Is the GOP Starting to Defy Trump?

Summary

Radio Atlantic: “Is the GOP Starting to Defy Trump?”

Date: June 4, 2026
Host: Hanna Rosen
Main Guests: Russell Berman (Atlantic Staff Writer), Indiana State Senator Jim Paul Buck

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Episode Overview

This episode of Radio Atlantic tackles a pressing question in American politics: Is the Republican Party beginning to meaningfully resist Donald Trump’s dominance—both at the national level and in the states? Through the personal story of Indiana State Senator Jim Paul Buck and analysis from The Atlantic's Russell Berman, the show explores what drives moments of GOP defiance, what the consequences are, and what all this means for American democracy as the Trump era continues to unfold.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Republican Dilemma: Bucking Trump Has Consequences

• The episode opens with Hanna Rosen narrating the "superhero story" archetype—the lone individual standing up to a force much bigger than them ([00:20]).
  • Quote: “In American politics in the last few years, the bucks have not been winning. And the bucks I'm mainly referring to here are Republicans who speak up against the leader of their party because they think what he's saying does not make much sense.” (Hanna Rosen, [00:20])
• Russell Berman sets the national stage, noting that resistance to Trump is rare and typically met with swift and severe penalties:
  • Trump endorsed against sitting GOP senators John Cornyn (TX) and Bill Cassidy (LA), leading to their primary defeats ([01:18])
  • This pattern also appeared in Kentucky with Congressman Thomas Massie ([01:18]).

2. A Crisis of Conscience in Indiana

• Indiana’s Republican-majority Senate faced enormous internal and external pressure to approve a Trump-backed redistricting plan, which would have secured two more GOP seats ([02:38]).
• Despite intimidating tactics and the threat of retribution, state senators—including Buck—rejected the map ([02:38]-[03:53]).
  • Insight: Speaking out against Trump is less about political calculation and more about personal safety and conscience. Some remain silent for fear of harm to themselves or family ([03:53]).

3. Senator Jim Paul Buck: Why Stand Alone?

• Hanna Rosen’s interview with Buck delves into his moral calculus ([05:00]–[06:55]):
  • Quote: “It boils down to what’s your priorities as a public servant.” (Sen. Jim Paul Buck, [05:57])
  • Buck emphasizes loyalty to "we the people" and serving constituents above party or presidential pressure ([06:12]).
  • He distinguishes between being “comfortable” with his vote and the real physical and psychological discomfort of threats:
    • Quote: “When you're threatened with your house being bombed, with your reputation being destroyed, that's not a comfortable environment ... I was very comfortable with the vote.” (Sen. Buck, [07:06])

4. Escalating Pressure from Trumpworld

• Pressure to conform came not just from party peers, but from the White House itself ([09:09]):
  • Calls from President Trump, VP Pence, and Governor Mike Braun; friends and close political allies warned Buck directly:
    • Quote: “They're going to destroy you. They're going to ruin your reputation if you vote no. ... People said literally those words ... It's like, if you want to compare it to the Mafia, we know where you live and we know where your kids go to school.” (Sen. Buck, [10:20]–[10:43])
  • Despite the apparent mafia-style threats, Buck insists on his duty: “If I ... succumb to this threat ... I shouldn’t be in this office.” ([10:43])

5. The Senate Floor Showdown

• Buck pushed through personal illness to vote, cheered by colleagues for his fortitude ([12:01]).
  • Ultimately, the Trump-backed redistricting bill failed, 19 ayes to 31 noes ([13:55]).
  • Senator Michael Young, who voted for the bill, warns his anti-Trump colleagues that “when they come into your districts ... with two to three million dollars ... I know you’ll try your best, ... but I believe in the end, most of you won’t be here anymore. And that takes courage.” ([13:13])

6. Retribution and the Price of Defiance

• Trump calls on social media to “primary” the GOP senators who voted against his wishes ([14:49]).
• In Indiana, Buck loses his primary in a landslide to Trump-endorsed Tracy Powell ([19:53]).
  • Quote: “No one ever in Indiana’s history has had this kind of money thrown at them in a primary. In my race, it’s alleged $1.3 million ... How do you fight back?” (Sen. Buck, [16:33])
• Former VP Mike Pence, himself no stranger to Trump’s wrath, offers Buck a rare endorsement, out of loyalty and shared experience ([18:26]).

7. Democracy, Defeat, and Resilience

• Even in defeat, Buck finds hope in the democratic process ([20:12]):
  • Quote: “This is a good day because we believe strongly in democracy. We believe strongly in the ballot box.” (Sen. Buck, [21:32])
  • He deflects regret over his choices:
    • Quote: “Well, I wish I'd never had to go through it. ... But any regrets about how you went through it, your decisions? No, no, no.” ([22:54]-[23:14])

8. National Perspective: Normal Politics or Trump Exceptionalism?

• Rosen and Berman reflect on whether this period signals a true return to “normal” politics, or if Trump’s strength and willingness to push institutional boundaries means this is no ordinary time ([23:46]):
  • Quote: “Trump is still this really dominant figure within his party. ... There is still a question about whether he's going to be a traditional ... lame duck president ... or whether he's going to be exceptional.” (Russell Berman, [23:46])
• They conclude that the future remains nebulous: we see “normal politics and a normal sort of democracy happening right now”, but Trump’s legacy and influence may still shake those norms ([25:15]).

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On threats from party insiders:
  • “They're going to destroy you. They're going to ruin your reputation if you vote no.”
    – Sen. Jim Paul Buck, [10:20]
• On the meaning of public service:
  • “If you lose sight of we the people, and start paying attention to individuals that outrank you ... the end is not going to be very pleasant.”
    – Sen. Jim Paul Buck, [06:12]
• On defeat and democratic faith:
  • “We are still a democratic republic. ... That's a good day.”
    – Sen. Jim Paul Buck, [21:56]
• On the lasting hold of Trump:
  • “Trump is still this really dominant figure within his party ... There is still a question...”
    – Russell Berman, [23:46]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:20–01:49: Introduction to 'Buck' figures in the GOP and the cost of resistance
• 02:38–04:56: The Indiana redistricting showdown and its consequences
• 05:00–08:26: Hanna Rosen interviews Jim Paul Buck about political conscience
• 09:09–10:43: Inside pressure from Trumpworld; mafia-style party threats
• 12:01–13:55: Buck’s dramatic vote on the Senate floor: solidarity, courage, and defeat
• 13:13: Senator Michael Young’s warning about political retribution
• 14:49–16:33: Trump’s direct calls for primary challenges and ensuing media blitz
• 18:26–19:33: Buck receives support from Mike Pence; solidarity among the punished
• 19:53–20:12: Election night loss and Buck’s response
• 21:32–22:54: Buck’s concession and defense of democracy
• 23:46–25:15: Analysis: Is this normal politics, or is Trump’s grip exceptional?

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Conclusion

Radio Atlantic uses the story of Jim Paul Buck’s resistance in Indiana to thread a wider tale of intimidation, personal conviction, defeat, and democratic persistence within the GOP today. The episode underscores how rare public defiance of Trump remains, the steep costs for those who try, and the uncertainties ahead for both the Republican Party and American political norms.

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Useful for listeners who missed the episode or want a comprehensive reflection on the GOP’s internal struggle between fear, loyalty, and principle.

Transcript

[The Atlantic Host/Announcer]

AI AI AI AI AI AI AI.

[Russell Berman]

Cut through the AI noise with AI solutions from pwc so you can solve the business problems that matter most.

[Indiana State Senate Clerk/Reporter]

Pwc.

[Hanna Rosen]

There is a way that an American superhero story, or really any hero story, is supposed to unfold. A lone individual, let's call him Buck, notices that something in the universe is not right. The little people are being menaced by dark force, a force with power, money, and very few moral inhibitions. Buck is just one person, but he has truth on his side. In American politics in the last few years, the bucks have not been winning. And the bucks I'm mainly referring to here are Republicans who speak up against the leader of their party because they think what he's saying does not make much sense.

[Russell Berman]

There is a lot of tension right now between Republicans in Congress, especially in the Senate, and President Trump. They're pretty much fed up with him at this point.

[Hanna Rosen]

This is Atlantic staff writer Russell Berman.

[Russell Berman]

And the most recent reason for that, of course, is that President Trump endorsed against two of their incumbents, which is pretty unheard of. He endorsed against Senator John Cornyn in Texas, who lost. He endorsed against Senator Bill Cassidy in Louisiana, who lost. We saw this, of course, in Kentucky, where Congressman Thomas Massie, who was Trump's probably least favorite Republican congressman, who was a thorn in the side. It was a very expensive race and he lost. So Trump clearly still has power within the Republican Party.

[Hanna Rosen]

When Republicans have spoken out against Trump, this has typically been their fate. They are starkly reminded that resistance is is not an option until very recently. And we begin with breaking news at 4. South Carolina lawmakers are shutting down a major redistricting plan backed by President Trump.

[The Atlantic Host/Announcer]

And President Trump's primary endorsement streak hit a roadblock last night. His pick for Iowa's GOP gubernatorial nominee is projected to narrowly lose out to conservative Zach Lon.

[Indiana State Senate Clerk/Reporter]

Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche said today that the Justice Department is scrapping plans to create that $1.8 billion so called anti weaponization fund. It's a setback for President Trump after Republican senators made clear they did not have the votes to advance a Homeland Security funding bill.

[Hanna Rosen]

I'm Hanna Rosen. This is Radio Atlantic. Today on the show, we are taking a closer look at that cycle of intimidation and fear and why some people resist and others don't. In this current moment of both revenge and defiance, I thought back to an earlier showdown in Indiana. Trump put tremendous pressure on state senators to appro a new map that would have added two Republican seats. But Republican state senators overwhelmingly rejected that map and payback came swiftly. Last month, many of those Republican senators, conservative senators, who were otherwise pro Trump lost their primary. I mean, having covered Indiana and watching this right now unfold nationally, where you're finally seeing people start to push back, do you have a sense yourself of how an individual decides to push back? Like, even in Indiana, like, did you gain any insight why some people or why in some moments resistance develops and why sometimes it just can't?

[Indiana State Senate Clerk/Reporter]

Right.

[Russell Berman]

It varies a lot. It's very interesting to see. You know, I did a story. I talked to one senator who wanted to tell his story. He had been swatted. He was not running for reelection, but he still did not want to put his name out there. And it was not because he feared the political consequences, because, again, he wasn't running for reelection. He feared for the safety of himself and his family. And so there was, you could see that internal battle even in his own mind, between wanting to speak up, to resist. Right. But also to preserve his own safety. And then you saw other senators who did speak up and who felt so compelled, they were so sort of put off by what was going on that they did speak up, you know, in interviews, but on the Senate floor, very emotionally. And you see that. I think Indiana is not unique. Right. This is what we've seen nationally.

[Hanna Rosen]

Any questions for me before we get started about the substance of the thing?

[Indiana State Senator Jim Paul Buck]

No, we'll just take it as it goes.

[Hanna Rosen]

Okay. All right. And do you want me to refer to you as. One of the reasons I wanted to call you, the main reason is, you know, you're in Indiana, I'm in Washington, and here in D.C. at a national level, we've seen a lot of people agree to things or do things when the president asked them to. And maybe they didn't necessarily believe in those things or think those were the right things, but a lot of people do them anyway. And I've just been wondering why most people do that, and then some people just can't do that. And so that's really, actually the insight I would love from you. Do you have any insight into why, like, why you didn't. You couldn't just do it when a lot of other people do?

[Indiana State Senator Jim Paul Buck]

I guess it boils down to what's your priorities as a public servant.

[Hanna Rosen]

This is Buck, Indiana State Senator Jim Paul Buck. Buck was one of the state senators who was against redistricting last year.

[Indiana State Senator Jim Paul Buck]

I mean, I go back, if you're a history buff, how much our country depended and should still depend on we the people. If you lose sight of we the people, and start paying attention to individuals that outrank you. From my perspective, the end is not going to be very pleasant. And I've always felt comfortable in listening to the people I represent, whether when I was in the House or now in the Senate.

[Hanna Rosen]

You used the word comfortable. It didn't seem comfortable. I mean, the whole situation seemed pretty uncomfortable. I mean, people talked about death threats, all kinds of things. So what do you mean by comfortable?

[Indiana State Senator Jim Paul Buck]

Comfortable, by the way, I was going to vote. Now, if you're talking about the circumstances prior to and after that, yeah, there were times that was pretty uncomfortable physically. But when you're threatened with your house being bombed, with your reputation being destroyed, that's not a comfortable environment. So there's two different views. I didn't want to conflict that. The whole episode's been comfortable. I was very comfortable with the vote.

[Hanna Rosen]

Comfortable, meaning you didn't have to.

[Indiana State Senator Jim Paul Buck]

It was the right decision. It was the right decision.

[Hanna Rosen]

And when Buck actually saw the maps

[Indiana State Senator Jim Paul Buck]

for himself, I never thought they would stand a court challenge. It was gerrymandered, unbelievably.

[Hanna Rosen]

So when you looked at the map, what was your first thought? Just looking at the map.

[Indiana State Senator Jim Paul Buck]

This is nuts.

[Hanna Rosen]

And yet the calls for Buck and others to change their minds about those maps, they weren't just coming from his constituents. They were coming from inside the House, from his own party.

[Russell Berman]

Those opposed say redistricting in the middle of a decade is breaking with tradition. They say we are changing the rules to them. I say this. When your house is on fire, you don't worry about whether or not you're traditionally holding the hose the right way. You do whatever it takes to put out the fire.

[Hanna Rosen]

And then the pressure started coming from inside an even bigger house, the White House.

[Indiana State Senator Jim Paul Buck]

The president called us, the governor called us, the vice president. We met with him twice. Our lieutenant governor.

[The Atlantic Host/Announcer]

CBS4 is your local election headquarters. Indiana Governor Mike Braun says he's. He stands with President Donald Trump in getting state lawmakers to redistrict. Now the president sharply criticizing the Indiana Senate for refusing to take up redistricting.

[Indiana State Senator Jim Paul Buck]

The beauty of the. If you want to call it beauty. The president and the vice president never made personal threats, but it was the underlings that were closest to me that had. I'd known as friends, served with that, let me know in no uncertain terms. They're going to destroy you. They're going to ruin your reputation if you vote no. Well, a comment like that, you've got to try to think, what form is that going to take?

[Hanna Rosen]

Wait, are you being literal? Like People said literally those words, or they imply.

[Indiana State Senator Jim Paul Buck]

Oh, literally. Literally.

[Hanna Rosen]

They are going to destroy you.

[Indiana State Senator Jim Paul Buck]

Yep. And ruin your reputation. Straight on.

[Hanna Rosen]

In person. People said that to you in person? That's like, from a Mafia movie. So what did you.

[Indiana State Senator Jim Paul Buck]

There's a lot of scenarios here with Mafia movies.

[Hanna Rosen]

What did you take that to mean? Like, were there specifics?

[Indiana State Senator Jim Paul Buck]

No, that's the generality. It's like, if you want to compare it to the Mafia, we know where you live and we know where your kids go to school. Well, you can try to fill in the blanks, but there's only so many blanks to fill in before you decide. I either succumb to this threat, and if I do, I shouldn't be in this office. I'm in this office because people trusted me. So I ought to vote in the way they view me as being a good custodian of their vote.

[Indiana State Senate Clerk/Reporter]

Senator Gaskill calls House Bill 1032 for the third reading. Clerk will read Bill Vernon's recollections. Chair recognizes Senator Gaskill to present the bill.

[Hanna Rosen]

On December 11, the Indiana State Senate gathered to vote on the redistricting Bill.

[Russell Berman]

Thank you, Mr. President.

[Indiana State Senate Clerk/Reporter]

Members of the Senate, I bring to you House Bill 1032 for consideration.

[Russell Berman]

It's a bill to redraw the congressional maps of Indiana.

[Hanna Rosen]

Buck, who'd actually been in the hospital during this time, convinced his doctors to let him leave to cast his vote.

[Indiana State Senator Jim Paul Buck]

I was on the Senate caucus at noon. I got a round of applause from my caucus members because they knew what I'd been through. And that was the only thing on the floor at the time, was that vote.

[Indiana State Senate Clerk/Reporter]

All right. This bill is now placed on its passage, and the machine is open for voting.

[Indiana State Senator Jim Paul Buck]

And I remember casting the vote. Grateful that I was there, grateful that the constituents had put trust in me to vote no, and grateful that my lovely wife would drive me home like the doctors demanded.

[Hanna Rosen]

But before the last vote was cast, State Senator Michael Young, who would end up voting in favor of the redistricting, got up to the podium and asked to speak on the record.

[State Senator Michael Young]

Thank you, Mr. President. Members of the Senate, real quick.

[Hanna Rosen]

He expressed disappointment and frustration that this bill would fail. And then he left his colleagues who'd voted against it with a final parting thought.

[State Senator Michael Young]

I love you guys here. There's nobody I dislike. Some of my best people are not even conservative. I know what's about to happen to some of my friends in this chamber. You can believe it or not. You can believe it or not. But when they come into your districts, and I'm not lying with two to three million dollars. I know you'll try your best. You'll do what you can. But I believe in the end, most of you won't be here anymore. And that takes courage to give up your seat when you have an opportunity to help your country. So God bless United States of America.

[Indiana State Senate Clerk/Reporter]

All right, the machine is now closed. Clerk will tally the roll. 19 ayes, 31 noes. This bill has been defeated. No. Please stay quiet in the gallery.

[State Senator Michael Young]

Thank you.

[Hanna Rosen]

So you weren't surprised when it failed?

[Indiana State Senator Jim Paul Buck]

No.

[Hanna Rosen]

And did you feel hopeful when it failed? Like, did you feel proud, hopeful, like the right thing had happened? How did you.

[Indiana State Senator Jim Paul Buck]

Yes, I think what you said is concise. The right thing happened.

[Hanna Rosen]

Mm. And did you yourself feel nervous about what kind of repercussions there would be?

[Indiana State Senator Jim Paul Buck]

Well, to be honest, that particular day, my main concern was getting home. I didn't have a chance to think. I was thinking more about my own health at that point. And then it hit later.

[Russell Berman]

President Trump calling out Indiana Republican state senators who voted against redistricting, saying overnight in a true social post that they should be primaried.

[Indiana State Senate Clerk/Reporter]

The effort failed this week with a vote of 30.

[Hanna Rosen]

That's after the break.

[Indiana State Senator Jim Paul Buck]

Foreign.

[Grant Hill]

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[Hanna Rosen]

In January, about four months before Jim Buck's primary to keep his seat, President Trump posted on Truth Social that he would be throwing his support behind Buck's opponent, Tracy Powell. Trump called Buck a, quote, pathetic rhino, which is short for Republican in name only. And he wrote that Buck had, quote, failed the wonderful people of Indiana so badly. Buck has been in the state legislature for more than 30 years, made a home in Indiana with his wife Judy and their five daughters. He'd supported Trump his in all of his past presidential campaigns. So he wasn't quite ready for what followed.

[Indiana State Senator Jim Paul Buck]

Nobody thought that we would be under this kind of media blitz that was nothing but pure bold face lies. I mean, anybody that knew me knew I was one of the most conservative senators in the Indiana Senate. Anybody that knew me knew I was not a liberal. Anybody that knew me knew I wasn't a Rhino. Anybody that knew me knew I Wasn't pathetic. But if you tell a lie enough times, even in the political world, perception becomes reality. No one ever in Indiana's history has had this kind of money thrown at them in a primary. In my race, it's alleged $1.3 million. That's a hill to climb that's never been climbed before. So it's totally uncharted territory. How do you fight back?

[Hanna Rosen]

Powell, Buck's opponent, had the support and funding of outside groups and the endorsement of President Trump. Meanwhile, Buck had found an endorsement from another familiar name, someone who'd been close to Trump and had found himself in a similar situation once before.

[Indiana State Senator Jim Paul Buck]

Mike Pence has been a friend of ours for years. Mike called me wanting to know how things were going, and I said, well, God's still in charge. And he wanted to know what he could do to help me. Well, I said, mike, I was told you aren't endorsing anybody. Well, he said, who told you that? I said, well, that's just my understanding. Well, I said, if you'd endorse me, I'd love it. Well, he said, I'll tell you, like I've told others now, that endorsement can go both ways. And I said, mike, friendship and loyalty mean the world to me. I said, I'll stand with you no matter what. I said, I understand 1-6-more now than I did then, but I said, be delighted to have your endorsement. So now we just live in that era where you really don't know who your friends are anymore.

[Hanna Rosen]

Pence had paid a political price, just as buck would.

[Indiana State Senate Clerk/Reporter]

The 2026 Indiana primary is making history, ousting more state Senate incumbents in one night than in the past quarter century combined. Most of the candidates had challengers endorsed by President Trump last month.

[Hanna Rosen]

Buck lost to Powell by nearly 30%. It was a blowout.

[Indiana State Senate Clerk/Reporter]

And, wow, has Powell. Absolutely. He's not just beaten Buck, he has clobbered him tonight. And you've been watching these results come

[Hanna Rosen]

in and you've seen it on election night. Did you expect the results? How did you hear them?

[Indiana State Senator Jim Paul Buck]

Well, for those of us who've been at it a while, you get a tenor of what's coming. And the early results weren't very favorable. But like I told Judy when we went, I said, remember this, win or lose, God's still in control. This is not our office, it's the people's office. And so that's the way we viewed it. Disappointed? Yes, because I love the Senate and I love my colleagues, and I love what I've been able to accomplish in the Senate. But there was a point where Judy and I like to hold hands a lot. I squeezed her hands and I said, well, we think we know what our speech is going to be later. I do want to let you know this straight up. God's good. He doesn't make any mistakes. And when you put your trust and faith in him, every day is coming your way is a good day. This is a good day because we believe strongly in democracy. We believe strongly in the ballot box.

[Hanna Rosen]

We listened to your concession speech. One phrase that struck me is you said, this is a good day.

[Indiana State Senator Jim Paul Buck]

Yeah.

[Hanna Rosen]

Why was it a good day? I mean, from everything you've said up to this point, the wrong thing happened that day. The people who stood up for what they believed in, the people who looked at the maps and saw the truth, lost their races. So what do you mean by this is a good day?

[Indiana State Senator Jim Paul Buck]

Well, we are still a democratic republic. We are still a free people. And anytime you can have in this country or any country where people can freely go to the polls and vote as they perceive their vote to be for their good, and then you get to see the results of that free and open election, my friend. That's a good day. That's a good day.

[Hanna Rosen]

Do you have any regrets about how you went through this?

[Indiana State Senator Jim Paul Buck]

Well, I wish I'd never had to go through it. I can't imagine anybody saying, oh, you know, this was a real treat. I'd love to do it again.

[Hanna Rosen]

But any regrets about how you went through it, Your decisions, my decision?

[Indiana State Senator Jim Paul Buck]

No, no, no.

[Hanna Rosen]

Russell, we spoke to Jim Buck, who is one of those Indiana state senators who voted no on redistricting and then lost. Although he did end on this hopeful thought, which is, you know, democracy will win out. Does that strike you as realistic? Pollyannaish, Given where we are now, it

[Russell Berman]

strikes me as both. Is that possible to say totally yes and yes, Right. Because in the realistic sense that, yes, he's right. Is that. Look at what's happening. We're seeing sort of normal politics happen, or Trump is unpopular. You know, he has less juice in the Senate, so to speak. The Republicans are likely to lose at least some power, which means the president will lose some power in the midterm elections. We're hearing less and less talk of President Trump running for a third time. But in another respect, as we've talked about, Trump, you know, is still this really dominant figure within his party. This gerrymandering war and what the Supreme Court has done could end up protecting some of his in a lot of his power. And so there is still a question about whether he's going to be a traditional, typical lame duck president as we get into the last two years of his term, which would be sort of the normal democratic way, at least as we know it in this country, or whether he's going to be exceptional. Right. And he's going to continue to push the bounds, for example, of executive authority ignoring Congress, going around the courts in a way that makes people feel like he's an authoritarian. And so I think it's still a little bit unclear, but we are seeing a lot of normal politics and a normal sort of democracy happening right now.

[Hanna Rosen]

Russell, thank you so much for joining us.

[Russell Berman]

Thanks for having me.

[Hanna Rosen]

This episode of Radio Atlantic was produced by Janae West. It was edited by Kevin Townsend. Sam Fentress fact Checked. Rob Smirciak engineered and provided original music. We also had music from Breakmaster Cylinder. Claudina Baid is the Executive Producer of Atlantic Audio and Andrea Valdez is our Managing editor. Listeners, if you like the show, you can support our work and the work of all Atlantic journalists when you subscribe to The Atlantic. At theatlantic.com listener, I'm Hanna Rosen. Thank you for listening.

[The Atlantic Host/Announcer]

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