An American Education | 2. Testing Teachers for 'Wokeness'

Summary

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Radio Atlantic: An American Education | 2. Testing Teachers for 'Wokeness'

Release Date: September 25, 2025
Host: Hanna Rosen
Guests: Ryan Walters (OK State Superintendent), Michael (Oklahoma public school teacher), Summer Bomier (former teacher), and others

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the ideological battles shaping Oklahoma's public education under State Superintendent Ryan Walters. Through an in-depth interview, the show examines Walters' push for an "ideology test" for teachers, the introduction of new politically-charged curriculum standards, and the ripple effects on teachers' professional and personal lives. The episode also highlights the stories of two Oklahoma educators—one who stays and self-censors, one who quits in protest—to illustrate the real-life consequences of the broader culture war over America's schools.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Rise of Ryan Walters and the Ideological Shift in Oklahoma Education

• Walters has rapidly reshaped education standards, inserting references to Christianity and instructing students to study 2020 election "discrepancies."
• Oklahoma Supreme Court has temporarily paused these new standards pending a lawsuit ([01:00]-[02:00]).
• Walters' stance: “No parent should send their child to school and their child have access to graphic pornography.” – Ryan Walters ([00:31])
• Efforts to bar books deemed explicit and keep "woke agendas" out of schools.

2. Walters’ Teaching Philosophy, Past vs. Present

• Walters describes his time as a history teacher as balanced and open-minded: “I'm going to give you the best education I can and I want to see you come to your own conclusion.” ([04:18]-[05:15])
• Contrasts with his current, more prescriptive approach to what should be taught — notably, strict binary gender definitions and specific historical frames ([06:41]-[07:39]).

3. The "Ideology Test" and Red State Values

• Walters defends a new test for incoming teachers intended to keep out “left wing activists... indoctrinated... by a radical state like California.” He insists, “You got to know the difference between male and female. You got to agree that you're going to teach that in our standards.” ([06:41]-[07:39])
• Claims all political agendas—especially on gender and sexuality—come exclusively from the left:
  “Absolutely. The teachers unions have run our schools... weaponized the federal government to push an agenda.” ([09:23]-[09:37])

4. The Culture War and Alleged Neutrality

• Walters asserts his vision is simply returning to “the basics,” not political:
  “Our goal is to take that political agenda out. That is what red states... have been doing.” ([08:36])
• Host Hanna Rosen challenges this, pointing out the exclusionary language and the contradiction between professed neutrality and punitive policies:
  “You define what sounds to me like a specific view as the only view, as the universal view.” ([14:41])

5. Teaching About Controversial Topics: The 2020 Election & COVID

• Walters insists on teaching “discrepancies” in the 2020 election results, positing it as necessary critical inquiry:
  “How do you teach about the 2020 election without that?... We're going to talk about COVID, we're going to talk about mail-in ballots... They can draw their own conclusion on what happened with that election.” ([15:38]-[16:33])
• When pressed on what happens if a student “doesn’t find discrepancies,” Walters avoids a direct answer, emphasizing the uniqueness of the election but not the falsity of fraud claims.
  “That's undeniable. It was a unique election.” ([17:11])

6. The "Porn Scandal" and Boardroom Politics

• Recaps a recent, highly publicized but ultimately trivial "scandal" where board members claimed to see nudity on Walters’ office TV. After investigation, it was revealed to be a random channel showing Jackie Chan's The Protector ([19:07]-[20:31]).
• Walters uses the incident to accuse political opponents of sabotage within the Board of Education ([19:31]-[20:17]).
• More troubling, the host notes, is Walters' advocacy for private schools with direct ties to ideological groups like PragerU—organizations involved in crafting the teacher ideology test ([21:03]-[21:54]).

7. Voices from the Classroom: Two Teachers, Two Choices

Michael: Staying, Self-Censoring

• Michael, a current social studies teacher, quietly objects to the new standards but stays for his students ([23:10]-[24:50]).
• Describes having to omit or hide civil rights leaders and feeling pressure to avoid any perception of being "woke":
  “I worry about getting pegged as woke or something like that, just for having certain decorations and things.” ([27:00])
• On teaching controversial material: “I'm required by law to tell you that this is what this says and then just kind of leave it at that. Because if I hesitate... one slip up means I can lose my job.” ([28:20]-[29:10])
• The emotional toll:
  “I pride myself on being an honest person... this feels like a cop out.” ([29:14])

Summer Bomier: Quitting in Protest

• Summer was pushed out after facilitating access to the Brooklyn Public Library (episode 1 context); her license was revoked ([24:12], [31:41]).
• Now unable to find work, Summer feels “suspended” and lost, her 500+ classroom books boxed up in storage:
  “If I open the boxes, it means that I’m finished. And I think that scares me… I hope it matters. I hope it makes a difference. But I don’t regret it. I just regret that I had to do it at all.” ([32:58]-[36:33])

8. The Unseen Battle: Teachers’ Everyday Dilemma

• Threat of professional ruin transforms ordinary teaching into risky territory; even common inspirational quotes become sources of anxiety (Michael, [27:00]-[27:50]).
• “Compromising my integrity a couple of times a year worth doing the job that I love.” – Michael ([21:54])

9. Ongoing Policy Changes and Where Things Stand

• Oklahoma Supreme Court has stayed the new education standards—for now ([18:00]).
• Walters continues using his office for symbolic, ideological declarations: moments of silence for Charlie Kirk and mandates for Turning Point USA chapters in schools ([37:33]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ryan Walters, on ideology and teaching:
  “Listen, you know, it’s not complicated for us here. In Oklahoma there’s two genders. There’s male and there’s female. There’s not 27. There’s not gender fluidity.” ([06:41])
• Hanna Rosen, challenging universality:
  “You define what sounds to me like a specific view as the only view, as the universal view.” ([14:41])
• Michael, on self-censorship:
  “I have a friend who gave me like a framed poster of a quote from John Lewis... I just worry about, like, getting pegged as woke or something like that, just for having certain decorations and things.” ([27:00])
• Summer Bomier, on meaning and regret:
  “If I open the boxes, it means that I’m finished… I hope it matters. I hope it makes a difference. But I don’t regret it. I just regret that I had to do it at all.” ([32:58]-[36:33])
• Michael, on integrity:
  “I pride myself on being an honest person... this feels like a cop out. And at a certain point, I’m going to have to have the conversation with myself, like, is that worth it?” ([29:14]-[29:31])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:31 | Walters: “Pornography should not be in our schools...” | | 04:18-05:15| Walters on separating personal beliefs from teaching as a history teacher | | 06:41 | Walters explains the purpose of the ideology test for teachers | | 08:23 | Discussion on whether Red State values exclude some parents and kids | | 09:23 | Walters blames politicization exclusively on the left | | 14:41 | Host confronts Walters about exclusion and defining universal values | | 15:38 | Walters on teaching 2020 election “discrepancies” | | 19:07 | The “porn scandal” in Walters’ office explained | | 21:54 | Michael, teacher, on “compromising...integrity” to keep his job | | 27:00 | Michael discusses classroom censorship and fear of being pegged “woke” | | 32:58-36:33| Summer’s books in storage—a metaphor for educational uncertainty and loss | | 37:33 | Updates on the ongoing situation, including new policies from Walters |

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Conclusion

This episode paints a vivid, nuanced picture of life in Oklahoma’s public education system at a moment of political upheaval. Through direct conversation with Ryan Walters, as well as the frontline experiences of real teachers, listeners see how national culture wars over race, gender, history, and American identity are shaping education policy—and personal lives—at the local level. The episode captures both the high-stakes political battles and their very human consequences, posing hard questions about neutrality, inclusion, and what public schools are for.

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For those who haven't listened:
This episode is essential for understanding how the abstractions of the culture war play out in classrooms, shaping teachers’ lives and Oklahoma’s definition of public education. The stories, stakes, and tensions shared here are deeply relevant across America.

Transcript

[Ryan Walters]

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[Michael (Oklahoma Teacher)]

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[Summer Bomier]

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[Ryan Walters]

Pornography Pornography should not be in our schools. No parent should send their child to school and their child have access to graphic pornography.

[Hanna Rosen]

In our first episode about Oklahoma public schools, we talked about the rise of State Superintendent Ryan Walters and all the changes he's making in this year's new curriculum. He added dozens of references to Christianity and instructioned high school history students to identify discrepancies in the 2020 election. Although those standards have just been paused for now by the Oklahoma Supreme Court. Walters announced an ideological purity test for some teachers coming in from out of state. And he tried to make sure that certain books were not on the shelves.

[Ryan Walters]

Hey, when we send our kids to school, you know, we are not expecting them to be able to check out a book from the library that's got explicit pornography in it. And unfortunately, this is a tactic we've seen of the far left.

[Hanna Rosen]

We also talked to a pair of former students of Coach Walters, that's what they called him, who described him as an exceedingly cool history teacher, a secret Democrat. One of them had guessed his whole thing about wokeism.

[Summer Bomier]

I truly don't understand because he was woke.

[Hanna Rosen]

He was woke. So we went to Oklahoma City to interview Walters and try to square the circle. I'm Hanna Rosen, this is Radio Atlantic. In this second of a two part series about Oklahoma public education, an interview with Walters about what he's up to. Also about that weird scandal we mentioned at the end of the first episode where two state Board of education members said they saw naked women on a TV in Walters office. Turns out that it wasn't really a scandal. But the way Walters handled it revealed maybe a bigger problem for Oklahoma public schools. The actual thing we should be calling the scandal. We'll get into it later.

[Ryan Walters]

How are y' all doing?

[Hanna Rosen]

Hey, how are you?

[Ryan Walters]

Ryan Walters.

[Hanna Rosen]

Nice to meet you.

[Ryan Walters]

Nice to meet you.

[Summer Bomier]

Hi, Janae.

[Ryan Walters]

Janae, very nice to meet you. Oh man, that's a nice looking microphone right here. Is this my coffee?

[Hanna Rosen]

Arriving at Ryan Walters office earlier this summer was not like arriving at the office of a guy who's in charge of A state school system. We were greeted by two staff members who had come from other states to work for him. Walters has a reputation in young conservative circles as an exciting person to work for, someone who was going places. He'd already teased that he was considering a run for the governor of Oklahoma. And despite being at the center of an awkward scandal at the very moment we arrived, Walter's energy when he greeted us was the opposite of awkward.

[Ryan Walters]

I am a, like easily a pot and a half of coffee a day.

[Hanna Rosen]

Pot.

[Ryan Walters]

Oh yeah, I do have my blood pressure checked. That goes back to my teaching days. I would set it every morning when I rolled in at 6:30. It was pre made. There room smelled like coffee. My kids would come in for tutoring before school and they go, it already smells like coffee. I'm like, it's already made guys, it's ready to go.

[Hanna Rosen]

Speaking of Walter's teaching days, I started by asking about his time as a history teacher. He said he doesn't think he's changed since then. So I was trying to figure out, did he just have different rules back then? Like he used to not think it was okay to talk about Bibles in class, but then he changed his mind. Being a Christian and a teacher, how did you manage that in public school? Like, did you have rules for yourself? There are things I can mention and can't mention, you know, you know, I'm not going to talk about the Bible. I'm not going to talk about my own faith. Like, what were the lines that you drew as a teacher?

[Ryan Walters]

Yeah, great question. So I taught history and government. So one of the things I always tried to make sure that the kids knew is first of all, I didn't ever, you know, my kids. It was always an ongoing debate of what is he, what is his political beliefs. And I would always tell them, I'm not going to talk about mine here in school. I'm not going to talk about those things. I'm going to tell you, this is what some folks believe. Here's what other folks believe. Here's the sources. Sort through it, figure it out for yourself. Now look, hey, we had a Bible in the classroom. We talked about the role the Bible played in American history. It was always done in an academic setting. It was always done in its historical context. You know, I wasn't pushing religion on the kids. I wasn't pushing a political belief. And like I said, the kids always, you know, who'd you vote for? Who do you. And I go, guys, that's, I don't care, you know, I'm not trying to keep it from you. I mean, I'll talk about it somewhere else. You'll know if your parents talk to me, you know, out at a restaurant or something. You know, I don't mind that. But when we're here, I'm talking about academics, we're going to talk about. A lot of people believe different things and I want to, I want you guys to hear all of that and you guys come to your own conclusion.

[Hanna Rosen]

And why, like why was it important not to talk about things in the classroom?

[Ryan Walters]

Well, now we talked about things now and I.

[Hanna Rosen]

Not to talk about your own personal beliefs.

[Ryan Walters]

I just did. I felt like that was incredibly important. When you're talking about, hey, we'll talk about every political issue, you know, we'll talk about all of it. But I wanted them to know you're going to get all, all sides. You're not going to have a teacher that's going to come in and go, this is the side you should believe. My beliefs are separate from this. You're going to come in, I'm going to give you the best education I can and I want to see you come to your own conclusion.

[Hanna Rosen]

People believe different things. You're going to get all sides. That is a very open minded approach which does not at all square with what he's done as superintendent. In an interview once, Walters said, if you're going to come into our state, don't come in with these blue state values. And then right before this school year started, he announced he would administer a kind of purity test to some new teachers coming from out of state. Oklahoma schools, he said, will not be a haven for woke agendas pushed in places like California and New York. If you want to teach here, you'd better know the Constitution, respect what makes America great and understand basic biology. So you recently talked about, you called it either an ideology test or certification test. What's the purpose of something like that?

[Ryan Walters]

Right? Yeah, absolutely. So the purpose is, listen, you know, it's not complicated for us here In Oklahoma there's two genders. There's male and there's female. There's not 27. There's not gender fluidity. That's not something that we want left wing activists pushing on our kids. So when I see a state like California come out and say no, actually every teacher, we're going to teach it that way, that's going to be a demand came from the governor himself. That's what we're going to teach. Okay, well our standards say otherwise. So if you're going to come into our state and teach. And we are recruiting heavily. I've recruited more teachers to our state than ever before in history. We had the biggest signing bonuses in the country to bring teachers here. We put teachers on a path to merit pay where they can make six figures in the classroom. We've got 1,000 teachers on track for that. So we are very excited to have the top educators in the country right here in Oklahoma. But we are absolutely not going to take left wing activists who have been indoctrinated themselves by a radical state like California. So listen, you got to know the difference between male and female. You got to agree that you're going to teach that in our standards. And we're just going to make sure that we're not going to invite that into the state of Oklahoma.

[Hanna Rosen]

So if Walters thought that way about gender, how is he going to handle sexuality? Now? I'm going to ask in a pretty simple way. Let's say I'm a gay parent and I don't have any particular ideology. I'm a parent, I'm married to a same gender person. I have a child in the schools. Am I welcome in Oklahoma schools?

[Ryan Walters]

Absolutely. Every child of every background, every parent of every background is welcome in Oklahoma schools. Our goal is to give every single child the best education possible. It doesn't matter your political leanings, doesn't matter your views on anything. It doesn't matter. You know, we want you to have the best education possible. That is, you know, we want every kid to feel welcome. We want every kid to be supported. We want every single child to succeed.

[Hanna Rosen]

But do you understand how a parent wouldn't feel that way? If you the state superintendent of education saying we want people with red state values in our public schools. Do you see how a parent would feel unwelcome in a school like that?

[Ryan Walters]

No, I don't. We've been very clear of what the vision is. The vision is everyone should agree on this. And I do. And I get people all across the political spectrum. I had Democrats grabbing me all the time on the campaign trail. You know, they may not agree with school choice, they might not agree with everything, but they go, you're 100% right. We should get schools back to teaching the basics. We should all be able to agree on that. And it is unfortunate that we've got one party that says the Democrats have said schools are a weapon to be used to push our ideology on kids. They have a political agenda. Our goal is to take that political agenda out. That is what red states is what red governors have been doing, and that's what we've been leading the charge on to say, no, this is the vision. Everybody should be able to agree on this, frankly.

[Hanna Rosen]

So in your view, it's exclusively the left that has politicized the schools?

[Ryan Walters]

Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Hanna Rosen]

Interesting. I mean, there was a whole period of when there was a Republican agenda to take over state school boards and think about schools. To you, that was all responsive, the way you think of it?

[Ryan Walters]

Absolutely. The teachers unions have run our schools. The federal Department of Education have run our schools since 1979. They've weaponized the federal government to push an agenda and listen to the Republican position. It has been, get back to the basics. Get back to teaching a love of the country's values. It's always with a critical eye. It's always, hey, we want you to do a deep dive into everything again. You notice everything if you look through our standards. But we added more about what happened to the Native Americans. We added more about the Tulsa race massacre. Hey, we want kids to know the times we didn't live up to our values. That's very, very important. And frankly, as a history teacher, you learn from American greatness and those exceptional times throughout our history. You also have to look at the times we didn't live up to those things. And you have to look at that with an honest eye.

[Hanna Rosen]

And you mean that sincerely?

[Ryan Walters]

Yeah, I mean, absolutely.

[Hanna Rosen]

That is not, to you, a kind of a stain on American exceptionalism.

[Ryan Walters]

What do you mean by that?

[Hanna Rosen]

I just mean this is the heart of the controversy, sort of how you teach about America, what America's founding was. It's a very varied view. It's a very varied view.

[Ryan Walters]

Well, yeah, let me address that. So we live in the greatest country in the history of the world.

[Hanna Rosen]

That's also a specific view.

[Ryan Walters]

It is. But I mean, like, if you're teaching.

[Hanna Rosen]

World history and you're teaching many countries.

[Ryan Walters]

Yeah, but if you read. I mean, look, as Franklin said, this is a republic, if we can keep it. And part of the central goal of our education system is to keep the republic, keep an informed citizenry that understands American history, understands American exceptionalism, and understands that if we're not actively involved as citizens, if we don't understand our history, if we don't understand those values, I mean, history also, to your point, when you look at world history, we know what happens when countries don't abide by some central values and central principles, that it won't be good for the next generations. And that's part of what I believe is so important when you talk about education holistically, but specifically history in education.

[Hanna Rosen]

So do you even think of yourself as controversial? Do you understand why people describe you that way? Because you are controversial, but you seem to think of yourself as neutral.

[Ryan Walters]

Well, okay, here's what I. You know, I don't, you know, like.

[Hanna Rosen]

A person in your position doesn't often have, like, enemies and backers and allies and detractors.

[Ryan Walters]

Yeah, sure.

[Hanna Rosen]

Yeah.

[Ryan Walters]

Well, what I will say is, look, I'm unapologetic. The teachers unions have been one of the most negative forces in recent American history. I've never seen anything like it. The ideology they've pushed on kids, it's unfathomable to me that they did that. So, yeah, you know, I went to war with a group that has an unlimited amount of money, nearly an unlimited amount of political power, that had bought off so many elected officials, that have bought off so many different interest groups. And we took on an education establishment of administrators, school board associations, teachers unions. I mean, it doesn't surprise me. I think it's unfortunate that the left has become so radicalized, but it doesn't surprise me.

[Hanna Rosen]

There are a lot of parents who came to feel the same way Walters does about schools. The so called parents rights movement has exploded since the pandemic. Their origin story goes something like during the pandemic, when our kids were doing school from home, we discovered some of the stuff they were learning and we were outraged. Now, conservatives were talking about taking over school boards back in the 90s, but the more recent parents rights movement rocketed their momentum. And it wasn't just Christian conservatives in red states. In a recent Supreme Court case, the court sided with Maryland parents who wanted to opt out of LGBTQ lesson plans that included books that were similar to the ones Walters complains about. Books that mentioned gay or trans trans kids, and that was led by Muslim, Catholic, Orthodox, Christian, and Jewish parents in a school system with a large immigrant population about 20 minutes from where I live in D.C. so the parents who don't want what Walters calls the radical gender ideology pushed on their kids are everywhere and they're winning. The difference is Walters is not just a parent, he runs an entire school system. And his vision is a radical rewriting of what public school in America is and has been for decades. I mean, there is an idea, totally apart from this warfare that you're describing, that public schools are an engine of American democracy precisely because they are a place where people who believe wildly different things, people who are atheists and don't believe in God at all and people who are, you know, evangelical Christians and go to church every day and people who are Muslims and people who are Jewish and people who are gay and all these different things are in school together. And that is the teaching ground. Do you not believe that? I mean, is that not an important value for you?

[Ryan Walters]

It is. Is there anything I've said today that would, that would go counter to that? Because again, what I would say is you think that. Think there is.

[Hanna Rosen]

Absolutely. Absolutely, absolutely. Because you define what sounds to me like a specific view as the only view, as the universal view. There's a universal view. I mean, our founding fathers were influenced by lots of different ideas. Some of them were Christian, some of them were deist. It just seems as if you're defining a pretty specific idea as an idea for everybody. Like saying that schools are for people. We want to welcome people with red state values to our school. That seems specific, it seems exclusive.

[Ryan Walters]

And I've defined those values for you. The values are we're going to teach the basics, we're going to teach academics. We're not going to have this left wing agenda forced on our kids. It doesn't matter what your beliefs are. You walk into a school, you teach kids this. We should all be able to agree on that.

[Hanna Rosen]

You recently added this might be your most controversial thing, that students should be taught about discrepancies in the 2020 election results. Why did you decide to add that?

[Ryan Walters]

How do you teach about the 2020 election without that? I mean, notice how the standard was written. They're going to look at graphs, data charts, everything else show, look, there were discrepancies. You had more people vote in that election than ever before and then they went away. What's the reason for that? Kids are going to come to their own conclusion. We're going to talk about COVID we're going to talk about mail in ballots. They're going to look at the data, they're going to look at the statistics. They can draw their own conclusion on what happened with that election. But you're not going to go teach 2020 one of the most controversial, the most controversial election in American history and pretend like, oh, you know, there was no controversy, there was nothing about. We teach the 2000 election very similarly. We teach the 1824 election very similar.

[Hanna Rosen]

Jennifer, you didn't say identify if there were discrepancies. That seems to me like that would be a open ended question. You said identify discrepancies in election results. That is not universally agreed upon by American Courts. That's a specific political position.

[Ryan Walters]

No, that's a fact. More people voted and trends were dramatically different in that election. Now there's a lot of explanations for that that people can give. We never had an election with dramatic changes in mail in ballots. Okay, well that's something to look into, right? Why were there so many mail in ballots? Covid election strategies changed on that. Of course they did. Right now you can get people to mail in their ballots. So the deep dive is into the discrepancies on the vote totals in that election. Kids are going to come to their own conclusion. That's why we were very particular with that of give them the sources, let them study that.

[Hanna Rosen]

So if a kid concludes there were no discrepancies, does that kid fail? Like, is that kid wrong?

[Ryan Walters]

If a kid. Okay, so kids are going to see the election totals, the vote totals. They're gonna look at the numbers, they're gonna look at the comparisons between others. That's what they're gonna be sure to study so that they understand it was a unique election. There is absolute, that's undeniable. It was a unique election.

[Hanna Rosen]

It was denied by many, many courts.

[Ryan Walters]

But it was a unique election that we've never.

[Hanna Rosen]

Talk about how the 2020 election was unique. That's different.

[Ryan Walters]

What does that mean?

[Hanna Rosen]

Oh, that can mean that's a very open ended question.

[Ryan Walters]

That's right. Our standards are there so that parents are insured. What do you mean what are we learning about? They're going to learn about the vote totals. They're going to learn about bellwether states. They're going to learn about the amount of people that voted. They're going to learn about the amount of mail in ballots, and they're going to come to their own conclusions on that.

[Hanna Rosen]

By the way. Just weeks into the start of the school year, the Oklahoma Supreme Court issued a temporary stay, pausing Walter's new standards as the court considers a lawsuit challenging them. Okay, back to the interview. When the press secretary chimed in to say we had only eight minutes left, I finally had to address the elephant in the room. Okay, so I'm gonna ask you about the news. Sure. There were board members who say they saw the nude pictures on T during the board meeting. It would have been truly perfect justice. A politician who endlessly complains about porn, caught up in a porn scandal. But it turned out to be trifling. After an investigation, the Oklahoma House speaker concluded that the naked women the board members said they saw were likely from a newly installed TV randomly playing a pre programmed channel. More specifically, the 1985 R rated film the Protector, starring Jackie Chan, which has a 44% rating on rotten Tomatoes.

[Michael (Oklahoma Teacher)]

He's a cop with his own way of enforcing the law.

[Hanna Rosen]

We know that now. We did not, however, know any of this at the time. We were in his office. Back then, Walters could have said he himself was confused that it was a new TV or no comment. Instead, the day we interviewed him, he chose this path.

[Ryan Walters]

Yeah, they're outrageous liars, and we're about to be able to show that. We just had two independent investigations to show that. So it shows you the lengths at which they will go.

[Hanna Rosen]

They meaning two board members who said they saw the naked women on the tv, both of whom were appointed by Republican governor Kevin Stitt, who's recently been at odds with Walters. So pre existing beef, this whole concoction.

[Ryan Walters]

Was done to try to stop a board meeting where we were approving a new private school that has American values that they tried to stop in the board meeting. They then tried to hijack the board. They tried to hijack the agenda, the vote, everything else. It became this huge disruption. And then they concocted this to come up with it the next day to try to further disrupt the work we're doing here.

[Hanna Rosen]

So wait, you're saying there was no pornography on the TV or just that you don't know how it got there?

[Ryan Walters]

It was on a cable TV channel.

[Hanna Rosen]

And it was just randomly.

[Ryan Walters]

It was on a cable TV channel, and that is verifiable.

[Hanna Rosen]

Now, all evidence suggests that there were actually nude women on the tv. It was a comedy of errors. But because local schools are the latest live battlefield in our ongoing civil war, we got flamer language investigations and a fight over nothing. And at the first state school board meeting since all this happened back in late July, Walters was a no show. But you know what? There was actually something kind of scandalous that happened on that day, and it had nothing to do with nude women. Walters was there advocating for this private school he mentions, the one he says has American values, that, by the way, has a partnership with PragerU, the same media organization that helped develop Oklahoma's purity test for teachers. Why is the state superintendent, who is the leader of public schools, advocating for some online private school if all this noise gets in the way of whatever is needed to make Oklahoma schools better? Because, remember, they're still ranked near the bottom of America's schools. If it makes it harder for Oklahoma teachers to do their jobs, then that's the real scandal coming up. We'll hear from one of those teachers.

[Michael (Oklahoma Teacher)]

Honestly, I think the debate just comes down to is me compromising in my view, certain levels of my integrity a couple of times a year worth doing the job that I love.

[Hanna Rosen]

That's after the break. At L' Oreal Group, we reached 97% renewable energy for our sites at the end of 2024, and we aim for 100% by 2030. This is how we create the beauty that moves the world.

[Ryan Walters]

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[Hanna Rosen]

You to customize your car insurance and.

[Ryan Walters]

Save hundreds with Liberty Mutual, but now.

[Hanna Rosen]

We want you to feel it.

[Ryan Walters]

Cue the Emu music.

[Hanna Rosen]

Limu. Save yourself money today. Increase your wealth.

[Summer Bomier]

Customize and save.

[Hanna Rosen]

We save. That may have been too much feeling.

[Michael (Oklahoma Teacher)]

Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty.

[Ryan Walters]

Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings Very underwritten by.

[Michael (Oklahoma Teacher)]

Liberty Mutual Insurance Company affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts.

[Hanna Rosen]

Every school year there's something new for teachers to master. New faces, new names, new textbooks. This year, perhaps the most notable were the changes in the curriculum. And in the summer when we visited, which was before the court had issued its temporary stay, teachers were working out how exactly they would talk about them.

[Michael (Oklahoma Teacher)]

These are the ones that were added in by Ryan Walters were identify discrepancies in 2020 elections results by looking at graph and other information, including the sudden halting of ballot counting in select cities and key battleground states, the security risks of mail in balloting, sudden batch dumps, an unforeseen record of number of voters, and the unprecedented contradiction of bellwether county trends. And then the other one is identify the source of the COVID 19 pandemic from a Chinese lab and the economic and social effects of state and local lockdowns.

[Hanna Rosen]

That's real specific, both of those.

[Michael (Oklahoma Teacher)]

Yeah, yeah, they are. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, they are the things that the mypillow guy talks about.

[Hanna Rosen]

Or at least some of the things he talks about. Anyway. This is Michael, a social studies teacher at a public high school in Oklahoma. We're only identifying him by his first name because he loves teaching and he wants to keep his job. And that's the problem. Remember Summer Bomier, the teacher from episode one, who put up a QR code to the Brooklyn Public Library? Like Bomier, Michael was also concerned when the state started auditing books in the classroom a few years ago. But whereas Boamier resigned and ultimately had her teaching license revoked, Michael chose to bite his tongue and stay.

[Michael (Oklahoma Teacher)]

I was definitely, like, stressed about it. You know, it's one of those things where, like, I didn't want to be, like, sensational or, you know, overly dramatic, but, like, you know, the conversations I was having with certain colleagues were like, I mean, this is the first step. This is a slippery slope. Like, we start doing things like this, then, you know, what's to stop them from pushing further these standards and things that we're talking about In Oklahoma, they're really worried about this, like, woke left wing indoctrination of America's children. And it's one of the things, it's like, okay, sure, you could maybe point to a couple of places that that might be happening. None of them are going to be in the state of Oklahoma. Every county has voted red for every presidential election since 08. Like, that's not. That thing's not happening here.

[Hanna Rosen]

In 2016, Michael was teaching at a mostly Latino school. After Donald Trump won his first presidential election, Michael says he could feel that his students were suddenly more wary of him. So Michael decided to say this. I would never vote for something that would bring harm to you. Which he said put them at ease.

[Michael (Oklahoma Teacher)]

I felt okay being human in that moment right where it's, these are kids who are sad and confused and angry and already don't like going to school. And the first person they see is someone who looks like me, who statistically, on paper, voted for this guy.

[Hanna Rosen]

Looking back, maybe it was a little risky to hint at his personal beliefs, but he did it back then because he is a real hustler when it comes to connecting with students. But given everything that's been going on in Oklahoma these days, Michael says he would never say anything like that now.

[Ryan Walters]

There you go.

[Hanna Rosen]

Nice. This is your class.

[Michael (Oklahoma Teacher)]

This is my classroom.

[Ryan Walters]

Yep.

[Hanna Rosen]

Towards the end of the summer, we meet up with Michael in his classroom where he's busy setting up, moving around desks, putting up posters. There are flags for sports teams, flags from every nation, quotes from pop stars, drawings from former students. And right near his desk is a wall of famous figures from history, each with a quote. Pretty standard fare for high school history class, but here, possibly dangerous.

[Michael (Oklahoma Teacher)]

I feel like having anybody who's too involved with the civil rights movement right now is also like, something I gotta worry about, even though I shouldn't have to be everything like that. I have a friend who gave me like a framed poster of a quote from John Lewis as well. And I worry about bringing that and hanging that up kind of a thing like, you know, I just worry about, like, getting pegged as woke or something like that, just for having certain decorations and things.

[Hanna Rosen]

So Is there anything that you didn't put up because you thought, oh, don't risk it?

[Michael (Oklahoma Teacher)]

Not yet. Like I said, I'm still debating about bringing that John Lewis one up because it's really big and it's about like, oh, you know, in times of. You see something that's not right. It's actually the quote that's over there, that's a smaller version of it.

[Hanna Rosen]

Oh, can we read it? Yeah.

[Michael (Oklahoma Teacher)]

When you see something that is not right, not fair, not just you have to speak up, you have to say something, you have to do something.

[Hanna Rosen]

Okay, so let's say that you were faced with a situation where maybe a student brings it up, like Covid comes up or the 2020 election comes up. And how would you actually go about this? Like, how would you handle this as a teacher?

[Michael (Oklahoma Teacher)]

I would say the state standards say that this is the case, and that's what the state standards say.

[Hanna Rosen]

You would. That's how you would do it?

[Michael (Oklahoma Teacher)]

I feel like I would try to convey. Yes. That this is what I'm. I would say I'm required by law to tell you that this is what this says and then just kind of leave it at that. Because if I hesitate, if I say, at least in the point I'm in right now, like, I'm still kind of probationary. So one slip up means I can lose my job. Once I get career or tenure, I'll be good. But I think like, this next year, if something like that comes up, that's going to be how I have to handle it. And again, like, I'm being muzzled and hamstrung and kind of doing this, but. And I mean, I'll lose sleep over it, but this is what I gotta do. Like, keep doing what I want to do, even if it's. It goes against everything I feel.

[Hanna Rosen]

So how does that feel?

[Michael (Oklahoma Teacher)]

Awful.

[Hanna Rosen]

Yeah?

[Michael (Oklahoma Teacher)]

Yeah. I mean, just really stressful and I don't know, I pride myself on being an honest person. I pride myself on being transparent and not really lying and definitely all kind of stuff. And this feels like a cop out. And it feels.

[Hanna Rosen]

It is.

[Michael (Oklahoma Teacher)]

It doesn't. Sorry. It doesn't feel like it.

[Hanna Rosen]

It is.

[Michael (Oklahoma Teacher)]

And that feels bad. And at a certain point, I'm going to have to have the conversation with myself, like, is that worth it?

[Hanna Rosen]

Do you think you have. I mean, it sounds like you're really thinking about this and you've made your compromise for the moment. Do you have a line or rule for yourself where it's like, michael, you can't do this. Anymore. Have you ever in your head, played out a scenario where this and no more?

[Michael (Oklahoma Teacher)]

I. I try not to because I know there's going to be. I think that. I just don't think it's only a matter of time until there is going to be something. I genuinely think that might be, like, if I. If I find myself saying this too many times, I feel like that's gonna be. That's gotta be it for me.

[Hanna Rosen]

Hi.

[Michael (Oklahoma Teacher)]

Hi.

[Hanna Rosen]

Hi. Come on in. Hi, Hannah.

[Summer Bomier]

Hi, Janae. Hi, Janae.

[Hanna Rosen]

Nice to meet you.

[Summer Bomier]

Nice to meet you as well.

[Hanna Rosen]

In case you missed the first episode in our Oklahoma Education series, Summer Boamier was a high school teacher who, unlike Michael, made the decision to quit rather than censor herself. And as a result, it's a couple of weeks before school starts and Boamier has nothing to do and nowhere to be. Summer Boamier is stuck in eternal summer. After the state Board of Education voted to revoke her teaching license, Boamier moved back home to Oklahoma to her mom's house, which is so neat. Like, even a pile of paper napkins from Jersey Mike's take out a few weeks ago is stacked on the kitchen counter with military precision. Signs painted on wood hang over everything. This house is a home. Bless this kitchen. Let all that you do be done in love. They are relentlessly upbeat. Boamier is not.

[Summer Bomier]

I guess the best way I would describe it is it's a bit of a lost feeling. It's just. I don't know, it feels. I feel like a guest kind of in someone else's space. Even though, you know, this is my home, like, this is where, like, I lived before I went to New York, for example. It still feels very temporary, very strange, like I have not unpacked.

[Hanna Rosen]

Wamier says she's applied to more than 300 positions with zero offers. Unclear why. It could be because of the way she lost her teaching certificate. All that controversy. She calls herself educational kryptonite in the state of Oklahoma. She's asked a judge to restore her teaching certificate, but that's just more waiting. So Boamier spends most of her days pacing around her mom's house, sleeping in the guest bedroom with a broken TV and a useless winter coat hanging on a hook. Everything else from her entire adult life is still in boxes, nearly all unopened. Dishes, towels, silverware.

[Summer Bomier]

Everything else is still pretty solidly encased, and I'm a little scared to touch it.

[Hanna Rosen]

Why are you afraid to open any of them?

[Summer Bomier]

That's a great question. I think for Me, if I open the boxes, it means that I'm finished. And I think that scares me. That sort of voice in the back of my head of, you know, I need this to matter. And to me, I'm at a spot where I'm not sure that it does.

[Hanna Rosen]

Where are all your books? Because you had described having 500 books. Where are they?

[Summer Bomier]

My books are currently boxed up just as they've been since 2022, in the back of my mom's storage shed.

[Hanna Rosen]

So we go to the shed. Wami tells us that she shares the shed with her mom, who mostly keeps holiday decorations in there, and her sister, who's also a teacher. That sister has been busy getting her school supplies out of the shed because, remember, school is about to start. Whoa.

[Summer Bomier]

All right.

[Hanna Rosen]

So give us the audio tour guide of what is here.

[Michael (Oklahoma Teacher)]

Sure.

[Summer Bomier]

So pretty much everything at the back of the storage shed. So all these boxes that go almost all the way up to the ceiling. That's my classroom.

[Hanna Rosen]

The storage unit is crammed with sparkly wreaths and smiling Ls. And there's a small path to the back.

[Summer Bomier]

Let's see if I can climb back in here a little bit. This rocking horse is not in a great.

[Hanna Rosen]

And then there they are. The 500 books that used to live in her classroom. The Fault in Our Stars, the Hate U Give. The Twilight Saga, which might or might not be on some banned books list that doesn't exist, or offend someone's parents. I almost feel like there's, like, too much symbolism in this space. Like, there's too much symbolism.

[Summer Bomier]

You unpack a lot more than boxes here.

[Hanna Rosen]

Yeah, it is. This storage shed is one giant metaphor, truly. Do you. Do you feel like. I don't even know how to say it. If. Like, if these books stayed in here forever, what would that mean to you?

[Summer Bomier]

If the books. If the books were back in the classroom, but no, no.

[Hanna Rosen]

Or if books. Or if they stayed here, all of it.

[Summer Bomier]

Like, if it didn't change anything. So I can't undo what I did or did not do. But at the end of the day, you know, if I'm really, truly being honest, I hope it matters. I hope it makes a difference. But I don't regret it. I just regret that I had to do it at all.

[Hanna Rosen]

It's interesting because I feel like you. I mean, even seeing this as brought it home for me. Like, you keep saying, I'm suspended. Like, I don't know where I am. I'm suspended. Which suggests that you're waiting for something. And the Something is like, it could be just a job, it could be a teaching certificate, but it's gotta be something. Yeah, like something has to happen.

[Summer Bomier]

I say that to myself every day when I wake up. Something has to happen.

[Hanna Rosen]

Uh huh.

[Summer Bomier]

I really hope it does. All right, where did I put these? Oh, all righty.

[Hanna Rosen]

Oklahoma kids started school a few weeks ago. So far, Michael says things are going well. That his students this year are extremely polite, which he says is a nice surprise and a little weird. Bomier is still at her mom's house. No job offers. Last week, Ryan Walters ordered that all public schools observe a moment of silence in honor of the death of Charlie Kirk. The state Department of Education says it's investigating claims that some districts did not comply. And then just a couple of days ago, Walters announced a plan to create chapters of Turning Point usa, the conservative organization co founded by Kirk at every Oklahoma high school. That ideology test for teachers that Walters promised? It came out in late August. And right at the top. What is the fundamental biological distinction between males and females? Why is the distinction between male and female considered important in areas like sports and privacy? The test questions in general got a lot of press, unlike the kind of questions that Walter's opponent raised in the state superintendent race about teacher retention, career readiness and food insecurity. Here's a question for the purity test. Is public education guaranteed in the Constitution? The answer is no, it's not. Schools are an example of civic institutions that evolved in a democracy over centuries towards the consensus that they should be free, open to everyone and secular. But as we're learning lately about these institutions, they can be gone faster than you can fall asleep in civics class. This episode of Radio Atlantic was produced by Janae west with help from Rosie Hughes. It was edited by Jonathan Menhivar and Claudina Baid. Original music and mixing by Rob Smirciak. Fact checking by Will Gordon. Claudina Baid is the executive producer of Atlantic Audio and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor. I'm Hanna Rosen. Thank you for listening.

[Ryan Walters]

Limu Emu and Doug. Here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug Limu.

[Hanna Rosen]

Is that guy with the binoculars watching us.

[Ryan Walters]

Cut the camera. They see us.

[Michael (Oklahoma Teacher)]

Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty.

[Hanna Rosen]

Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings vary underwritten by.

[Michael (Oklahoma Teacher)]

Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts.