The Patriotic Punk

Summary

Podcast Summary: Radio Atlantic – "The Patriotic Punk"

Episode Details:

• Title: The Patriotic Punk
• Host: Jeffrey Goldberg (Editor in Chief, The Atlantic)
• Guest: Ken Casey (Frontman, Dropkick Murphys)
• Release Date: July 3, 2025

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1. Introduction to Dropkick Murphys and Jeffrey Goldberg’s Interest

The episode begins with Hanna Rosen introducing Jeffrey Goldberg, who expresses his unexpected passion for Celtic punk music, specifically highlighting his admiration for Dropkick Murphys led by Ken Casey.

Jeffrey Goldberg [01:16]: “I listen to them in the morning when I'm trying to wake up... they're good songs to listen to in the morning when you're trying to get motivated.”

2. The Intersection of Music and Politics

Goldberg delves into his fascination with how Dropkick Murphys integrate explicit political messages into their music, distinguishing them from other bands that might use politics merely as a backdrop.

Jeffrey Goldberg [02:07]: “I admire people who try to say something explicit with their music... not very interesting lyrically.”

Ken Casey elaborates on the band's commitment to political expression, noting the balance between maintaining musical integrity and conveying their beliefs.

3. Origins of "Shipping up to Boston" and Woody Guthrie’s Influence

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on the creation of "Shipping up to Boston," a pivotal song for the band. Casey recounts how Woody Guthrie’s unpublished lyrics influenced the track, emphasizing the unique blend of brevity and depth in its composition.

Ken Casey [04:38]: “... we had written the music to 'Shipping up to Boston' and were just waiting to put the words in. When we chose Woody's lyrics, there were no other lyrics to add.”

4. The Challenges of Creating Political Art

Goldberg and Casey discuss the inherent difficulties in making political music, particularly the risk of alienating portions of the audience. Casey reflects on the commercial pressures versus the desire to remain authentic in their messaging.

Ken Casey [07:58]: “I say, listen, you don't like our opinion, you don't like what we have to say... These core beliefs drive our music.”

5. Engaging with Politically Divergent Fans

The dialogue shifts to interactions with fans holding opposing political views. Casey shares personal anecdotes about confronting or choosing to ignore fans wearing MAGA shirts, highlighting the complexities of maintaining respect amid political tensions.

Ken Casey [11:25]: “I still think that if you're willing to sport a shirt, that for a guy who is doing what he's doing now, you certainly don't have my love and devotion...”

6. A Wager That Bridges Political Divides

A pivotal moment in the episode is the recounting of a wager between Casey and a fan wearing a MAGA shirt. This interaction underscores the potential for respectful dialogue even amidst deep-seated political differences.

Ken Casey [22:34]: “And I kept it respectful. When he lost the bet because the shirt was made in Nicaragua... he said, 'I've been coming to see you guys for 20 years. I consider you family.'”

Ken Casey [22:52]: “I have a few friends like that... ready to have some civil discussion and laugh about it a little bit.”

7. The Impact of Political Divisions on Personal Relationships

Casey reflects on how political shifts, especially the rise of Trumpism, have strained personal relationships and altered the landscape of his fan base. He acknowledges the loss of friendships yet emphasizes the importance of staying true to his values.

Ken Casey [24:16]: “I've definitely lost peripheral friends and my closer friends that have gone MAGA... But we can stay cordial.”

8. The New Album: Goals and Political Messaging

The conversation turns to Dropkick Murphys' latest album, emphasizing its unabashed political stance. Casey explains that the album's authenticity stems from addressing real-time issues rather than avoiding them, ensuring that their music remains a true reflection of their experiences and beliefs.

Ken Casey [25:32]: “If we wrote 13 songs about the situation... but that felt authentic for us because we do live our lives right.”

9. Concluding Thoughts: Hope and Unity Amidst Division

In wrapping up, Casey shares a cautious optimism about overcoming political divides, advocating for unity based on shared values of freedom, kindness, and dignity. He expresses a desire for policies that unite rather than fragment society.

Ken Casey [26:56]: “I think that's what it might take... the policies of the Trump administration... should unite anybody that's center left and far progressive.”

Jeffrey Goldberg commends Casey for his unwavering commitment to his principles, highlighting the importance of artists using their platforms responsibly amidst societal chaos.

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Key Takeaways:

• Authentic Political Expression: Dropkick Murphys prioritize genuine political messaging in their music, even at the risk of alienating some fans.
• Balancing Art and Commerce: Casey emphasizes the tension between maintaining commercial success and staying true to political convictions.
• Respectful Engagement: The wager story illustrates that respectful interactions can bridge even the most polarized political divides.
• Impact on Personal Relationships: Political shifts have personal ramifications, affecting friendships and fan dynamics.
• Hope for Unity: Despite deep divisions, there is a call for unity based on shared human values rather than partisan lines.

Notable Quotes:

• Jeffrey Goldberg [07:05]: “Writing political music is a hard slog through Muddy Waters.”
• Ken Casey [22:34]: “I have a few friends like that... ready to have some civil discussion and laugh about it a little bit.”

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Conclusion: In "The Patriotic Punk," Jeffrey Goldberg engages in a profound conversation with Ken Casey, exploring the intricate dance between music and politics. The episode sheds light on the challenges and triumphs of using art as a vehicle for political expression, the personal costs of such choices, and the enduring hope for dialogue and understanding in a divided landscape.

Transcript

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[Ken Casey]

Hey.

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[Hanna Rosen]

Of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of network's busy taxes and fees extra see mintmobile.com I'm Hanna Rosen, this is Radio Atlantic and the Atlantic's Editor in Chief, Jeffrey Goldberg is really into Celtic punk music. Who knew he listens to one band in particular when he's getting ready for work.

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

I listen to them in the morning when I'm trying to wake up, the boys are back and you know, smash Shit up or whatever are good songs to listen to in the morning when you're trying to like, get motivated.

[Hanna Rosen]

Those songs are by Dropkick Murphy's, who, by the way, have an album out this week. Their front man is Ken Casey. And Jeff saw a clip one day of Casey doing something interesting at one of his shows. Something Jeff thought was unusual, risky, maybe even brave. Wait, you just called up Ken Casey one day. Why were you interested in him?

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

If you actually want to know the real reason why do you want to know the real reason why I do?

[Hanna Rosen]

Because I don't pin you as a hardcore fan.

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

You know, there is no bigger fan of Celtic punk music in this podcast studio than this guy. But the real reason I'm interested in this is I admire people who try to say something explicit with their music, obviously. Explicit to a degree. If it becomes just a platform, then it's not very interesting music. Right? Not very interesting lyrically.

[Hanna Rosen]

So your interest is in the music being political, not like a musician being political? Cause it's actually really tricky to make political art. It's like a legitimate question that a lot of artists face. Like, do I say anything about the election?

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

I mean, yes, in this case, in Dropkick Murphy's case, it's both. It's Ken Casey will go out on stage and talk overtly politically about even trade policy, but also the music, especially in this latest album. So, yeah, and by the way, it's kind of easy for performers to go out and make anodyne statements about this or that in politics and have their music be about things other than the politics. Obviously, when you make political music, you're going to drive away some people. You know, that's just the nature of it. And it's not in the nature of commercial music to drive away anyone.

[Hanna Rosen]

Okay, that's enough of me. Here's Jeff talking to Casey.

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

Are you sick of talking about shipping up the Boston and the Departed?

[Ken Casey]

Not really. People say, do you get sick of that song? And I say, no, the key to that song is it's two minutes, actually, when we play it live. It's one minute, 50 seconds. So it's over before it starts. You know, like, if I would hate to have, like, your biggest hit be Stairway to Heaven. Yeah. Like, I mean, even our second most popular song, Rose Tattoo, is over five minutes. And I can see, you know, sometimes by the end of that, as much as I love the song, I'm like, I wish this was short, like shipping up to Boston. But no, I mean, I think if there's any way for a punk band to kind of break through another level of success, it's pretty cool. When it's a Oscar winning movie by, you know, one of your favorite directors about the city you're from.

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

Talk about Woody Guthrie and how you built on Woody Guthrie to write that song.

[Ken Casey]

You know, one of the things that attracted me to punk rock and attracted me to Irish music was that protest element, you know, and rebel element to a lot of it. And then that's how I stumbled onto a lot of, you know, the American protesting is. And Woody being, you know, the leader of that pack. And then we get a phone call one day, early 2000s, from Woody's daughter Nora. And she said, I'd like to offer the band the opportunity to come down and see my father's archives of unpublished lyrics that he never put to music. And I was like, is this a joke? Is someone, like, punking us here? And I got to go down. The archives at the time was still in New York City. And, you know, the original papers he wrote the songs on, you could see the stains on the papers. You could literally. Nora says, you can smell like, did he write this near the ocean? Did he write this in Oklahoma? Or whatever? So it was just a really unique look into his Whole work. And we don't often write music first. It's usually lyrics first and a melody and then we shape the song around it. But we had written the music to ship it up to Boston and we were just waiting to put the. For me to write some words. And I flip through and here's this song, Shipping up to Boston, which stood out so much because it was so short and so kind of silly. And one of the keys to that song's success is there's a huge instrumental sections in the song that really make you wait for the chorus. And I know that if I was writing the lyrics to that, I would have never left that space. I would have wrote a pre chorus there and you wouldn't have had that wait for the payoff. But obviously when we chose to put Woody's lyrics in there, there were no other lyrics to add in. So you had the four line verse and then you had the shipping up the Boston chorus, which I wish he had a note of what he was singing about on that song.

[Dropkick Murphy's Fan]

I'm shipping out to Monster. Shout out to Monster.

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

I was interviewing Bruce Springsteen once on the subject of Stevie Van Zandt. And I was writing about Lil Steven and about how he was doing overtly political music. And I'll always remember what Bruce said. He said, writing political music is a hard slog through Muddy Waters. I mean, he was praising Steven. And you, you guys are one of the few bands that goes right at it. I mean, you use metaphor and you use allusion, but you're really going at it, especially on this new album. And I'm wondering, is it a hard slog? Are you giving up something commercially by voicing your actual opinions about the world?

[Ken Casey]

Well, I do think from a timelessness sense, we do try to do it in a. Not naming names and dates.

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

No, I know you're not gonna come out against tariffs on a Tuesday or something. Yeah.

[Ken Casey]

But everyone knows what we're talking about when we do it and why we do it. And yes, I like to say that the ban started in 96. Our goal was to be a little bit different in the sense that we spoke for people that were like living life in the middle class or working class people. So if you start your band on that and you've held to those ideals for coming, next year will be 30 years. And you've done that the whole 30 years. And then you get to this era and you're gonna back down from it. It's almost like the whole thing seems like it was meant to be a test run. For the time we're in now. So for us to not go out on a limb about it would sell like our whole career short, you know, and will it eventually hurt us or whatever? Who's to say? I kind of look at it the way I look at, like, reviews or comments on social media. It's like you can't pay attention to it. You just gotta do what feels instinctually right and right in your heart. And I say this to Trumpers all the time that I know enough to have a conversation with at least, or bother to. I say, listen, you don't like our opinion, you don't like what we have to say. Most of you used to, by the way, before everything changed when that guy came down the escalator. But regardless of what you think of our message, you gotta know that this ban wouldn't exist if it wasn't for these core beliefs. And so a lot of music that you do like came out of that fire and the new single, like, who'll stand with Us? Like, look at the words. It's like we're singing about people being oppressed by those in power with wealth that we could never imagine. Who's got a problem with that?

[Dropkick Murphy's Fan]

It's been stolen We've been robbed of our freedom We've been held down and beholden to the bosses and the bankers who never gave their share of any blood of any sweat I bet he cares. We'll stand with us don't tell us everything is fine we'll stand with us.

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

You have gotten into direct confrontations with fans at shows over your politics and their politics. In today's age, that's pretty rare. Money comes first. Popularity comes first. Any doubt ever about the path you now set yourself on?

[Ken Casey]

I get back to the fact that we're singing these songs that I believe in my heart of hearts are what represents, you know, regular, ordinary people. And when I see someone, and by the way, I'm not, I'm not out there saying, hey, you in the front row, who'd you vote for? You know what I mean? But like, when someone comes to be protest back with a MAGA shirt in the front row, it's like they know.

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

What they're doing and you know that they know what they're doing.

[Ken Casey]

Yeah. And of course, those are the ones that have gone viral. But there's other nights when I just talk from the stage and I do get, listen, I understand there's an amount of people that'll say this is the counter argument is, hey, you know what? I worked all week. I paid my money to come see music. I don't want to hear you shove your politics down my throat. And I can respect that to a degree. I've always had a. And for the most part of our career, we've always said we'll leave our politics to the lyrics because we've been pretty overtly political. So if you read the lyrics, you know, and I do think sometimes you get more people to your side, but that way, because, you know, it's like fishing. You're just dangling the carrot. You're not clubbing the fish over the head. However, at this point in time, it's.

[Dropkick Murphy's Fan]

Like, you know, the alarm bells are ringing.

[Hanna Rosen]

So what's interesting to you about Ken Casey is he is taking a risk. Like essentially he's putting himself out there, possibly like turning off his own fan base.

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

He literally does turn off some of his own fan base and doesn't seem to care, which I admire these days. I happen to admire anyone who will risk alienating, let's say, MAGA America for a point, right? I'm not trying to be. I'm not trying to be overly partisan or political here. I'm just saying that it's very interesting that he'll put his money and the whole band will put their money where their mouth is. And he also has. And this is what I admire about him. He has a large heartedness about it, you know, he doesn't. He's not one of these, they're all deplorable kind of people. I was having a hard time adjusting to the idea that Trump had won yet again after all the ink we had spilled about the dangers of Trumpism. Right? And then I realized that I just like Americans and I like America. And so we're gonna. I'm just gonna figure my way through this and not going to sort of be hard hearted about it. And what I saw in Ken Casey was a model of how one could be in these circumstances. I find him to be a thoughtful person and a patriotic person and a guy who makes really loud, interesting music even though he's already in his 50s, I guess. So I admire that being personally in my 50s.

[Hanna Rosen]

After the break, Casey makes a wager with a fan.

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[Hanna Rosen]

Okay, we're back. Jeff is asking Casey what it's been like for him to watch friends and loved ones shift from being moderate Democrats to fully embracing Trump.

[Ken Casey]

Even when my friends, for example, would have been considered center left Democrats, I think I was probably a little bit more on the more progressive side of them, partially because of my world travels, you know what I mean? Like, you know, you change when you see the world and see things outside of your own backyard. But as I noticed that shift happening, it was the classic example of the playbook of division in politics where the right told white Senate Democrats that these people don't care about you. They're not there for you. White men are on the way out. You know what I mean? And then they started to use the course, the other tropes of race and sexuality and trans. It's like, you know, and just little by little, I feel like a lot of these white working class Democrats just crept over saying, well, at least these guys want me. And yeah, they want you, but they really just want to use you.

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

Do you think the Democrats don't want them?

[Ken Casey]

I don't think it's that. I think that the Republicans have just done a great job at lying to them to make them feel, you know, and listen, obviously we can't speak this broadly for this many people. There's some people that just chose racism above all. Holy crap. This guy makes it okay for me to say the horrible things I used to have to whisper to my friends. Yeah, I'm voting against what's best for my family, my pension, everything else. But I want to be able to speak loud about this stuff, you know? But they've been, you gotta tip your cap, man. They've pulled it off. They've tricked a lot of people.

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

Well, look, recognizing that you're actually, your job is to be a Celtic punk rocker, and not a Democratic political party strategist, I will ask you. Nevertheless, there's a crisis for the Democrats in that white men especially, but also black men and Hispanic men, think that the party is pro male. I recognize what you're saying about the Republicans and the plays that they're running, but if you were telling the Democrats what to do, what plays would you run to counteract that?

[Ken Casey]

Well, by the way, it gets back to that point, and I often say this, when you did mention you're a guy from a band, there's really nothing I'd rather be talking about less, you know what I mean, than where we're at right now. So, like, when people think, like, I'm on stage yapping away because I want to be talking about it, trust me, I don't. But anyway, if I was to say, as someone who has a, you know, majority white male fan base, the band, I would say that, I mean, we talking about what's right or wrong? Are we talking about what you need to win an election? If we're talking about what you need to win an election, I guess you do have to bring the olive branch out to say that, like, you know, masculine guys in the trades are not vilified, you know, and I don't necessarily think they have been. But, I mean, I look at a guy like a friend of mine, you know, Sean o' Brien from the Teamsters, you know, and spoke at the Republican convention, and he'll say, I'm not a Republican, I'm a Democrat, but I'm a Democrat of what the party used to stand for, and that he's gonna go rogue to wherever he has to. That's best for his members and his people. And, you know, so when you see people like that saying that the Democratic Party isn't working for them anymore, then there is something to listen to because that guy has, you know, a million people that he's representing, and I think there's room for everybody, you know what I mean? I think that the policies of the Trump administration, and it's frankly just cruelty, should, if anything, unite anybody that's center left and far progressive. Because, like, the things we want at this point should just be freedom and kindness and civility and treating people with dignity. I mean, if that shouldn't unite the country that wants to do good things, then. But it's the funny thing about the left. Even with all that going on, there'll still be that division and bickering sometimes.

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

Tell me the story from your perspective of there's a very famous Clip from a show. You have this colloquy, essentially this discourse, with a guy wearing a Trump shirt, a MAGA shirt. How do you make the decision? You're on stage in front of several thousand people. You're doing your very high velocity show. How do you decide that you're gonna pause and you're gonna educate? I mean, I think that's what is in your mind. I'm gonna teach this guy about domestic clothing production in the middle of a punk show?

[Ken Casey]

Sure. Well, so sometimes, you know, sometimes when someone's trying to make a statement of being just, for example, in the front row with a MAGA shirt on, you'd say, they're dying for attention right now. I'm not gonna give them the attention they crave, so I might totally ignore them. But the one you're talking about, there was a blow up of Trump's head.

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

Like, you know, like, this is in Florida, right?

[Ken Casey]

Yeah, Florida. I'm gonna say maybe. I'm just guessing, you know, wait to mid-60s and a kid in his 30s, and they both had MAGA shirts and gear.

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

So it was trolling you.

[Ken Casey]

Yeah, so it was clear. But it taught me a big lesson, though, that night, because, you know, we had this interaction where I made a bet with him.

[Dropkick Murphy's Fan]

I'd like to propose a friendly wager. You can't lose this wager. Would you, in the name of dialogue and discourse, and I appreciate being here, would you agree to a friendly wager?

[Ken Casey]

He says, sure.

[Dropkick Murphy's Fan]

That's a good sport. Well, first of all, do you support American workers? Of course you do. Of course you do. Okay, so. And you support American businesses, obviously. Okay, so I don't know if you guys are aware because we don't go around bragging about it, but Drop Kick Murphy's always sells proudly made in America merchandise.

[Ken Casey]

Only I told him Dropkick Murphy's merchandise is all made in America. Because I feel like, hey, we put our money where our mouth is, you know? And I find that MAGA often doesn't. And so I made a bet. Like, I'll give you $100 and the shirt if your shirt's made in America. And if it isn't, you just get the shirt.

[Dropkick Murphy's Fan]

All right, Matt, can we get a little drum roll, please? Sir? Could you both turn backwards? Don't worry, no one's gonna. He just needs to check your tags on your shirt, your hat. Just need to see where they made.

It's made in Nicaragua.

[Ken Casey]

And I kept it respectful. And when he lost the bet because the shirt was made in Nicaragua. He took it off and we gave them shirts, and they laughed. And I'm like, oh, wow, that doesn't often go like that with Magger. And I went down after, and I said, hey, thanks for being a good sport. And he said, hey, I've been coming to see you guys for 20 years. I consider you family, and I don't let politics come between me and family. And I was like, wow, what a lesson that guy just taught me, to not look at any person in a MAGA shirt and automatically think that they're the worst of the worst of the worst. I still think that if you're willing to sport a shirt, that for a guy who is doing what he's doing now, you certainly don't have my love and devotion. But in my mind, oftentimes, if I see someone in a MAGA shirt, I'm. I'm all but thinking in my head, he's burning crosses, you know what I mean? And this guy, man, he was ready to have some civil discussion and laugh about it a little bit. And I have a few friends like that, you know, that they'll still. I swear, sometimes I think they'll just stay Maga just because they don't want to admit they were wrong.

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

It's hard for a guy to just say, I got played.

[Ken Casey]

Right.

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

And that's something that you've been arguing, is that this is fundamentally a grift. Is that fair?

[Ken Casey]

Yeah. And that I don't look at most people and say, like, hey, you know, I don't even know Donald Trump. You know what I mean? Like, I don't want to fall out with someone for life that I especially that I knew my whole life over this guy.

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

Have you lost friends?

[Ken Casey]

I've definitely lost peripheral friends and my closer friends that have gone maga. We. We've done our best to avoid the subject, but we don't really hang out. How do you hang out with someone when you know. But we can stay cordial? You know what I mean? But, yeah, it's gotten away with a lot of. Yeah. I mean, I'm lucky in my family at least. I don't have that. Like, everyone's on the same page. I don't have anyone throwing the turkey at me across the table, at least, you know?

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

Right, right, right. Talk a little bit about the new album and the goal of the album. Obviously, there are aesthetic goals. You're trying to make great music, and you do. I'm admitting my bias here, but there's some songs here that are very straight ahead. Leave no Room for doubt.

[Ken Casey]

I mean, you know, you write about what you're passionate about, and I'm pretty passionate about what's happening to the country that I'm a citizen of.

[Dropkick Murphy's Fan]

Fact is fiction. Russell is a way of turning in a wave of misinformation designed to define. We got to pay attention. Hard times, headlines.

[Ken Casey]

I just. I can't see writing about something else. I feel like if we. If we, you know, like I said, it would be one thing if we wrote 13 songs about the situation. People might be like, all right, we get it. But that.

[Dropkick Murphy's Fan]

That.

[Ken Casey]

That's why it's authentic for us, because we do live our lives right. This song's about our children. This song's about a friend from another band. But there's also these songs about the rage we feel inside right now, you know, so if we didn't write about that right now, people would be like, what's wrong with Dropkick Murphy's? They're trying to, you know, stuff it down and not deal with it, you know, and it's just not who we are.

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

I guess the final question is, do you think the fever is just gonna break? You see anything that makes you think, okay, they're gonna understand that this is a grift. They're gonna understand that class issues are more important than gender issues and race issues and so on.

[Ken Casey]

I keep. You know, I always say I'm never one to root against America, so I don't want to say I hope it gets so bad that they see it, but I think that's what it might take.

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

Ken Casey, Tropkick Murphy, thank you very much for joining us. I appreciate it.

[Ken Casey]

Thank you.

[Hanna Rosen]

Thank you to Jeff Goldberg for bringing us this conversation. Dropkick Murphy's new album for the People is out tomorrow, July 4th. This episode of Radio Atlantic was produced by Rosie Hughes. It was edited by Claudina B. We had engineering support from Rob Smirciak and fact checking by Alex Marogno Porto. Claudina Baid is the executive producer of Atlantic Audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor. Listeners, if you like what you hear on Radio Atlantic, you can support our work and the work of all Atlantic journalists when you subscribe to The Atlantic at theatlantic.com listener hi, I'm Hanna Rosen. Talk to you next.