The Strange, Lonely Childhood of Neko Case

Summary

Radio Atlantic: The Strange, Lonely Childhood of Nico Case
Hosted by Hanna Rosen | Released on February 13, 2025

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Introduction to Nico Case and Her Artistic Journey

In the February 13, 2025 episode of Radio Atlantic, host Hanna Rosen delves deep into the life and artistry of Nico Case, a revered figure in the indie music scene. Known as a lead vocalist of the indie pop collective The New Pornographers and for her impactful solo career, Case's music resonates deeply with indie music aficionados. Rosen sets the stage by highlighting the complexity and depth of Case's lyrics, which often require multiple listens to fully grasp their nuanced meanings.

Hanna Rosen [01:28]:
"But what's most distinct about her are her lyrics, which are often oblique, like a song seems to be about a car crash, but maybe it's about incomplete grief. You have to listen a few times before you get closer to it."

Unveiling the Memoir: "The Harder I Fight the More I Love You"

Case recently released her memoir, sharing its title with her 2013 album, The Worse Things Get, The Harder I Fight the More I Love You. The memoir offers a raw and introspective look into her tumultuous upbringing, characterized by poverty and neglect. Raised by teenage parents who, according to Case's speculation, never intended to have a child, her early life was fraught with challenges.

Hanna Rosen [02:13]:
"She writes about growing up poor and neglected. Her parents were teenagers when they had her, and her guess is that neither of them ever wanted a child."

By the end of her sophomore year in high school, Case sought emancipation from her mother, a testament to the strained family dynamics she endured.

Hanna Rosen [02:00]:
"And so Keis hid a lot behind her music."

The Power of Music: A Lifeline and a Form of Expression

Music served as both a sanctuary and a means of self-expression for Case. Reflecting on her childhood, she recalls moments of solace found in the school library, where she immersed herself in bands like Blondie, a ritual indicative of her neurodivergent ADHD tendencies.

Nico Case [03:17]:
"By Blondie over and over and over and over, like only a neurodivergent ADHD kid can do."

Despite her profound love for music, Case grappled with self-confidence, a struggle rooted in societal expectations of femininity in the United States.

Nico Case [04:20]:
"Well, I was raised to be female in the United States of America, so I wasn't raised with a lot of self confidence."

Her journey into singing wasn't a calculated decision but a compulsion driven by an intense desire to create and express.

Nico Case [04:34]:
"It wasn't so much deciding I could do it. It was just that I couldn't help but to do it because the desire was so intense."

Challenging the Country Music Paradigm

Case is notably critical of the current state of the country music industry, labeling it as "misogynist and racist." She underscores the industry's resistance to evolution, contrasting it with the more progressive nature of rock and roll.

Nico Case [06:43]:
"Oh, it's straight up misogynist and racist and hateful. We don't even have to sugarcoat that one."

She expresses admiration for trailblazers like Beyoncé, whose foray into country music symbolizes the breaking of traditional barriers.

Hanna Rosen [08:14]:
"I mean, there was a moment. There was a good moment for women in country music."

Memoir Insights: Navigating Personal Trauma and Creativity

Case emphasizes that her memoir was not an attempt to decode her song lyrics but rather a genuine exploration of her life's experiences. She aims to present her stories authentically without diminishing the emotional connection listeners have with her music.

Nico Case [08:47]:
"I tried to not give away the songs as much as possible. Like, there was a couple times where I kind of went into them. But I don't like to ruin songs for people."

A poignant moment in both her memoir and music is the song "Nearly Midnight Honolulu," which recounts a traumatic event involving a bus stop incident in Hawaii. Initially perceived as a metaphor for her relationship with her mother, Case clarifies that it was a real event where she felt helpless witnessing a crisis.

Hanna Rosen [09:52]:
"And I just felt so helpless."

Nico Case [10:55]:
"I felt absolutely unafraid and I was seeing an actual moment of grace in life and I couldn't believe it."

Gender Identity and Personal Evolution

Case discusses her fluid approach to gender, identifying as gender fluid while still using traditional pronouns. She celebrates the younger generations' courage in embracing their identities, which has afforded her deeper self-awareness.

Nico Case [20:55]:
"I am so thrilled and proud and excited by generations younger than mine who are not backing down from who they think they are."

Despite societal resistance, especially towards LGBTQ+ individuals, Case remains steadfast in her identity, balancing her personal evolution with the harsh realities of the world.

Nico Case [22:07]:
"I am neither. I still call myself she, her. I'm used to it. It doesn't bother me."

Financial Struggles and Resilience

Contrary to her artistic success, Case candidly admits to financial instability, attributing it to a series of unfortunate events including her house burning down, the impacts of COVID-19, and challenges in the streaming landscape.

Nico Case [18:01]:
"Yeah. The confluence of my house burning down Covid and streaming those three things together."

Experiencing Loss and Embracing Joy

A recent profound experience for Case was witnessing the death of a close friend, an event that transformed her perspective on fear and joy. She describes the communal honor walk and the diverse representation of people coming together in honor of her friend as a moment of collective grace.

Nico Case [24:46]:
"I felt so utterly galvanized against the fear and so utterly galvanized in that joy is the way forward."

This experience reinforced her belief in embracing exuberant joy as a path forward amidst life's adversities.

Forgiveness and Complex Emotions

Forgiveness is a recurrent theme in Case's memoir and discussions. She differentiates between forgiving and ignoring contempt, advocating for an authentic acknowledgment of one's feelings without being constrained by them.

Nico Case [28:01]:
"If something doesn't stir anything but contempt in you, then there's a reason. Don't canonize your contempt, but don't ignore it."

Her relationship with her father is layered with compassion and sadness, recognizing his struggles while acknowledging the impact of his actions on her life.

Nico Case [29:17]:
"I have a lot of compassion for my dad and a lot of sadness because I feel like his development was arrested completely."

Reflections on Personal Growth and Music

Despite the myriad challenges, Case finds solace and strength in her music, viewing it not as a product of trauma but as a constant companion that never let her down.

Nico Case [18:21]:
"Music is the only thing that never let me down. But trauma did not make me a great musician."

Her favorite song, though melancholic, embodies a sense of self-control and clarity, offering a bittersweet sense of empowerment.

Nico Case [31:42]:
"It's a moment of actually seeing yourself clearly."

Conclusion: A Journey of Resilience and Artistic Integrity

Nico Case's narrative, as explored in this episode of Radio Atlantic, is one of resilience amidst adversity, using music as both a shield and a sword to navigate the complexities of her past and present. Her candid discussions about gender, forgiveness, and the realities of the music industry provide listeners with a profound understanding of the artist behind the evocative lyrics.

Hanna Rosen [33:00]:
"Thank you for listening."

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Notable Quotes:

• Nico Case [04:43]:
  "It's straight up misogynist and racist and hateful."

• Nico Case [16:37]:
  "The mythology of people needing to suffer to make beautiful things or just art or creative things in general is not true."

• Nico Case [28:01]:
  "If something doesn't stir anything but contempt in you, then there's a reason. Don't canonize your contempt, but don't ignore it."

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Produced by Janae West, Edited by Claudine Baid, Rob Smirciak Engineered, and Genevieve Finn Fact-Checked.

Transcript

[Hanna Rosen]

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[Nico Case]

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[Hanna Rosen]

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[Nico Case]

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[Hanna Rosen]

Just a quick note, this episode contains some cursing that you might not usually hear on this show. Nico Case is one of those musicians that people have really strong personal attachments to, especially indie music lovers of a certain generation. Like, I know two people who have named a child after her. Nico Case is a lead vocalist of the indie pop collective the New Pornographers, and she's also had a long solo career.

[Nico Case]

But.

[Hanna Rosen]

But what's most distinct about her are her lyrics, which are often oblique, like a song seems to be about a car crash, but maybe it's about incomplete grief. You have to listen a few times before you get closer to it.

[Nico Case]

Of a Falcon sedan, 1969. The paper said 75. There were no survivors.

[Hanna Rosen]

And then there are lots of times when Kayce seems to be writing about herself, but it's not entirely clear.

[Nico Case]

Were they trying to tell me something? Were they telling me to run?

[Hanna Rosen]

This is Radio Atlantic. I'm Hanna Rosen. Last month, Nico Case peeled back some of the mystery. She's written a memoir called the Harder I Fight the More I Love you, which shares part of the same title as one of her albums from 2013. She writes about growing up poor and neglected. Her parents were teenagers when they had her, and her guess is that neither of them ever wanted a child. By the end of her sophomore year in high school, she asked her mom for emancipation. She writes, quote, she couldn't sign it quickly enough. She didn't even have to think it over. And so Keis hid a lot behind her music. One of my favorite scenes is you as a kid in the school library. Like, you remembered that the beanbags were corduroy. You know, the image was so perfect. Like, it was such a perfect image from that era. And you were hiding out with your headphones on. I think you mentioned listening to Atomic.

[Nico Case]

By Blondie over and over and over and over, like only a neurodivergent ADHD kid can do.

[Hanna Rosen]

Right, Right. Like, just a million times. Do you have words for what that was like for you? Cause it felt like, okay, that's the moment that she discovers the power of music. Like in a movie, that would be the scene in which you discover, like, what music is for and what it does to you.

[Nico Case]

Music was always just there, and I took it for granted, but I also leaned really heavily into it. I did not make a connection that music was something I would want to do or I would do because I was kind of, you know, I was just a girl. And I did not make a connection between myself and Blondie or myself and the Go Gos. I just knew I really loved them.

[Hanna Rosen]

So why did it take so long, do you think, for you to, you know, open your mouth and sing like, you played in bands, but you didn't really sing for a while?

[Nico Case]

Well, I was raised to be female in the United States of America, so I wasn't raised with a lot of self confidence.

[Hanna Rosen]

So what was the point where you were like, oh, I can do this?

[Nico Case]

It wasn't so much deciding I could do it. It was just that I couldn't help but to do it because the desire was so intense.

[Hanna Rosen]

Now the desire is the desire to make music, to write music, to sing. Like, what was the desire even just.

[Nico Case]

To sit near it? Anything. Anything I could have.

[Hanna Rosen]

In the book, you complain about your voice. You write that it was neither pretty nor powerful. And that's now.

[Nico Case]

Oh, that's not a complaint.

[Hanna Rosen]

It's not a complaint. Okay, okay, no, no.

[Nico Case]

That it's not powerful and it's not pretty. Like, those are things that, you know, I wish it were powerful. I don't care that it's not pretty. I very much enjoy hearing women singing in ways other than being pretty. And, you know, singing is an incredible physical feeling. It's like your mouth is a fire hose and you can twist your insides and make a powerful thing come out to the point where your feet levitate ever so slightly off the floor. Chimney falls and lovers blaze. Thought that I was young it gets so physical. It is so athletic, and there's nothing else like it.

[Hanna Rosen]

Well, even in this just few minutes that we've been talking, you, like, describe a little journey from a point where, you know, the world gives you a Set of expectations and tells you you can and can't do things. And you seem to sort of find your way out of that, you know, either through your voice or how you experience music, or even the way you write about institutions like you write, you know, the country music institution was limiting in some way.

[Nico Case]

Oh, it's straight up misogynist and racist and hateful. We don't even have to sugarcoat that one. The current country music scene of radio music in Nashville is absolutely heinous. And I watch young women try to get in there and I love them so much and they're trying and I'm like, don't even bother. Let that thing die. That thing is poison. Come over here. Let's make the other thing.

[Hanna Rosen]

And is the other thing like you inventing your own genres? You know, like you've given them names over the years that are not quite country noir or odd rock and things like that? Like, is that the way out? Is that what you tell women?

[Nico Case]

I think that what it is, is the gatekeepers of country music are absolutely terrified that it might evolve, Whereas the gatekeepers of rock and roll don't have a problem with evolution. But there's something very white supremacist about how country music works, and they're really, really dialing down on it now.

[Hanna Rosen]

So you don't mean just then. You're talking about then and now. There's a resurgence. I think there was a great moment.

[Nico Case]

I think it's worse now. I think it's far worse now than it has been in a long time.

[Hanna Rosen]

I mean, there was a moment. There was a good moment for women. It was a brief good moment for women in country music.

[Nico Case]

There have been a couple, yeah. You know, sometimes people are so talented that they're undeniable and not even the gatekeepers can keep them out.

[Hanna Rosen]

Uh huh. Well, it's good Beyonce made that country album then.

[Nico Case]

We're lucky to have Beyonce doing a lot of things.

[Hanna Rosen]

That's true. That's true. I think that reading your memoir for me, changed how I heard your music. And I wasn't sure if that was the right thing or not the intended thing. Is that something you explicitly thought you were doing? Like, at times I almost read it like, oh, this is a key to some lyrics. And I wasn't sure if that was correct or not correct.

[Nico Case]

I tried to not give away the songs as much as possible. Like, there was a couple times where I kind of went into them. But I don't like to ruin songs for people. You know how you will hear the lyrics of a song one way, and then you find out it's not the lyric that you thought it was. And then you're like, oh, yeah, not as good anymore. You know, like, if you think you know what a song's about and it makes you feel connected emotionally to it, and it becomes a little chapter heading in your life, you know, you don't want to ruin that for people.

[Hanna Rosen]

Yeah, but I don't know if it's ruined it. I think it's just complicated. Like, I'll give you an example and maybe just indulge me and you can walk me through the process. Like, I'm the listener. You're the singer. When I read the book title, of course, I immediately thought of your 2013 album, the worse things get, the harder I fight. The harder I fight, the more I love you. For obvious reasons, because of the song Nearly Midnight Honolulu, which has run in my head for 10 years.

[Nico Case]

Hey, little kid that I saw at the bus stop one day, you know.

[Hanna Rosen]

Which starts with the kid at the bus stop. And then the perspective is quickly shifting, so it's hard to keep up with who's the you and who's the me.

[Nico Case]

When your mother said. Your mother said. Like, I couldn't hear her. She said, get the fuck away from me.

[Hanna Rosen]

And then that kind of devastating line about, you know, my mother, she did not love me.

[Nico Case]

My mother, she did not love me. No, no, no, no, no.

[Hanna Rosen]

In your mind, is that line related to the book in any way?

[Nico Case]

Well, that song was a real event. I was really at a bus stop in Honolulu, fleeing Hawaii, and I saw it happen, and I just felt so helpless.

[Hanna Rosen]

You felt helpless to protect the kid?

[Nico Case]

Yeah, but the kid also was being very resilient, and she was, you know, entertaining herself. She was very spunky and cute, and her mom was just an asshole.

[Hanna Rosen]

I mean, reading your book, I did think, oh, Nico. That line resonated with Nico for a reason. Because of struggles with your own mother. Do you mean for people to read the memoir that way?

[Nico Case]

Well, I mean, I told the story. I just. I've never written a book before, and, you know, I didn't set out to write a memoir. I wanted to write fiction. But, you know, it was the height of the pandemic, and Hatchett said, we'll pay you to write a memoir, though. And I was like, okay, a memoir it is. And that's not a complaint or, you know, they didn't hold my heels to the fire or anything. I just thought, okay, well, it'll just be a little Challenging. Because, you know, talking about yourself or writing about yourself to yourself isn't the most exciting thing ever. You know, you spend a lot of time with yourself. So I don't think of myself as, like, oh, people are really gonna wanna know this. So, I mean, that's one of the reasons I tried to pick more interesting stories from childhood that were scenes maybe of good things too, because I didn't want it to just be, you know, oh, poor me. Especially because it's not unusual. It's most people's experience. I mean, you know, my situation with my mother is pretty bizarre. But neglect or abuse or things like that, those are most people's experiences. Or growing up really poor, like that is most people.

[Hanna Rosen]

Mm. I think your experience is actually pretty unusual.

[Nico Case]

Yeah, it's pretty damn weird.

[Hanna Rosen]

Pretty damn weird it is. When Case was in second grade, her father told her that her mother had died of cancer, which was surprising because Case didn't even realize her mother was sick. And then a year and a half later, her dad said to her one day, I don't want you to think your mom's a ghost. But she came home. As Case recalls in her memoir, the story was that her mother had had terminal cancer and gone to Hawaii to recover, but didn't want Case to see her so ill. And Case, who, remember, was a little kid, believed her. She had her mom back. She was happy. It only occurred to her later, after many, many years and another disappearing act from her mother, that she might never have been sick in the first place. It's one of the weirdest stories I've ever heard. I mean, it is a little shocking and hard to forget. And I'm not sure if you knew that or recognized.

[Nico Case]

I didn't know that until I was in my early 20s and I told somebody I knew that my mom faked her death. And then they were like, that's the weirdest fucking thing I've ever heard. And I was like, oh, yeah, that is actually pretty weird, isn't it? But, you know, kids, like, kids just think what's happening to them is what happens. So, you know, I just didn't. It didn't occur to me.

[Hanna Rosen]

So where did it register? Cause now I see that what I am assuming about that song isn't actually how you move through the process. Like, I just assumed you had that in your head when you wrote the lyric she did not love Me. Cause that lyric is. I mean, it is haunting. Like, even the way you sing it and the pacing of it. I just assumed you had that in Your head. But maybe you didn't. Maybe you just had it in your subconscious somewhere.

[Nico Case]

It's in me all the time. And you know, it's just not my fault. But don't you ever shut up? Please, kid, have yourself. She didn't love me. And it's just the fact.

[Hanna Rosen]

When you work out kind of memories and pains in song. I don't know, is cathartic a banal word to use here? Like, is that, like, does it do something for you to work it out and learn?

[Nico Case]

Only in a super nerdy, kind of neurodivergent Virgo way where I'm like, oh, I'm taking all the things and I'm organizing them in this box. And so now I can put this box over here like a hard drive so my brain has more room in it. And it's all color coded, and I know where it is. That's like Virgo organization.

[Hanna Rosen]

Interesting.

[Nico Case]

Yeah.

[Hanna Rosen]

Because I feel like one glib way to read a memoir like, this is, oh, from family trauma and a mother who didn't love you comes immense creativity. Like, how wonderful. What's wrong or right about that interpretation?

[Nico Case]

Well, the mythology of people needing to suffer to make beautiful things or just art or creative things in general is not true.

[Hanna Rosen]

You mean they don't need to. Because it feels like reading this book, your suffering is related to how you think and work through things and organize things.

[Nico Case]

No. If I had had a supportive upbringing, I would be able to read music and play instruments and would probably be a lot further along. You don't need that.

[Hanna Rosen]

So to you, it just feels like pure baggage. It's like a thing you've had to tolerate, but you could have been a singer some other way.

[Nico Case]

Cause I look at it, it's an absolute trunk of shit. It's not. It didn't. Like, the things that I admire about myself are, despite those things, you know, Like, I still am a trusting person. I still really want to see the good in people. And sometimes I will make mistakes and trust people I shouldn't. And I could beat myself up about that, or I could just go, no, you still want to believe people are good. And I think that's a more important quality than whether or not you're wily enough to spot a jerk a mile away. You know what I mean?

[Hanna Rosen]

Yeah. I was more thinking, like, you had this life, and you had to escape this life and find your family elsewhere, and you had a huge, strong motivation to do that, and so you found music. Yes, but that's just another way of saying Trauma made you a great musician?

[Nico Case]

No, music is the only thing that never let me down. But trauma did not make me a great musician. Like, I am a journeyman at best. And you know, I'm broke. I don't know. I think great musicians do other things.

[Hanna Rosen]

Did you just say you were broke?

[Nico Case]

Yeah.

[Hanna Rosen]

Do you mean financially broke or personally broke?

[Nico Case]

Financially broke.

[Hanna Rosen]

Really? How is that possible? I think fans would be shocked.

[Nico Case]

The confluence of my house burning down Covid and streaming those three things together.

[Hanna Rosen]

Wow.

[Nico Case]

And I cannot catch up.

[Hanna Rosen]

When we come back, more with Nico Case on politics on forgiveness and a recent experience with her friend's death that she said felt like getting on a spaceship to go to the moon.

[Nico Case]

I felt absolutely unafraid and I was seeing an actual moment of grace in life and I couldn't believe it.

[Hanna Rosen]

That's after the break with the Venmo debit card, you can turn the mini golf outing your co workers paid you.

[Nico Case]

Back for.

[Hanna Rosen]

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[Nico Case]

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[Hanna Rosen]

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[Nico Case]

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[Hanna Rosen]

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[Nico Case]

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[Hanna Rosen]

I wanted to ask you about gender because it's the way you write and sing about gender is very much the way a lot of people talk about gender now. And I'm curious how you have watched the evolution of how people inhabit and think about gender. Like in your lyrics to Man, I'm a man.

[Nico Case]

That's what you raised me to be.

[Hanna Rosen]

You don't mean that literally. What do you mean by I'm a man?

[Nico Case]

I do mean it literally. I'm a man. This inner citizen of mankind. It's what kind of animal I am. I mean, I am of the species. I am a man. Like whatever's going on downstairs doesn't matter. Like I have all my faculties. You can call a female or A male lion. A lion. And there's still a lion. I'm a man in that same way. And I am so thrilled and proud and excited by generations younger than mine who are not backing down from who they think they are. And the idea that they get to be who they are, that has been one of the most exciting things I've ever witnessed. And it has given me so much more insight into myself, you know? Cause I never felt like a girl or totally a guy. I'm more of a gender fluid person.

[Hanna Rosen]

And when you say it's taught you so much about yourself, what do you mean? Like, what did you. Because in the book, there is one way in which you very much inhabit the experience of a woman of that generation. Just like, you know, at the hands of careless and arrogant and brutal men, like a teacher, older brothers, fellow musicians. And then there's a sense, I imagine, of being trapped in that. So what have you learned about yourself in this era of gender fluidity? Like, how do you think about yourself?

[Nico Case]

As neither. I am neither. I still call myself she, her. I'm used to it. It doesn't bother me. And partly because the world hates women so much, I will not abandon it. I just won't. But I also understand that the world hates gender fluid people and trans people, LGBTQ people, and I understand the importance of not abandoning that either.

[Hanna Rosen]

Mm. Mm. So you don't see the world. You see the world as making some cultural progress in how we think of what's a man and what's a woman in some corners, but not a lot of progress politically or socially.

[Nico Case]

Politically, we are fucked socially. I don't think what, you know, the President and his people represent represents the American people. I don't believe that Americans in general have a hatred of or a problem with people who are not white, who are lgbtq, who are immigrants. I just don't think they do.

[Hanna Rosen]

To shift away from politics since we get a lot of it over here in D.C. although this is related, the thing.

[Nico Case]

Well, I mean, a human being's right to be is. I mean, that's just everyday life. Like politics and everyday life just. They just aren't separate. Not that I want to talk about them politics specifically, because I just refuse to be afraid.

[Hanna Rosen]

Do you feel like that's something you found at this age because you've said, oh, there are times in your life where you haven't had self confidence, you've been depressed, or, you know, you've kind of lost your mind? Even in one section of the book, is it easier to not be afraid now.

[Nico Case]

Well, I have really benefited from menopause. And, you know, a lot of people who menstruate who don't anymore have said the same things about what, you know, the hormone shift. Like, you don't care anymore what people think of you. And also, I just came from seeing one of my best friends die and sitting with her body for four days. As, you know, she was an organ donor, and she had a massive aneurysm. And, you know, her partner just heroically did cpr. And then the paramedics came and kept her pulse going and got her to the hospital and they stabilized her despite the fact that she had no brain activity. You cannot be an organ donor unless you die on a respirator in the hospital. Like, it's very, very specific. And then you have to wait for all the tests. Like, there are barrages of tests that happened to make sure that you're healthy and that your organs can really save someone else's life and not be rejected. And so we spent days just with her and talking about her life and what a selfless person she was. And, you know, we joked a lot about how she was going to work even in death. She was all about service. And then the day came, right on the way to the or what they do is they do a thing called an honor walk. And we went down what seemed like miles of corridors behind her hospital bed, behind the doctors. And the corridors were lined with doctors and nurses and hospital staff honoring her. And it seemed like one of those movies where you see the people going down the corridor in slow motion to get into the spaceship to go to the moon or whatever, and everyone's saluting them, and it seems so important. And I think I actually saw that in real life. And I just thought all those things that I worry about and the injustices, we are so right to fight for them. And I was there watching this incredible thing happen, and these beautiful people from all over the world, many of the doctors are immigrants. And, you know, it was a mix of people of all colors from all over the world and all different cultures. And I felt so utterly galvanized against the fear and so utterly galvanized in that joy is the way forward. Loud ass, exuberant joy.

[Hanna Rosen]

I mean, one of the things I took most from your book is how you write about forgiveness. It's related to this. I mean, you definitely acknowledge the beauty of forgiveness, but then you say this other thing, and you could read this in a lot of different ways, which is the trust, your contempt paragraph. Do you remember that you don't have the book in front of you, right?

[Nico Case]

I don't, but I do talk about this occasionally.

[Hanna Rosen]

Yeah. Dissect it if you can. If something doesn't stir anything but contempt in you, then there's a reason. Don't canonize your contempt, but don't ignore it. This is the part that I love. It's so good. Sometimes bad things are just senseless brutality that finds you. You do not deserve or ask for these things. They're not always teaching you a lesson. Where would you say you are kind of after, you know, you have a lifetime of songs. You have this memoir. Sounds like you have friends on this path. Is it different for different people? Like forgiving members of your family, people who have hurt you in the past?

[Nico Case]

Oh, yeah. I mean, relationships with people are all very different and some are very complicated and some are not.

[Hanna Rosen]

So you would say you're at different places with different people.

[Nico Case]

Oh, yeah.

[Hanna Rosen]

What about your dad? I was curious about him because he plays a kind of shadow role in the book. Not quite. With the extravagant cruelty of your mother, maybe neglectful, maybe is the right way to put that.

[Nico Case]

I have a lot of compassion for my dad and a lot of sadness because I feel like his development was arrested completely. And, you know, he had to be an adult man and, you know, head of the family and all these things. And he was just a kid inside.

[Hanna Rosen]

Yeah.

[Nico Case]

And he didn't know how to handle it. You know, he maintained it with drugs and drinking for a long time, but then it catches up with you. And the kind of pain from that, I. He didn't use what happened to him to manipulate anyone. Like his forward path was genuine. He wasn't doing a great job. But he was also, you know, a 19 year old kid when he had me, so. And he didn't want me, but he ended up with me.

[Hanna Rosen]

Yeah. And ended up raising you.

[Nico Case]

Not really.

[Hanna Rosen]

Right. Ended up housing you under the same roof as him?

[Nico Case]

Sometimes, yeah.

[Hanna Rosen]

Sometimes, yeah. There was that moment when you guys reconnect over a car. Like you speak car, talk with each other, which is very familiar to me. I come from a family of mechanics and car people, and so I found that very peaceful. It was like a tiny second of peace in a very rocky journey.

[Nico Case]

Yeah, it was nice because when I was a little girl, I would have loved to have had him show me how to do things. Cause he was always fixing the car, you know, or the truck or whatever. And it would have been nice to have been included. It would have been. I mean, When I was a kid, I thought he wanted a boy, and I thought he was really disappointed, but he just didn't want any kid.

[Hanna Rosen]

You know, I listened to, like, I've just been nonstop listening to your music to prepare to talk and sort of tuning into the different moods of different albums. And I wonder from you, what's the song you wrote when you were happiest or even when you listen to it now? It makes you happy. Like, it just makes you feel good.

[Nico Case]

Probably. Hold on, hold on. It's melancholy, but it feels very much like I am in charge of myself and I make good decisions in it.

[Hanna Rosen]

So it's like a song that makes you feel like all of this pain and trauma, like you can handle it partially.

[Nico Case]

It's a moment of actually seeing yourself clearly. It doesn't mean the moment's gonna last. I mean, I think I also partly feel that way because I wrote it with the Sadies and, you know, I have such a loving relationship with them, and, you know, it's always made me feel good to play it. And, you know, my dear friend Dallas Good passed away a couple years ago way too young, and so now it takes on a new sort of heaviness, but it's like a heaviness that feels good to carry somehow. Let it go coast like me Goods hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.

[Hanna Rosen]

Thank you again to my guest, Nico Case. This episode of Radio Atlantic was produced by Janae west, edited by Claudine Baid, Rob Smirciak engineered, and Genevieve Finn fact checked. Claudina Baid is the executive producer of Atlantic Audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor. I'm Hanna Rosen. Thank you for listening.