10k, kind of challenged me one time, you should write a fiction book, because all you do is nonfiction and always challenging her. And at some point it all came together. I was like, maybe I could show this, not tell this. And so that's the approach I tried to take. And a lot of people who have read it before it came out, even though it's about this character, Jamie, they've told me a scene with their partner or a scene with their boss, it totally reflected for them something personally in their own life.

Kim Scott (4:47)

I love that. I'm going to give you a true confession right now. So when I was back working at Apple and we were designing managing at Apple, somebody wanted to start with values and they were going to give like 20 minutes for everybody and your eyes.

Robert Glaser (5:03)

Are rolling and like, I don't know.

Kim Scott (5:05)

I was like, no, we're not like, like, like, you know, I think values are really important. But if you say write down your core values in 20 minutes, you're not giving it the space that it deserves. I love that you're, and I love that you're giving it the space that it deserves. And I love that you're using fiction because I agree fiction is great.

Robert Glaser (5:28)

And I think if, if I said again the topic of do you understand your personal core values and how to make better decisions, people go like, yeah, yeah, like integrity and family. And then if you read the book, you can understand why that doesn't work. But if I try to make that case to you cold, it's pretty hard. So I think it's, it's introducing people to the topic who wouldn't have considered it and family integrity are two of my like most heard but least helpful values that I like to give examples of.

Kim Scott (5:58)

Yeah, I love that. So why do core values? Why start with values? Let's start at the beginning.

Robert Glaser (6:05)

Yeah. So again, I was one of those people who I think was values oriented and couldn't articulate them though. I think a lot of us know we are values driven. We know when they're violated. It's like when you hit the electric fence, you feel the electric fence. And I always say the goal is to like see the signs that say don't go here and go here instead. And I just think we can make a lot of better decisions. And I, when I think of kind of Jim Collins 5 level of leadership and the level 5, like that's deep self awareness. And what I have seen is we all show up. You can have any sort of leadership doctrine you want as an organization, but you can't tell people how they are going to lead specifically. And I think most of us lead from our values whether we realize it or not. And it's a difference of it being an asset or an Achilles heel. And I have seen numerous cases of both. And I just don't think as a 30 or 40 or 50 year old in the work, this stuff is pretty baked in at this point in our lives and it comes from deep experiences early on in life. And I have now, I've done this with hundreds of people and thousands, like 99% come from something you are trying to double down from that was really important in your childhood or something that you are trying to run 180 degrees from the other away from. But. But pain and passion lie close together. So this is not about going back and blaming or whatever, but when you can connect it to something and realize, oh, this is important to me. And this, like, if I'm a person for whom trust is really important, I have probably had a violation of trust in my life. And if I ask people, I'll say, I don't want to know what it is. But you're talking about all this trust, and you have a violation of trust and they turn white or they have like a tear, like, almost every time.

Kim Scott (7:45)

Yeah.

Robert Glaser (7:45)

And so just understand, this is how you operate with your friends and as a leader, and you show up. But here's the crazy thing, Kim. Like, I've seen leaders who operate who have this trust thing, but who don't know it. They just sort people into, can I trust them or not trust them in the workplace. And they drive HR crazy. And the people are like, I'm in jail without a key, and I don't know why. And that's very. That's very different from someone who would go in and say, hey, Kim and Jason, you're joining my team. My name's Bob or Robert or wherever I want to be. And, you know, trust is really important to me because, again, for this person, like, it is. And so if you show up late to meetings and if you miss a deadline and if I can't find you in an afternoon, like, these are all things that break trust. And just know once it's broken with me, it's really hard to get back. So if you see me, if I feel distant, I probably am. And you should come have a conversation. Those are different worlds with the same information.

Kim Scott (8:37)

Yeah. And I would almost say what you're talking about is not so much trust as it is reliability. And so that's why I think taking the time to write down these and define what you mean. Like, for me, trust is about, are you going to tell me the truth? As opposed. You know.

Robert Glaser (8:53)

Right. Then this is why integrity, like, what's below it on an interview with a guy last week, and he. Which I can do with you, which we start to how to get to one like that, because what's the thing that drives you crazy? And he was like, I hate people that think that they're better than other people. Like, I just deeply. And he told me this story when he was 10 years old and. And the neighbor was talking to his son and saying, if you don't work hard, you're going to end up like that contractor. And so his whole life is horizontal, his organization's horizontal. Everything he does, everyone is on the same plane. It was fascinating when he's like, oh my God, I didn't even realize I had orchestrated all of this stuff around. No one is better than anyone else.

Kim Scott (9:31)

Yeah. And some people don't believe that. I mean, there are, I think, the top down, elitist crowd in management.

Robert Glaser (9:39)

Right. There are some people who do. Who do believe. Yes. That there are people who are better than others.

Kim Scott (9:44)

Sorry, Jason, you were going to say something.

Jason Rosoff (9:46)

I'm very curious about the inverse test. So I want to hear more about that because I do think that it is really challenging, something that I've encountered over and over again since this idea of values, especially since the conversation about culture in the workplace has become really commonplace. The word values gets used a lot like ad nauseam. And I think that people are quite confused about it. So the reason I was drawn to that term is I often think that when we're challenged to understand or define something like that, defining its inverse can be really valuable. So maybe now's a good time to tell us just a little bit more about the inverse test.

Robert Glaser (10:26)

So we'll test it with each of you. Because I've had some fascinating conversations when I've done this. And it's funny because the visceral reaction tells me I'm on the right page even more than what they're saying. But. But to what you were saying, I think that core values in the workplace are the defining aspect of a culture. I also agree with you that 98% of companies are full of crap. We'll go with I'm not sure what this podcast is rated.

Kim Scott (10:48)

Yeah, you can say anything about our.

Robert Glaser (10:50)

Podcast, you know, because they're not. It's on the wall and they're not reinforcing it with behaviors or hiring or otherwise. So most organizations have something they're rewarding whether it's the thing that's on the wall or not.

Kim Scott (11:02)

But.

Robert Glaser (11:02)

But then there's the individual and their personal values. You're trying to find some concentric circles there. But the inverse test would say that if the definition. When I talk about a core value, maybe just even defining it is sort of a non negotiable principle that guides your behavior and decision So I think it's intrinsic. It's not aspirational. It reflects who you are and probably who you've always been. It's consistent and then shows up in all areas of work, life, and relationships, which is why family doesn't really work as a core value. Because if I get below what people mean for family, some people mean, like, close group of people, and other mean, like, always show up. And there's a whole bunch of different definitions. And then they're clarifying. They help you make better choices. So generally, when a core value is violated, it feels horrible. And that's one of the things I use in my validator to test if you're on the right thing. We test the op. We do the opposite test. But often I can find people's dominant core value by starting with the opposite test. So I would be like, jason, like, tell me. And most people. It's funny, I don't want to know the actual thing, but you know, the incident. Most people have an exact. In their mind. So tell me, like a type of person or an interaction or something that just makes your behavior. That just makes your blood boil. Like, what does that look like?

Jason Rosoff (12:20)

Yeah, the thing that's coming to mind. And I don't know if this would be for all time, but I have found myself to be really intolerant lately of people who clearly show no consideration for others. So this happens in small ways and big ways. A small way that this happens is like, someone is driving and they're on their phone or looking down or doing something else, and then they do something crazy that puts somebody else at risk. And I find myself really judging that person. And I know that something could be going on for that person. But there's something visceral in my reaction of just like, you just don't care. Like, you don't care about anybody else. You're totally focused on yourself, and you don't care what happens. That's. I would say that's like a smaller example.

Robert Glaser (13:05)

See how Jason moved from, like, talking about it lightly to, he can't even hide his anger and his judgment. And again, it's not. I understand what you're saying. We all hate to judge, but when a value is violated, we just. We do. Like. Cause it is the opposite. So you probably have some value that's oriented around care and consideration. And just watching people who do don't think about how they show up in the world or they don't care about the reaction. Like, it just. And look, if we spent the time. And I'd say like, let's go. But like, you know, usually it comes from one route. I said, so you either were given care and consideration or there was someone in your life who, who just did not show that. And so you as a little kid were like, I will never be that person. Right. In almost all situations people tell me, yep, I can clearly identify like, which one of those it is.

Jason Rosoff (13:54)

Yeah, for me it's definitely luckily the former, which is like, I think I was shown a lot of care and consideration and similar to the thing about that was rooted in my family experience. I know for other people it might come from something else, but like in my family care and consideration were incredibly important and demonstrating it through action was important.

Robert Glaser (14:13)

Right. And it was reinforced that people that don't do that, like we don't, you know, we don't. People that don't do that aren't aligned with our values probably. I, it's funny, I, I was on with a well known podcast hosted, hasn't been released yet, but he had a very similar one to, to an employee that I had. So she, you know, her core value was you have to come with evidence, like and, and this has showed up at how she managed. Like, you must bring data and facts and whatever to me. And when we got into it like quickly, like her mom was basically a conspiracy theorist and told her all of this stuff when she was a child that then she got older and realized wasn't true at all. So we talked about how this shows up as a manager, she needs to be able to communicate to her team. Like, look, you got to come to me not with wild theories, but you got to come with backup. And this host was basically saying the same thing inadvertently when I asked him for the opposite. He told this story that was so, like lit up and he got so animated. And when we unpacked it, it was actually three of his core values. This one interaction was the opposite of three, which was why he got so. And he remembered it like it was yesterday. This person dropped into a conversation, didn't listen at all and stated their authority and just stomped all over the other person. Basically like credibility was one of his core values. And it was an almost identical story. I think he had a parent who was very bullying and authoritative and would say stuff. And, and as he got older, he realized most of that stuff wasn't true. But it was said with such conviction that people believe them. And so to this day, his whole career is about like listening to people and credible. It's just super interesting how these things all connect.

Kim Scott (15:55)

So interesting.

Jason Rosoff (15:58)

Kim. I don't think Kim should get to get to dodge the.

Robert Glaser (16:01)

All right, well, Kim, what's your. Without again, not being political correct. And you saw Jason. He's tried to start politically correct.

Jason Rosoff (16:06)

I did, I did.

Robert Glaser (16:07)

He got into that. Really pisses me off. Right. Like, sort of.

Kim Scott (16:10)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think, I think, well, Jason is very measured and also very.

Robert Glaser (16:18)

Are you Midwestern Jason?

Kim Scott (16:19)

He's also very passionate. New Yorker.

Jason Rosoff (16:22)

I'm a New Yorker. Yeah. Upstate.

Robert Glaser (16:25)

Upstate, yeah. Okay, that makes sense.

Kim Scott (16:26)

So I'm a Southerner, and I think the thing that really erodes trust with me most quickly is when people tell me one thing that I can tell.

Robert Glaser (16:36)

Yeah.

Kim Scott (16:37)

They don't really believe that thing. Or they're trying, you know, they're trying to be nice, but they're actually not being so nice. Like, there's that, there's that joke about the south where somebody is got. This woman gets sent to finishing school and she's taught to say, how nice. But what she really means is f you. And when I hear that, when I, when I can tell someone is thinking F you, but really trying to, you know what, manipulate me or it just.

Robert Glaser (17:09)

I, I, it Manipulative insecurity.

Kim Scott (17:12)

Yeah, Kim, you're of insincerity. Yeah.

Robert Glaser (17:15)

It's so funny. Someone told me and almost after the book launches, someone asked me, like, I think I'll have enough general data as people send me their values to start building some kind of. I think these live within, you know, a certain amount of zones. But someone told me almost identical story that they grew up in the Midwest and actually they preferred. They thought the he. He is funny. He goes, I have a core value of kindness, but for me, I actually have learned to feel like the New Yorker who yells at me and tells me where the thing is, is more kind than I grew up with. All this passive aggressiveness that I was told was kind, but it wasn't.

Kim Scott (17:50)

It's not right.

Robert Glaser (17:51)

Look, you're having the same. And he told me this such vivid story that reminds me of this. And so he's like, yeah, for me, it's kindness, but it's not the fake kindness I was told about the real kindness. It's like, get me to the answer. The guy who. He said to me, the guy who goes, it's right over there, stupid. Let me walk you over there. He goes, I like that better than the person who goes home and tells someone they did a good deed all day by, you know, right now, like is a very similar thing to this person, it's almost cultural. It's almost an identical story.

Kim Scott (18:21)

Yeah. Yeah. I love it. And I love that you're pushing people to tell stories and to find where that emotion comes from. Because, like, we were talking earlier about trust, and somebody who I worked closely with once told me they couldn't trust me. And for me, this was such an insult, because in my mind, I had to have done something that, like, I would have had to tell them a lie, or I would have had to do something that was out of integrity for me to earn their distrust. And it took me a long time to realize she couldn't trust me because of my race. And she had been so badly mistreated in the past. And it was very hard for me to come to grips with that. But I realized, like, even the word trust, we need to, like, double click on it and understand why it's relatively easy for me to give trust and to expect it. Because I grew up in a high trust environment. Despite all the manipulative insincerity, like, overall.

Robert Glaser (19:28)

There were probably prevailing factors there. One of them that you probably do take with you is this notion of. It's probably like, benefit of the doubt. Right? There's some combination of benefit with a doubt. But also, don't be giving people the benefit of doubt is a good thing. Being falsely, like, like, is. Is. Is. Is different. So, yeah, that. That. That's interesting.

Kim Scott (19:52)

But it's easy for me to. To sort of give trust because usually I haven't. You know, I've been treated very well on average by other people in my life. If I hadn't been, it would be much harder for me to give trust.

Robert Glaser (20:05)

Yeah. And this is why I say that the one word core values don't work. Like, people say integrity. I've got 10 different definitions of integrity. They say family. I want to know, because if you tell me how you show up for your family, then I'll tell you, like, how you probably show up for your friends and your employees. And in fact, someone who says family, they mean. Because I always joke around, I'm like, do you mean family like, some people believe? Like, okay, we just ignore everything the drunk uncle's doing, right? Because my family is very important to me. But I don't believe you get a free pass because you're family. So that's not my. That's not my definition of family. But if it means, like, you. You should always be there, then that's actually if you're running around like crazy and you're someone for whom the Core value is always show up and your friend's dad dies and you're like, should I go to the funeral? I shouldn't go to the funeral. You should go to the funeral because you're going to really be upset with yourself if you miss an opportunity to be there.

Kim Scott (21:00)

Yeah, yeah. And that means you're not showing up for all the other random, smaller, less important things. That's the irony of some of these core values. Like for a long time I would feel guilty when people would reach out and say, do you have just 15 minutes to talk? And I said yes to so many of these things and I was not showing up for my children. And then that was what gave me the, you know, the spine to say, no, I don't have. 15 minutes is a big ask, actually, and I don't have it, unfortunately.

Robert Glaser (21:30)

Yeah, first things first. When I asked one person really what his definition of family was and we got into it, he was like, your words need to match your actions. And actually one of his biggest regrets was that in a part of his career he had said his marriage was a priority and he had clearly not made it a priority. And so like that was a place where he was out of alignment with his values. But that's a very different than family. Then your words and your action. Like that's a. I know what to do with your words need to match your actions, right?

Kim Scott (22:01)

Yeah.

Robert Glaser (22:01)

And I know what to do with that in the workplace and otherwise.

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Jason Rosoff (23:23)

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Jason Rosoff (23:30)

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Robert Glaser (23:34)

I can see why they call it smart.

Jason Rosoff (23:36)

Learn more@amazonbusiness.com we've zoomed way in and I want to give people the opportunity to understand the lay of the land a little bit. So can we zoom out for a second and just talk through at a high level like how your, the discovery framework, like how it works conceptually?

Robert Glaser (23:59)

Yeah, yeah. So you can, you'll watch the character in the book go through this. But there are these six questions that I've kind of come up with that are these behavioral based questions that are designed to kind of pull from the highlights and lowlights of your life. And we'll, we'll go through a few of them but people are always struggling to write them down. So I just put them@robert glaser.com 6s I X you can just see the questions so that we don't have to make sure we get into every one. So if you answer all of these on different pieces of paper and start to look across them and one of them is one of these anti ones. I'll give you an example. You will start to see some themes and that's sort of the first collection phase. So like one of the questions is, is that opposite? Like one. It's like, hey, what is, what is it about qualities and other people that you really kind of struggle with? And then you'll be able to match that up against some of the positives. One of them is, you know, what professional roles or settings did you do your best work? I don't want to hear like working for Kim. I want to hear like, oh, it was a small team where I had autonomy and I had a great boss that was Kim. Like, what were the dynamics of that? And then again, what work environments were you super frustrated? And we look at the same things personally. And then there's even one like, what would you want said about you in your eulogy? I think that really focuses it down for people on like, how do they want to be described? And so you answer these questions, you start to isolate the themes that come up across all of them and then you run it through this kind of validation step that I have for which no one word core value would survive. So, and we can, we can, we can talk through that and sort of so people can understand how that works.

Kim Scott (25:42)

I love that it's Going to help people avoid what I call the credo problem.

Robert Glaser (25:48)

Yes.

Kim Scott (25:48)

Where you write a bunch of, I mean, who's going to write like integrity doesn't matter to me, you know?

Robert Glaser (25:55)

Right.

Kim Scott (25:56)

Maybe there's someone out there. Yeah, maybe someone out there will write that review.

Robert Glaser (26:01)

Right. Like companies, each one of your core values should be differentiated and all four or three should not be the same as someone else's. Right. You're going to have kind of a different. So the four questions in this kind of core validator, the first two are about getting the right theme because we want the right theme before the right label. I know people like to get a clever name, but the first thing is could you use the theme to make a decision past or present? To me, that's the ultimate value of a value. Could I use it to make a decision? So when I did this, does it.

Kim Scott (26:32)

Help me know to do X or Y?

Robert Glaser (26:34)

Right. So when I did this, I had lots of words around independence and freedom and did it by myself. And so when I looked at this theme, yes, I can make a decision around something that's independent or dependent. I ended up with self reliance in the end. But we'll, we'll, we'll, I'll explain that. So then the second to test am I on the right track? Is does the opposite of it strike a nerve? We talked before. The opposite of self reliant for me. Like people who are super dependent and even say needy, like drives me crazy. I even, I joke, I joke a lot with my wife and daughter around. Like, even when they're, they both don't like to look for anything. And I always say, you guys are great looking but horrible lookers. And when they ask, when they can't find something and they ask me within 10 seconds of not being able to find it to help them, I'm like, I'm happy to help you, but you should, you lost it. So you should look for it for a minute first. Like it would never, it would never occur to me to ask someone to look for my thing before I looked for it. Like, that's just sort of my brain. So yes, the anti value test. And then when you get down to okay, I have the right theme, it's. Is it a phrase rather than a word? Because it needs to kind of locked in like give everyone a chance. Or here's a great one. One of our employees had include all perspectives. I know exactly what work to give that person and I know what work they would hate doing. Right.

Kim Scott (27:53)

Yeah.

Robert Glaser (27:53)

Go make a unilateral Decision without talking to anyone, like, yeah, no, no, no, thank you. And then the last step is just, could I objectively rate myself on it? Which I think all company core values should meet that test too. Can I say that I did it or didn't do it? If you run it against those four things, you will come up with something that is very action oriented and helps you with decision making.

Kim Scott (28:16)

I love that. I love that so much. And it's so, like. I remember there was one point in my career where I was asked to do something that I considered to be unethical, and I said no. And then my boss was asked to do the same thing. It was gonna. It was gonna make me a lot of money and cost the company money. It was like, sign up for this ad program, spend $10,000 of the company's money, and you'll get some friends and family stock. I was like, I don't know what the law is, but that should be illegal if it's not. And then my. And then. And then it is. Now, I know it's a corporate opportunity and it is illegal, but it just kind of felt wrong. So I said no. And that's like, part of my core value. But then my boss was asked to do the same thing, and he said yes. And I felt. I did not feel like I had done the right thing. I felt lazy. I felt like somehow I was not playing the game right, you know? And I think if I had gone through your process, I would have felt good. I still would have done the right thing, but I would have felt good about having done the right.

Robert Glaser (29:19)

You just described the electric fence. You kind of knew it was there. Yeah, but if you were able to say, I am not doing that because advice violates my value of X. But you point out this is really important point that you make. Making a decision in line with your core values usually costs you something, and it costs you something in the short term.

Kim Scott (29:38)

It cost me, I can tell you, $200,000. That's exactly what it cost me.

Robert Glaser (29:42)

But it probably maybe saved you jail or saved you whatever. And it's really hard in our world today when everyone's with social media and they crowd and they run in. I always say you get no credit when your core value is the boat, and the water and the boat are going in the same direction. You get credit when the boat is uphill.

Kim Scott (30:00)

And I think by writing it down and by saying, I did this because this is my value and I'm not going to violate it, then when it costs you or when people say you should have done something different, you can just take a deep breath and say, wrong. You know, I did it because maybe.

Robert Glaser (30:18)

Your value is do the right thing or something like that, or do what you know is right. And you're like, clearly, whatever they're telling me, I just know that this is wrong. Like, you know, and. And so I have. This feels totally good to me. Again, had you. Had you made that $200,000, right, and then maybe there was a raid. I mean, your career might have gone very differently, Right?

Kim Scott (30:39)

I mean, he got away with it, and I suspect I would have, too. But what wouldn't have happened is what mattered much more, which is I would be looking back now and saying, oh, my gosh, I violated my own integrity, my own definition of integrity. And that. I think losing that sense of who you are is something that none of us can afford to lose.

Robert Glaser (31:01)

No, we can. We can. People ask this a lot like you can, particularly in work environments. Two things happen when you're in an environment or with a boss or where there's real conflict of values. One, it kind of feels like you're being hammered every day. Like, you're kind of going against, like, just feels terrible, like you're being walking up to a punching bag every day. But the other is probably more of what you're talking about, where you actually suppress the. Knowingly suppress those values so you can get through whatever you need to get through. And then there tends to be some huge explosion or guilt later on for having you subjugate them so that you can do what you need to do to lie to yourself. And then it kind of explodes at a later point. And in a blowout or guilt or regret or something like that, the one.

Kim Scott (31:50)

Thing none of us can afford to lose is ourselves, you know, and you can't put too high a price on yourself, you know?

Robert Glaser (31:58)

No. And look, you lurk with a lot of leaders. And what I. What I did as an early leader, right as I walked into this work, I think, which is very common, is I took all the best practices of the leaders that I liked, and I took the opposite of the leaders that I really didn't like. And that's what I started doing. Yeah, not really me. Worked better for her than me him. Like, this is a little bit like giving people permission to, like, again, lead from themselves. And I've had a lot of companies, I said, here's our standard for leaders and behaviors, and that's all great, but we are all going to lead differently. And I think it is Those authentic leaders that are super comfortable with who they are, that ultimately are those level five leaders 100%.

Kim Scott (32:45)

I mean, it's one of the problems with all these books, the five things that these 12 different leaders do every day, I was like, that's not going to help. None of those five things do. I do. And I don't want to do those things.

Robert Glaser (32:55)

In fact, and all of those books I've learned, all of those books suffer from. What's that bias called? The survivorship bias, you know, because they don't. They don't have a control group for other people that did those same behaviors but weren't successful.

Jason Rosoff (33:11)

I'm super enjoying this conversation in part because I'm connecting more deeply to why this is a parable, which is like, I think if you said, do all of these, like, do all of these things and you will understand yourself and you will be successful, I think that is very different than seeing it in action. And to your point of using real life examples, because there's no control, you wind up with this false sense of certainty based on that real life example. But using a fictional example gives the reader a different kind of license to look for the lesson beneath the lesson. And don't worry so much about the specifics of what Jamie did, but instead focus on, does this resonate or not resonate with you? How does this, or why does this matter to you? How would this apply in your life? That I'm just admitting to myself that it's harder to do when it's a real person. Like, sometimes if I dislike that person, I'll push myself away from them and say I would do it differently. Or if I like that person or I feel some sort of, like, kinship with that person, I'll say I'm attracted to that, therefore I will do something like that. But with a fictional character, you have poor license. Right. You're like, this is made up. And so now I can relate this to myself in whatever way feels best to me.

Robert Glaser (34:24)

Yeah. And a nonfiction book probably wouldn't have had a character, would have just said, hey, here's the framework. And again, I just had these, like, nightmares of, like, a book that no one would read because I believe so deeply in this stuff. But until we have this 10 minute conversation or until I can show it to you, you're assuming it's the 99% of the bullshit that you see on the walls and otherwise. So the book does the same thing as this conversation, which it's like, oh, this is real. And I've had these Conversations. And I've had this boss and, and I've had this thought about my partner, like, are we the right fit for each other? Interestingly, the one that I think a lot of people forget the most about is their community or the communities they choose to operate in. Because it's really hard to like be in an environment that rewards, you know, let's say you are that person. Include all perspectives. Right. And you like talking to people and you have curiosity and you live in one of these towns where it's like in a lot you, you like last election, you have to have a Harris or a Trump sign. Like there's not even an in between. And you're like, this is just not me. Like this is not. Or health is a priority. And the people here, the main form of socialization is going to the bar five nights a week. So to my example, before I'm either going to opt out of that and probably feel really bad, or I'm going to go to the bar and then also feel really bad. If health is the most important thing in my life, I probably want to live in Park City, you know, or someplace where all the socialization is around hiking or biking or something else.

Kim Scott (35:55)

Yeah, yeah, love that. Love that. Another thing that I love about your book are the sort of the big three life decisions that you write about. Can you tell us a little bit about what, what are, what are the big three that you describe?

Robert Glaser (36:11)

Yeah.

Kim Scott (36:11)

And why do your values matter? How can your values help you to make better?

Robert Glaser (36:17)

Yeah.

Kim Scott (36:18)

So if three life decisions, if, if.

Robert Glaser (36:20)

A good core values are the ultimate decision making rubric, the big three are the ultimate decisions. And I actually think you have very little chance of success if you don't have core values alignment. And those are either your chosen vocation or your place of work. For some people it's the right work versus the right place. Second is their partner and third, we just talking about is, is their community. And look, I didn't understand. I always say my wife and I are very different people, different personalities, different even activities. And I used to think of, oh, is that a, you know that a problem? I came to realize we're always in alignment on the big things. Like it's like that's never. I think a lot of people have the opposite. They have some surface thing, but they are not in alignment on the big things to the extent of we just talked about like how deep these are. So imagine your relationship and these things come and I heard these stories. So imagine one person, you know, grew up with a Parent that was told they had a year to live and ended up living seven years. And it was just this torp. So they are about live for today. Right. And this other person grew up in an environment where their parents spent everything and never planned for tomorrow. And they just, they became. It's all about saving and long term planning. These people are now married. This one wants to constantly think about the future and this one doesn't want to think past today. You can probably get around that if that's one point of friction. But imagine we picked three other values that looked like that in that relationship. That's going to be really, really hard. In fact, in a leadership development program, I was helping someone figure out their core values. We figured them out. She took a big sigh and I was like, what? And she's like, I just realized, and I knew she was going through a divorce that my ex is the opposite of two of these things. And I'm like. And I was like, I could, I can see that that would be hard. Like that's, that is, that is hard. If you are a generous oriented person and they are a self oriented person. Again, we can dance around a couple of these things, but imagine two opposite magnets and these are the. And you have to make the decisions about where you live and the values for your kids and how you spend your money. And your orientation is opposite on everything. It. It's really hard.

Kim Scott (38:35)

Yeah, it's really funny. I mean, these are not values exactly. But I didn't get married until I was 40, almost 39, and I couldn't understand why I was single. You know, like, I'm not such a bad person. And I was, I would say to myself, why is this so hard? I'm just looking for someone who is funny, smart and decent. And when I was 39, I thought I have those things in the wrong order. Like decent needs to be first.

Robert Glaser (39:06)

As soon as you said that, I was thinking a tie to your other value.

Kim Scott (39:09)

Like, dude, oh yeah, I was dating some and.

Robert Glaser (39:14)

But they were funny.

Kim Scott (39:15)

Yeah, they were very funny. They were very entertaining. But yeah, so, so it's really, it is so useful to write down like, what are your values and also what are you looking for in others? And maybe they're slightly different things.

Robert Glaser (39:31)

Yeah. And again, things aren't going to be perfect. You're not going to be perfect with a company. You're not going to be clones. But there's things that are more compatible than others. In fact, a company that takes core values seriously usually will come up with behavioral based Interview questions for their core values. Okay, Kim, like we have own it. Tell me about a time when you screwed something up at a last company and how did you own it? And you will either tell me a story where you have humility and you made a lot of mistakes and you learned from them, or you would tell me a story unwillingly where everyone else was at fault but you. Right. And that will tell you, well, you can almost think in dating. Like, if you knew this, this would be a pretty good thing to figure out some behavioral based questions around. Like, like, were you ever not decent to anyone, you know, in the past? And then they tell you a story that you're like, okay, I can't recover from that.

Kim Scott (40:18)

And what about your job? Like, how do you use your values to figure out what. What job? Yeah, so I think company to join.

Robert Glaser (40:26)

So I think there's vocation and job. Right. So. So it might really help you figure out the type. For a lot of people, they're like, so if I figure out that what my values are like and they're not aligned, I say, well, if you find your company, maybe not even the values that are on the wall, but the values they're living are diametrically opposed to your values, then yes, you probably quit, but you don't need the Jerry Maguire moment. I think just deciding to quit and knowing that you made that consciously and then working towards that will help you. In fact, you may have a value that says, I can't quit and put my family at risk because I'm about providing. Right. But then I think there's some other stuff too where you might say, even within that job, again you realize you're the include all perspectives person. I'm going to. I realize I like this type of work. Maybe I'm in marketing and I'm going to ask to be on like the customer satisfaction team. Because what I love doing is going and like figuring out trends from other people and listening to people and getting feedback. So it may help you identify maybe again you're in the wrong type of work or the types of things that you want to do, or next time your boss asked you to do something and you're like, oh, I know why I don't want to do this. Like, I'm very clear now, like, this is an undecent thing they're asking me to do. I don't want to go scream at someone like that. You at least have the words to kind of figure out maybe how to do that. I think for a lot of people, what they're trying to do is find companies and vocations and organizations where there's values compatibility. It's not like a perfect. It's never going to be a perfect fit but I think there's compatibility.

Kim Scott (42:01)

Yeah And I think also sometimes what I really wanted to do from the time I was in high school is be a novelist but I could not support myself with my novel. And so I remember coming to a place where I realized when I was working at Google what I really care about in writing a novel is thinking about how to create environments where people can flourish. I can put that interest into this job which is going to hopefully allow me to write that novel at some one fine day.

Robert Glaser (42:35)

Yeah that is probably if I look across your work it's probably a theme around that right guessing radical candor and decent have I surprising there's a connection in there other half hour to dig into that. I had sent me a note who said they did the exercise and they realized that actually they had a passion for both contributing and education specifically that they hadn't sort of realized. And while they didn't quit their job and there was an opening for the school board that came up and they never would have thought of running it when they saw it they were like oh I'm going to do that. And so joining that school board had kind of filled. They were. It was giving them some of that in their, in their life. So yeah it's not that you're going to wholesale you know go change all of this stuff tomorrow but I think there are a lot of tweaks. It's funny yeah that the there's something with it clearly on the decency like and being a good human and and that radical candor which is a. It's funny and you said before also that it's, it's you like the direct. The kindness is the directness you know not the dancing around it.

Kim Scott (43:36)

Well I could talk to you all day but I want to make sure that we leave time for you to share with us your personal core values. You have gone through this exercise.

Robert Glaser (43:46)

If I don't have these by now then I need so mine are my dominant core value and why I'm here today is find a better way and share it. And I think the share it piece is kind of a different. Some people like to find a better way and keep it to themselves. Health and vitality, self reliance respectful authenticity and and long term orientation. I was giving you that self reliance example like I, I like will drive myself home from the hospital unless they Tell me that. Like, I can't. Like, that's just always been very big thing for me.

Kim Scott (44:18)

I love that. And I can understand what each of those things means and how they would drive your decisions.

Robert Glaser (44:25)

Yeah. And look, why I was so attracted to your radical candor thing was because it so directly ties to my core value of respectful authenticity. And one of the programs that we did and what my TED Talk was about our company was this whole thing around trying to eliminate two weeks notice by having people have like real and direct conversations as you get towards the end of employment that have a different way for people to leave. And I, again, I didn't realize it, but that whole whole program was about how can we be more respectful. And the only way we can do that is if people are willing to have authentic conversations around, hey, I don't know that this is working out and can we help you find something better or hey, you know, I think I don't want this job anymore. Like, can we, can we do something different?

Jason Rosoff (45:10)

I think, I don't know that self reliance is a core value for me, but when you gave the example of good looking but bad looker, I am that person also. But if I can't find it, I just assume that's my fault and I don't ask anybody for help. So I just like go on in my life without the thing that I was looking for, which is maybe like, I guess the follow up question is to like, your core values.

Robert Glaser (45:35)

Is.

Jason Rosoff (45:37)

This cost that you talk about of like really following your court? Like, I paid a cost, right? Like, yes, I just can't find that thing.

Robert Glaser (45:43)

So.

Jason Rosoff (45:43)

So I'm going to buy a new one or I'm going to live without it.

Robert Glaser (45:48)

Your core value may be don't bother others, right? Or something like that, right? It could be. It could be.

Jason Rosoff (45:56)

And I think that.

Robert Glaser (46:00)

Going back to.

Jason Rosoff (46:00)

What Kim was saying earlier is like, when you live in alignment with your core values, like paying the cost of honoring them, it doesn't feel nearly as bad as paying a cost for having one of your values violated. And I think that the power of the framework that you're offering is like giving people the opportunity to choose. And that I think is the thing that I find people struggle with the most is like if you're bouncing from moment to moment, you don't have some and you feel like things are out of alignment. It feels like there's this huge feeling of like a loss of agency that a lot of people describe. And if you don't know what you're sort of trying to get to. I think it can be really hard. So I can see how all these pieces line up, how the TED talk leads to the core values, leads to the framework.

Robert Glaser (46:52)

Look, I'm really trying to get this message to sort of 20 year olds because what I'm seeing out in the world is tons of tribalism and things that don't make sense. We love all people except those people and we hate those people. And you're like, and when you have.

Kim Scott (47:09)

Values and we're self righteous in our hatred.

Jason Rosoff (47:12)

Yes.

Robert Glaser (47:13)

When you have consistent values, you can withstand this wind in tribalism and be a little more anchored and be like, no, no, I believe this. No matter if the purple person's telling me it or the green person or like I am consistent. But with the social media with like needing to win the day and people being so afraid about losing the day, I think they are giving up something bigger. Right. I think we are falling deeply into tribalism in almost everything these days. And that if you can get grounded in your values, you can kind of withstand those wins a little bit.

Jason Rosoff (47:48)

And it feels crunchy. I think that's the point I was really trying to make is that I think people know that it's bad because it feels bad. Like if I feel good, like there's moments that feel good and then there's moments that feel really bad about it. Like when I talk to people who I think are quite far down the path of tribalistic ways of looking at the world, it's not like they're like, oh, it feels great. I'm so happy here. Like it feels terrible. I don't feel good about the things that I'm doing or the things that I'm saying. Yeah, but there isn't a way out. And so I like this as a framework. You talked about your kid who's training for the 10k. You're talking about 20 year olds needing some guidance. I wonder if there's some relationship between your life stage and why you feel like this is so important. Right. Right now I know there's much more, but you mentioned you in passing at the very beginning, you mentioned that your daughter read the book and gave you feedback on it. How are you feeling about this as a, like a thing that you're sharing not just with other people, but even with your daughter and your family?

Robert Glaser (48:50)

Yeah, no, I think those are very logical points. It's getting particular interest, I would say in pockets of kind of 20s and then 40, 50, mid career. I've sold my business. I need to think about what's next? So the story of my daughter is interesting, like, and again, I try to show up as a parent now aligned to those values and not worry about the things that aren't. So it's pretty funny. She said to me like, hey, I'm running like a 10k for the first time ever again. I like the better way. And at school and we couldn't, our kids, parents, weekends conflicted this year. So I was like, oh, well, I'll just come on a plane, I'll come down, we'll cheer you on. And actually, you know what, Like, I'll run, I'll run it with you. And so some people would be like, why are you doing that? But actually if I look down on my list, find a better way and share it, health and vitality, she's doing this herself. Self reliance, she's working. Like, I was like, oh, it checks all my things. That's why she might ask me to do something else that's actually easier. And I would be like, I don't really want to do that. But like, for me, that's how I show up best as a parent. One of the things, my dog, my wife and I, we have really pushed like that our kids be independent. They all went to overnight camp, they all had to have jobs, you know, and I enjoy when I watch them doing those things. So yeah, so I'm jumping on a plane and for 24 hours and run a 10k with her and then come home. And like, I'm psyched about that. And some other people would be like, that sounds like a huge inconvenience. But for me it's like, again, when you're doing the value stuff, it, you know, it's, it's. Well, that's no big deal. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Kim Scott (50:19)

Yeah, yeah. And you don't have to second guess yourself. You're like, I'm doing this because this is who I am. That's a good reason to do it.

Robert Glaser (50:26)

And when she called me this morning late asking me to read a paper that you should have given me yesterday, I'm like, confidently like, no, like you. You know, I was around all day yesterday and I could have looked at it for you.

Kim Scott (50:38)

Right, right. I love it, I love it. Well, hopefully she'll get you that paper earlier next time.

Robert Glaser (50:43)

She knows the deal. I edit things early in the morning, not at 10 o' clock at night. I've been consistent about that.

Kim Scott (50:49)

That's good, that's good. Well, listen, thank you so much. I know this is going to help so many people Robert, your book, I know that writing is a labor of love and especially talking about values in a way that doesn't feel too pedantic is really hard. And I think you pulled it off in this book. So congratulations to you.

Robert Glaser (51:15)

Appreciate it. And yeah, the book is out. And I always talk about like this course that I mentioned, the course I've been selling for years. Like if you buy it through launch week@compass within.com we have a little form. You get the course for free. So my goal for the next five years is just to help a million people figure this out. So I want people to do the work and if I could sell a book for free, I would. It doesn't work that well.

Kim Scott (51:38)

Yeah, it does not.

Robert Glaser (51:40)

But yeah, if you want to do that work or you want to answer those six questions, just get started and see if it helps you.

Kim Scott (51:47)

And we'll drop links to all that in the show notes so that folks know where to find the six questions, nowhere to buy the book and know how to get access to your course, which I know folks will benefit from. So thank you so much. For folks listening, you can if you want to join the Radical Canner community, we can talk about Robert's book and we can talk about values or anything else you want to talk about. Go to radicalcandor.com community and if you.

Jason Rosoff (52:18)

Want to find show notes for this episode of the show, head over to radicalcandor.com podcast. If you're a visual person, you can actually watch this podcast on both YouTube and Spotify, praising public and criticize in private. If you like what you see, please rate and review us. If you're not a subscriber, please subscribe to the podcast wherever you happen to be listening and if you have feedback for us, we'd love to hear it. So please do email us@podcastadicalcandor.com and if.

Kim Scott (52:50)

You have a management dilemma, you can send it to podcastadicalcandor.com and we will explore it on a future. Thanks everyone.

Jason Rosoff (52:58)

Take care.

Amy Sandler (52:59)

The Radical Candor podcast is based on the book Radical Be a Kick Ass Boss without losing your Humanity by Kim Scott. Episodes are written and produced by Brandy Neal with script editing by me, Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff and is hosted by me, still Amy Sandler. Nick Karisimi is our audio engineer. The Radical Candor Podcast theme music was composed by Cliff Goldmacher. Follow us on LinkedIn Radical Candor the company and visit us@radicalcandor.com.

Robert Glaser (53:37)

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