Never Trump, Still a Republican

Summary

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Radio Atlantic – "Never Trump, Still a Republican" (August 10, 2026)

Episode Overview

In this episode, Adam Harris interviews Jeff Flake, former Republican U.S. senator and ambassador, known for his principled stance against the Trump-era transformation of the GOP. The conversation explores the Republican Party’s evolution, the endurance of political principle, divided government, the prospects for a post-Trump era, and the current shortcomings of American political institutions. Flake, despite endorsing Democrats like Jon Ossoff, maintains his Republican identity, expresses hope for the party’s return to its traditional values, and discusses why he believes the “fever” of populism will eventually break.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Moral Roots of Political Identity

• Character in Politics (03:25–05:03)

  • Flake defines character as respect for the institution, willingness to admit truth (such as accepting election results), and the capacity to work across the aisle.

  • He cites Jon Ossoff’s bipartisan work and constituent service as key reasons for his endorsement, contrasting with Ossoff’s opponent’s refusal to acknowledge legitimate election outcomes.

    “I have a hard time with people who simply won’t admit the obvious... that, I think, doesn’t speak well for character.” – Jeff Flake (04:08)

2. Frustration with Party and Populism

• The 2017 Speech & Party Dynamics (05:03–06:27)

  • Flake recalls his 2017 Senate floor speech decrying “anger and resentment as a governing strategy.”

  • He laments the party’s ongoing deference to Trump, with few Republicans willing to challenge party orthodoxy unless leaving office.

    "Anger and grievance are not a governing philosophy." – Jeff Flake (05:35)

  • He expresses preference for divided government as a check fostering fiscal responsibility.

3. Migration Away from Trumpism

• Consequences of Stubbornness (06:27–08:15)

  • Flake anticipates Republicans leaving the Trump-aligned GOP, noting Trump’s imitators underperform, especially in traditionally red states like Arizona and Georgia.

  • He points to policy failures in tariffs and foreign policy as evidence of waning support.

    "...the president's imitators have not done well." – Jeff Flake (06:52)

4. Loyalty to Republican Identity

• Reconciling Principle with Party (08:15–09:03)

  • Despite his critiques, Flake declares continued allegiance to the Republican Party, hoping for a return to traditional conservative values: limited government, economic freedom, individual responsibility, and strong American global leadership.

  • He highlights recent Senate votes supporting NATO and Ukraine as signs of these values persisting.

    “I'm hoping that the party returns to its previous ... tenets of limited government, economic freedom, individual responsibility, strong American leadership abroad.” – Jeff Flake (08:21)

5. The Futility and Hope of Moderation

• The Trouble with Primaries (09:03–11:09)

  • Flake argues that the U.S. remains “a center-right country,” but candidate selection skews extreme because primary voters are a small, highly motivated subset.

  • He speculates that a centrist Democratic resurgence (via figures like Ossoff) could force Republicans to move back to the middle.

  • Harris challenges this, citing progressive victories among Democrats as evidence that even the left is moving away from the center.

    "...you only have a subset of a subset of a subset that votes in Republican primaries. You have a similar issue on the Democratic side, not as pronounced perhaps, but that just puts all the political incentives to, you know, drive to the extremes." – Jeff Flake (09:41)

    "When you're looking at primaries, although there was increased turnout certainly in Michigan, it's still a subset of a subset that are determining who the nominee is." – Jeff Flake (11:16)

6. Will the “Fever” Break? – Signs of Hope and Realism

• Decorum, Division, and Leadership (14:05–18:01)

  • Flake expresses optimism that the Trumpian “fever” will eventually subside, recalling bipartisan unity at Lindsey Graham’s funeral as a rare but hopeful moment.

  • He underscores the importance of leadership and institutional repair, though he’s realistic that the fragmented modern media landscape makes consensus harder to achieve.

    "I came away from this week even more firmly believing that, you know, this fever will break. When you look around the country as well, I still think you see that phenomenon that the president's imitators don't do as well as he does. So I'm hopeful that fever will break." – Jeff Flake (15:45)

  • Flake acknowledges that unity after tragedy is fleeting, but leadership attuned to the nation’s “better angels” could help heal divides.

7. Media and the Challenge of Returning to “Regular Order”

• Flake notes that many in Congress today lack experience in more collegial, bipartisan eras, and that trust in institutions is undermined by fragmented media (“not going back to the way it was before where there are just a few trusted sources” – 16:57).
• Nevertheless, he reiterates the need and hope for inspirational leadership on both sides of the aisle.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Character as a Voting Criterion:

  "The more important thing is character... when your president loses an election and you're afraid to tell him, that, I think, doesn’t speak well for a character." – Jeff Flake (04:00)

• On Party Disarray:

  "Unfortunately, it hasn't gotten better... we've just kind of fallen in and decided that whatever the president wants, whatever the party wants, that's where we are." – Jeff Flake (05:33)

• On Prospects for Change:

  "Parties sometimes return as well. You see, parties flirt with populism and then return. And I'm hopeful that that's what you see now." – Jeff Flake (09:22)

• On the Media Environment:

  "It's going to be more difficult moving ahead, like I said, just because of the media environment, but it's not impossible." – Jeff Flake (17:55)

• On Personal Hope After Political Loss:

  "It's been one heck of a fever. It's been a long time in coming." – Jeff Flake (14:41)

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Key Timestamps & Segments

• 01:30–03:04: Introductions; Flake’s Ossoff endorsement and its reasoning rooted in character over ideology.
• 03:25–05:03: Flake on the traits of a moral candidate.
• 05:03–06:27: Reflection on the 2017 speech; party’s embrace of grievance politics.
• 06:27–08:15: On the consequences for GOP staying the Trump course; migration trends.
• 08:15–09:03: Flake affirms his Republican identification, hope for GOP’s future.
• 09:03–11:09: Discussion on party extremes and incentives of the primary system.
• 14:05–18:01: Flake reflects on national polarization, the limits of post-tragedy unity, and the importance of leadership and media.

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Closing Reflection

This episode offers a deeply personal, clear-eyed account of one Republican’s navigation through an era of political upheaval and ideological drift. Flake remains resolute in his principles and hopeful for his party, but he's also realistic about the entrenched structural and cultural challenges ahead. His insights provide valuable context to understanding political realignment, the lure and limits of the middle, and the urgent need for leadership “appealing to our better angels.”

For listeners seeking nuance over noise, Flake’s journey as a “Never Trump, Still a Republican” offers a compelling case study in loyalty, dissent, and the ongoing struggle to reclaim American political decency.

Transcript

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[Jeff Flake]

Almost.

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[Adam Harris]

What does it mean to continue identifying with the party if it's moved beyond the recognition of what it's been in the past? Which is sort of to say, are you hanging on to a party that isn't your party anymore?

[Jeff Flake]

That would be easy to say right now, but parties sometimes return as well. You see, parties flirt with populism and then return. And I'm hopeful that that's what you see now. Foreign

[Adam Harris]

I'm Adam Harris, this is Radio Atlantic and this week a conversation with former Republican U.S. senator and Ambassador Jeff Flake. We talk about the state of the Republican Party, the Senate, and what it means to be principled in politics. Flake is known for crossing party lines. Most recently he endorsed Georgia's Democratic Senator Jon Ossoff in his reelection campaign against Mike Collins. Collins, of course, is the Trump endorsed Republican congressman from Georgia. In announcing his endorsement, Flake told the Atlanta Journal Constitution that his decision boiled down to character, saying, quote, character is more important. I've been around long enough to know you'll disagree on issues with people across the aisle or sometimes in your party. But the more important thing is character, end quote. In 2017, Flake delivered a fiery speech where he announced that he would not run for another term in office.

[Jeff Flake]

There are times when we must risk our careers in favor of our principals. Now is such a time.

[Adam Harris]

He believed the shift in the Republican Party was temporary. He believed the fever would break. But it's been almost a decade since that speech. Does he still think that's possible? Ambassador Flake joins me now to discuss. Let's get to questions. Ambassador, thank you for joining me.

[Jeff Flake]

Hey, thanks for having me. On.

[Adam Harris]

What to you are the characteristics of a moral candidate, of a candidate with character?

[Jeff Flake]

Well, I want somebody who respects the institution of the Senate. And, you know, the Senate senators have always very jealously guarded their prerogative, you know, to push back against any president from their own party or not. That's just kind of been a hallmark of the Senate. You have six year terms, you're more independent, you have more roles than the House does. In terms of advice and consent, then two, I would fit in character as well. I have a hard time with people who simply won't admit the obvious. One, when your president loses an election and you're afraid to tell him, that, I think doesn't speak well for a character. So, yeah, in this case, we have that problem as well. Senator Ossoff's opponent simply won't admit and claims that President Trump won in Georgia and won the 2020 election. That doesn't speak well for character. Also with character, it's realizing in the Senate, too, with the special rules, the supermajority rules of filibuster, that you're a legislator, you work across the aisle. And I've seen Senator Ossoff do that on a number of occasions, sponsoring legislation and then constituent service as well. When I was ambassador in Turkey, I got calls from John Ossoff, but I got to know him then because he was advocating on behalf of some of his constituents. So, anyway, I've been impressed with him.

[Adam Harris]

I have to reference the speech from the Senate floor in 2017 because it was such a succinct articulation of Democratic values and principles. You argued in that speech that, quote, anger and resentment is not a governing strategy. And you took particular issue with your party's acquiescence in that. Regard. How has that dynamic changed at all in the years since, for better or worse?

[Jeff Flake]

Unfortunately, it hasn't gotten better in terms of my party and our willingness to stand up and actually govern. As I mentioned before, anger and grievance are not a governing philosophy. But we've just kind of fallen in and decided that whatever the president wants, whatever the party wants, that's where we are. And that, unfortunately, has not changed much. You see some people standing up when they're not running for reelection anymore or have been defeated in a primary, but we need to stand up more. That's why I, I like divided government. Being a fiscal conservative, I look back over the past few decades, and the only time we've really had good fiscal discipline is when we've had divided government. Republicans in particular act more responsible and act more as fiscal conservatives when sometimes we're in the minority.

[Adam Harris]

Do you think there will be consequences for the fact that things haven't gotten better? Do you think that there will be a migration away from the gop?

[Jeff Flake]

I do. I do. You know, Donald Trump has led a charmed existence politically, and he seems to be given a pass, you know, that others aren't given. And if you look around, his imitators have not done well. In Georgia, they haven't. And in Arizona, where I come from, Arizona is a very red state. We have more than 300,000, you know, more Republicans registered than Democrats. But we have a Democrat in the governor's office, two Democratic senators, Democrat secretary of state and Democrat attorney general, all the elected statewide offices. Because we've had people try to imitate the president and haven't done well. I do think that we're going to see a migration. And I've written about this away from the president and his policies. And one, the president has been able to basically control any primary Republican primary across the country that's waning. And if a president leaves office or is in the last two years of his term, if his policies are really popular, that still lends him power that he wouldn't otherwise have as a lame duck. But the president's policies have not done well. In particular, tariff policies, protectionist policies have led to high inflation, and then also couple that with a war that's been not popular at all. And so, yeah, I think you're seeing a migration now that, you know, filing deadlines have passed, most primaries have passed, and we're into the general midterm, general. And then beyond the midterms, you'll really see that happening.

[Adam Harris]

I should ask, do you still identify as a Republican.

[Jeff Flake]

I do. I do. I'm still registered Republican. And I'm hoping that the party returns to its previous kind of tenets of limited government, economic freedom, individual responsibility, strong American leadership abroad. And I do think that we're going to see a return to that. And I think you saw in the Senate, for example, the other day a vote on Russian sanctions that is a bit of a proxy vote, support for Ukraine, but also support for American leadership and support for NATO and support for kind of the old bicameral consensus on foreign policy. So I think you see in elected officials a desire to go back to that, but it's been very difficult when the president has had such a hold on the party base.

[Adam Harris]

What does it mean to continue identifying with the party if it's moved beyond the recognition of what it's been in the past, which is sort of to say, are you hanging on to a party that isn't your party anymore?

[Jeff Flake]

That would be easy to say right now. But like I say, parties sometimes return as well. You see, parties flirt with populism and then return. We're in unfamiliar territory right now, and I think we're going to be migrating back to more familiar ground. And I do think that that's where the country really is. I think we're a center right country. But the problem right now is, you know, you only have a subset of a subset of a subset that votes in Republican primaries. You have a similar issue on the Democratic side, not as pronounced perhaps, but that just puts all the political incentives to, you know, drive to the extremes. But I don't think that's where the country is. That's why one thing that really excites me about people like John Ossoff is I think that they can move the Democratic Party more to its, more to the center, and that would force Republicans to then contest that ground as well. As long as we have Democrats, you know, all the energy on the, on the far progressive side, it allows Republicans to be extreme as well and still be seen as less extreme, I guess.

[Adam Harris]

Well, actually, I wanted to stick with that for a second because you've said there's this sort of like massive lane in the middle that most people identify as politically in the middle. But Democratic voters in recent primaries have shown that that's not exactly where they are either. Right. There's been this feeling that things are broken in part because. Because of some of the middle ground solutions. Right. They're part of what has led us to this moment where you see candidates like Abdel El Sayed in Michigan winning the Democratic primary. So I guess what does success from the left wing of the Democratic Party tell us about what Americans actually might want right now?

[Jeff Flake]

Yeah, well, I think it just proves a point I made before that. When you're looking at primaries, although there was increased turnout certainly in Michigan, it's still a subset of a subset that are determining who the nominee is. And I do think the Democrats in Michigan would have been far better off by going a different direction. I think they would have had that general election easily. Now it'll be more difficult, certainly. But I do think, yeah, the same problem is on both sides. And I think without a polarizing figure like Donald Trump, who is certainly controls primaries on the right and causes Democrats to act in ways that they wouldn't otherwise. I see people like Gavin Newsom, you know, using foul and crude language just because the president does and he wants to match it. And you see that phenomenon all over and it's not not been good for politics. I hope we can move away from it, but that's going to require leadership. That's why I, you know, in particular I appreciate Jon Ossoff who's more serious candidate and doesn't doesn't kind of follow that.

[Adam Harris]

After the break, Ambassador Flake on how to bring decorum and decency back to American politics.

[Chronic Migraine Patient]

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[Chronic Migraine Patient]

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[Jeff Flake]

Almost.

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[Adam Harris]

Thinking about that speech from 2017 and where we've come since then. Right. It's been a decade, roughly a decade. All three branches of government right now have really abysmal approval ratings. People's trust in institutions is flagging. And you've said that. Right. The spell will eventually break. Right. Once there's no longer a Trump, we can return to ourselves once more. It seems that you're still of that belief that the fever is going to break. And what do you see that gives you that hope that the fever is going to break?

[Jeff Flake]

Well, it's been one heck of a fever. It's been a long time in coming. Well, let me just say I was back in Washington for Lindsey Graham's funeral last week. And I came away from that believing that, like I've said, that this fever will break. One I saw Democrats and Republicans. Lindsey was interesting figure, but if nothing else, he certainly had friends on the Democratic side. I was with him on a lot of those issues on immigration reform in particular and a lot of foreign policy issues. And you saw people from all political stripes come out and celebrate a man's life that way. That made me feel good. At the same time, you had Senators Cornyn and Tillis standing up, albeit they're not staying in Washington after January. But hey, it's still something to actually stand up to the president and see the Senate acting more like the Senate again. And I see John Thew keeping some of his members at bay who want to make institutional changes like getting rid of the filibuster, which would fundamentally change the Senate into a more partisan body than it already is. But I came away from this week even more firmly believing that, you know, this fever will break. When you look around the country as well, I still think you see that phenomenon that the president's imitators don't do as well as he does. So I'm hopeful that fever will break.

[Adam Harris]

But you've written right, that we've seen folks in the past, lawmakers, the country generally come together after death or after a tragedy, two of which you experienced at the congressional baseball practice, as well as standing with Representative Giffords at the State of the Union. But that quickly fades away and people sort of divide again. Do you think that even if we do sort of heal that there will be that division again?

[Jeff Flake]

Yeah. Well, I think you've had a lot of people elected, particularly in the last several cycles, who haven't really been in Washington when there's been so called regular order or what we're used to. So it's going to be difficult. You'll always have those voices and we have a media environment that's not going back to the way it was before where there are just a few trusted sources of information. It's more distributed that way. So it's more difficult to go back to the way it was. But that's why it's going to require real leadership. And leadership is important. We see that, seen that because the man in the White House now, he's certainly been effective in where he's wanted to go and getting people on his side more out of fear of losing primaries. But by the same token, you're going to have leaders that actually inspire people, you know, better angels of our nature. And that's what I'm hoping to see in this next presidential election is people on both the Republican and the Democratic side who will, you know, appeal to people's, you know, better angels. And if they do, I think we can get to a better place. It's going to be more difficult moving ahead, like I said, just because of the media environment, but it's not impossible.

[Adam Harris]

Well, Ambassador, we'll have to leave it there. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining me today.

[Jeff Flake]

Thanks for having me on.

[Adam Harris]

That's all for today's show. This episode of Radio Atlantic was produced by Mike Pisoli. It was edited by Hadley Robinson. It was engineered by Miguel Carrascal and has original music by Rob Smirciak. Claudina Baid is the executive producer of Atlantic Audio and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor. If you like what you saw here, new episodes of Radio Atlantic drop every Monday and Thursday. You can subscribe on the Atlantic's YouTube page on Apple or Spotify or wherever it is you get your podcasts. And if you want to support this work and the work of my colleagues, you can subscribe to the [e-mail] listener until next time, I'm Adam Harris.

[Natalie Brennan and Julie Beck]

Logging off, rebuilding our attention spans, Trading in smartphones for dumb phones. Why are people trying to get off their screens and what are they really after? I'm Natalie Brennan, a producer at the Atlantic, and I'm Julie Beck, a staff writer at the Atlantic. This season, we're exploring the often fraught, always changing relationship people have with technology and examining the ways our dev races affect our connection with one another. New episodes of how to Touch Grass come out every Monday. Subscribe wherever you get your podcast.