C (3:40)

Well, I think that has a lot more to do with how the White House and President Trump responds. Look, I think there's a little downturn here, but I don't think anybody in America thinks this downturn was because Alex was murdered or Renee was murdered or the chaos that's on the streets here. I think it's because there was bad politics for him. And I've talked to the White House, talked to the President, talked Tom Holman, talked to all kinds of people over the last few days. The interesting thing was the only thing they never talked about, they never mentioned Alec's name, they never mentioned Renee's name. They never asked how the families were. I've been talking to him. They didn't really even asked me how Minnesotans were doing in this. They said, what can you do to help us? What can you do to cooperate more? Most of that was misinformation. So, look, you got to be hopeful. I've got to figure out how to deal with this. This is a very transactional White House. That's probably the understatement of the world. I go from being called a communist and the person who started this to we're on the same wavelength to fix this. We're on the same wavelength. We want this to end. But I don't know if the White House end state looks the same as mine because my end state is you need to get these people out of here. You need to acquit the assault on this state. And look, you're seeing it in the streets. It's a physical assault, it's an armed force. That's assault. It's killing my constituents, my citizens. But there is an all out attack on all of state government, all the things that make Minnesota great.

D (4:56)

Did you see what Pete Hegseth wrote on Twitter where he said ice is greater than Minnesota or ice, you know, above Minnesota. I'm wondering what your reaction to that kind of message is.

C (5:07)

He's a Minnesotan. For your listeners on this, not that I would talk about that often, but it's despicable. It is Absolutely despicable. Nothing on there, again, about the families, nothing about what's going. And this untrained force that anybody, to the casual observer knows, these folks don't know what they're doing. The great example is they had control of the Whipple Building, the federal building. That's the place where they staged because they're not going to use state property. And every day it was a confrontation. They would come out of there all geared up like they're in Afghanistan. They would charge people, retired teachers, nurses, students, people who were out there expressing their First Amendment rights. They would throw gas at them. They would yell at them, they would heckle. They would do all that well to try and ease this tension. We took that over we being the state. And I sent National Guard folks I served alongside for the years I was in. And my first directive to them was, as I said, when you get up there, I said, you deliver donuts, you deliver hot chocolate, you deliver coffee, and you learn the names of those people who are there because they're human beings. They're your neighbors. And my Guard troops are there. No masks on, names on there, delivering that. And now the protesters are asking if they can deliver food to the National Guard who are away from their family. That's how you do policing. Now, look, if those protesters do something that crosses the line, if they throw something or if they would cross that line from nonviolence, we will arrest them because we're rule of law. But rule of law means we respect their right to protest. So there's a resiliency here, but there's just deep frustration. And I keep hearing from the White House that we need to cooperate. I don't know what you want me to say about cooperating with a force who clearly was doing everything wrong. And then before Alex's body was cold, they were sullying his name, they were saying lies, they were making outrageous comments. And there were some news media outlets that were following along on that. This has got to end. This has got to end.

D (7:00)

So the president didn't ask about Alex or his family. Can you just say a little bit more about what he did say? And is there anything about the conversation that surprised you? This is, if I understand it correctly, only the second time you've spoken. The first being in 2020.

C (7:14)

I think I've spoken to him a couple times. I've been to the White House. I spoke to him during COVID and I spoke to him in 2020. You know, like I said, he's been saying all kinds of horrible things about Me and my, you know, people of Minnesota and, you know, making it clear. I mean, the one thing is he at least tells what his real issue is. He's lost here three times, and he thinks the elections, and so he has the ags for election rolls. Look, he said, tim, this is very bad. I said, yes, it's very bad. He goes, I just don't understand you Minnesotans. This worked fine, and New Orleans worked fine in Louisville. I said, you didn't kill anybody in Louisville or New York and you got thousands of people here, Mr. President. Well, if you just cooperate. We've already taken 14,000 people. And I had to tell him, I said, you have not taken 14,000 people. That's factually inaccurate. But I said, we want you to get out of here. We want to do the things. And I said, I follow federal law. My prisons. If there's a detainer, we give them over to you. So don't, you know, say that. And he said, well, I think we can work together. And I said, well, to work together, you need to do two things. You need to get these guys out of here, and you need to make sure that we get to be able part of these investigations, and if charges need to be brought, we need to do it.

D (8:18)

And what do you say about that?

C (8:19)

He said, I'll look into him. And then last night, I think he said that he would personally be in charge of the investigations, which should horrify every American because of violation of that separation, that he is now running the Department of Justice. And I would just say that, you know, I appreciate your offer, Mr. President, but the last thing we want is for you to supervise the investigations into these two murders. And he said we would work together. And he said, I'll send Tom Holman out. And I will say this, that Tom Holman landed on the ground, gave me a call right away. We met yesterday. Right away in the morning, we came up with a plan. I had my public safety folks in there, all professional law enforcement, and we're going to get back together. He's meeting with them, some of them today, them being corrections, bca, State Patrol. And then tomorrow, I'm going to expect that he's able to tell me how many of these forces are gone and what the next step is. It was more professional because Greg Bevino never called me. Kristi Noem never called me. They never called any of our people. So at least Tom Holman understood. Look, this is a mess. This is wrong. Now, what he thinks is wrong, I've yet to be seen But I thought it's important that we created a space here, an opportunity, a window of opportunity. And in my opinion, that was about 48 to 72 hours. That if we don't see a massive change here, I have no choice but to go back and tell my folks that you're not doing it. And look, Minnesotans are out there saying, well, what are you going to do if they don't leave? Well, that's our next step to figure.

D (9:46)

Out what are you going to do if they don't leave and if the situation doesn't improve, we're going to continue.

C (9:51)

To go to the courts, they're going to continue to get news that shows they are more unpopular on immigration than any president in the last 50 years. And this was supposedly that. And I would remind them we had a special election here yesterday in Minnesota. The results of that race was 95 to 5. The democrat won. It's a pretty blue district, but I think you see what's happening here.

A (10:14)

Was there any point where Walz felt like he could have done anything differently to de escalate or tone things down or even prevent what happened? Because he came in, you know, somewhat hot, I would say. In his interview with you, I think.

D (10:27)

He'S been pretty adamant that state and local governments have operated carefully and competently here. And he was firm in his position that when it comes to immigration enforcement, they'll comply with federal law, but they're not going to go out of their way to take these steps to assist Trump's immigration enforcement operations.

C (10:51)

I don't sure I can do much more. I'm not going to send my police in to search preschools. I'm not going to have them walk down the street and ask brown people for their papers. I'm not going to do that because that's not my job. And I don't think it's constitutional if they want to do their job and they've all operated for decades since they've been formed in Minnesota. And if you want to do it by due process, with humanity, with decency and by the law, we've always worked with you. So I don't know what more they want. I'm not going to join you in battle gear with my people on the streets. I'm not going to grab five year olds out of daycares. I'm just simply not going to do that. And I'm not going to not hold you accountable when you do this. I mean, can we all just ground ourselves again that after the first murder, the vice president of The United States said you have absolute immunity. I don't know if I'm Yale. I'm embarrassed you gave a law degree for that. I don't have one. And I know that's not true. But look at what he said. And I'm telling you, the attitude and the aggressiveness and the interactions of this countless things. Reporters have been there, that these guys joking like it's a video game and things like that. The disruption and the moral harm that they have done to our state is unimaginable. And I would just say if you're watching this from the outside and you see some of this, it's worse than you think. It's deeper than you think. And that assault I said on. I think they hate us cause we have low childhood poverty rates. I think they hate us because we have high homeownership rates. I think they hate us because we have a progressive taxation system, meaning if you're rich, you're gonna pay more. I think they hate this cause this is a state that works. And that assault will come to your state. Soon.

A (12:31)

After the break, we hear Governor Walz's reaction to the news that federal agents involved in the Alex Preddy shooting have been placed on leave. And if he thinks we're in a Fort Sumter moment.

B (12:51)

I'm Ann Applebaum. Over the past year, as I watched Donald Trump demand unprecedented new powers, I wondered, don't he and his team fear that these same powers could one day be used by a different administration and a different president to achieve very different goals? Well, maybe they are afraid, and maybe that's why they're using their new tools to change our institutions, even to alter the playing field in advance of midterm elections later this year to make sure their opponents can't win. Ultimately, destroying trust is the. The currency of autocrats.

C (13:28)

We could win, but we are very, very, very likely to lose if we keep treating this as business as usual.

B (13:38)

Reporting on the sweeping changes unfolding in our country and preparing you to think about what might happen next. The new season of autocracy in America.

A (13:55)

We've all been reading and hearing a lot about Minneapolis. Watching the videos, did he address at all the trauma to the state, like how it felt to be there?

D (14:04)

Oh, boy. I mean, he just was described this as utterly dire.

C (14:11)

We've got students not in school. We've got students who are afraid. We have people now. And I just have to say it. I have.

D (14:17)

You know, one of the kind of amazing moments to me was when he talked about suburban vehicles, these SUVs his own residents, his own constituents mistook that for ICE vehicles and basically fled from him.

C (14:30)

I've watched it. I've watched people run. I've watched people run when it's dry. And you think about the psychology of the stress. That is, you see vehicles around here that look like this that say we're not ice. I'm a teacher or whatever. I asked my team, I said maybe we need to say, you know, security perspective. I think most Minnesotans wouldn't run or one finger salute me. But it's just you can feel the fear.

D (14:56)

Well, what's the logical endpoint of this, of this kind of vendetta and also of this kind of open hostility against blue states, blue communities? I mean, do you worry about a kind of civil war scenario in this country?

C (15:08)

Well, I don't want to alarm people, but I mean the people who think that, I mean, you know, Governor Walz should call out the National Guard and arrest ICE guns pointed American at Americans on this is certainly not where we want to go. I think what you're seeing is the power far beyond the bullet in this is the people, the people who are out there. The way this ends is is quite honestly, if they're not able to and I think Pam Bondi played the hand interfering with our election systems, they will be wiped out and this White House will spend the next two years in court with people facing potentially prosecution and they will not be able to do their agenda. But I hear Americans on this is is what makes you think we can get to November. I'll go back to my analogy on this. Winter's long but we're prepared for it. If it takes being in the streets till November, we'll be there. If it takes fighting them in court till November, we'll be there. And I said just for their thing if they want to think about this. Do you not think Minnesota is always first or second in voter turnout? Do you not think that tens of thousands of people who stood out in 40 below zero are not going to show up in a heated voting booth to vote against this? If you're a Republican, you're going to lose. You're going to lose here and that is going to have repercussions. And look, I'm not going to people can make peace with their own morality on this, but at some point in time these people are thinking about that and you're seeing it across there. I think there's some that actually have conscience. I think Tom Massey, I served with actually does. I think Thom Tillis, who I Served with and served on committees with. I think these folks truly do have it. I think they found their spine. I think it's spreading like wildfire. And what I do know is if that catches a little more fire, you're going to see the most impotent, ineffective presidency you've ever seen because it's shut down. They can shut it down. They keep asking what are the Democrats going to do. We need to do more. We need to do everything. Republicans can end this.

D (17:02)

Just you one more question on the National Guard. And you said people want you to order the guard to arrest the agents. Have you thought about a scenario, a kind of worst case scenario in which there's a clash between these different parts.

C (17:15)

We work at everything to avoid that. And I think following the law and it's one thing that we've always done. I will follow the law to a tee. I got spent eight hours in front of Congress talking about our state. We're not a sanctuary state now. Do counties have the ability to make their own? Sure they do. And that's always been Minnesota law. They try to make the case that we're not helping, we're not doing this. We have, we follow the law all the way. But I said we get to this point is what I told them. At what point are we going to have to stand up and push back more? You killed our people. You closed the crime scene and you won't tell us who they are. Does it strike you as strange that I've had two of my citizens killed in one? They're angry. They being DHS and the president are angry that it feels like they got doxed with Ross's name who killed was part of the shooting of Renee. But I don't know who did this. I don't know if these guys are on the streets right now here in Minneapolis.

D (18:09)

So there's been reporting they were placed on administrative leave. You still don't know the names of these officers?

C (18:15)

No, no. And I gotta be honest with you to be generous in this, I'll do my Ronald Reagan trust but verify. I can't verify this. So I don't trust them. I don't trust them. They're on administrative leave. And at this point in time I told Tom, I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt but unless I see a reduction in these folks on the streets, I'm going to have to say that to my folks. So look, I think we all want to avoid that but I think the reality has sunk in this week. If you thought you could Pass this by. And you thought there was nothing there. I mean, is this a Fort Sumter? John Brown, where are we at on this? And we're doing everything right. And I have said it time and time again, the way you win this is through nonviolence, that you cannot do violence. And I know my constituents are mad at me for saying that. They're shooting us, they're killing us, they're beating us, they're taking our children. But you see what's happening now. For all that power and all that cruelty, they are retreating massively. Now, I believe they'll only retreat far enough to get to the next day or the next news cycle. But again, they underestimated this state and I think they're underestimating the American people. I'm still baffled. If you were going to pick two states to mess with, Maine and Minnesota, especially in the middle of winter, not smart.

D (19:27)

You're still under investigation, is that right?

C (19:29)

As far as I know.

D (19:30)

Did that come up at all, the conversation with the president?

C (19:33)

I will not bring it up. The only thing I asked him on the investigations was I told both the president and Tom Holman they needed to immediately drop the investigation into Renee Good's wife. And as a show of goodwill to us, I expected that to be done today. I don't know if it has been yet, but I will not bring up any of the others. But that one I feel very strongly about.

D (19:54)

What did the president say about that?

C (19:56)

I don't think he replied anything on that. But Tom Holman said he would call Cash Patel and check with people. He told me that.

D (20:03)

Is there anything else about the president's tone or the dynamic that surprised you or stuck out to you from Monday.

C (20:11)

Other than he was conciliatory towards me, which I know he despises me with a burning passion that I. I don't understand. I don't really. I feel like I'm a pretty nice guy. I don't know. But he was very cordial, which I've learned enough about this to read him that he needed something from me badly. So, you know, change that. We'll see.

D (20:34)

Do you think that there's a chance that this might change the immigration debate and do you think that would short term change, or do you think a real transformation in the way the country and the Congress handle this really vexed issue?

C (20:48)

I'd like to think that. I thought we were getting close and I've been, whether in Congress and as a governor, when we've been close to this, I really do believe that the Biden administration had a good one on that, and I think it's pretty clear they killed that because they wanted it to be an election issue. And it was. It was a powerful election issue, and we didn't have enough to push back in at the election in 2024. But, I mean, that's. If you really want to fix this. And that's what I keep saying is, you know, it's this straw man argument that, well, you're not cooperating with us. You don't care if there's, you know, criminal, illegal, you know, their language, criminal, undocumented. Of course I care about that. But I also care deeply and understand that someone who's willing to carry their children across the Darien Gap, risk life and limb to come here and clean our homes and get their children into school and put little bunny ears on them in a Spider man backpack. I'm going to go ahead and stand with my. And figure out a way they can stay.

A (21:43)

There were points when he was talking to you where it seemed like it was surreal, the experience that he just went through. Like Atwood novel kind of surreal.

D (21:54)

I think there's something surreal about this whole moment. And some of our colleagues have chronicled this really well. But just before we went in for the interview, I was on the phone with. With a pastor and a mother of four children who is describing her own work and trying to document ICE and kind of interrupt these operations. And she was saying, like, I'm driving my child to school and I'm getting these messages about ICE operations in my community. And I'm thinking, you know, should I go and do this? But, you know, no, I don't want to get killed and have my son be motherless. So these monumental decisions that are being made by just ordinary people who are. Who are not familiar with these kind of stakes, I think is there is something surreal about the whole experience.

C (22:46)

This is nuts. It is absolute insanity. And I don't know when it's written afterwards. I hate to make the comparisons of this, but no one's ever seen this.

D (22:56)

Yeah, And I worry about this Fort Sumter. It's a profound comparison, but, well, that.

C (23:02)

The discipline of the people on the streets here, because, look, everybody's armed. This is America and this is Minnesota, myself included.

D (23:12)

He brought up these moments. He brought up these analogies, including John Brown, as a way of suggesting that people in Minnesota were making different decisions. They were not resorting to that kind of violence. So that's what I took him to be saying. But I also took him to be saying that we don't know how these moments are going to unfold and the kind of dire consequences they might have. So we need to be careful, especially in a hair trigger environment and in an environment where we just frankly are seeing things that are unprecedented, that we don't know the kind of violence or damage could be done. So there's certainly a risk of hyperbole, but I think that there is also a risk of understatement and not fully coming to grips with the possible consequences of what we're seeing.

A (24:10)

Well, Isaac, thank you so much for doing this interview and for joining us today.

D (24:15)

Thank you so much.

A (24:18)

This episode of Radio Atlantic was produced by Janee west with reporting from Jocelyn Frank. It was edited by Kevin Townsend. Rob Smirciak engineered and composed original music. Claudina Baid is the executive producer of audio at the Atlantic, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor. Listeners, if you enjoy the show, you can support our work and the work of all Atlantic journalists when you subscribe to the Atlantic@theatlantic.com listener I'm Hanna Rosen. Thank you for listening.

B (24:57)

I'm Ann Applebaum. Over the past year, as I watched Donald Trump demand unprecedented new powers, I wondered, don't he and his team fear that these same powers could one day be used by a different administration and a different president to achieve very different goals? Well, maybe they are afraid, and maybe that's why they're using their new tools to change our institutions, even to alter the playing field in advance of midterm elections later this year to make sure their opponents can't win. Ultimately, destroying trust is the currency of autocrats.

C (25:34)

We could win, but we are very, very, very likely to lose if we keep treating this as business as usual.

B (25:43)

Reporting on the sweeping changes unfolding in our country and preparing you to think about what might happen next. The new season of Autocracy in America, available now.