Radio Atlantic Episode Summary: "Change Your Personality"

Released on June 19, 2025 | Host: Hanna Rosen | Guest: Olga Hazan

Introduction: Exploring Personality and Change

In the episode titled "Change Your Personality," Hanna Rosen delves into the intriguing question of whether our personalities are fixed traits or malleable characteristics that can evolve over time. Joining her is Olga Hazan, a staff writer and author of the book Me But Better, who shares her personal journey of attempting to alter aspects of her personality to enhance her happiness and well-being.

Historical Perspectives on Personality

Olga Hazan introduces the conversation by referencing William James, often regarded as the father of American psychology. James posited that personality solidifies like plaster by the age of 30, remaining largely unchanged thereafter.

"[William James] did come up with this theory that personality is sort of set like plaster at age 30 and it never softens again after age 30." [02:08]

However, Olga challenges this outdated viewpoint by highlighting modern research that contradicts James' stance. Contemporary studies, which track individuals over decades, reveal that personalities are not as fixed as previously believed. Instead, most people undergo significant personality changes throughout their lives, especially when they consciously attempt to modify their traits.

"Most people actually do change. And if they do stuff to try to change, they kind of change even faster." [02:19]

Olga's Personal Experiment: "Me But Better"

Motivated by the possibility of altering her own personality traits, Olga embarked on a month-long experiment documented in her book Me But Better. She candidly shares her initial struggles and the impetus behind her quest for personal growth.

"I wasn't very happy and I wasn't enjoying my life to the extent that I thought that I could." [03:14]

Olga recounts a particularly challenging day in Miami, marked by a series of minor mishaps, culminating in an emotional meltdown. This experience prompted her to question the rigidity of her personality and seek ways to foster positive change.

"I kind of realized that it was my personality that was making days like that worse than they had to be. That was like undermining my happiness in those moments." [05:46]

Understanding Personality Traits: The OCEAN Model

Olga introduces the OCEAN model, a widely recognized framework in psychology that categorizes personality traits into five dimensions:

1. Openness to Experience (O): Creativity and imagination.
2. Conscientiousness (C): Organization, diligence, and reliability.
3. Extraversion (E): Sociability, cheerfulness, and activity levels.
4. Agreeableness (A): Warmth, empathy, and trustworthiness.
5. Neuroticism (N): Tendency towards anxiety, depression, and emotional instability.

"There's five traits that make up personality, and we all have these five traits inside of us, and they can be remembered with the acronym Ocean." [07:42]

Focusing on Extraversion: Breaking Out of Introversion

Olga shares her starting point with a notably low extraversion score—23rd percentile—indicative of her introverted nature.

"I scored in the 23rd percentile, which is very low, especially when it came to being friendly or cheerful." [08:57]

Determined to enhance her sociability, Olga immersed herself in activities traditionally associated with extraversion, such as improv comedy, sailing clubs, and social meetups. She even hosted her first party, pushing herself beyond her comfort zone.

"I signed up for improv comedy, a sailing club, like, a bunch of meetups. And I threw a party at my house for the first time." [11:19]

Initially, Olga experienced significant dread attending these activities, especially improv, where she confronted extreme stage fright.

"For the first 6 months, every time I went, I felt this overwhelming sense of dread. Like, you almost wish that you could get in a car accident on the way there so that you wouldn't have to go." [11:19]

Over time, her perseverance paid off. Olga's extraversion score climbed to the 60th percentile, reflecting a substantial shift towards a more outgoing personality.

"Right now, my extraversion, it says it's very high... It's probably like... 60th percentile now." [15:19]

Delving into Neuroticism: Managing Anxiety and Depression

Transitioning to the trait of neuroticism, Olga reveals an initial score in the 94th percentile, highlighting her struggle with constant anxiety and depressive tendencies.

"I was basically always anxious... There was, like, no living in the moment or, like, appreciating the good thing." [17:57]

To address this, Olga engaged in mindfulness-based stress reduction (MBSR) techniques, including intensive meditation practices. Despite her initial aversion to meditation, she attended classes that emphasized basic Buddhist principles and committed to daily meditation sessions.

"It was a meditation class that I took. It was like, kind of like Buddhism for dummies. Like, during the day, like, we would all gather and they would, like, do this PowerPoint with kind of very basic Buddhist ideas. And then we had to meditate for 45 minutes a day as beginners." [19:48]

Though meditation was challenging and uncomfortable for Olga, she noticed a significant reduction in her neuroticism scores post-retreat, dropping to the 39th percentile.

"I took the test... and my neuroticism had actually fallen so much that it was considered low." [22:08]

Olga attributes this positive change to both the meditation practices and the cognitive shifts fostered by her mindfulness training, which helped her mitigate self-blame and embrace acceptance.

"These like Buddhism for Dummies lessons were like, very helpful for me... I realized that I was like, I had this, I don't know, wrong image of other people's lives as perfect because they manage them perfectly." [24:37]

Impact on Motherhood and Ongoing Personal Growth

Olga discusses how her efforts to modify her personality traits have influenced her approach to motherhood. Before becoming a parent, she had established a supportive network and developed strategies to maintain social connections, which proved invaluable during the postpartum period.

"I joined this new moms group... getting together as much as possible... sharing experiences... has honestly made it so much less bad, I think, and less isolating." [27:24]

Despite experiencing a temporary dip in her personality scores postpartum, Olga has seen a rebound as she reintegrates the practices from her experiment into her daily life.

"He [her son Evan] is very smiley... I hope that that continues." [28:14]

Olga emphasizes that personality traits serve as tools for personal growth rather than definitive labels. Her journey underscores the potential for deliberate actions and mindfulness practices to foster meaningful changes in one's personality.

"Personality traits as tools... help you get what you want in life... I feel like I know how to, you know, get more out of life." [26:37]

Concluding Insights and Takeaways

The episode concludes with reflections on the transformative power of intentional personality modification. Olga's experiences illustrate that while changing deep-seated personality traits can be challenging and uncomfortable, sustained effort and the right tools can lead to significant personal growth and enhanced well-being.

"I don't think I would have had a much lonelier and more stressful postpartum experience. I think I would have just thought that's what it is." [27:18]

Hanna Rosen and Olga Hazan jointly inspire listeners to consider their own personalities as dynamic entities capable of evolution, encouraging proactive steps toward self-improvement and greater happiness.

Notable Quotes

• Olga Hazan [02:08]: "There wasn't a whole lot of research on personality or psychology. It just wasn't really like a developed science."

• Olga Hazan [05:46]: "I kind of realized that it was my personality that was making days like that worse than they had to be."

• Olga Hazan [07:42]: "There's five traits that make up personality, and we all have these five traits inside of us, and they can be remembered with the acronym Ocean."

• Olga Hazan [15:19]: "Right now, my extraversion, it says it's very high... It's probably like... 60th percentile now."

• Olga Hazan [22:08]: "I take the test... and my neuroticism had actually fallen so much that it was considered low."

• Olga Hazan [26:37]: "Nate Hudson... describes personality traits as tools. They help you get what you want in life."

• Olga Hazan [27:18]: "I joined this new moms group... it just made it so much less bad, I think, and less isolating."

This episode of Radio Atlantic offers a compelling exploration of personality dynamics, backed by personal anecdotes and psychological insights. Olga Hazan's journey from a highly neurotic and introverted individual to someone who has successfully cultivated a more extroverted and balanced demeanor serves as both inspiration and a practical guide for listeners seeking personal transformation.