Radio Atlantic: "Weaponizing the Justice Department"

Date: October 2, 2025
Host: Hanna Rosin
Guests: Quinta Jurecic (The Atlantic), Benjamin Wittes (Lawfare)

Episode Overview

This episode of Radio Atlantic dives into the unprecedented use of the U.S. Justice Department as a tool for punishing presidential enemies, focusing on the indictment of former FBI Director James Comey under President Trump’s administration. With guests Quinta Jurecic and Benjamin Wittes—both veteran legal analysts—the discussion unpacks the immediate news, the political and constitutional context, historical echoes, and the possible future of American legal norms.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Comey Indictment: Political Grievance as Prosecution?

• Background ([00:54]–[03:09]):

  • Donald Trump’s Justice Department, led by Attorney General Pam Bondi, indicted former FBI Director James Comey, an unprecedented move widely seen as retaliation.
  • Quote, James Comey: "My heart is broken for the Department of Justice, but I have great confidence in the federal judicial system, and I’m innocent, so let’s have a trial." ([01:49])

• Expert Analysis

  • Benjamin Wittes ([03:52]): Outlines three reasons why this case is alarming:
    1. Motivated by Trump’s personal vendetta.
    2. An overtly political use of the Justice Department.
    3. Lack of legal merit for the case itself.
  • Quote, Wittes: "You have a case that is of extremely dubious merit being pursued for a political reason against somebody that the president just personally hates. And that’s a big watershed moment." ([05:48])

2. The Integrity of Federal Processes

• Difficulty of Indictment ([06:39]–[08:20]):

  • Quinta Jurecic describes the challenges prosecutors faced in even getting the indictment:
    • The previous U.S. Attorney resigned in protest.
    • Trump installed Lindsey Halligan, an unexperienced outsider, who managed to secure two of three grand jury counts for an extremely vague indictment.
    • Quote, Jurecic: "It is really very difficult to say more until we get more out of the Justice Department." ([07:56])

• Grand Jury & Institutional Resilience ([08:49]–[14:50]):

  • The system is not yet a “kangaroo court,” with courts and grand juries displaying real pushback.
  • Wittes: "There is a quality of a kangaroo executive branch here…this woman, Lindsey Halligan, was willing to bring this case despite being warned about the deficiencies of it..." ([09:39])
  • Both guests highlight the resurgence of long-neglected institutional safeguards.
    • Quote, Jurecic: "When a grand jury decides that it wants to take its role seriously...those can be very real checks." ([11:47])
  • Wittes: On protections like the grand jury and Eighth Amendment—"They've faded away because we went through this period where we were, you know, civilized enough not to ask it to do things...now we’ve decided we are not. And so all of a sudden, the institution has a certain life again." ([13:25])

3. Attorney General Loyalty and Departmental Culture

• Finding an AG Who Won’t Say No ([14:50]–[17:41]):

  • Discussion of Pam Bondi’s appointment—valued for her compliance unlike previous AGs who drew lines (Sessions, Barr).
  • Bondi reportedly had misgivings about the Comey prosecution; suggests even loyalists recognize legal deficiencies.
    • Quote, Jurecic: "...there is an awareness, even on the part of the sort of the real apparatchiks...that this is just a loser." ([17:35])

• Culture under Siege ([17:41]–[20:32]):

  • The DOJ remains, as of early 2025, mostly staffed by career professionals upholding traditional values, though there’s an exodus of experienced talent.
  • Incompetence fills the vacuum as loyalists lack prosecutorial experience.
    • Quote, Wittes: "One measure of how many Lindsey Halligans there are is how much support she has gotten...virtually none." ([20:01])

4. Weaponization Scenarios: Chilling Political Opposition

• Future Moves and the Risk to Civil Society ([20:32]–[29:26]):

  • Even unsuccessful prosecutions can inflict enormous personal and financial harm, especially on less prominent or resourced targets than Comey.
    • Quote, Jurecic: "To the extent that there are other Trump enemies who fit in that category, I think this is menacing. But...those folks will...be fine. What I would be more worried about is if the department starts going after people who are less well positioned..." ([21:47])
  • Trump administration targeting groups like Antifa and funders like the Soros Foundation/Open Society, mostly as a chilling tactic against activism and civic engagement.
    • Quote, Wittes: "Are they going to paralyze the Soros Foundation...with responding to investigations and chill a lot of other foundations? Yes." ([29:26])

• Practical Consequences:

  • Chilling effect on civil society, especially foundations, NGOs, and legal advocates.
  • Rampant investigations disrupt lives—even absent convictions.

5. What Happened to Watergate-Era Reforms?

• Norms v. Laws ([31:24]–[35:09]):
  • Post-Watergate reforms were mostly norms and guidelines, easily subverted by a president with party support in Congress.
    • Quote, Jurecic: "What we have discovered is that it is actually pretty easy for a determined president to undercut a lot of those norms..." ([32:48])
  • The Attorney General is still appointed—and fired—at will by the President; true independence exists "entirely as a normative idea."
    • Quote, Wittes: "...the idea that the Attorney General should be independent for investigative purposes is entirely a normative idea. And then Donald Trump called bullshit on it." ([34:23])

6. Historic Echoes and Counterforces

• Lessons from the Red Scare & McCarthy Era ([35:09]–[38:06]):
  • Jurecic offers "qualified yes" when asked if there are effective counterforces today—civil society is notably stronger and more organized than in previous periods of repression.
    • Quote, Jurecic: "What is different is that there is a civil society that is rejecting it. It, even during McCarthyism, you did not see this level of sustained pushback." ([36:06])
  • Wittes suggests anything short of major congressional action will be insufficient to restore checks and balances.
    • Quote, Wittes: "The great source of power that is untapped...lies in the appropriations power and the oversight powers of Congress. And if Congress is not going to pick that sword up, all other efforts are going to fail." ([37:09])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Comey’s Response:
  "My heart is broken for the Department of Justice, but I have great confidence in the federal judicial system and I’m innocent, so let’s have a trial." – James Comey ([01:49])

• On the Larger Watershed:
  "You have a case that is of extremely dubious merit being pursued for a political reason against somebody that the president just personally hates." – Benjamin Wittes ([05:48])

• On Grand Jury Protections Resurfacing:
  "Now we've decided we are not [civilized]...and so all of a sudden, the institution has a certain life again." – Benjamin Wittes ([13:25])

• On Institutional Norms:
  "The idea that the Attorney General should be independent for investigative purposes is entirely a normative idea. And then Donald Trump called bullshit on it..." – Benjamin Wittes ([34:23])

• On Civil Society’s Pushback:
  "What is different is that there is a civil society that is rejecting it...We actually have a much stronger civil society and a much greater culture of free expression and political dissent..." – Quinta Jurecic ([36:06])

Key Timestamps

• 00:54: Introduction of the Trump–Comey showdown & initial reactions
• 03:09: Pam Bondi’s statement on “everything is on the table”
• 06:39: Analysis of the difficulty and legitimacy of the Comey indictment
• 08:49: Comparisons to “kangaroo courts” and system resilience
• 14:50: Historical perspective on choosing loyal Attorneys General
• 21:07: The broader chilling effect of weaponized investigations
• 24:10: Mechanisms for targeting civil society and their limitations
• 31:24: Historical perspective: from the Red Scare to now—why reforms fell short
• 35:09: Discussion of counterforces and the role of Congress in safeguarding democracy

Tone, Language & Flow

• The discussion is somber but laced with dry wit—alive to historical irony, often self-aware of how quickly once-shocking breaches of norm become “the new normal.”
• Wittes and Jurecic balance measured legal analysis with pointed commentary.
• The dialogue underscores the fragility of norms and the need for vigilance and democratic engagement.

Summary Takeaways

• The Comey indictment is seen as a “watershed moment”—not just for its unprecedented nature, but for revealing what happens when political vendetta trumps legal process.
• Institutional checks—grand juries, professional standards, courts—still exert significant, if strained, influence.
• Both guests warn this weaponization could have potentially chilling effects on less privileged targets and American civil society at large.
• The failures of post-Watergate reforms to establish true institutional independence enables current abuses; restoring safeguards will require both political will and possible structural change.
• Hope, though qualified, lies in the enduring strength and responsiveness of civil society—as well as, ultimately, the power of Congress to reassert independent oversight of the executive.