Unnamed Mossad Veteran (4:45)

Bring all of them back now.

Tamir Pardo (4:48)

No.

Hanna Rosen (4:52)

No, no. So those are the streets. And there's one more thing boiling over. Something fairly new in Israeli society which makes this anger at Netanyahu in the war seem wider than usual, is coming from the military itself. Veterans of the Israeli Defense Force, pilots, medics, military leaders en masse from everywhere have been asking Netanyahu to stop the war. In April, more than 250 veterans of the Mossad, which is Israel's equivalent to the CIA, signed an open letter asking Netanyahu to bring the hostages home, even if that means ending the war. Spies don't usually sign open anything. This letter included three former Mossad chiefs, and while I was in Israel, I sat down with one of them.

Tamir Pardo (5:52)

We are already 600 days after October 7, and we have five divisions deployed in Gaza. And I don't see an end to that war. It's useless. It's accomplishing nothing. Nothing. I'm not talking about those people living or dying in Gaza. I'm talking about Israel. From Israel point of view. It's a waste of time, what we're doing. Waste of lives, waste of money, wasting the future.

Unnamed Mossad Veteran (6:31)

This is Tamir Pardo. He's 72 and retired now, but he spent his life in the Mossad, which He ran between 2011 and 2016. He was running the agency when it began placing booby trapped walkie talkies into Lebanon and reportedly planned a string of high profile assassinations of Iranian nuclear scientists. In other words, he spent his life fighting against terrorism, exactly what Netanyahu's government claims to be doing in Gaza. So in theory, he very much believes in the mission.

Tamir Pardo (7:04)

The responsibility of the Mossad is to avoid our enemies, to obtain nuclear weapons, whoever they are, wherever they are. My responsibility was to stop any terrorist attempt against Israelis that are outside the State of Israel or from terrorists that are trying to hit us from abroad.

Hanna Rosen (7:32)

That description, vague as it is, cements a certain image of deterring terrorism, but not endless fighting. One thing Pardo said to me over and over again is something he thinks Netanyahu has forgotten. War is not the end game.

Tamir Pardo (7:51)

At the end of the day, when I'm thinking about my children, my grandchildren, I would like that they're going to live in a safe country, but in a peaceful country. And in order to achieve peace, from time to time, you have to use your sword. But don't think that you can solve the problem with your sword. What's happening here now, in Israel, it's insane.

Hanna Rosen (8:16)

The exact meaning of insanity changes depending on who you ask. For many in the international community, even longtime allies of Israel, it's the situation on the ground in Gaza, the killing of civilians, the failure to deliver aid, the widespread starvation of innocent people. For many in Israel, it's the hostages. A promise between Israeli citizens and their government has always been that they will keep them safe, and if one of them should end up in danger, the government would rescue them. 600 days has crushed that promise. For Pardo, it's practical. War requires a goal. And Pardo doesn't believe that Netanyahu's stated goal of destroying Hamas is a realistic one. Certainly not if you also want to bring the hostages home.

Unnamed Mossad Veteran (9:07)

So Today is the 600th day that the hostages are held. There's protests everywhere. I was surprised when I got here. In Tel Aviv, all the streets say they've been renamed. Netanyahu is a traitor street. You know their posters. It's a very common position here to criticize Netanyahu. Why aren't the hostages home? In your opinion? Whose fault is that?

Tamir Pardo (9:36)

Our fault. Israel's fault. On October 8, it was 24 hours after October 7, and I said to my friends within the the old Boys Club, I said bring the hostages home now. Don't start a war. Negotiate and bring the 251 hostages home now. Then solve the problem. That was the biggest mistake of the state of Israel, because those hostages should have been released weeks after. You cannot defeat the Hamas and bring the hostages back on same priority. You have to choose. And our government preferred to kill than to bring the otters.

Unnamed Mossad Veteran (10:34)

Now, as someone whose job it was to fight terrorists, why is it so clear to you that the first priority shouldn't have been to fight the terrorists?

Tamir Pardo (10:46)

Because those people, children, women, civilians and soldiers as well, were kidnapped because of our fault as a state. The armed forces in every country is responsible for the safety of those civilians who are living in the country. And this war, the results of October 7th was because our armed forces, they failed to do it. Now bring them back and then punish those who did it. And I'm saying punishing, not revenge. Different.

Unnamed Mossad Veteran (11:37)

What's the difference?

Tamir Pardo (11:39)

I don't believe in revenge. You have to punish and you have to find out and kill all those who did what they did on October 7th. Okay, full stop. You don't have to destroy Gaza because it's meaningless. I think that we are creating in the last 20 months, we are creating more problems that we are solving at the end of the day. Okay, yes, okay. We killed 70, 90% of those, let's say, terrorists that are living in Gaza, but we killed many more civilians. And the day after, when we see that day after starts, we can have a very big problem there in Gaza, because I think that when you're going to have 2.1 million people that don't have no housing, no job, no water, no electricity, no health care system, we will have to solve the problem. No one else will have to solve it. And then we are creating such a problem that I know how we were able to solve it. I am not expecting, let's say, Americans to solve the problem. I'm not expecting Egyptians to solve the problem. We are there, so we have to solve the problem.

Unnamed Mossad Veteran (13:12)

And you created the problem.

Tamir Pardo (13:14)

And we created the problem.

Unnamed Mossad Veteran (13:16)

So recently you signed an open letter saying end war in Gaza, as did hundreds of other Mossad, Shin Bet generals. Have you seen that level of open protest before? Does something feel different about that to you?

Tamir Pardo (13:33)

Yeah, that's the first time that it's happening in Israel.

Unnamed Mossad Veteran (13:36)

First time that what?

Hanna Rosen (13:37)

What?

Unnamed Mossad Veteran (13:38)

Exactly.

Tamir Pardo (13:40)

Yet so many veterans that, with their experience, are watching what's happening here in Israel, and there is an understanding that we are taking the wrong path. We are creating a damage, a huge damage to the state of Israel. Okay, by what we're doing, we are accomplishing nothing.

Hanna Rosen (14:07)

After the break, Pardo explains what he thinks is the real reason Netanyahu is staying in this war.

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Hanna Rosen (15:12)

In the street protests, there's one particular chant that comes up over and over. Until they're back, we're all hostages. It's easy to understand why the family and friends of any individual hostage are raging in the streets at their government for failing to rescue the person they love. But to understand why the average Israeli so deeply identifies with the hostages, why they are still out protesting 600 days later, you have to go back into Israeli history. In the first decades of its existence, Israel was regularly at War. The 1948 Arab Israeli War, Suez War, Six Day War, the Yom Kippur War. And then in 1976, a terrorist event happened that in many ways still defines the relationship between Israelis and their government.

Unnamed News Anchor (16:21)

Palestinian hijackers are still holding more than 250 hostages and an Air France jet. At Enaby Airport in Uganda, a flight.

Unnamed Mossad Veteran (16:29)

From Tel Aviv to Paris was hijacked. The plane and its hostages were taken to Idi Amin's Uganda.

Unnamed News Anchor (16:36)

101 hostages released today were flown to Paris, but another 110 are still being held at the airport at Entebbe, Uganda, about 85 of them Israeli nationals. The Palestinian hijackers with some non Arab accomplices now say they will execute the hostages on Sunday unless their demands are met.

Hanna Rosen (16:57)

In what was a rare approach for the time, but afterwards became a global counterterrorism model, IDF commandos raided the airport and rescued the hostages.

Unnamed News Anchor (17:07)

The daring Israeli raid into Uganda still leaves Unanswered many questions. Political leaders and editorialists over most of the Western world and some of Asia were delighted with Israel's bold and successful rescue of the civilian hostages in Uganda.

Hanna Rosen (17:28)

The details of the operation are extraordinary. Huge planes flying low over the Red Sea, two Land Rovers and a Mercedes painted black to pose as IDI Amin's presidential convoy. And Israeli soldiers operating thousands of miles from home with no hope of backup. The only member of the IDF team killed was Yonatan Netanyahu, leader of the raid and the older brother of Benjamin Netanyahu. The story of his brother's death became a key point in Netanyahu's political rise. It was also a key moment in Tamir Pardo's life. When I was asking him how well he knew the Prime Minister, he said.

Tamir Pardo (18:09)

I knew his oldest brother, Yonatan Yahu, that he was my commander unit that I served in 1976. Unfortunately, he was killed less than 1ft.

Hanna Rosen (18:20)

From me on Entebbe raid inside Israel. The raid at Entebbe cemented a promise. Yes, Israeli citizens are always vulnerable to terrorist attacks, but the government will always, always rescue them, no matter how hard they are to reach. For many Israelis October 7th broke that promise.

Tamir Pardo (18:42)

What happened in 1976? People were kidnapped. Not because of. We neglected something, we forgot something. October 7th is because we broke our obligation towards our people. The state of Israel betrayed the first thing that the IDF exists for, to defend our civil people. What happened there was a disaster. There were 2,000 people that managed to break into Israel because we neglected our duty. And that's the reason when you did it, you have to pay the price. And the first price you have to pay is bringing them home and then find a way to solve the problem using the stick, but only after bringing them home.

Hanna Rosen (19:38)

Pardo has decades of calculating when and how to use lethal aggression and to what end. And here's how he does the math on this war.

Tamir Pardo (19:47)

I remember before the war, and you can go and check the figures. IDF, Israel Defense Forces estimated that they are between 20 and 25,000 people that can use weapons in Gaza. Nine months ago, the military spokesman said that more than 17,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. So think about how many were wounded. Let's assume that another 6,000 were wounded. And we know that more than 3,000 were were in prison in Israel. We captured. So actually the job was finished. We killed all the generals, the leaders there, the commander of brigades, platoon, whatever. Okay, so those who are still there, the vast, vast majority are those who were recruited after the war started. And they don't have any experience, but they can hold a Kalashnikov, an AK47, and kill a soldier here and there. But the main power, 90% of the power, was finished more than nine months ago.

Unnamed Mossad Veteran (21:08)

So, enough, enough.

Tamir Pardo (21:11)

At the end of the day, the Hamas is not only a military power, terrorist power, okay? It's a political power as well. So thinking that you can erase political power by a military attack, that's wrong. That's wrong. And every civilian that is killed today, his brother, his son, his. His father, will hold the gun tomorrow.

Hanna Rosen (21:45)

And so why didn't it unfold that way? Again, Pardo is blunt.

Tamir Pardo (21:50)

So I think that our Prime Minister today is trying to solve his personal problems. Not our problems, his problems. And that was what he's doing from the first day that he was indicted, from the first day for his trial. And he is not thinking about Israel as a state.

Hanna Rosen (22:10)

Netanyahu was indicted on charges of bribery, fraud and breach of trust in three separate but related cases. The Prime Minister has denied any wrongdoing and says it's a witch hunt. The trial is still ongoing and has distorted Israeli politics in so many ways, one of them being the war in Gaza. There's criticism that Netanyahu has an incentive to keep the war going, to distract from and delay his own problems, to keep lots of wars going. In fact, Pardo's not sure that Netanyahu even has any post war strategy anywhere.

Tamir Pardo (22:46)

What is your post war strategy in Lebanon? What is your post war strategy in Syria? What is your strategy versus Iran? Okay, Using the stick. Using the stick. Thinking that by using the stick, you're going to solve problems, it's wrong.

Unnamed Mossad Veteran (23:07)

You need to negotiate.

Tamir Pardo (23:09)

Exactly. In order to solve problems, you need to negotiate. Negotiate. When you have a stick in your hand, use the stick if it's needed. But understand, at the end of the day, you should negotiate for an agreement. The point is that our government believes in using the sticks. Not one stick. Sticks.

Unnamed Mossad Veteran (23:35)

It is unusual for a Mossad veteran to be so outspokenly critical against the government, but maybe not in this case, surprising. Ehud Olmert, who's a former prime minister of Israel, last week accused his country of committing war crimes. Yair Golan, the main opposition leader, accused the government of killing babies for sport or as a hobby. That one got the most attention outside and inside Israel, even as Golan tried to walk the statement back. Yair Golan famously said, killing babies for.

Tamir Pardo (24:10)

Sport, that was awful.

Hanna Rosen (24:12)

State that was awful.

Tamir Pardo (24:14)

And it was wrong.

Unnamed Mossad Veteran (24:17)

That one went too far. Why?

Tamir Pardo (24:18)

It's not too far. It's wrong.

Unnamed Mossad Veteran (24:22)

What do you mean?

Tamir Pardo (24:24)

No one, even Small Turkey and Benvir are not killing babies for fun. Okay? I don't agree. They're fascists. They are the KKK in Israel, they're fascists, but they are not killing. Even fascists in Israel are not killing babies for fun.

Hanna Rosen (24:43)

Let me give you some clarity about who he's talking about here. Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich and National Security Minister Itamar Bengvir. They are, as Atlantic contributor Gershom Gorenberg put it recently, quote, the leading extremists in Israel's most right wing government in history. They're both west bank settlers and they both want Israel to reoccupy all of Gaza, to renew Israeli settlements there and to, quote, encourage Palestinians to emigrate.

Unnamed Mossad Veteran (25:13)

Do you believe these are war crimes?

Tamir Pardo (25:19)

Look, I hope not. I hope not. But fighting in a place like Gaza, 364 square kilometers in this small place, does squeeze more than 2 million people. Fighting using all warfare capabilities, many civilians are getting killed. Unfortunately, that arisen in war. In such a place, it should be very, very short. War short. Short because as time is passing, many, many more civilians getting killed, many more civilians lose their part of their families, losing their homes, losing everything. And to conduct a war for 20 months in such a small place, bad things are happening.

Unnamed Mossad Veteran (26:23)

It would be hard to avoid a war crime.

Tamir Pardo (26:27)

It's going to be very hard, okay? And that's what worries us. Should worry every Israeli.

Hanna Rosen (26:41)

I asked Pardo to sum up what he thinks should happen next.

Tamir Pardo (26:47)

Stop the war. Stop the war. Because it leads you to nowhere.

Hanna Rosen (26:56)

This episode of Radio Atlantic was produced by Kevin Townsend and Rosie Hughes. It was edited by Claudina Baid. We had engineering support from Rob Smirciak and fact checking by Michelle Sirocca. Claudina Baid is the executive producer of Atlantic Audio and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor. Listeners, if you like what you hear on Radio Atlantic, you can support our work and the work of all Atlantic journalists when you subscribe to The Atlantic. At theatlantic.com listener, I'm Hanna Rosen. Talk to you next.