Radio Atlantic – "Saudi Arabia Gets the Last Laugh"

Podcast: Radio Atlantic
Date: October 9, 2025
Host: Hanna Rosin
Guests: Vivian Salama (Atlantic staff writer), Helen Lewis (Atlantic staff writer), voice clips from comedians and media

Main Theme / Episode Overview

This episode explores the controversial Riyadh Comedy Festival in Saudi Arabia, featuring major Western comedians performing in a notoriously restrictive state. The conversation dives into the paradoxes of Saudi social change, questions around art, free expression, and "soft power," and the complicity debate about engaging with authoritarian regimes for profit. The episode blends on-the-ground reportage with analysis from Atlantic staff, examining how Saudi Arabia seeks global influence and image-laundering through culture—and asking who really gets the last laugh.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Comedy Festival’s Irony and Controversy

• The Setup: The festival’s existence is likened to the punchline of a dark joke, given Saudi Arabia’s record of jailing comedians, repressing free speech, and its links to major human rights violations.
  • Hanna Rosin sets the tone:
    “A bunch of comedians walk into a festival hosted by a country that has arrested and jailed some of its own comedians...” [00:39]
• Comedian Reactions: Clips highlight skepticism and dark humor—Marc Maron jokes about festival promotion:
  “‘How do you even promote that? You know, like from the folks that brought you 9/11—two weeks of laughter in the desert. Don’t miss it.’” [01:38]
• Boycotts and Big Names: Some, like Shane Gillis and Atsuko Okatsuka, decline on ethical grounds (“…the contract stated that performers could not make fun of Saudi Arabia and its leadership, the Saudi royal family, and basically anything regarding religion” [03:37]), while others (Dave Chappelle, Louis CK, Aziz Ansari, etc.) take large payments.
• Mixed Feelings: Louis CK admits internal conflict:

  “I have mixed feelings about it, too. I struggled about going once they started hearing what everyone was saying.” [03:33]

• Public Apologies: Jessica Kirson apologizes to queer fans for participating; Aziz Ansari defends going as an “overall good thing” for social change. [04:05]

Saudi Arabia’s Vision: Beyond Brutality to “Vibrant Society”

• Modernization Goals (Vision 2030): Interview with Vivian Salama unpacks the larger plan:

  “Vision 2030 is their economic diversification plan... One of the big parts of this framework was that they were going to diversify their economic, social, and cultural life... They cannot rely exclusively on the fact that they are the world's largest exporter of oil as the sole basis for generating economic revenue. They needed to diversify.” [07:00]

• Aspirations for Global Rebranding: Saudi Arabia seeks “to bring eyes and people’s attention to Saudi Arabia for things other than negative headlines or just the Hajj” [08:57], modeling itself after glamorous neighbors like Dubai.
• Western Eyes and Investment: Hosting global entertainment is a strategic move to shed the “9/11 and human rights” image.
  • “They want us to be talking about Saudi Arabia: did you see that festival in Saudi Arabia?” [09:22]
• Reforms Under MBS: Tangible social changes—women driving, relaxed dress codes, and “vivid, visible” diversions from the past—are acknowledged, but deeper freedoms remain tightly controlled.
  • “When I last visited Saudi... I couldn’t actually believe how much it had changed… I walked around in jeans and a T-shirt.” [11:41]

The Contradictions of “Openness” and Red Lines

• Bounded Liberalization: Openness is “broad”—but with clear red lines. Criticizing the government, monarchy, or religion remains verboten.
  • “Comedians are known for making fun of everything. So how did they think through that?... The fact that we are here talking about it is what they are trying to accomplish.” [08:37–08:57]
  • Vivian Salama: “... Gulf governments... don’t take criticism very well. They're not a free speech society by any stretch.” [13:19]
• Superficial vs. Substantial Change: Some openness for expats and elite Saudis, but not freedom for political or social dissent, especially for ordinary citizens.
  • “...this whole festival should make us reappraise why we take the political thoughts of comedians so seriously and whether or not they've really earned that right to be taken seriously.” – Helen Lewis [24:30]

Inside the Festival: What Was Permitted, and What Wasn't

• First-Hand Reporting (Helen Lewis):
  • Sets the scene:
    “So we went to see the co-headliners of the comedy festival... they had a Saudi comedian as a support act. And he said, ‘I just want everyone to give a big round of applause for Mohammed bin Salman.’ And I was just like, no, no...” [16:18]
  • Contractual limits: Explicit ban on jokes about royalty, government, and Islam (as revealed by Atsuko Okatsuka’s leaked contract). [17:08]
  • Boundary-Pushing Content:
    “...the material was pretty blue. This is probably the first time that anyone has joked about dildos on stage in Saudi Arabia.” [17:29]
  • Memorable moment: Jimmy Carr makes a risky political joke referencing Yemen’s suffering due to Saudi military action:
    • “He did a political joke... there was a beat, and then he said: Yemen.” [19:03]
  • Adaptation by Headliners:
    • Louis CK played it safe: “He basically did... his current tour show. So he did a whole bit... about jury duty. Well, no one in Saudi Arabia does jury duty.” [19:42]
    • Pushing limits with religion:
      “He did do a bit about his own religion. He said, ‘am I okay to mock my religion?’... Technically violating the spirit of the contract. Except... the spirit... really was don't mock Islam.” [19:43]

Complicity, Moral Relativism, and Public Debate

• Defenses and Critiques:
  • Some comedians invoke cultural exchange and historic parallels (“I grew up in a de facto theocracy... Ireland is now a much more liberal society... If this has a chance to do that, I want to be part of it.” – Andrew Maxwell, recounted by Helen Lewis [21:03]).
  • Others rely on fatalism (Tim Dillon: “they’re paying me enough to silence the screams. I don’t care”) or moral equivalence (“America’s done some bad shit, too. Who are we to preach?”) [23:30]
  • Underlying Paradox: Liberalization is permitted “up to the exact point that [MBS] allows, but no more, and you must never question how much or how little he has liberalized... The government has adopted this policy that they've said that her [Loujane El Hathloul’s] position was essentially the correct one, but she did it wrong because she spoke out against... the Saudi state.” [21:03–23:30]
  • Helen Lewis challenges the moral seriousness accorded comedians versus businesses:
    “Why are we holding Bill Burr to a higher moral standard than Chili’s or Dunkin Donuts?” [26:02]

Reflections on the State of Comedy and Its Place in Politics

• Cancel Culture and New Comedy Currents:
  • The guest list featured several comedians pushed by backlash or “cancel culture” into new venues.
    “You look down that list and it's Dave Chappelle... Louis CK, got Me Too’d... A sense that in the last couple of years in American comedy that lots of people got pushed out of the mainstream and they rebuilt a whole new... anti-woke comedy.” [26:16]
• Big Question: Why do we take comedians’ views on politics and morality so seriously at all?
  • “...I want to go back to why we've ceded this much moral authority to this class of people... their job is... to get the right reaction from an audience. And that's not the same thing as telling the truth.” [24:30]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “How do you even promote that? …from the folks that brought you 9/11—two weeks of laughter in the desert. Don’t miss it.” – Marc Maron, referenced by Hanna Rosin [01:38]
• “I think everything that's being said about it, about that's a worthy discussion. When are you appeasing? When are you engaging? And I have mixed feelings about it, too.” – Louis CK [03:33]
• “You could really kind of envision the skyline of Dubai... Saudi Arabia has a lot more money and kind of looked on all these years very jealously...” – Vivian Salama [05:46]
• “So the paradox of Mohammed bin Salman's rule of Saudi Arabia is that you can liberalize up to the exact point that he allows, but no more, and you must never question how much or how little he has liberalized.” – Helen Lewis [21:03]
• “Why are we holding Bill Burr to a higher moral standard than Chili’s or Dunkin Donuts?” – Helen Lewis [26:02]
• “I thought it would be funny.” – Helen Lewis, on why she traveled to the festival [26:12]

Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:39-04:43: Opening setup, comedians' reactions, and Human Rights Watch protest.
• 05:46–09:22: Saudi Arabia’s broader ambition and Vision 2030 explained.
• 09:22–11:41: The Trump-MBS era and societal reforms summary.
• 13:19–14:40: Constraints on openness and Gulf attitudes toward free speech.
• 16:18–21:03: Helen Lewis’s first-hand account of the festival—audience, content, and boundaries.
• 21:03–24:30: Comedian defenses, political context, Helen’s analysis of moral relativism and “soft power.”
• 24:30–26:16: Reflection on why comedians wield so much “public intellectual” status and criticism of these expectations.
• 26:16–27:36: Discussion of cancel culture and the anti-woke comedian migration.
• Final: Concluding thoughts and episode wrap-up.

Conclusion

The episode offers a nuanced, sometimes biting look at Saudi Arabia’s modernization campaign via Western cultural imports—asking whether comedy can be a vector for social change, or whether it ends up as state-approved spectacle. The careful lines drawn around speech and criticism reveal the limits of “openness” under authoritarian rule, sparking debates about complicity, moral frameworks, and why audiences treat comedians as ethical or political authorities. Ultimately, the episode suggests that while Saudi Arabia may succeed in image-laundering via “soft power,” the price and impact—both for its citizens and its Western partners—remain deeply contested.