What RFK Jr. Doesn’t Understand About Autism

Summary

Radio Atlantic: What RFK Jr. Doesn’t Understand About Autism

Release Date: May 22, 2025 | Host: Hanna Rosen | Guest: Eric Garcia, Author of "We're Not Changing the Autism Conversation"

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Introduction

In this episode of Radio Atlantic, hosted by Hanna Rosen, the conversation centers on Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s controversial stance on autism. As the head of Health and Human Services, RFK Jr. recently declared an autism epidemic, attributing its rise to environmental toxins and vaccines—a claim met with significant backlash from the scientific community and the autism advocacy community alike. Hanna Rosen engages with Eric Garcia, an autistic writer and journalist for The Independent, to dissect RFK Jr.'s assertions and their implications for the autism community.

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RFK Jr.'s Position on Autism

The episode opens with Hanna Rosen highlighting RFK Jr.'s longstanding belief that vaccines, specifically mercury in vaccines, are linked to autism—a theory lacking credible scientific support. RFK Jr.'s recent press conference on April 16th emphasized what he terms an "autism epidemic," dismissing counterarguments from researchers as "epidemic denial" (01:07).

Eric Garcia criticizes RFK Jr.'s framing, stating:

“Saying that autism destroys children or destroys families is so corrosive. And it goes into the larger stereotype that people with disabilities are a burden.” (03:18)

Garcia underscores the detrimental effect of portraying autism as a catastrophe, which fuels stigma and misinformation.

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The Rise in Autism Diagnoses: Causes and Misconceptions

Hanna Rosen and Eric Garcia delve into the spike in autism diagnoses over the decades. They explain that the apparent increase is largely due to changes in diagnostic criteria and increased awareness rather than an actual rise in incidence.

Garcia describes the historical context:

“Autism didn't get a separate diagnosis in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders until 1980... In 2013, the American Psychiatric Association grouped all these diagnoses under Autism Spectrum Disorder with varying levels of support needs.” (06:16)

This broadening of the diagnostic spectrum accounts for the "hockey stick" graph of increasing autism rates, which often misleads the public into perceiving an epidemic.

Hanna Rosen adds:

“So it makes some kind of sense. And I think it really is important to pause here because that's what a layperson who knows nothing would pick up.” (07:04)

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Eric Garcia's Critique and Analysis

Garcia criticizes RFK Jr.'s approach, emphasizing that framing autism as an epidemic shifts the narrative from support and accommodation to one of crisis and blame. He argues that this perspective:

• Dehumanizes Autistic Individuals: Portraying autistic people as burdens undermines their humanity and contributions.

• Redirects Focus from Support to Fixation: Emphasizing prevention and fixing autism detracts from providing necessary services and accommodations.

Garcia states:

“Treating it as a crisis and treating it as something to be fixed or prevented is corrosive to a lot of families.” (15:55)

He further explains that RFK Jr.'s rhetoric places undue blame on parents and the autistic individuals themselves, rather than addressing systemic issues and support needs.

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The Impact on the Autism Community

The episode explores how RFK Jr.'s statements have deepened existing rifts within the autism community. Hanna Rosen references an op-ed by Emily May, a mother of a profoundly autistic child, which critiques RFK Jr.'s bleak portrayal of autism.

Eric Garcia responds by highlighting internal debates, especially around the concept of "profound autism." He discusses the contention over whether creating separate labels for high-support needs individuals adds to stigma or provides necessary recognition.

Garcia emphasizes the need for inclusion and representation:

“I know, I don't know exactly what it's like, but I've learned so much from your kids, and I've learned how similar we are...” (22:11)

He advocates for a perspective that sees autistic individuals as full human beings deserving support and acceptance, rather than problems to be fixed.

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Internal Debates within the Autism Community

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the tension between different factions within the autism advocacy community. The push for recognizing "profound autism" aims to address the unique needs of non-speaking autistic individuals, but some self-advocates fear this could exacerbate stigma.

Eric Garcia notes:

“Autistic people have to stop making phone calls. They are on the front lines this time to prevent the cuts to Medicaid...” (21:12)

He stresses the importance of ensuring that advocacy efforts are inclusive and that all autistic voices are heard, especially those who cannot speak for themselves.

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Conclusions

Hanna Rosen and Eric Garcia conclude by contrasting RFK Jr.'s approach with a more inclusive and supportive perspective on autism. While RFK Jr. seeks to identify and mitigate perceived environmental causes, Garcia advocates for:

• Acceptance and Accommodation: Emphasizing the need to support autistic individuals through services and societal acceptance.

• Inclusive Advocacy: Ensuring that all autistic voices, including non-speaking individuals, are represented and heard.

Garcia articulates a vision focused on enhancing the quality of life for autistic individuals rather than framing their existence as a societal burden.

“What do we do about it? How do we serve these people? How do we see them as full human beings who have needs and wants and concerns?” (23:20)

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Notable Quotes

• Eric Garcia:

  • “Saying that autism destroys children or destroys families is so corrosive...” (03:18)
  • “Treating it as a crisis and treating it as something to be fixed or prevented is corrosive to a lot of families.” (15:55)
  • “I want their stories told and I want them to be heard.” (22:44)
  • “What do we do about it? How do we serve these people? How do we see them as full human beings who have needs and wants and concerns?” (23:20)

• Hanna Rosen:

  • “There is a lot of confusion out there about autism, why it's increasing, if it's even increasing, and what even counts as autism.” (02:59)
  • “The scientific consensus and your life seem to show that a major reason autism is, quote, on the rise is because of improved awareness and access to health care.” (14:06)

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Radio Atlantic provides a nuanced exploration of the contentious discourse surrounding autism, particularly in light of RFK Jr.'s assertions. Through insightful dialogue with Eric Garcia, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the complexities within autism advocacy and the importance of framing autism in a way that promotes support, acceptance, and genuine understanding.

Transcript

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[Hanna Rosen]

Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Is very concerned about autism. He has been for a couple of decades, since he first became convinced that mercury and vaccines made children autistic. Which, by the way, there is no credible evidence supporting this theory. On April 16th now, as head of Health and Human Services, RFK gave a press conference and he described the tragedy of what he calls the autism epidemic. For years he's insisted there is an epidemic, even though there's a lot of debate among researchers about this, all of which he dismisses as, quote, epidemic denial, a term he repeated several times in that press conference.

[Eric Garcia]

There are many, many other studies that affirm this. And instead of listening to this canard of epidemic denial, all you have to do is start reading a little science, because the answer is very clear and this is catastrophic for our country.

[Hanna Rosen]

Catastrophic, he says, because a lot of families are suffering as they watch their kids struggle in life. And it's true, a lot of families are suffering. Hanna I'm Hanna Rosen. This is Radio Atlantic. There is a lot of confusion out there about autism, why it's increasing, if it's even increasing, and what even counts as autism. And I think it's fair to say that RFK's strong and public entry into this debate has not in any way helped to clear things up. So we're gonna talk to someone who writes about autism, also covers politics for the UK paper the Independent, and is himself autistic. Eric Garcia, author of We're Not Changing the Autism Conversation. Eric, welcome to the show.

[Eric Garcia]

Thank you.

[Hanna Rosen]

So, Eric, you covered that April 16 press conference that RFK held about autism. Was there anything in his statement that stuck out to you?

[Eric Garcia]

Yeah. You know, there was obviously the whole thing, which is that autism destroys families.

It's an individual tragedy as well. Autism destroys families. More importantly, it destroys our greatest resource, which is our children.

Saying that autism destroys children or destroys families is so corrosive. And it goes into the larger stereotype that people with disabilities are a burden.

These are kids who will never pay taxes, they'll never hold a job, they'll never play baseball, they'll never write a poem, they'll never go out on a date. Many of them will never use a toilet unassisted.

I hear him taking some of the most intimate and graphic details of autistic people's lives and using it as a pawn for spreading disinformation.

These are children who should not be. Who should not be suffering like this. These are kids who, many of them were fully functional and regressed because of some environmental exposure into autism when they're two years old. And we have to recognize we are doing this to our children.

And I see him also taking the real challenges that high support needs people and making their lives seem like a tragedy rather than lives that are whole and worthy on their own. This isn't to say that they don't face significant challenges, they absolutely do. But exploiting their experiences in such a public way in some ways almost bordered on pornography to me.

[Hanna Rosen]

I want to get into RFK's actual ideas about autism.

[Eric Garcia]

Sure.

[Hanna Rosen]

Let's start with the idea that there's an autism epidemic. This is something he's been saying for decades. It's a critical part of his argument. It's the assumption from which everything else flows. There is an epidemic. So we have to get to the root of it and do something about it. So I'm going to do something that's not that podcast friendly, which is look at what anybody listening to this podcast could do, which is Google the term increase in autism diagnoses. Increase in autism, and you'll see. Can you describe what you're looking at?

[Eric Garcia]

Yeah, it's known kind of like as the hockey stick. What you see is you see that over time there was an increase in diagnoses. So it says that something like 1 in 10,000 kids in the past had an autism diagnosis. And then over time, that number just increases and increases and increases and increases. And it makes it look like on a very surface level, with a very surface level understanding that this is an epidemic.

[Hanna Rosen]

Right. And I wanna pause here because I feel like this is very confusing to people. Anybody can Google these charts and pretty much any year you start in.

[Eric Garcia]

Yes.

[Hanna Rosen]

So there's a chart that shows California. You can start in the 40s and 50s, basically nobody has autism. And then it's around the year 1990.

[Eric Garcia]

Yes.

[Hanna Rosen]

When it starts to lift.

[Eric Garcia]

Correct.

[Hanna Rosen]

And then you get to 2020 and it like booms into the sky. Now you can do this about Northern Ireland, California, Sweden, Oman, China. Oman, China. I mean, basically everybody would look at these charts and hear RFK say there's an autism epidemic. And it makes some kind of sense. And I think it's really important to pause here because that's what a layperson who knows nothing would pick up.

[Eric Garcia]

It totally makes sense that on the surface it looks like there's this spike. But you have to remember, of course, autism didn't get a separate diagnosis in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of mental disorders until 1980. It didn't get one. Then you got what was then called Asperger syndrome, thanks to the research of Lorna Wing in the United kingdom. Then in 1994, which was the year that my parents started screening me for things, you got, I believe it was pdd nos, Pervasive Developmental Disorder. Not otherwise specified. But it was this gradual improvement and broadening of the spectrum. And then in 2013, what happens is the American Psychiatric association, which publishes the dsm, puts all of these diagnoses under one umbrella as Autism Spectrum Disorder. And there are levels. There's level one autism, which is people who can speak in full sentences, but might have difficulty with sensory processing or might have difficulty with social interaction. Then there's level two, where they might be able to speak in smaller sentences or smaller words. And then there's level three, which is where they need, I think, the classic around the clock care that, that we typically associated with autism, we still associate with autism, and we shouldn't erase those people. But I think that it's important to remember that the diagnostic criteria was changing at the time.

[Hanna Rosen]

Right. So all this broadening of the diagnostic criteria, all the stuff you're describing, that explains a lot of this sudden rise. What RFK is calling the epidemic.

[Eric Garcia]

Yes. You know, this was around the time that people with disabilities received more rights. The ADA was passed in 1990. And it's important to remember that even though autism wasn't really mentioned in the ada, it was mentioned specifically in the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act. And that just meant that you saw more. You saw an increase in the number of children being served who had what we now consider autism spectrum disorders. So it's kind of this strange marriage of science improving and government policy causing a windfall. So it was easy, I think, for people to look at those numbers and say epidemic.

[Hanna Rosen]

Right. And the obvious question is, why now? RFK seems pretty certain about what the cause is.

[Eric Garcia]

Within three weeks, and probably we're hoping in two weeks, we're gonna announce a series of new studies to identify precisely what the environmental toxins are that are causing it. This has not been done before, and we're gonna do it in a thorough and comprehensive way. And we're gonna get back with an answer to the American people very, very quickly.

[Hanna Rosen]

By the way, Eric, it's been like two or three weeks and that report never came out, at least not yet. But the important phrase to me in that is precisely what environmental toxins are causing it. Not if environmental toxins are causing it, but which ones.

[Eric Garcia]

Right.

[Hanna Rosen]

So what does he mean by that? He's basically concluded, despite this openness, he has to doing research, that the cause of autism is environmental toxins. What is he referring to?

[Eric Garcia]

This is something that's been talked about for a long time, which is that environment toxins have contributed, if not play a major role in the increase in autism rates. And then the other major culprit is, of course, vaccinations, and particularly the MMR vaccination, the measles mumps rubella vaccine. And that has been debunked multiple times. The guy who put out that study, Andrew Wakefield, had his medical license revoked in the United Kingdom. And the study that was put out in 1998 was retracted in 2010.

[Hanna Rosen]

Right. So, okay, so we have pinned down what RFK believes. This is an environmental toxin. Let's get to the root of it.

[Eric Garcia]

Correct.

[Hanna Rosen]

That's his belief, and he happens to be the secretary of the hhs, so. So his belief holds some weight, right?

[Eric Garcia]

Yes.

[Hanna Rosen]

Now let's shift from what he believes to. To what the scientific consensus and the world is saying versus what RFK is saying. When were you born?

[Eric Garcia]

I was born in 1990.

[Hanna Rosen]

1990. Okay. That's a critical year because it's just around the period pinpoints to when autism started to explode.

[Eric Garcia]

Yes.

[Hanna Rosen]

What is your experience as a child, growing child, of how people are talking about autism?

[Eric Garcia]

This is a really interesting. It's funny the way that my mom says it is that. So we were living in Wisconsin at the time and she read this ad in the paper for like free pre case readings. This is like in 1994, 94, 95, they couldn't pinpoint, but they said there was something, quote unquote, wrong. With me. Or there was something like I wasn't hitting the marks. But you have to remember, of course there's always a lag in scientific understanding when something is established officially versus when it enters our bloodstream, so to speak, or enter zeitgeist. But they were like, well, he's verbal, he can speak, so we don't know if that's autism and things like that. And then what happened was we moved to Sacramento and what just so happened, and according to my mom, is that, you know, she was trying to get services, things like that. They say he's fine, there's nothing wrong with him. It's weird. Like in Wisconsin they're like, he's something's quote, unquote wrong. And then in California there's quote unquote, there's nothing wrong with him. And then it just so happens that my dad's boss wife happened to be like the head of like special education for the entire region. So like that got me like an in. And then what happened is we were living in is that afterward we moved to San Antonio, Texas and there was this one doctor who I guess had been researching autism for a while. So. And then they were like, well, this is what it's called. This is Asperger's syndrome. And then like I started, and it's funny because, you know, when you hear this term, Asperger's syndrome, it's like you can imagine the kind of jokes that are made on the playground at the time. And you know, it was funny because my diagnostic journey kind of matched the science and the public understanding as it was coming.

[Hanna Rosen]

So the scientific consensus and Derek's life seem to show that a major reason autism is, quote, on the rise is because of improved awareness and access to health care. But within the autism community, there's a lot less consensus about what RFK is saying and what should be done next. That's after the break.

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[Hanna Rosen]

RFK is not the only person though who believes that this isn't just about diagnoses.

[Eric Garcia]

Correct.

[Hanna Rosen]

Right. So there are legitimate scientists who would say, oh, it's not just a matter of we're capturing more people, there is something going on.

[Eric Garcia]

Yeah.

[Hanna Rosen]

So I want to talk about that for a minute. Even RFK agrees that autism has a genetic component. Like studies of identical twins have shown that they are more likely to both be autistic.

[Eric Garcia]

Yeah.

[Hanna Rosen]

What other factors have people found have contributed to autism since the 1990s?

[Eric Garcia]

Yeah, there have been talks about how like, you know, parents having children older.

[Hanna Rosen]

Right. The age of fathers.

[Eric Garcia]

The age of fathers is one of the things there's talk about mutated sperm, you know, so there, so there, there definitely is some discussion, you know, and I should note that the United States spends so much money on researching autism and like a large chunk of that research of the projects we, the United States government and nonprofits fund are about biolog.

[Hanna Rosen]

So what in your mind is the problem with RFK calling it an epidemic?

[Eric Garcia]

The problem with RFK calling it an epidemic, in my opinion is that it treats it like it's a crisis. It treats it as if it's something to be fixed or something to be mitigated and something to be stopped. And when we already spend so much time researching the biology and researching, and I'm not necessarily even opposed to researching biology, I think it could be worthwhile. I think it could lead to scientific breakthroughs. It could help with finding ways to treat co occurring conditions like epilepsy. A lot of autistic people die, epileptic seizures. But like treating it as a crisis and treating it as something to be fixed or prevented is corrosive to a lot of families. It's corrosive to a lot of autistic people. It puts the blame back on parents and it focuses more on fixing this issue rather than accommodating and giving services to autistic people when the pie is so scarce. You know, this is the same administration that is trying to cut Medicaid.

[Hanna Rosen]

Right. So when you're standing and listening to RFK say things like this to you. The message is something about me needs to be fixed.

[Eric Garcia]

Yes. And something about a large amount of people needs to be fixed rather than these are people who are human beings who need services and who need support and who need acceptance in the world.

[Hanna Rosen]

I want to talk about how RFK statements have opened up and exposed certain rifts and inside the world of autism. Recently, a mother of an autistic child, Emily May, wrote an op ed in the New York Times which was called Kennedy Describe my daughter's reality. She writes, when RFK Jr. Said in a recent press briefing the same one we've been talking about, that autistic children will never pay taxes, never hold a job, never play baseball, many people in the autism community reacted angrily. Probably you did, Eric. And yet I was transported back to the psychiatrist's office and the bleak prognosis that my child might never speak again. I found myself nodding along as Mr. Kennedy spoke about the grim realities of profound autism. Can you explain what this divide is about between say, a community that you represent and this parents community of children who she describes as profoundly autistic?

[Eric Garcia]

Yeah, first off, I should say, and I want to be, I want to be as careful as I can with this. Sorry, I don't want to make too many people mad. It's important to remember that a lot of parents of high support needs autistic kids disagree with Emily and a lot of people agree with her. In fact, Emily and I were dming before that article came out. And the thing that I would say is that term profound autism, that is an ongoing debate that's going on right now because The Lancet in 2021, 2022 put out a commission arguing that there needed to be a separate label called profound autism for those kind of, as I mentioned, level three autistic people, or what we would call high support needs. And their argument is that the diagnosis of the spectrum is too broad and that creating the 2013 diagnosis of ASD erases the needs of some people of those high support needs people and folks like myself are occupying the conversation.

[Hanna Rosen]

Is that because you can speak for yourself, where is a non speaking child cannot necessarily speak for themselves?

[Eric Garcia]

Yeah, that's their argument.

[Hanna Rosen]

And so they feel like they've been made invisible.

[Eric Garcia]

Now they feel like they've been made invisible. And I think that they feel like the while we've been highlighting a lot of the accomplishments of people like myself that we're ignoring their needs. And the thing, and the ironic thing and so there's this idea that there's a need to create a separate labor profound autism. And a lot of autistic self advocates, including some non speaking autistic self advocates, argue that this would just add to stigma and that by labeling someone as profoundly autistic that would lower expectations. I would say that they would never be able to achieve all those things. And the thing that I would say is that a lot of times my overture, I'm not an activist, I'm a journalist, I'm a writer, I write about autism, but I don't advocate for a policy thing. But my overture and my olive ranch and my fig leaf is the people who are on the front lines advocating for your kids are those same speaking autistic advocates and those same self advocates. It's funny, when I was interviewing Julia Bascom, the former head of the autistic self advocacy network, she has in her office one of the signs that they made for pushing back against the repeal of Obamacare, saying please don't cut Medicaid so we can stop making. So autistic people have to stop making phone calls. They are on the front lines this time to prevent the cuts to Medicaid that Republicans want to do, that RFK's administration, the Trump administration wants to do and how Speaker Mike Johnson want to do and Republicans in the House want to do.

[Hanna Rosen]

I see. So you're saying you as a speaking autistic advocate or writer are not making a distinction between high needs, not high needs. You're just out there raising awareness for autism more broadly, whether it's for her kid, for yourself, for society, just to generally understand autism.

[Eric Garcia]

And I'll say this, I'll say this, this is just, this is what I would say. And I mean this from the bottom of my heart and forgive me for being, I don't know how emotional I could be in this thing.

[Hanna Rosen]

As much as you want is I.

[Eric Garcia]

Think meeting other autistic people, including high support needs non speaking autistic people, helped me learn about myself. You know, I think about how when non speaking autistic people for so long, they're diminished and people write them off as not worthy or not valid. I'm reminded when I was called a retard in elementary school. And so what I would say to them is that I don't know what it's like to be non speaking autistic, but I do know what it's like to be overwhelmed and overstimulated in a world that doesn't, you know, I didn't drive a car to get here because I can't drive. Some autistic people can drive, and God bless them, I just can't. It's overwhelming. Sensory overwhelm, sensory overload. And I guess what I just want to say is that, like, I know, I don't know exactly what it's like, but I've learned so much from your kids, and I've learned so much. And I've learned how similar we are, and I've learned how even though there are still very big differences, that they deserve to be treated valid. And that if I fought so hard to get my voice heard, my God, the reason why I try to interview nonce, it is so important in all of my books and all of my writing to include non speaking voices because, my God, I want their stories told and I want them to be heard.

[Hanna Rosen]

Mm. And so isn't that what RFK wants? Like, what's wrong with his approach to non speaking autistic kids? Like his bringing this to light? What's the difference between what you want and what he wants?

[Eric Garcia]

I think what I want is. I think the difference. Cause there, believe it or not, is some overlap, is that he sees this as a tragedy to be fixed. I see these as people who deserve everything possible. We're probably always going to have autism and we're always going to have autistic people with us. So what do we do about it? How do we serve these people? How do we see them as full human beings who have needs and wants and concerns? And how do we fix the gaps so that the actually impairing and disabling parts of autism are addressed and mitigated? And how do we help them to live good and happy lives?

[Hanna Rosen]

Well, Eric, I feel like that is a beautiful place to end. I really appreciate you coming and talking to me about this, Hannah.

[Eric Garcia]

I really appreciate you having me here. Thank you.

[Hanna Rosen]

This episode of Radio Atlantic was produced by Rosie Hughes and Janae West. It was edited by Claudina Baid. We had engineering support from Rob Smirciak. Fact checking by Yvonne Kim. Claudina Baid is the executive producer of Atlantic Audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor. Listeners, if you like what you hear on Radio Atlantic, you can support our work and the work of all Atlantic journalists when you subscribe to the [e-mail] listener I'm Hanna Rosen, and thank you for being a listener. Talk to you next.