Change Your Personality

Summary

Radio Atlantic Episode Summary: "Change Your Personality"

Released on June 19, 2025 | Host: Hanna Rosen | Guest: Olga Hazan

---

Introduction: Exploring Personality and Change

In the episode titled "Change Your Personality," Hanna Rosen delves into the intriguing question of whether our personalities are fixed traits or malleable characteristics that can evolve over time. Joining her is Olga Hazan, a staff writer and author of the book Me But Better, who shares her personal journey of attempting to alter aspects of her personality to enhance her happiness and well-being.

---

Historical Perspectives on Personality

Olga Hazan introduces the conversation by referencing William James, often regarded as the father of American psychology. James posited that personality solidifies like plaster by the age of 30, remaining largely unchanged thereafter.

"[William James] did come up with this theory that personality is sort of set like plaster at age 30 and it never softens again after age 30." [02:08]

However, Olga challenges this outdated viewpoint by highlighting modern research that contradicts James' stance. Contemporary studies, which track individuals over decades, reveal that personalities are not as fixed as previously believed. Instead, most people undergo significant personality changes throughout their lives, especially when they consciously attempt to modify their traits.

"Most people actually do change. And if they do stuff to try to change, they kind of change even faster." [02:19]

---

Olga's Personal Experiment: "Me But Better"

Motivated by the possibility of altering her own personality traits, Olga embarked on a month-long experiment documented in her book Me But Better. She candidly shares her initial struggles and the impetus behind her quest for personal growth.

"I wasn't very happy and I wasn't enjoying my life to the extent that I thought that I could." [03:14]

Olga recounts a particularly challenging day in Miami, marked by a series of minor mishaps, culminating in an emotional meltdown. This experience prompted her to question the rigidity of her personality and seek ways to foster positive change.

"I kind of realized that it was my personality that was making days like that worse than they had to be. That was like undermining my happiness in those moments." [05:46]

---

Understanding Personality Traits: The OCEAN Model

Olga introduces the OCEAN model, a widely recognized framework in psychology that categorizes personality traits into five dimensions:

1. Openness to Experience (O): Creativity and imagination.
2. Conscientiousness (C): Organization, diligence, and reliability.
3. Extraversion (E): Sociability, cheerfulness, and activity levels.
4. Agreeableness (A): Warmth, empathy, and trustworthiness.
5. Neuroticism (N): Tendency towards anxiety, depression, and emotional instability.

"There's five traits that make up personality, and we all have these five traits inside of us, and they can be remembered with the acronym Ocean." [07:42]

---

Focusing on Extraversion: Breaking Out of Introversion

Olga shares her starting point with a notably low extraversion score—23rd percentile—indicative of her introverted nature.

"I scored in the 23rd percentile, which is very low, especially when it came to being friendly or cheerful." [08:57]

Determined to enhance her sociability, Olga immersed herself in activities traditionally associated with extraversion, such as improv comedy, sailing clubs, and social meetups. She even hosted her first party, pushing herself beyond her comfort zone.

"I signed up for improv comedy, a sailing club, like, a bunch of meetups. And I threw a party at my house for the first time." [11:19]

Initially, Olga experienced significant dread attending these activities, especially improv, where she confronted extreme stage fright.

"For the first 6 months, every time I went, I felt this overwhelming sense of dread. Like, you almost wish that you could get in a car accident on the way there so that you wouldn't have to go." [11:19]

Over time, her perseverance paid off. Olga's extraversion score climbed to the 60th percentile, reflecting a substantial shift towards a more outgoing personality.

"Right now, my extraversion, it says it's very high... It's probably like... 60th percentile now." [15:19]

---

Delving into Neuroticism: Managing Anxiety and Depression

Transitioning to the trait of neuroticism, Olga reveals an initial score in the 94th percentile, highlighting her struggle with constant anxiety and depressive tendencies.

"I was basically always anxious... There was, like, no living in the moment or, like, appreciating the good thing." [17:57]

To address this, Olga engaged in mindfulness-based stress reduction (MBSR) techniques, including intensive meditation practices. Despite her initial aversion to meditation, she attended classes that emphasized basic Buddhist principles and committed to daily meditation sessions.

"It was a meditation class that I took. It was like, kind of like Buddhism for dummies. Like, during the day, like, we would all gather and they would, like, do this PowerPoint with kind of very basic Buddhist ideas. And then we had to meditate for 45 minutes a day as beginners." [19:48]

Though meditation was challenging and uncomfortable for Olga, she noticed a significant reduction in her neuroticism scores post-retreat, dropping to the 39th percentile.

"I took the test... and my neuroticism had actually fallen so much that it was considered low." [22:08]

Olga attributes this positive change to both the meditation practices and the cognitive shifts fostered by her mindfulness training, which helped her mitigate self-blame and embrace acceptance.

"These like Buddhism for Dummies lessons were like, very helpful for me... I realized that I was like, I had this, I don't know, wrong image of other people's lives as perfect because they manage them perfectly." [24:37]

---

Impact on Motherhood and Ongoing Personal Growth

Olga discusses how her efforts to modify her personality traits have influenced her approach to motherhood. Before becoming a parent, she had established a supportive network and developed strategies to maintain social connections, which proved invaluable during the postpartum period.

"I joined this new moms group... getting together as much as possible... sharing experiences... has honestly made it so much less bad, I think, and less isolating." [27:24]

Despite experiencing a temporary dip in her personality scores postpartum, Olga has seen a rebound as she reintegrates the practices from her experiment into her daily life.

"He [her son Evan] is very smiley... I hope that that continues." [28:14]

Olga emphasizes that personality traits serve as tools for personal growth rather than definitive labels. Her journey underscores the potential for deliberate actions and mindfulness practices to foster meaningful changes in one's personality.

"Personality traits as tools... help you get what you want in life... I feel like I know how to, you know, get more out of life." [26:37]

---

Concluding Insights and Takeaways

The episode concludes with reflections on the transformative power of intentional personality modification. Olga's experiences illustrate that while changing deep-seated personality traits can be challenging and uncomfortable, sustained effort and the right tools can lead to significant personal growth and enhanced well-being.

"I don't think I would have had a much lonelier and more stressful postpartum experience. I think I would have just thought that's what it is." [27:18]

Hanna Rosen and Olga Hazan jointly inspire listeners to consider their own personalities as dynamic entities capable of evolution, encouraging proactive steps toward self-improvement and greater happiness.

---

Notable Quotes

• Olga Hazan [02:08]: "There wasn't a whole lot of research on personality or psychology. It just wasn't really like a developed science."

• Olga Hazan [05:46]: "I kind of realized that it was my personality that was making days like that worse than they had to be."

• Olga Hazan [07:42]: "There's five traits that make up personality, and we all have these five traits inside of us, and they can be remembered with the acronym Ocean."

• Olga Hazan [15:19]: "Right now, my extraversion, it says it's very high... It's probably like... 60th percentile now."

• Olga Hazan [22:08]: "I take the test... and my neuroticism had actually fallen so much that it was considered low."

• Olga Hazan [26:37]: "Nate Hudson... describes personality traits as tools. They help you get what you want in life."

• Olga Hazan [27:18]: "I joined this new moms group... it just made it so much less bad, I think, and less isolating."

---

This episode of Radio Atlantic offers a compelling exploration of personality dynamics, backed by personal anecdotes and psychological insights. Olga Hazan's journey from a highly neurotic and introverted individual to someone who has successfully cultivated a more extroverted and balanced demeanor serves as both inspiration and a practical guide for listeners seeking personal transformation.

Transcript

[Hanna Rosen]

Marketing is changing fast and Contentful is built for what's next. Our AI powered content platform helps teams structure, manage and scale content effortlessly so brands can deliver the personalized digital experiences customers expect. Learn [e-mail].

[Olga Hazan]

Now more than ever, Lowes knows you don't just want a low price, you want the lowest price. And with our lowest price guarantee, you can count on us for competitive prices on all your home improvement projects. If you find a qualifying lower price somewhere else on the same item, we'll match it Lowe's we help you save price Match applies the same item current price at qualifying retailers. Exclusions and terms apply. Learn how we'll match price@lowe's.com lowest price guarantee.

[Hanna Rosen]

There is one thing I really don't like about myself. I mean, there are several, but I'm only going to tell you about this one right now. It can be the most beautiful day, like springtime cherry blossoms, every direction you look. And immediately, instinctively, my mind will scan for the one thing wrong, like, gross, there's pollen all over that car. I have definitely tried over the years to do this or that, to counteract it, like cultivate a more positive mindset or start my day by saying three things I'm grateful for. But I think there's just a part of me that thinks, well, that's just how Hana is. Like there's some core of Hana Rosen, whether it's genetic or epigenetic or learned, that will always scan for the negative. I'm Hanna Rosen, this is Radio Atlantic. And today we're talking about personality, what it is and whether it's something you can actually change.

[Olga Hazan]

So many decades ago, William James did come up with this theory that personality is sort of set like plaster at age 30 and it never softens again after age 30.

[Hanna Rosen]

That's staff writer Olga Hazan. And the William James she's talking about is considered the father of American psychology. But his view of personality doesn't hold up to modern scrutiny.

[Olga Hazan]

There wasn't a whole lot of research on personality or psychology. It just wasn't really like a developed science. So when researchers started doing more modern studies about this, what they found after following, you know, the same group of people for decades and decades is that most people actually do change. And if they do stuff to try to change, they kind of change even faster.

[Hanna Rosen]

Like me, Olga had things about her personality that she wished she could change. And when she learned that it's not so set in stone, she thought she'd give it a try. She made it a months long project an experiment. And she wrote about it in a new book called Me But Better. So I love this idea. I find it very inspiring, as I'm sure a lot of people do. Why did you start it? Like, obviously there were things about yourself that you didn't like, which there are things about all of us that we don't like. But what was it in your case? Yeah.

[Olga Hazan]

So on top of not liking certain things about myself, something that I noticed is that I just wasn't very happy and I wasn't enjoying my life to the extent that I thought that I could. So what started this was that I had just a really rough day. I was in Miami in December, so definitely nothing to complain about, environment wise. Yeah, I had to go get professional photos taken for our job, and I had to get a haircut before the photos were taken. And so I go, I book a hair appointment. I. This haircut is terrible. It's probably one of the worst haircuts I've ever gotten in my life.

[Hanna Rosen]

Details, details. Was it a bang problem?

[Olga Hazan]

It wasn't a bang problem. Okay. I try to emphasize every time I get my haircut that my hair does not take layers. Well, and they always do layers, despite what I explicitly said. And maybe I need to just be more straightforward about it. But anyway, so there was, like, a mushrooming effect because of the attempted.

[Hanna Rosen]

Sorry. I'm sorry.

[Olga Hazan]

Attempt at layers.

[Hanna Rosen]

Yeah.

[Olga Hazan]

Anyway, so I'm, like, leaving the hairstyle. I'm like, oh, my God, I look terrible. Like, have to go directly to the photo session where I got professional photos taken that looked really bad, in my opinion. And then I had to right away drive on to the grocery store to get a bunch of groceries for dinner that night. And as I was driving, I went the wrong way and got stuck on this island that cruise ships launch from. Then once I recovered from that, I got to the grocery store, and as I was leaving my shopping cart locked, and I had to drag the shopping cart across the parking lot to my car. And while this all was happening, my boss was slacking me edits on a story.

[Hanna Rosen]

Oh, my God.

[Olga Hazan]

So I, like, do these edits sitting in this, like, hot car. I, like, drive on. I get back to the Airbnb and I just freak out. Like, I honestly just had a, like, meltdown. Not a panic attack, but, like, crying, like, chugging wine, just screaming like, I hate everyone, you know? And I settled down eventually, and I was sort of like, why do I react so badly to things that are kind of minor? Like, honestly, just even recounting that day, as a new parent, I'm kind of like, eh. So, like, like, you know, it's. It's like, that's bad, but that's not that bad. And I kind of realized that it was my personality that was making days like that worse than they had to be. That was like undermining my happiness in those moments.

[Hanna Rosen]

Okay, I just want to question that for one second. First of all, I'm sorry you had that day. It sucks. And I understand you just want to be frustrated. Like, you don't want to be screaming and crying. Like, you don't have a breakdown. You just want to be like, you know, casually frustrated. I think a lot of people when they are sad or, you know, they feel unhappy, like the traditional roots is see a shrink, get on meds, you know, whatever, journal. Like, I don't think that I would have thought, okay, it's my actual personality. Like, to look at yourself, break your personality down. I mean, it's. It's interesting. It was an interesting response you had. And I'm wondering how you even knew in that moment to look at yourself and think, oh, it's my personality.

[Olga Hazan]

Yeah. So actually seeing a shrink and taking medication do change your personality.

[Hanna Rosen]

Interesting.

[Olga Hazan]

So. And that is to say that, like, personality change is kind of the root of a lot of different types of personal growth and self improvement. So what I was kind of describing just now is a high level of neuroticism, which I did have. And so bringing that down is personality change. And one way to do that is through therapy and medications. But I think kind of beyond just neuroticism, I was also just kind of unhappy with other parts of my life. Like, I honestly just didn't socialize much. Like, I kind of reflexively didn't socialize. I didn't have a lot of friends, which to me was like a different thing than neuroticism. And then I kind of just was really snippy with my boyfriend at the time. My husband now. And honestly, like, would get in a lot of fights with my friends, which is like this other trait called agreeableness. So I don't know, it's. It felt more like all encompassing than just the. Like, I need to handle my stress better.

[Hanna Rosen]

Right. Okay, so you've been mentioning some of the main traits that you outline in your book. Can you just lay out the different components so we can follow you through this experiment?

[Olga Hazan]

So there's five traits that make up personality, and we all have these five traits inside of us, and they can be remembered with the acronym Ocean. So it's O for openness to experiences, which is like creativity and imaginativeness. C for conscientiousness, which is like being on time, being super organized, being really diligent. E for extroversion. So being sociable, cheerful, active. A for agreeableness, which is being warm and empathetic and trusting. And N for neuroticism, which is being neurotic, being anxious and depressed.

[Hanna Rosen]

Okay, so that's how you started to, like, break your own problems down. Like, there's this bucket, that bucket, that bucket. We won't do the whole ocean of personality, but I really wanna talk about a few that interest me the most. Maybe we'll start with extroversion, because being outgoing is a common goal. Lots of people say, oh, I wanna have more friends. Particularly post pandemic. How extroverted were you at the start of this process?

[Olga Hazan]

Let me look up my exact score.

[Hanna Rosen]

Oh, they were scores. Okay, so you actually get a number?

[Olga Hazan]

Yeah. When you take the personality test I was taking, you do get a number.

[Hanna Rosen]

That's a little brutal.

[Olga Hazan]

Yeah. Oh, okay. I scored in the 23rd percentile, which is very low, especially when it came to being friendly or cheerful.

[Hanna Rosen]

Interesting. Okay. Okay. When you first got that number, how does that feel?

[Olga Hazan]

I was like, that checks out.

[Hanna Rosen]

You weren't surprised. Okay, so how did you go about this? That's the kind of thing where someone would say, okay, well, I'm just not that extroverted. And one road would be acceptance. I'm just not that extroverted. I'm gonna stay home and watch TV a lot.

[Olga Hazan]

Yeah. And I did that road for a long time. So one kind of interesting twist here is that when psychologists take a bunch of introverts and they tell them, go out and act like extroverts for a few minutes. Go socialize, you know, go hang out, and then they come back and they're like, how do you feel? They actually say they feel happier. And they also say they feel more like themselves.

[Hanna Rosen]

Something about your saying that, like, makes me nervous. I think it's just because of the Susan Cain book Quiet, where we've come to appreciate the power of introverts. You know? What do you. What do you say about that?

[Olga Hazan]

So, yeah, I mean, I think, like, I really, really liked the book Quiet, and I really like Susan Cain. Personally. I just think that, like, there are benefits for introverts to occasionally act like extroverts. I think it's okay to still identify as an introvert and to, like, appreciate all of the perks that come with that. But to also occasionally be able to at least try on this more outgoing personality trait.

[Hanna Rosen]

So when you set out to try and change this part of yourself, you know, raise your score, we'll just put it that way. Concretely, were you saying to yourself, I want to change Olga and make Olga not an introvert, Or I want to try on extroversion for sometimes, like, a costume, or I want to change my score. Like, what was your goal?

[Olga Hazan]

My goal was to change my score. So to be more extroverted. I didn't think it would work well enough to make me an extrovert in the end. I think my latest test that I took did put me technically in the extrovert category, but I didn't think that it would work that well.

[Hanna Rosen]

Okay, so how did you do it?

[Olga Hazan]

I signed up for a bunch of activities and went to them. I signed up for improv comedy, a sailing club, like, a bunch of meetups.

[Hanna Rosen]

Wow.

[Olga Hazan]

And I threw a party at my house for the first time.

[Hanna Rosen]

Wow. And all the while, just so people understand what this kind of experiment is like, in case they wanna try it. Are you uncomfortable? Like, surely you're going against your. What you initially called natural inclinations.

[Olga Hazan]

So I ended up doing improv for about 8 months or so. And probably for the first 6 months, every time I went, I felt this overwhelming sense of dread. Like, you almost wish that you could get in a car accident on the way there so that you wouldn't have to go.

[Hanna Rosen]

That is extreme. I totally sympathize. I understand.

[Olga Hazan]

Yeah. Is there any way to get out of this? Any way, please, God, don't make me go. I have extreme stage fright. And so you get there and you're all sitting in a circle, and then at some point you get up and you just start doing improv with the other people who are there.

[Hanna Rosen]

And the reason it helps you become extroverted is because it's relational. Like, you have to be deeply attuned to this total stranger. You have to be on the stage. You have to perform. Like, it just forces you into actions that are extroverted.

[Olga Hazan]

Oh, yes. It makes you become, like, way more comfortable with chaos. Because everyday conversation is chaotic, but improv is even more chaotic than that.

[Hanna Rosen]

Right. And then as. So then, you know, let's say the 20th time you're going to improv class, does the initial dread fade or. It's always that cycle.

[Olga Hazan]

I think over time it did fade, but even before it completely went away naturally, like, I would start to feel it, and I would kind of tell myself like, no, like, you're gonna be fine. It's just improv. It's, you know, it's okay. Like, you're gonna feel good after, you know. It's very similar to how I, like, talk to my son now. It's like, no, you like this formula. This is the good kind.

[Hanna Rosen]

That's so funny. So this is tricky to understand. So by the end, you're doing it with a little bit less dread. You're still talking yourself into it. You're able to do it. So you're not avoiding it. You're doing it. You're at times enjoying it, but it's still not your natural inclination.

[Olga Hazan]

So I would say it's not to do improv, but it's to connect with other people. When I'm feeling down, like, if I'm. If I'm feeling isolated and withdrawn, I don't feel like the solution is just to spend more time by myself. I feel like it's to connect with others and sort of get out of my head a little.

[Hanna Rosen]

But that actually seems revolutionary. Like, if you think of one of our largest problems now, which is lack of connection, the idea that you can actually. Actually work at it, you know, like, approach it like a project and change it slowly such that what you got, okay, maybe you're not gonna be on snl, so that's not your destiny. But. But what does change is that you don't go deeper into yourself when you are feeling. Whatever you're feeling like you. You seek some kind of connection. And research does show that that's healthy.

[Olga Hazan]

Yeah, and that's. That's kind of like the science behind why extroverts tend to show up as, like, happier. They kind of just spend a lot of time around other people, and other people tend to make us happy, even though we can all think of times when other people have not made us happy. But, you know, I'm really glad I did that before having a baby, because I think that my approach to new motherhood would have been totally different otherwise and much more isolating if I hadn't done this experiment to see, okay, actually being around others and connecting socially and even in a way that's, like, silly and doesn't totally make sense is, like, still a good thing.

[Hanna Rosen]

Oh, that's amazing. What's your extraversion score now?

[Olga Hazan]

Right now, my extroversion, it says it's very high.

[Hanna Rosen]

Very high?

[Olga Hazan]

Yes.

[Hanna Rosen]

So it went from very low to very high?

[Olga Hazan]

Yes. It's not in the top 10%. It's in. I would say it's probably like, I don't know, 60th percentile now.

[Hanna Rosen]

I know, but you're getting all ambitious now, like you want to be in the top.

[Olga Hazan]

I didn't get into the Harvard of extroversion. Exactly.

[Hanna Rosen]

That's amazing. Okay. Very, very impressed. And I feel like people should try it. So that was extraversion, the E in Ocean. After the break, Olga takes us through another section of her book, the N the negative nervous capital N Neurotics.

[Olga Hazan]

If you're part of the 50% of people who attempt to quit vaping each year, you need to equip yourself with the right tools for the job. And there's no better tool to break up with your bad habit than this episode's sponsor, Fume. The award winning flavored air device loved by over half a million customers. Fume is twice as effective as the solutions you've tried and it's backed with lab tested safety studies so both doctors and customers agree. Fume is the good habit and it's 1/3 of the cost of your bad habit. Start your guilt free journey with the good habit and use code ATL to get a free gift with purchase and begin your overdue breakup. Just head to trifume.com atl that's T R y F u m and use code ATL to start the good habit today.

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. With the price of just about everything going up, we thought we'd bring our prices down. So to help us, we brought in a reverse auctioneer, which is apparently a thing Mint Mobile unlimited premium wireless. Everybody get 30, 30. Better get 30, better get 20, 20, 20.

Better get 20, 20.

[Hanna Rosen]

Everybody get 15, 15, 15, 15.

[Olga Hazan]

Just 15 bucks a month. Sold.

Give it a [e-mail] Switch.

[Hanna Rosen]

Upfront payment of $45 for a three.

[Olga Hazan]

Month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 GB of network's busy. Taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com.

[Hanna Rosen]

Okay, let's move on to the second trait that I want to talk about, which is neuroticism. The N of Ocean. That is one that I think many people would like to change about themselves, myself included. What did your starting point there look like?

[Olga Hazan]

I think I scored higher than like literally everyone else on earth. I was in the night. I was, I was in the 94th percentile.

[Hanna Rosen]

So you did get into the Harvard of neuroticism. Yeah, yeah. Excellent. Yeah. Graduating and we're laughing but like the feeling. I mean everyone's, everyone's version of Neurotic is different, but can you talk a little bit about your own version? Like, what is it that bothered you about your neuroticism?

[Olga Hazan]

So I was basically always anxious. Like, there just wasn't a time when I wasn't anxious. I was constantly thinking about stuff in the future that could go wrong or stuff in the past that did go wrong. And, like, why did I allow it to go wrong when good things would happen? There was, like, no living in the moment or, like, appreciating the good thing. It was, like, on to the next thing that could go wrong.

[Hanna Rosen]

Right, right.

[Olga Hazan]

Or like, oh, the sunset is great, but, like, the one yesterday was better. You know, like, on vacation, like, we would get to, like, some beautiful attraction or landmark of some kind. And I'd be like, okay, what's next?

[Hanna Rosen]

Like, right, right.

[Olga Hazan]

Like that kind of thing. Yeah.

[Hanna Rosen]

So you started out with Harvard level high baseline neuroticism. This one is hard to face, I will say. So what was your process of trying to change it?

[Olga Hazan]

So I followed this, like, one study that's been done on personality change. But a lot of those suggestions were, like, a lot of gratitude journaling. And I did do that, but a lot of it was also meditation, which I know. Anything else I know, I was like, seriously, I was, like, diving so deep into the, like, psychology. Is there, like, something where I can, like, walk backwards for a mile and be cured?

[Hanna Rosen]

You know how there are headlines sometimes that are like, this is the one thing you need to do. It's always meditation. So I'm like, you're not surprising me in this headline. Yes.

[Olga Hazan]

Yes. Yeah, it's always meditation. It was indeed meditation. So it was a meditation class that I took. It was like, kind of like Buddhism for dummies. Like, during the day, like, we would all gather and they would, like, do this PowerPoint with kind of very basic Buddhist ideas. And then we had to meditate for 45 minutes a day as beginners. Yes.

[Hanna Rosen]

That's an intimidating amount of time.

[Olga Hazan]

It was really, really, really hard. I honestly don't think I could do it with a kid now. I don't really have 45 minutes anymore. But I think if people are, like, trying this at home, like, I think they should start with way less because it can feel so daunting that you're like, why even bother? You know? And there's a lot of meditations out there that I also found effective that are much shorter, like 10 or 15 minutes.

[Hanna Rosen]

So you starting out as a person with high neuroticism, you face meditation as a Person who sees meditation all over the culture. So there's already a barrier to entry. So how do you slide into that one? Because I actually understand the benefits of meditation. I just also understand the cultural ubiquity of meditation and thus the resistance to it, you know, so how do you sneak your way in so that it's helpful?

[Olga Hazan]

Yeah. So I basically was like, dragged kicking and screaming. And unlike with improv, I didn't enjoy it at any point. Like, so we would have these, like, phone calls with our meditation teacher to see, like, how things were going. And basically all my phone calls were like, all about how much I hated.

[Hanna Rosen]

Meditation, which is maybe neurotic.

[Olga Hazan]

Like, I'm not doing it right. Yeah. I was like, can I listen to music? Can I listen to a podcast? Like, can I wash the dish? She's like, no, you need to be there and sit with whatever comes up and whatever stuff she said. I was like, that doesn't make any sense. We had an all day meditation retreat where all we did was meditate all day. It was like the worst day of my life. I hated it so much. Oh, my God. And they were, at one point, I think they got frustrated with me because they're like, you sound like you're striving and like, you're not supposed to strive in meditation. And I was like, yeah, of course I'm striving. So, yeah, it was just so hard and so painful and it worked.

[Hanna Rosen]

Whoa. Okay, so can you describe how the turn happened? I think many people would want to know.

[Olga Hazan]

So I don't think there ever was a turn. I sort of hated it all the way through. All the way through the, like, retreat. And then I took the test, like, not long after the retreat, and my neuroticism had actually fallen so much that it was considered low. It was in the 39th percentile.

[Hanna Rosen]

Wait, you went from 97% to low?

[Olga Hazan]

Yeah, I no longer scored, like, extremely high or whatever it was, but I will say it was mostly because of a change in my depression score. Like, so I have really, really high anxiety, and I also had high depression. And my depression went down by a lot. And my anxiety also went down a little, but not by as much.

[Hanna Rosen]

And what do you attribute that to? I mean, that's amazing. Like, going down on depression or anxiety is fantastic. So what do you attribute it to? Do you attribute it to the meditation or to the act of focusing on yourself for some amount of time so that you're taking your depression seriously, or what was it?

[Olga Hazan]

So, two part answer here. One is that. So this class that I took called MBSR has gone head to head with the antidepressant Lexapro. And it actually works allegedly as well as Lexapro. So there is kind of precedent for it bringing down anxiety and depression. And I think the answer, maybe it was the meditation just like working in the background, like sweeping away the cobwebs or whatever without me, like noticing, you know, because it's like you're supposed to just let your thoughts past like clouds or whatever. But I think the more kind of immediately efficacious thing was that these like Buddhism for Dummies lessons were like, very helpful for me. Even though I thought they were kind of stupid, I found them really helpful. And in particular, my meditation teacher would always say, things happen that we don't like. And I realized that I was someone who was very filled with self blame for things not going the way they were quote, unquote supposed to go. Like getting stuck in traffic. I would get like this overwhelming, like rage at myself whenever I was stuck in traffic. And it was, it's traffic, like, you know, there's nothing you can do about it. But I realized that I was like, I had this, I don't know, wrong image of other people's lives as perfect because they manage them perfectly.

[Hanna Rosen]

Right.

[Olga Hazan]

And that I'm the only one who can't.

[Hanna Rosen]

Right.

[Olga Hazan]

And for some reason this, like PowerPoint focused, like Buddhism class helped me get rid of some of that.

[Hanna Rosen]

I believe everything the Buddhists say. I have never found any of it unhelpful. It's always incredibly helpful if I can just get myself to sit down and pay attention.

[Olga Hazan]

Yes.

[Hanna Rosen]

Okay, so basically this experiment was successful for you?

[Olga Hazan]

Yes, yes.

[Hanna Rosen]

And when did you do it?

[Olga Hazan]

I did this right before I got pregnant.

[Hanna Rosen]

All right, so that's an important marker. So that would be like two years ago you did this experiment. Now what has stayed with you about it?

[Olga Hazan]

So I will say that right after I had Evan, my scores got all like. I'm looking at my graphs of my scores and there's like a huge dip on all of them right after the baby came. Because postpartum depression can affect all these things. Also, like, you're not socializing, you're not being nice, you're not being conscientious, you're not showering in that immediate postpartum period. So they all crashed and burned right after the baby came. But I actually just recently took the tests again. He's a year old now. And I just took them again a month ago and they actually Went back up. Not quite to the level as they were when I was doing the book, but back up for the most part, I would say, across all the traits. And I think that's just because I've been able lately to get back more into some of what I was doing for the book. Not all of them interesting.

[Hanna Rosen]

Okay, so how you're using this in your life, this whole experiment that you did is, first of all, it convinced you that you can change things about elements of your personality. Like, you know that to be true now. And so you have these markers and they essentially serve as goals. And if you're finding yourself to be unhappy, then you can work on one or another of these goals. Like, it just allows you to be more self aware, notice things about yourself, and it gives you some very concrete tools to fix it.

[Olga Hazan]

Yeah, that's how I see it. And that's. I mean, Nate Hudson, the researcher whose work kind of forms the backbone of the book, he really describes personality traits as tools. Like, they help you get what you want in life, which is why, like, I kind of shy away from the, like, don't change your personality if you like yourself. Because, you know, I liked myself before and I like myself now, but now I feel like I know how to, you know, get more out of life.

[Hanna Rosen]

That's really, really interesting. Like, you wouldn't have minded yourself if you'd been a somewhat isolated mother who didn't see that many mothers.

[Olga Hazan]

Yeah, I don't think I would have. You know, I think I would have had a much lonelier and more stressful postpartum experience. I think I would have just thought that's what it is.

[Hanna Rosen]

Like, like that's Olga's version of parenting. And that's okay. Like, you wouldn't have hated yourself for it.

[Olga Hazan]

Yeah, exactly. But instead what I did is I joined this new moms group. And in general, I just have made more of a point of reaching out to other new moms and just kind of getting together as much as possible or even just like keeping in touch, like over WhatsApp or whatever, you know, sharing experiences or just like, what the hell is this? Is this normal type stuff that has honestly made it so much less bad, I think, and less isolating. Like, I wouldn't say that I, like, have a village, but it's just nice to not feel like you're the only person in the world who's ever had a baby.

[Hanna Rosen]

Yeah, yeah. So you have the advantage of going into motherhood with all of this understanding of personality. Have you found yourself talking about your son or thinking about your son with some of this research in mind.

[Olga Hazan]

Yeah. You know, Evan is very smiley, and he's just, like, very happy. He, like, smiles very easily. He smiles at people he knows and likes. And my parents tell me that I was not like that.

[Hanna Rosen]

Thanks, Mom.

[Olga Hazan]

Yeah. And so the way I talk about it, I'm like, oh, he gets that from my husband, Rich. And I don't know, I'm just like. I, like, really sorry. I'm gonna. I'm, like, trying not to choke up. That's okay. Sorry. I really, like, wanna not mess that up for him. Like, I wanna. I don't know. Sorry.

[Hanna Rosen]

No, that's okay. You wanna keep him happy?

[Olga Hazan]

Yeah. Not like, keep him happy, but, like, I hope that that continues. I don't know.

[Hanna Rosen]

Yeah. No, I thought you were going somewhere different. I thought what you were going to say is, I don't want to think about his personality as fixed. Like, I want to allow him, like, if he wants to be unhappy or if he wants to be, you know, if he wants to be a different way or throw a temper tantrum, that's okay. Like, I will keep in mind that we can, you know, we can move towards a goal later. But I think what you're saying is more, you know, simple and beautiful, and I appreciate that. I'm sorry that your mom was. It's like when my mom used to tell me how much cuter my brother was than me as a baby. Every single time we look at baby pictures.

[Olga Hazan]

Lovely.

[Hanna Rosen]

Yeah. Well, Olga, thank you so much. I feel like this will inspire a lot of people to try it. So thank you so much for writing it down.

[Olga Hazan]

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much for having me on.

[Hanna Rosen]

This episode of Radio Atlantic was produced by Kevin Townsend and edited by Claudina Baid. We had engineering support from Rob Smirciak. Fact checking by Genevieve Finn. Claudina Baid is the executive producer of Atlantic Audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor. Listeners, if you like what you hear on Radio Atlantic, remember, you can support our work and the work of all Atlantic journalists when you subscribe to the Atlantic at theatlantic. Com Listener, I'm Hanna Rosen. Thank you for listening.