Radio Atlantic: An American Education | 2. Testing Teachers for 'Wokeness'

Release Date: September 25, 2025
Host: Hanna Rosen
Guests: Ryan Walters (OK State Superintendent), Michael (Oklahoma public school teacher), Summer Bomier (former teacher), and others

Episode Overview

This episode explores the ideological battles shaping Oklahoma's public education under State Superintendent Ryan Walters. Through an in-depth interview, the show examines Walters' push for an "ideology test" for teachers, the introduction of new politically-charged curriculum standards, and the ripple effects on teachers' professional and personal lives. The episode also highlights the stories of two Oklahoma educators—one who stays and self-censors, one who quits in protest—to illustrate the real-life consequences of the broader culture war over America's schools.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Rise of Ryan Walters and the Ideological Shift in Oklahoma Education

• Walters has rapidly reshaped education standards, inserting references to Christianity and instructing students to study 2020 election "discrepancies."
• Oklahoma Supreme Court has temporarily paused these new standards pending a lawsuit ([01:00]-[02:00]).
• Walters' stance: “No parent should send their child to school and their child have access to graphic pornography.” – Ryan Walters ([00:31])
• Efforts to bar books deemed explicit and keep "woke agendas" out of schools.

2. Walters’ Teaching Philosophy, Past vs. Present

• Walters describes his time as a history teacher as balanced and open-minded: “I'm going to give you the best education I can and I want to see you come to your own conclusion.” ([04:18]-[05:15])
• Contrasts with his current, more prescriptive approach to what should be taught — notably, strict binary gender definitions and specific historical frames ([06:41]-[07:39]).

3. The "Ideology Test" and Red State Values

• Walters defends a new test for incoming teachers intended to keep out “left wing activists... indoctrinated... by a radical state like California.” He insists, “You got to know the difference between male and female. You got to agree that you're going to teach that in our standards.” ([06:41]-[07:39])
• Claims all political agendas—especially on gender and sexuality—come exclusively from the left:
  “Absolutely. The teachers unions have run our schools... weaponized the federal government to push an agenda.” ([09:23]-[09:37])

4. The Culture War and Alleged Neutrality

• Walters asserts his vision is simply returning to “the basics,” not political:
  “Our goal is to take that political agenda out. That is what red states... have been doing.” ([08:36])
• Host Hanna Rosen challenges this, pointing out the exclusionary language and the contradiction between professed neutrality and punitive policies:
  “You define what sounds to me like a specific view as the only view, as the universal view.” ([14:41])

5. Teaching About Controversial Topics: The 2020 Election & COVID

• Walters insists on teaching “discrepancies” in the 2020 election results, positing it as necessary critical inquiry:
  “How do you teach about the 2020 election without that?... We're going to talk about COVID, we're going to talk about mail-in ballots... They can draw their own conclusion on what happened with that election.” ([15:38]-[16:33])
• When pressed on what happens if a student “doesn’t find discrepancies,” Walters avoids a direct answer, emphasizing the uniqueness of the election but not the falsity of fraud claims.
  “That's undeniable. It was a unique election.” ([17:11])

6. The "Porn Scandal" and Boardroom Politics

• Recaps a recent, highly publicized but ultimately trivial "scandal" where board members claimed to see nudity on Walters’ office TV. After investigation, it was revealed to be a random channel showing Jackie Chan's The Protector ([19:07]-[20:31]).
• Walters uses the incident to accuse political opponents of sabotage within the Board of Education ([19:31]-[20:17]).
• More troubling, the host notes, is Walters' advocacy for private schools with direct ties to ideological groups like PragerU—organizations involved in crafting the teacher ideology test ([21:03]-[21:54]).

7. Voices from the Classroom: Two Teachers, Two Choices

Michael: Staying, Self-Censoring

• Michael, a current social studies teacher, quietly objects to the new standards but stays for his students ([23:10]-[24:50]).
• Describes having to omit or hide civil rights leaders and feeling pressure to avoid any perception of being "woke":
  “I worry about getting pegged as woke or something like that, just for having certain decorations and things.” ([27:00])
• On teaching controversial material: “I'm required by law to tell you that this is what this says and then just kind of leave it at that. Because if I hesitate... one slip up means I can lose my job.” ([28:20]-[29:10])
• The emotional toll:
  “I pride myself on being an honest person... this feels like a cop out.” ([29:14])

Summer Bomier: Quitting in Protest

• Summer was pushed out after facilitating access to the Brooklyn Public Library (episode 1 context); her license was revoked ([24:12], [31:41]).
• Now unable to find work, Summer feels “suspended” and lost, her 500+ classroom books boxed up in storage:
  “If I open the boxes, it means that I’m finished. And I think that scares me… I hope it matters. I hope it makes a difference. But I don’t regret it. I just regret that I had to do it at all.” ([32:58]-[36:33])

8. The Unseen Battle: Teachers’ Everyday Dilemma

• Threat of professional ruin transforms ordinary teaching into risky territory; even common inspirational quotes become sources of anxiety (Michael, [27:00]-[27:50]).
• “Compromising my integrity a couple of times a year worth doing the job that I love.” – Michael ([21:54])

9. Ongoing Policy Changes and Where Things Stand

• Oklahoma Supreme Court has stayed the new education standards—for now ([18:00]).
• Walters continues using his office for symbolic, ideological declarations: moments of silence for Charlie Kirk and mandates for Turning Point USA chapters in schools ([37:33]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ryan Walters, on ideology and teaching:
  “Listen, you know, it’s not complicated for us here. In Oklahoma there’s two genders. There’s male and there’s female. There’s not 27. There’s not gender fluidity.” ([06:41])
• Hanna Rosen, challenging universality:
  “You define what sounds to me like a specific view as the only view, as the universal view.” ([14:41])
• Michael, on self-censorship:
  “I have a friend who gave me like a framed poster of a quote from John Lewis... I just worry about, like, getting pegged as woke or something like that, just for having certain decorations and things.” ([27:00])
• Summer Bomier, on meaning and regret:
  “If I open the boxes, it means that I’m finished… I hope it matters. I hope it makes a difference. But I don’t regret it. I just regret that I had to do it at all.” ([32:58]-[36:33])
• Michael, on integrity:
  “I pride myself on being an honest person... this feels like a cop out. And at a certain point, I’m going to have to have the conversation with myself, like, is that worth it?” ([29:14]-[29:31])

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:31 | Walters: “Pornography should not be in our schools...” | | 04:18-05:15| Walters on separating personal beliefs from teaching as a history teacher | | 06:41 | Walters explains the purpose of the ideology test for teachers | | 08:23 | Discussion on whether Red State values exclude some parents and kids | | 09:23 | Walters blames politicization exclusively on the left | | 14:41 | Host confronts Walters about exclusion and defining universal values | | 15:38 | Walters on teaching 2020 election “discrepancies” | | 19:07 | The “porn scandal” in Walters’ office explained | | 21:54 | Michael, teacher, on “compromising...integrity” to keep his job | | 27:00 | Michael discusses classroom censorship and fear of being pegged “woke” | | 32:58-36:33| Summer’s books in storage—a metaphor for educational uncertainty and loss | | 37:33 | Updates on the ongoing situation, including new policies from Walters |

Conclusion

This episode paints a vivid, nuanced picture of life in Oklahoma’s public education system at a moment of political upheaval. Through direct conversation with Ryan Walters, as well as the frontline experiences of real teachers, listeners see how national culture wars over race, gender, history, and American identity are shaping education policy—and personal lives—at the local level. The episode captures both the high-stakes political battles and their very human consequences, posing hard questions about neutrality, inclusion, and what public schools are for.

For those who haven't listened:
This episode is essential for understanding how the abstractions of the culture war play out in classrooms, shaping teachers’ lives and Oklahoma’s definition of public education. The stories, stakes, and tensions shared here are deeply relevant across America.