Hanna Rosen (4:25)

So what were some of the big scenes that stuck with you? Because I feel like anyone listening is gonna have an odd disjointed view. Like they're literally not gonna understand what is happening. Like, is she just walking from place to place during this movie?

Sophie Gilbert (4:39)

Yeah, it's about as boring as that sounds, actually. I mean, I wrote my notes. I mean, she begins at Mar A Lago boarding a plane. She goes to New York. She gets fitted for her inauguration clothes. You can see Brett Ratner is the director and we can get into him for a moment later, but you can see him desperate for action and for drama because there's a scene where a costume assistant has to try and cut her blouse with scissors. And their hand is sort of trembling with fear. From there. She goes to Washington. She goes to Jimmy Carter's funeral. She goes to St. Patrick's Cathedral and talks a little bit about losing her mother. She goes back to Washington, back to Mar A Lago, does the inauguration, she goes to three balls. That's it. That's really all there is.

Hanna Rosen (5:24)

Having not read her biography, I have to say I did learn some things. I'm not sure I learned directly some things in the way that you would if somebody sat down and interviewed someone. But I did learn, you know, she was alone so much of the time, at least things that made me think, like, why is there no one else in this picture? I learned about her fashion sense. Like, she's essentially wearing menswear a lot of the time, and black and white. I found that to be very interesting. Like, her interest is not fashion per se, at least in this administration. It's tailoring, which is different.

Sophie Gilbert (5:58)

Yeah, there's an interesting backstory to the. So Kate Bennett wrote a book called Free Melania, and she wrote. She wrote up her theory, which is that whenever Melania Trump is annoyed at Donald, she dresses in menswear because he prefers this very feminine aesthetic of dresses and, you know, pink and women being extra feminine. So Kate Bennett WR about how in 2018, the year that the Stormy Daniels scandal came out, Melania wore a lot of tailoring. There were a lot of suits, a lot of pinstripe that year. So I found that interesting in the context of this movie where she is, again, wearing quite formal, quite tailored, masculine clothing. But, no, I think the things that were fascinating about this movie, maybe fascinating is the wrong word. Mildly interesting. You give her that, how much she exists in this bubble, and it seems to be a real bubble that I would say is probably one that many famous and ultra rich and ultra privileged people live in where there's no friction. You know, she walks smoothly through these liminal spaces. You know, she's at the airport boarding the plane, and she's in a hallway. She's in a freight elevator with, you know, Secret Service. She gets in a car, there's no traffic because, you know, they've cleared the roads, and she goes to St. Patrick's Cathedral. They've cleared all the people out so that she can go in privately. It's this very smooth, curated, manufactured reality, I think, where nothing annoys her, nothing really gets in her way. She's just sort of moving from place to place without. There are no friends. She has sort of supplicants. She has, you know, her trusted wardrobe designers and the people designing the themes for the balls, the events planners. And everyone is very deferential to her. And it doesn't seem that sincere a relationship. Maybe it is when the cameras are off, but you don't even see her have a conversation with her son, like, you see Baron, but he doesn't speak in the movie. They don't have any interaction. She has a few scenes with Donald, and that was interesting to me is how Melania seems to be the only person in the world that Donald can stab and sharing the limelight with. Like, we know that he is very much an enjoyer of attention, and yet when Melania is the focus, it doesn't seem to bother him. He seems proud. He seems sort of genuinely enthralled by her in a way that I was not quite expecting.

Hanna Rosen (8:10)

That's so interesting, because what struck me was a little bit the opposite of that, which is the nature of their conversations, the tone they use to talk to each other. That's what's really stuck in my brain. The first time we actually hear Trump's voice is when he. He calls her on the phone. Hi, Mr. President.

Sophie Gilbert (8:29)

Congratulations. Did you watch it? Yes. She is in New York and he's in Washington. The votes have just been ratified, and he is officially, you know, President Elect. She's like, oh, please stop talking.

Hanna Rosen (8:43)

She's like, she hasn't even seen it.

Sophie Gilbert (8:44)

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Hanna Rosen (8:47)

And he starts talking to her, literally, exactly like he talks to us, the American people. He's like, it's the best thing that's ever happened. It's the biggest victory ever.

Sophie Gilbert (8:56)

Yeah.

Hanna Rosen (8:56)

Yes, exactly.

Sophie Gilbert (8:58)

They've never seen before.

Hanna Rosen (8:59)

Never seen. But he's talking to his wife.

Sophie Gilbert (9:01)

I know. There's also the scene where they're dancing at the inaugural, this very staged moment where she is supposed to, I think, perform adoration, and she can't do it. She seems like she can't wait for him to stop touching her. She's leaning away from him as far back as she can. The body language, I think, speaks possibly more in that scene than Melania does.

Hanna Rosen (9:23)

You had the absolutely most brilliant insight about her inauguration dress, which was a white dress with black ribbons, we'll say ribbons. I mean, it's an incredibly constructed dress. They do talk about it a lot. You know how it has no seams showing?

Sophie Gilbert (9:42)

You can't see the seams. It's just like, Melania, I'm gonna make.

Hanna Rosen (9:45)

You repeat your line because it was so good.

Sophie Gilbert (9:47)

Well, it was all I could think of when I saw it. Now she has this white dress with these stark black lines across it. And looking at it now from the context of 2026, it just looks like the redacted Epstein files.

Hanna Rosen (9:58)

Like, I think anybody seeing this film will never see anything but that again, it's exactly what it looks like, redaction ink. It's amazing.

Sophie Gilbert (10:08)

I mean, her style again, like her colors are black and white. I think that that by itself is interesting when we're thinking about first ladies and how pastel they often are and how, you know, Michelle Obama always famously had to wear a lot of sort of J. Crew tea dresses and things like that. Melania, she's black and white. She's not worried about trying to perform a version of herself that she doesn't feel connected to.

Hanna Rosen (10:27)

Another great moment, and this one you can help me read. Actually, this was my favorite moment in the movie when I felt like there was a peak of Melania. She felt sort of grounded to me, is when she, towards the end, you know, they've done the dance, they've gone through the inauguration party, and she looks straight at the camera and she says, here we go again. How did you read that?

Sophie Gilbert (10:50)

I read it as, you know, made for the trailer, which is exactly where it ended up.

Hanna Rosen (10:56)

Here we go again.

Sophie Gilbert (10:58)

It's really funny because there's a moment at the beginning of the movie too, where she says, everyone wants to know. So here it is. Family, business, philanthropy, and becoming first lady of the United States again. And the again is so like classic 80s sitcom, you know, like record scratch, freeze frame. Here's how I ended up here. And. But all the things that she's promising do not come through at all in the movie. There's no sense of family, there's no sense of philanthropy. There's very little about business. You do see her becoming first lady of the United States a little bit. It's sort of funny. It's like there are these moments almost where you see what it could have been if it were a real documentary and not this sort of brochure like version of Melania.

Hanna Rosen (11:39)

After the break. How Melania Trump's film fits into Donald Trump's America. So the movie premiered at the Kennedy Center. There was no mainstream press there, just administration officials and tech people. And then shortly after that, Trump announced he was closing the Kennedy center for this two year renovation to build what he called a new and spectacular entertainment complex. In your head, are these two events connected?

Sophie Gilbert (12:13)

God, I mean, it's sort of. It's more representative to me. I think of so much that Trump touches seems to die. I'm thinking about his career in running casinos in New Jersey and all his multiple bankruptcies. I mean, he famously took over the Kennedy center, which was renovated, by the way, in 2019. It's not that desperately in need of a makeover, he put his name on the Kennedy center, and immediately artists have refused to perform there. They've dropped out. The Washington National Opera has removed itself from the Kennedy Center. There's this real sort of rush to flee. And as a result, I think it's probably hemorrhaging money and Trump is now closing it for two years. But I think what was interesting about the premiere was who wasn't there? And really, when you think about who attended, there weren't any mainstream celebrities other than Nicki Minaj. Nicki Minaj, who recently, I think, has been tweeting during the Grammys about the musicians who were involved in satanic cults. So, yeah, so that was their big mainstream cultural figure who they could get to come along. And I'm not sure that it demonstrates the sort of clout in culture's world, at least that they were hoping to show.

Hanna Rosen (13:25)

It is like the Trump administration's open wish to control the culture. And then there's the sort of two possibilities of it. Like I was thinking, on the one hand, you know, I have read about days when there were state run television, you know, where you'd have, like, ballets and operas about great administration triumphs and there would be Melania films every day and we could all go see them. You know, like, that is a world we've read about history. And it did feel to me like that, like some weird, authoritarian future of culture. On the other hand, like you said, it felt kind of sad, like there is no state run television in a world of infinite sources of entertainment. That's impossible. And so it just feels a little like failure and a way for rich donors to curry favor. Like, it's hard to see how it's gonna take off. You know, it's like both scary, but also seems maybe not possible.

Sophie Gilbert (14:17)

Yeah. Our colleague Spencer Kornhaber wrote a really good piece about this recently and about how Trump is desperate to control culture, to put his stamp on it, to have his, you know, his word be law, and to be in charge of what happens. And he famously loves music and DJs at Mar A Lago from his iPad. But what he can't control, Spencer argued, was what people actually want. Like, he can't manage to be the person who controls public taste. And I think that's the thing that Melania is butting up against. And from what I can, the, you know, the audience is going to see it. They have been very divided along party lines. Like the idea that this would be a film with mainstream appeal. I think is just not. It's not happening.

Hanna Rosen (14:58)

I guess the mid possibility is that it's propaganda that works some of the time. Like, okay, we can discuss this around the Melania film and immigration. Like, the film was coming out around the time of the Minneapolis shootings and the sort of mayhem in Minneapolis and the tragedy there was. Melania is maybe the most famous immigrant in the US Right now. And would you agree that immigration came up a lot like the theme of immigration was there?

Sophie Gilbert (15:25)

It came up in the movie, but not in a meaningful way. I mean, it was fascinating because there were all these moments in the film where Melania would say things that sounded nice but were completely at odds with things that her husband is doing and really sort of crumble under any gentle prodding or like even. Not even interrogation. But there's sort of no deeper analysis of that in the movie. So she does have this scene with the White House interior designer who's an immigrant from Laos, who says, you know, you and I, we're the American dream or something like that. And there's no. Like, the moment doesn't even really land because you're not allowed to consider what it means that these people are decorating the White House that Trump will live in while he is also, you know, staging mass deportations of immigrants. Like, there's none of that tension. And so all these moments sort of, they felt very strange to me because none of it makes sense. Like, it's all in conflict with what we know, if we're following politics in this moment. But the director of the movie does absolutely nothing to sort of dig at that tension in an interesting way.

Hanna Rosen (16:28)

The director, Brett Ratner, Tell us about that.

Sophie Gilbert (16:32)

Brett Ratner is a Hollywood film director. He is best known for the Rush Hour franchise. He makes action movies, these sort of big blockbusters, Tentpole Films. In 2017, during the outpouring of sort of allegations and accusations that came out during what we now call the MeToo movement, Brett Ratner was alleged to have harassed and sexually assaulted half a dozen women, some of them very famous women. The actresses Olivia Munn and Natasha Henstridge were among the women who came out with accusations against Brett Ratner. And he denied them all, but has not made a film since. And so Melania is his return to filmmaking. It's definitely not the kind of product that I think he would be making if he had his druthers, but the Trumps seem to have seen no problem with giving him this assignment. Trump is supposedly a very big fan of the Rush Hour franchise and is hoping For a new installment.

Hanna Rosen (17:25)

Is that a. Like, is there something explicit, you know, like Melania's jacket? What did her jacket say? I don't care.

Sophie Gilbert (17:32)

I don't care.

Hanna Rosen (17:33)

I really don't care. Do you. Is that explicit or is it just, you know, Donald Trump likes the Rush Hour franchise and they're not really thinking about it.

Sophie Gilbert (17:42)

Stephanie Winston Woolcroft, who worked with Melania, has also written a book about her called Melania and Me. And she wrote in that book that Melania doesn't do shame. She's not sentimental, and she won't be forced to feel something that she doesn't feel. And so I really do think when it comes to moral quandaries like this, she won't perform something that she doesn't feel, if that makes sense. And so in terms of Brett Ratner being a friend of the family, I mean, he's moved in the same circles as Trump for a long time. I think he has a place in Florida. I can understand why he took this job. I'm sure I would be desperate to work again, too. But it's a strange project for him to take. And I think, as we see in the movie, it's definitely not his natural talent.

Hanna Rosen (18:29)

Yeah, I did wonder if there could have been a version of this movie that had more robust alternate storytelling. Like there is a airbrushed version of Melania's life story that is rich and interesting. I have no idea if it's true, but it was interesting to me that they chose no backstory. Like, there was no pictures of her in Slovenia, no pictures of her as a young child as a model. The American, you know, the immigrant makes good storyline was not present at all. And I thought would be kind of interesting, even if not fact checkable.

Sophie Gilbert (19:09)

Yeah, no, I do think her story is a fascinating one, but again, it's hard to tell how much of what she says is actually reflective of what actually happened. I mean, I think during Melania, she talks about her mother as a fashion designer, which is slightly, I think, overplaying her mother's actual job. She was a pattern maker in a children's clothes factory, like a state owned children's clothing factory in Slovenia. So there's sort of the story that she tells, which is Trump often describes her as a supermodel. There's this idea that she had this, you know, flourishing modeling career, but in reality, I think she had this very 80s aesthetic during the 90s as a model, and she didn't quite fit during the fashion moment. So a lot of the ads that she got were commercials, and she did an ad for Camel. And so she definitely worked as a model, but it wasn't. The idea that she was up there, you know, with the Kate Mosses and the Naomi Campbells at the time, is definitely not true. But even in a deep dive analysis of the superficial aspects that she presents, like, that's why I find the fashion thing so fascinating. The idea that she wears men's tailoring when she's angry at her husband, like, she gives us so little. But there is definitely fodder to dig into in a more thorough and curious way. But I think that's not what Melania the film is about.

Hanna Rosen (20:21)

So the movie ends. Do you remember how it ends? By emphasizing her remaking the role of first lady.

Sophie Gilbert (20:26)

Yes. Her peace letter to Putin.

Hanna Rosen (20:29)

Yes. This part is interesting because it's entirely in text. You know, there's nothing to look at. It's just text on the screen, and it's a lot of text. You know, it's like reading a sort of AI summary of my accomplishments. But the accomplishments are very much in line with past first ladies.

Sophie Gilbert (20:47)

Yeah. But it's funny, too, because I think they realize by the end of the movie that they really have given us nothing. So there's this rush to kind of unfurl actual accomplishments. But it's funny, too, because there's a scene in the film where she talks about her accomplishments as pursed lady. She's like, oh, I renovated the rose garden, which her husband turned into a patio. She talks about working in the east wing, which her husband turned into a pile of rubble. There's all these moments where she sort of very happily talks about things that she's done, but there's no acknowledgment of where they stand now. And so you do have this sort of wall of text at the end saying that she's worked for children in the foster care community, and she's rallied on behalf of the Take It down act, which is involving pictures online and this peace letter to Putin, which I did not know about, and obviously, I don't think it really has worked. And if the goal was managing peace between Russia and Ukraine, but sort of questionable accomplishments, but it does seem to reflect a small amount of panic from the filmmaker regarding what he's actually been able to tell us.

Hanna Rosen (21:47)

So often when we talk about first ladies, they are a marker for gender and feminism in the US at that moment. Like, what we take away from it. Thinking in those terms, since you're somebody who does think in those terms, what do you take away from this movie? Is it the act of ultimate control by a first lady over her own image? Is it retrograde? How do you read?

Sophie Gilbert (22:14)

Feels to me like an extension of what so many people do on Instagram now, which is curate their own reality and curate their own sense of self in a way that is very controlled and very intentional, but also very flat and often not that fun to engage with. But in terms of femininity at the moment, I do find that fascinating because I would say so much of femininity in this moment, and especially in conservative circles, is about this kind of weaponized performance of not just femininity but also wealth. Like this very obvious work that people are willing to put in to look the right way, to sort of perform in a way that Trump might find pleasing. That is very obvious moment and certainly like the unabashed performance of wealth, I think is something that we have become very used to online and are maybe getting sick of right now. I personally feel sick of it, but maybe I'm the only one.

Hanna Rosen (23:09)

Well, Sophie, thank you so much for talking through this movie, both as an actual movie and as an object in the culture and what it might mean. I appreciate it.

Sophie Gilbert (23:18)

Oh, it was my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Hanna Rosen (23:22)

This episode of Radio Atlantic was produced by Rosie Hughes. It was edited by Kevin Townsend and fact checked by Sam Fentress. Rob Smersiak engineered and composed original music. Claudina Baid is the executive producer of audio at the Atlantic, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor. Listeners, if you enjoy the show, you can support our work and the work of all Atlantic journalists when you subscribe to The Atlantic. At theatlantic.com listener, I'm Hanna Rosen. Thank you for listening.