He's Undocumented. She's Not.

Summary

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Radio Atlantic – "He's Undocumented. She's Not."

Date: December 11, 2025
Host: Hanna Rosin, The Atlantic

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Episode Overview

This episode brings the clarifying, human-centered storytelling The Atlantic is known for to the complicated world of immigration—zeroing in on the lives of one couple forced to decide between staying in America or leaving for Poland. Through intimate audio diaries and conversation, the episode explores their emotional calculus, fears, and joys as policies shift and their futures hang in the balance. At its heart, it’s the story of Maddie (a U.S. citizen) and Matt (undocumented, Polish-born), whose marriage cannot solve his lack of legal status, and whose love must weather the storm of an America intent on mass deportation.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

A National Climate of Fear (00:40–02:31)

• The episode opens with President Trump’s re-election and his return to aggressive anti-immigrant rhetoric, including images of burning cities and the announcement of "Operation Midway Blitz," a nationwide ICE crackdown with a goal of a million deportations a year.
• Hanna Rosin underscores both the overt and subtle ways that raids and policy shape immigrant lives:

  "Maybe these ICE raids aren't just ends, they're a means to something else, to get people to choose to leave voluntarily… where the constant pressure wears down something that once felt real, this American idea." (01:30–02:10)

Introducing Matt and Maddie & Their Love Story (02:31–07:27)

• The couple: Maddie, a U.S. citizen of mixed race, and Matt, undocumented, came from Poland as a child and has lived in the U.S. for 24 years.
• Early in their relationship, Matt revealed his status:

  “As soon as we started talking, as soon as we had our first date, it was like, okay, there’s something special about this guy.” — Maddie (04:28–04:38)

• Maddie’s initial naiveté about immigration hurdles gives way to deeper concerns as their relationship progresses.

Life as Undocumented: Stress, Limitations, and No Pathway (07:27–10:05)

• Marriage to a U.S. citizen does not fix Matt’s situation due to how he arrived.
• Lost DACA status due to bureaucratic missteps—no new applications are being processed.
• Their “mixed status” marriage means ongoing fear and uncertainty, despite Matt’s ability to “pass” as white and accent-free:

  “You know, it's no question that the color of my skin and my nationality helps me… very lucky in a fucked up way.” — Matt (09:03–09:16)

Fleeting Hope, Renewed Panic (10:05–11:39)

• A brief glimmer: The Biden administration offers "Keeping Families Together," which would allow some undocumented spouses of U.S. citizens to apply for status while remaining in the U.S.

  “It felt like a godsend… we're finally going to get Mat[‘s] status. This is finally going to happen.” — Maddie (10:20–10:40)

• The program is struck down in Texas, coinciding with Trump’s re-election campaign.
• Matt prepares for the worst: "Matt packed a go bag, stashed away some cash, and made sure to always have his Polish passport within reach." (11:21–11:39)

Dreaming of Home(s): Facing the Unknown (12:01–14:16)

• Matt’s only vivid memories of Poland are from childhood, before his journey to the U.S.

  “Everything is so vivid and I can see it and… I’m almost there.” — Matt (12:29–12:37)

• Describes Poland as "peaceful," contrasting with present chaos.

The “Poland Option”: Painful Choices (14:34–19:00)

• After exhausting U.S. options, Poland looms as a legal solution—but emotionally fraught.
• Maddie resists:

  “I told him verbatim, I am not fucking moving to Poland.” — Maddie (15:26–15:30) "It was hard for us to relate… because it felt like I was being asked to give up more than he was…" — Maddie (15:48–16:14)

• Their divergent definitions of “home” clash: Matt’s is more portable; Maddie’s, rooted in family and friendships.

Scouting Poland: Maddie’s Visit, A Turning Point (16:46–19:02)

• To resolve the deadlock, Maddie visits Poland, despite dread.

• Returns with unexpected peace:

  “The way that I felt when I was there was the same way that I felt when I met him, which was this feels right… it made sense to me.” — Maddie (17:57–18:15)

• Both accept the move as inevitable:

  "10… We're like, damn, it’s set. I mean, it sucks, but… it’s okay, fine. But… I am very good at letting things go… a survival mechanism.” — Matt (19:01–19:15)

The Moment of No Return: Booking Tickets (19:27–22:28)

• A raw audio sequence as they book tickets for November 2025 to Krakow:

  "My heart is racing." — Maddie (19:31–19:34)
  "Let's fucking go. Let's fucking go." — Matt (22:03–22:11)

Leaving—the Emotional Fallout (23:18–28:59)

• Maddie tells her coworkers at her nonprofit she is leaving her job and the U.S.

  “Because of. Some of you know this. But Matt is undocumented. And… things have gotten a lot worse.” — Maddie (23:56–24:11)

• Both wrestle with what they are giving up:

  “It makes me want to stay… you should stay, man. Like, look at that. Look at all this. You want to start over?” — Matt (27:55–28:11)

• Maddie’s family, understanding but saddened.

  “The thing that gives me comfort is knowing that they’re going to have a healthy, secure life…” — Maddie’s father (28:46–28:59)

Escalating Tensions, Rising Anxiety (29:32–31:37)

• As their departure nears, ICE raids in Chicago intensify, and Poland faces its own political unease with Russian drones.

• The couple openly shares panic attacks, second-guessing, and emotional meltdowns:

  “I’ve had so many dreams over the years where I have this terror that comes over me… what have we done? We’ve left America. We can’t go back.” — Maddie (30:32–30:49)
  “Do you think I’m weak?” — Maddie
  “No. I think about you as my wife, who is fucking amazing for being willing to get on a plane with me… and settle somewhere new.” — Matt (31:07–31:32)

The Final Goodbye (32:19–35:42)

• Emotional airport scenes as they part from family and friends:

  “I’m gonna miss my brother the most. I think it’s hitting me a little bit… I’m excited. I’m glad that we got to live in the same city for a little bit. That was really special.” — Maddie (32:28–32:53) “I changed my mind. This is the new maddest I’ve ever been.” — Maddie’s brother (34:45–34:48) “Because I look at you as mom now… like everything I wanted in one.” — Matt (34:29–34:38)

Between Two Worlds (35:42–end)

• The couple flies away—two seats, one-way ticket—caught between two homes:

  “One full of the people who loved them a few thousand feet below and the other full of uncertainty a few thousand miles ahead.” — Hanna Rosin (35:42–36:11)

• When asked what Matt felt he was giving up:

  “His answer was on what could have been.” — Hanna Rosin (36:29–36:36)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Can we make some fucking lemonade?” — Maddie, reflecting on their hardships (03:46–03:53)
• “It’s shit, okay?” — Matt, darkly joking about hope (03:56–03:59)
• “It felt like coming home after a really long time of being away.” — Maddie, on falling in love (07:12–07:22)
• “I am not fucking moving to Poland.” — Maddie, resisting change (15:26–15:30)
• “Sensual pierogi” — Maddie & Matt, injecting humor into their reconnaissance trip (18:30–18:41)
• “Let's do this. Let’s fucking go. Let’s fucking go.” — Matt, ticket-booking adrenaline (22:03–22:11)
• “I have to find a way to be okay.” — Maddie, on coping with the move (25:45–25:52)
• “I will be eternally grateful for what you’re doing.” — Matt, acknowledging Maddie's sacrifice (31:37–31:43)
• “His answer was on what could have been.” — Hanna Rosin, closing reflection (36:29–36:36)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:40–02:31: The national anti-immigrant climate and policy ramp-up
• 02:31–07:27: Matt & Maddie’s courtship, love and complications
• 10:05–11:39: Rollercoaster of legal hopes dashed
• 14:34–16:14: Poland first emerges as an option
• 17:21–18:41: Maddie visits Poland, has an emotional breakthrough
• 19:01–22:28: The decision: buying one-way plane tickets
• 23:18–24:11: Maddie tells her workplace they're leaving
• 27:30–28:11: Matt contemplates what he'll miss, wrestling with doubts
• 29:32–31:37: Bombarded by anxiety, nearing the move
• 32:19–35:42: Heart-rending farewells at the airport
• 35:42–36:36: Final airborne reflection: caught between two homes

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Tone and Language

The tone is introspective, raw, and deeply personal. While policies and politics are a backdrop, the storytelling foregrounds the humor, exasperation, and tenderness of a couple making an impossible decision: Leave behind home, family, and the possibility of American belonging in the search for legal safety and peace.

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Summary Conclusion

“He’s Undocumented, She’s Not” humanizes U.S. immigration policy debates with a deeply affecting narrative. The listener witnesses the intimate mechanics of loss, hope, and resilience as Matt and Maddie say goodbye to a life they built, choosing uncertainty in Poland over perpetual precariousness in America. The episode’s power lies in its unfiltered moments—the cursing, the tears, the jokes, and the panic attacks—making the abstract consequences of policy achingly real.

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This summary captures the essence, emotional intensity, and polemical nuance of the episode, providing key moments and insights for listeners and non-listeners alike.

Transcript

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[C]

Just a quick note, this episode contains some cursing that you may not usually hear on this show.

On September 6th, President Trump posted a fabricated image on Truth Social of a burning Chicago skyline with helicopters flying overhead. I love the smell of deportations in the morning, he wrote a reference from Apocalypse Now.

A couple of days later, the Department of Homeland Security announced Operation Midway Blitz. Operation Midway Blitz will, quote, target the criminal illegal aliens who flocked to Chicago and Illinois agents and demonstrators pushing and.

[B]

Shoving outside an ICE facility just outside the city this morning. From tear gas being deployed outside a.

[C]

Logan Square market to an older person.

[B]

Being handcuffed checking on a man who.

[C]

Had been detained and injured.

These types of scenes have since played out all across the country in the pursuit of one ambitious goal, at least a million deportations every year. But even with ICE's $28 billion annual budget, the largest for a law enforcement agency in the federal government, it still may not be possible to deport the 14 million or so people who are here illegally. So maybe these ICE raids aren't just ends, they're a means to something else, to get people to choose to leave voluntarily. And there's more than one way to accomplish that. There's the overt way. Make people afraid to go to work or take their kids to school or even leave their homes. And then there's a more subtle way where the constant pressure wears down something that once felt real, this American idea. Or maybe hope that there could be a future here.

[B]

Like people knew what the election meant for us, but I just couldn't bring myself to say it.

[C]

Last spring, we met a young couple in Chicago. One's a US Citizen and the other is undocumented from Poland.

[A]

Yeah, honestly, when this started happening, I thought it was only a matter of time before this hits closer to us. Yeah, like it was only a matter of time.

[C]

They may not be the kind of couple that most people think of when it comes to this issue, because they have more choices than most. But the past year had them asking exactly the question this administration wants them to ask.

Is it just better to leave?

[A]

There are Black Hawk helicopters flying over my head. Apartment complexes are being attacked in the middle of the night.

Right now. It does feel like things are kind of just falling apart.

[C]

For the last several months, we asked them to document how they would make that decision.

[B]

Today's our five year anniversary.

[C]

They sent us more than 100 recordings.

[B]

Cheers.

[C]

To family.

[A]

To family.

[C]

And more than 40 hours of the life they've made.

[B]

Oh, my God. How do you feel?

Like there's just so many lemons here. Like, at some point you're like, okay, can we make some fucking lemonade?

[A]

But they're not lemons.

[B]

What are they?

[A]

It's shit, okay?

[C]

And day by day, it was getting harder to hide.

[A]

I've heard reports of ICE being around and sniffing around, but never a raid like this.

And now I'm freaking out.

[C]

I'm Hanna Rosen, this is Radio Atlantic. And this is one snapshot of one couple who are about to make a choice.

How did you and Matt meet?

[B]

We met online and it was really one of those things. Like, as soon as we started talking, as soon as we had our first date, it was like, okay, there's something special about this guy.

[C]

On Matty Palovic and Matt Borowski's first date, they went to a restaurant in Chicago known for their Tater Tots. On their second date, Matt told her that he was undocumented.

And was your reaction like, uh, oh, or what was your reaction?

[B]

I would say.

I would say I was taken aback. Like, I think if I knew a little bit more about the situation, the hurdles that he has navigated and would navigate, I think if I would have known that, I would have been more concerned. Concerned. But at the time, I was just very like, huh, okay, that's enough to, like, give me pause. But I enjoyed his company enough that I was like, okay, this is good information. I would like to proceed, but maybe there's a little bit of hesitation in my brain, but it's okay.

[C]

The more serious things got between them, though, the more questions Matty had.

[B]

And at least, you know, at that time, because we weren't talking about leaving America yet, you know, at least it was like, you know, us staying in America was really the only thing that was on the table. So it was like, okay with the immigration stuff in particular. Like, this is going to live with him, and am I okay with that? Am I okay with, like, this becoming my life?

[C]

For Matt, that life had meant never being able to plan ahead, had meant applying for a job as a teenager and breaking down when the owners found out that he'd lied about his paperwork and continuing to lie about his paperwork, because what other choice did he have? Matt's life had always been precarious, which was tolerable when he was alone. But now there was Maddie.

[A]

Can you, for my sake. What, Elaborate on the whole derailing your life thing a little bit more?

It was because I'm thinking about it again and I'm thinking about those conversations.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I need to be kind of not reminded, but I kind of. I almost want to hear how close we were.

To not working.

[C]

We were never.

[A]

But you know. But you know what I. You know what I mean when I say that? Like. Like.

[B]

We were never close.

I said this before, and I'll say it again.

When I met you and started falling in love with you, it felt like coming home after a really long time of being away.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Mattie and Matt got married five years ago on a mountain peak in Colorado. It was just the two of them. They wore the same clothes that they'd worn on their first date, and they had a picnic of snacks from Trader Joe's.

Love can conquer a lot of things, but the immigration system is not one of them. Because of the way Matt had come to America and illegally with his mom from Poland when he was 6, there was no real pathway for him to citizenship. And for someone in his situation, marrying a US Citizen does not undo that. At one point, he did have protected status under daca, Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, who are sometimes called dreamers. But there was also a point in his life when he had no money, nowhere to live, and no support from his family. So he missed one window to renew his DACA application, which meant that he would have to file a new one. But no new applications have been processed. For years, Trump has opposed the program going back to his first term. Matt's only real option would be to leave the country and apply for a visa, which would automatically trigger a 10 year ban. So no option that allows him to keep building a life in the US With Maddie. Now, as an undocumented person, Matt can hide better than some because he's white and speaks English without an accent. Matty, who's half white and half black, has joked that ICE is more likely to stop her than him.

[A]

You know, it's no question that the color of my skin and my nationality helps me. It just does. And I'm very aware of that. And I'm very, honestly, very lucky in a fucked up way. But.

It'S not like I'm afraid of a witch hunt or something. It's more so just any sort of benign incident where my status could be looked up, and it will very. It's very easy to find that I do not have papers.

[C]

Does your wife think you're being Paranoid or reasonable?

[A]

A mixture of both.

[C]

Compared to a lot of undocumented people in Chicago, Matt has it easy. But compared to people who can live and work here safely, he lives a life of real and constant uncertainty. Matt could never really count on a career. Never leave the country, never vote, never be pulled over or arrested on the off chance that it could lead to something worse.

And then last year, some hope. Under the Biden administration, DHS announced a policy called Keeping Families Together, which would allow some undocumented spouses of U.S. citizens to apply for legal status while they stayed in the country.

[B]

It felt like a godsend. Like, I remember, like he woke me up one day in June and was like, you will not believe the news that has just come out.

[C]

The program was tailor made for them.

[B]

Because there were very specific restrictions on it. Like, you had to have been married for several years. You had to have entered the United States at a certain time. And so we spent all summer, like riding this high of like, we're finally going to get mat status. This is finally going to happen. Oh my God.

It was only supposed to be like a few weeks, but a few weeks turned into another few weeks and then it turned into a month. And that was when, like, the hammer fell.

[C]

The same week that Trump won his reelection in November, on a campaign filled with the promise of mass deportations, a judge in Texas said that the Biden administration had overstepped its legal authority. He struck down the Keeping Families together policy for good.

Matt and Matty were back to square one. Back to feeling like they were being pushed out of the place, that they wanted to make a home if someone would just let them. Matt packed a go bag, stashed away some cash, and made sure to always have his Polish passport within reach.

[A]

My sister in law, who's Polish, her aunt, who has a green card, was detained at o' Hare not long ago.

And you know, things like that are just like, okay, she was detained and she was let go. Green card, okay, fine, that's not going to happen with me. If they look into my situation.

I'm never going to forget this. It was the most vivid dream about being home I've ever had.

[C]

Matt had lived in the US for 24 years. He didn't know any other place as home. But sometimes in his dreams, there was this other place.

[A]

I really did feel like I was there for a second and it was the closest I'd ever felt to feeling that way.

Everything is so vivid and I can see it and I can, like, I'm almost there.

You Know.

[C]

There are still things Matt remembers about Poland. His town in the southeast of the country was quiet, rural. He remembers farming equipment, picking strawberries in a field, and he remembers living in a house with his mom, uncle, and grandparents.

[A]

This was, what, nine, 10 years after the Soviet Union fell. So, you know, Obviously we had TVs, but we didn't have cable. We didn't have anything like that. So it was just a lot of it was a very simple life. That's what I can put it. Yeah. And we would all just sit together and watch storms, and that was it.

It's peaceful, ultimately.

[C]

Why is a storm peaceful? That's an unusual word for a storm.

[A]

Well, if it's from a distance, you know, if it's at a distance, it is peaceful.

I don't know. Destruction at a distance. It's an interesting thing to think about.

[C]

Matt and his mom left Poland in 2001, got on a plane without Matt saying a proper goodbye, and landed in Mexico City, where he says they walked across the border and into the US illegally. Eventually, they made their way to Chicago. His mom met up with a guy from Poland who became his stepdad, although the two of them never officially married. Several years later, they had another kid, his half brother Jacob, who's American.

If one day he up and moved, disappeared to another country in the same way that he left, Matt says the only person he would miss would be Jacob. He hasn't spoken to his parents in years.

[B]

We had been going on all of these walks at the park by us, and then there was one day we went on a walk on the pier. Great view of the city. And so we had gone out there on a walk. And that was when Matt first floated the idea of Poland.

[C]

After trying and failing so many times to find a legal way to stay in the US the more Matt thought about it, the more Poland made sense as a place they could live. Instead, for every immigration roadblock that Matt faced here in the U.S. mattie could clear them easily in Poland because they were married and Matt would be a citizen. Matti could get temporary residency right away. So last year, he brought it up.

[A]

I would describe her as angry. I would describe her as angry. I would describe her as defiant.

[B]

I told him verbatim, I am not fucking moving to Poland.

[A]

Initially, she just shut down. She was not having it.

[B]

I was irate. Like, I, like, stormed off, like, on this pier. I, like, left him. And I was like, no, I'm not.

[C]

Get the fuck out of here.

[A]

She would probably tell you that she felt like I was Taking her away from something or taking something away from her.

[B]

It was hard for us to relate to each other sometimes because it felt like I was being asked to give up more than he was. I don't want to go further away from my family. I moved here with my best friend from college. So, yeah, people like that. That I'm like, no, I don't want to leave her. And so there was, like, this whole world that I had built for myself that now I was being asked to possibly have it all ripped away.

[C]

Before Matt and Mattie could stop going around in circles and have a real conversation about Poland, they had to look at this deeper question. What is home? On the one hand, for Maddie, Matt was home. It's why she said she fell in love with him. But home for her was also her brother, her best friend from college, her favorite bar. How could she leave all that? So in February, Matt tried to cut through their fighting with a plan. And.

[B]

And Matt is like, yeah, Matt, I think you should visit.

[A]

I bought the plane ticket, and I said, you're going, because if you don't go, I don't. I feel like you're gonna resent me.

[B]

I did not want to go, but it wasn't because I didn't want to go. It was because I knew if I went, it means that this is real. And for a while, I was like, yeah, okay, yeah, maybe. Yeah, we'll see. And admittedly, like, I kind of was hoping that he would forget about it and it wouldn't be brought up again. And I just kind of let life pass by. And then, Maddie, I think you should visit.

[A]

This is Maddie talking about going to Poland to check it out. Since I can't, I just.

[B]

I really did feel myself getting emotional. Like, my eyes getting prickly, as I was seeing.

[C]

In May, around the same time the Trump administration was offering migrants $1,000 to self deport. Maddy had just come back from her trip. Before going, they'd both agreed that if she didn't like Poland, if she had any negative feelings whatsoever, it was off the table.

When you were there, could you see your own self anywhere?

[B]

Yeah, I could.

[C]

I could.

[B]

The way that I felt when I was there was the same way that I felt when I met him, which was this feels right. It just. Like in my bones, it made sense to me.

This thing that felt like, oh, I'm not someone that would leave America. I'm not someone that I'm not smart enough or courageous enough to do that. I don't know. But when I was there, it Was like, no, you can do this and it will be okay.

Yep. Oh, I took this guy. That was funny.

[A]

Sensual pierogi.

[B]

I was like, what is a sensual pierog? Pierogi. So we gotta go there. We gotta find out what their sensual pierogi are.

[C]

The.

[B]

We gotta find out what their sensual pierogi are.

[C]

So how serious are you guys? Like, on a scale of 1 to 10? One is just like, meh, let's go to Poland. And 10 is like, we have plans. I'm saving for a plane ticket, scouting for an apartment. Like, where are you on that scale?

[A]

10.

[C]

10, 10.

[A]

We're like, damn, it's set. It's set. I mean, it sucks, but it's like, okay. Honestly, like, that's kind of what it's like. It's okay, fine. But because of the way I grew up, I am very good at letting things go, which is not necessarily a positive thing, but it's. But it's a survival mechanism. I'm very good at letting things go. And I'll just deal with it later.

Hold on.

My heart's racing.

[B]

My heart is racing.

My heart is racing.

I mean, do you really think we should get these now? I've yet to see it below a thousand.

[A]

I've never seen it below a thousand.

[C]

Maddie was maybe not so good at letting things go. Or at least she hadn't had much practice. But they seize the moment. A deal is a deal.

[A]

And flying. But you look like you're shaking.

[B]

I am.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

I am. I am shaking.

[A]

It's okay. It's okay.

Baby girl. It's okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

At the end of May, they sat down to book their flights to Poland. They picked seats on the right side of the plane because that was the side where you could see the city as you left.

[A]

Okay, so outbound flight, Tuesday, Nov. 4, 2025, departing 5:20 Chicago, arriving 11:40am in Krakow.

[B]

I feel so shaky.

[A]

You ready? Yeah.

[B]

I think we should do it.

I think we should do it. How do you feel?

[A]

Let's do it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You wanna put your hand on the mouth?

Just put it on my hand. Three, two, one. Oh, that's anticlimactic. Three, two, one.

[B]

Fucking stop.

[A]

Okay, I'm just gonna do.

[B]

It's cuz you're hitting it at the wrong.

[A]

Right click.

[B]

My heart is pounding.

[A]

This is this the most ridiculous thing ever.

[B]

Oh my God. Okay, don't reload the page.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Oh.

[A]

This place. Let's go.

[B]

Come on.

I'm so ready to go.

[A]

Let's do this. Let's Fucking go. Let's fucking go.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It's one thing to buy a plane ticket, but it's another to realize what you might be leaving behind. That's after the break.

[B]

Some tech leaders question whether we're in an AI bubble, but others say the best of what AI has to offer is yet to come.

[C]

Maybe in 10,000 years, AI will be based on physics that we don't even understand right now.

[A]

And we'll have many different approaches.

[B]

Join US Weekly starting October 15th, for the most interesting thing in AI, brought.

[C]

To you by Rethink, the Atlantic's creative.

[B]

Marketing studio in collaboration with PwC. Wherever you get your podcasts.

Okay, we're recording. Okay. So this is kind of some bittersweet news to share with you guys, but it is exciting.

[C]

At the start of summer, Maddie, who worked at a nonprofit in Chicago, let her co workers know that she would be leaving her job.

[B]

My last day here will be mid October. And the reason it's coming to an end is because in early November, Matt and I are moving to Poland.

[C]

Oh, Matt.

[B]

We're moving to Poland.

Because of. Some of you know this. But Matt is undocumented. And over the duration of our relationship, especially in the last year, things have gotten a lot worse. Right? Like, we work in this community. We serve immigrants.

[C]

For Matt, this move was a homecoming of sorts. He'd lived in America for the majority of his life, but he'd kept up with his Polish, and he still had some extended family back in Poland.

Leading up to October is probably going.

[B]

To be very difficult as well, emotionally.

[C]

So for Maddie, of course, this move was different.

[B]

If you have any questions, feel free to ask me or Maddie. I'm sure you have plenty of questions, but we have so much more to look forward to. And you can always please come back here.

If you'd like. Maddie, don't be afraid. That's all I have to say. Maddie, don't be afraid.

[C]

Maddie was leaving behind a career. She did not speak the language, would not know anyone in Poland besides Matt, and although she could return to the US it would only be for shorter visits. Mattress. A life with Matt meant they were probably never going to live in America again.

[B]

Like, that's what I'm resenting right now. I'm resenting that I'm having to move. Just bear with me. But I'm having to move to this fucking country, and I have to learn this fucking language.

[C]

They had given themselves enough time to get ready for the move and enough time to second guess.

[A]

Are you gonna be okay?

[B]

I don't have another option.

I mean that literally. I don't have another option. I have to find a way to be okay.

So I have to do the things that I have to do. Like, that's how I will be. Okay.

[A]

Don't forget Polish.

[B]

And don't forget Polish. And don't forget to do many exercises. And don't forget to find time to talk to my friends before I leave America. And, like, literally never live here ever fucking again. And don't keep going.

[A]

You saying this shit does not make me feel better.

[B]

I'm saying that facetiously.

[C]

It's just like, there's.

[A]

It's not facetious. It doesn't come off as facetious.

I know you have a lot to do. What the fuck have I been doing since January?

[B]

Everything.

[A]

I know there's a lot to do.

I know it's not funny anymore.

[B]

Okay, well, I'm. I don't know. Do you want me to apologize for being bitter?

[A]

No.

[C]

Matt had his own reservations, too. One was that the move would hurt his relationship with Mattie. Another was that he was turning his back on the home that meant more to him than he sometimes let on. On his last day of work, when his colleagues showered him with cards, tamales and hugs, and helped him nearly close the bar down after work, he was caught off guard.

[A]

So, yeah, it's just hard to let that go, man. Like.

It'S.

Yeah, just a lot of connections were made, you know, over the last three years. More than I, I guess, paid attention to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

I mean, it makes me want to stay.

Like, as hard as the job is and as. As hard as it is living here, it's. You know, that voice in the back of my head is like, you should stay, man. Like, look at that. Look at all this. You want to start over?

[C]

Most of all, they were leaving behind Maddie's family, who had become Matt's family now, too. Who was the first person you told in your family that you were leaving?

[B]

I would say.

Seriously? I would say it was my dad.

[C]

What did he say?

[B]

He understood and he.

Was not surprised that we were making this choice.

[A]

Yeah, lots of stages of grief. You know, we accept it. The thing that gives me comfort is knowing that they're going to have a healthy, secure life and it's going to be good.

[C]

I think of so many other families.

[B]

That are going through this and they.

[A]

Don'T have a happy outcome, and they.

[C]

Have a worse outcome of some.

[B]

Someone.

Being deported to a country that.

[C]

Either they fled or they don't live in.

[A]

And I feel like this is the.

[B]

Best outcome possible, so.

[A]

Yeah, it'll be okay.

[B]

It's just our story.

[A]

We're just one.

[B]

Property. You don't have a warrant.

Get the fuck out of here.

[A]

Nazis.

[C]

With a little more than a month left before their flights, everything around them seemed to be ramping up. ICE and Border Patrol had Chicago on edge, and Trump was threatening to send in the National Guard.

[A]

Well, we're going in. I didn't say when we're going in.

[C]

Tensions were also escalating in Poland after news broke that they'd shot down Russian drones in Polish airspace. The military. They are accusing Moscow of an act of aggression after Polish and NATO forces scrambled to shoot down. And Maddie was having panic attacks.

[B]

Okay, I'm really freaking out.

[A]

Give me your hand. Give me your hand. Give me your hand.

[C]

It's okay.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[C]

I'm feeling.

[B]

I'm gonna throw.

[A]

Hey, hey, hey.

[C]

It's okay.

[A]

It's okay. It's okay. It's okay. Oy. It's okay. D. Deep breaths. Deep breaths. In and out. In and out. In and out. Holding my hand.

[B]

I've had so many dreams over the.

[C]

Years where I have this terror that.

[B]

Comes over me because I'm like, oh.

[C]

My God, what have we done?

[B]

We've left America. We can't go back. What have we done? And I've had that dream so many times, but also at the same time, there's just so much joy because I'm like, we're out.

[C]

Like, we. We did it.

[B]

We're not in America anymore. Well, like, what have we done?

[C]

And.

[B]

And I'm just. That's what I'm thinking about is, like, okay, it's gonna be real this time.

[A]

It's not gonna be a dream.

[B]

Do you think I'm weak?

[A]

No. No.

[B]

I just wonder how you think about me sometimes.

[A]

I think about you as my wife, and I love you a lot.

I think about you as my wife, who is fucking amazing for being willing to get on a plane with me and fly 5,000 miles across the Atlantic and settle somewhere new.

That's what I think of you.

I will be eternally grateful for what you're doing.

Oh, tears.

[B]

How's it looking in there?

[C]

We're good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The sardine can is being packed as we speak.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

On their last day in America, all of Maddie's family, Matt's brother Jacob, and all of their luggage were loaded into a van to go to the airport.

[B]

Air flower, France, 5C. 5C. We're this way. Okay. So I think Matt and I are gonna check all of our bags and then we'll.

Say goodbye.

[C]

Who will you miss the most, do you think?

[B]

Oh.

I'm gonna miss my brother.

Yeah, I'm gonna miss my brother the most.

I think it's hitting me a little bit.

Like, it's okay. I'm excited. Yeah. I'm glad that we got to live in the same city for a little bit.

That was really special.

[A]

Don't say that.

[B]

I know, I know.

I know.

[A]

So I brought my sunglasses inside as soon as I walked in. I cried as soon as I walked in.

[B]

I'm getting really warm in this. I'm a little sweaty. I don't know about you guys.

[A]

I just had my passport scanned for the first time.

[B]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[C]

After all the bags had been checked and the boarding passes printed, the only thing left to do was the thing that they had been dreading.

They found a space off to the side and for a moment they were quiet.

[A]

Just that time, right?

[C]

Matt went to his younger brother Jacob first.

[A]

Do you remember, Remember when I moved back for a little while when I was like 22, 23, and I left really quickly and we had the same sort of thing happen, you remember? Yeah. I think of it as that. Except now that I'm leaving and I'm going where I'm going, you at the very least know that I can be safe, you know?

[B]

I love you.

[A]

I love you, man. I love you, too.

[C]

They said goodbye to Maddie's mom.

[B]

Oh, I want to say goodbye. Mad. We're gonna see each other before we.

[A]

Because I look at you as mom now, you know, like it's. Yeah, like everything I wanted in one.

[C]

Yeah. They said goodbye to Maddie's brother.

[B]

I know, I know.

[A]

I'm so mad at you.

I changed my mind. This is the new maddest I've ever been.

[C]

And then it was time.

[B]

Oh, is this it?

[A]

This is it.

[B]

Wait, how do you say goodbye?

[C]

Goodbye.

[B]

Well, there's like 12 different ways of saying.

[A]

I just said, like.

That'S until next time.

[C]

As the plane lifted off there in seats 17D and 17F with a 1 way ticket, they found themselves caught between two homes. One full of the people who loved them a few thousand feet below and the other full of uncertainty a few thousand miles ahead.

The day before their flight, we'd asked Matt if he felt like he was giving something up by leaving America. And he said that he did.

When we asked him what he felt he was giving up. A country, a city, an idea.

His answer was on what could have been.

[A]

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Barcelona. It is 20 past four. You may now deactivate flight mode. Please keep your seat belt. Fast.

[C]

This episode of Radio Atlantic was produced by Janae West. It was edited by Ethan Brooks. Rob Smirciak engineered and composed original music. Enna Alvarado, fact checked. Claudina Baid is the executive producer of audio at the Atlantic. And Andrea Valdez is our managing editor. Listeners, if you enjoy the show, you can support our work and the work of all Atlantic journalists when you subscribe to the Atlantic. At theatlantic.com listener I'm Hanna Rosen. Thank you for listening.

[A]

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