Radio Atlantic – "Aren't We Supposed to Be the Good Guys Here?"

Date: January 8, 2026
Host: Hanna Rosen
Guest: Senator Mark Kelly

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the recent controversial use of the U.S. military under the Trump administration, featuring candid and urgent commentary from Democratic Senator Mark Kelly, a former Navy combat pilot and astronaut. The discussion spotlights the dangers of politicizing the military, threats to constitutional norms, the chilling of dissent within military ranks, proposed aggressive actions towards Greenland, and the implications of these for democracy and global stability. Personal stakes are explored, including increasing threats against Kelly and his wife, former Representative Gabby Giffords, who survived an assassination attempt 15 years prior.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Threats Against Dissent and Military Norms

(00:05–05:58)

• Kelly describes being publicly targeted by President Trump and Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth after he, alongside other ex-military lawmakers, releases a video reminding service members they can refuse illegal orders.
• Trump labels their act "seditious behavior punishable by death" and Hegseth initiates proceedings to reduce Kelly's retirement grade.
• Kelly argues this is unprecedented, a direct attack on constitutional rights, and serves as a warning to silence all government dissenters.
  • Quote:

    "We all have First Amendment constitutional rights... They're trying to send a message. This isn't just about me anymore. This is a message to the American people. Shut up or there are consequences, and we cannot let that stand." — Mark Kelly (05:28)

2. The Chilling Effect on Military and Democratic Norms

(05:58–07:16)

• The timing of punitive action against Kelly is close to military strikes in Venezuela, arrest of Maduro, and mass firing of senior military leaders.
• The administration’s censure references Kelly’s criticism of these firings, suggesting dissent itself is grounds for reprisal.
  • Quote:

    "They fired people that I confirmed ... because of the color of their skin or because they were women... I criticized Pete Hagseth and the administration over that ... they also pointed to the fact that I said I will always stand up for the Constitution, as if that's an objectionable thing..." — Mark Kelly (06:11)

3. The Ethics of Orders and Use of Force

(07:16–10:22)

• Kelly discusses the need for armed service members to evaluate the legality of orders.
• He recounts personal wartime situations as an example, emphasizing the difference between split-second wartime decisions and clear unlawful commands.
• Raises specific doubts about the legality and transparency of U.S. strikes on Venezuelan boats, highlighting an obligation under the laws of war to protect shipwrecked crews—an obligation breached in recent U.S. actions.
  • Quote:

    "Aren't we supposed to be the good guys here? I continue to have questions about that decision to strike that boat a second time. ... for shipwrecked crew members ... you have an obligation to rescue them. In this circumstance, that did not happen." — Mark Kelly (08:32)

4. Critique of Leadership and Appointment of Pete Hegseth

(10:22–12:12)

• Kelly harshly questions Hegseth’s qualifications, stating he “doesn't check any of the boxes” required for the Defense Secretary role.
  • Quote:

    "Problem with Pete Hegseth. He doesn't check any of the boxes. 0. I'm shocked that the president nominated him for this. Why would you put this guy in this job?" — Mark Kelly (11:26)

5. The Greenland Controversy and American Identity

(12:12–14:52)

• The Trump administration floats using military force to take Greenland, an idea Kelly finds reckless and antithetic to American values, likening it to Russian behavior.
• Points out Denmark is a NATO ally and suggests dialogue over force, calling threats “nonsensical.”
  • Quote:

    "For us to threaten them, especially with force... that's Russia. We are not that kind of a nation." — Mark Kelly (12:44)
    "We don't go around and take other territories from other countries or threaten to do that." — Mark Kelly (13:48)

6. Consequences for U.S. Global Standing and Strategic Security

(14:52–17:46)

• Kelly warns that seizing Greenland by force could be justification for China to invade Taiwan or for Russia to seize other former Soviet territories, unraveling global order and NATO.
  • Quote:

    "If the United States takes Greenland by force ... that has huge consequences.... you're creating an environment that puts us strategically in a very, very uncomfortable position and it will last for decades." — Mark Kelly (16:34)
    "It would probably be the biggest mistake any president has made in the history of this country." — Mark Kelly (17:41)

7. Congress’ Inaction and the Stakes for Democracy

(17:46–19:38)

• Kelly denounces Congressional Republicans for "ceding all their power" and failing to check the executive branch.
• He anticipates significant oversight if Democrats win back the House or Senate, referencing not only military overreach but also alleged Trump family corruption.
  • Quote:

    "Republicans in the United States Congress have given up and ceded all of their power to the White House... The levers of power we have here ... reside with the majority, not with the minority." — Mark Kelly (18:03)
    "The corruption from Donald Trump and his family ... we've never seen before." — Mark Kelly (19:17)

8. Personal Toll, Persistence, and Family

(21:15–22:53)

• On the 15th anniversary of Gabby Giffords' shooting, Kelly discusses the rising death threats against them.
• Despite the danger, he and Giffords resolve to remain outspoken and active in public life.
  • Quote:

    "Neither of us are quitters. We do not give up... The threats against me, my life have gone up significantly. You know who they've also gone up for is my wife, Gabby... She's not backing down to anybody. Absolutely, 100%." — Mark Kelly (21:33–22:48)

Notable Quotes

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------------|-------| | 05:28 | Kelly | "We all have First Amendment constitutional rights... They're trying to send a message. This isn't just about me anymore. This is a message to the American people. Shut up or there are consequences, and we cannot let that stand." | | 08:32 | Kelly | "Aren't we supposed to be the good guys here? ... for shipwrecked crew members ... you have an obligation to rescue them. In this circumstance, that did not happen." | | 11:26 | Kelly | "Problem with Pete Hegseth. He doesn't check any of the boxes. 0. I'm shocked that the president nominated him for this. Why would you put this guy in this job?" | | 12:44 | Kelly | "For us to threaten them, especially with force... that's Russia. We are not that kind of a nation." | | 16:34 | Kelly | "If the United States takes Greenland by force ... that has huge consequences.... you're creating an environment that puts us strategically in a very, very uncomfortable position and it will last for decades." | | 17:41 | Kelly | "It would probably be the biggest mistake any president has made in the history of this country." | | 18:03 | Kelly | "Republicans in the United States Congress have given up and ceded all of their power to the White House..." | | 21:33 | Kelly | "Neither of us are quitters. We do not give up... The threats against me, my life have gone up significantly. You know who they've also gone up for is my wife, Gabby..." |

Memorable Moments and Emotional Beats

• Personal Stakes: Kelly emotionally recounts the gravity of threats faced after political targeting and his family’s resilience, especially in the context of Gabby Giffords' survivor narrative (21:15–22:53).
• "Aren't we supposed to be the good guys here?": This question (08:32) encapsulates the episode's moral urgency, framing the debate as not just political, but about the identity and values of America.
• Risk of Global Geopolitical Chaos: The detailed, stark warnings about global repercussions if the U.S. turns aggressively expansionist (16:34–17:46).

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:05 – Introduction of Mark Kelly’s background and the context for the episode.
• 01:33 – Discussion of the lawmakers' controversial video and the administration’s furious response.
• 05:26 – Why this issue matters to all Americans and the broader chilling effect.
• 08:32 – Examination of warfare legality, use of force in Venezuela, and U.S. moral obligations.
• 11:26 – Kelly’s candid critique of Pete Hegseth as Defense Secretary.
• 12:44 – Greenland military option and the danger of emulating authoritarian tactics.
• 16:34 – Geopolitical consequences of a U.S. military land grab.
• 18:03 – Congressional responsibility and future Democratic plans for oversight.
• 21:15 – Personal and familial threats, and the resolve to persist in public life.

Conclusion

This episode offers a rare, unvarnished look at the cost of challenging executive power in today’s America, traced through direct personal and professional risk. Senator Mark Kelly’s blend of military experience, personal sacrifice, and grave concern for constitutional and global norms makes for a sobering, clarifying conversation. It's a call to vigilance—not just for lawmakers or service members, but for all Americans concerned with the direction of U.S. democracy.