The Gondolier

Summary

Radiolab – "The Gondolier" (June 26, 2026)

Episode Overview

This moving Radiolab episode revisits and updates the story of Alex Hay, a transgender man who, while seen by the world as the “first female gondolier” of Venice, was actually living a complex journey of identity and cultural resistance. Originally reported in 2017, the episode combines immersive storytelling, rich soundscapes, and new follow-ups with Alex in 2026, revealing both the personal costs and profound meaning of fighting to live authentically. The Radiolab team explores themes of gender, identity, societal narratives, and resilience.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

I. The Origin of the Story and Initial Misunderstandings

• Backstory: Reporters David Conrad and Kristen Clark became interested in Alex upon hearing the media narrative of the “first female gondolier” breaking a 900-year tradition in Venice (06:00–07:00).
• The early media and public view painted Alex as a feminist icon shattering a historic male stronghold, yet few stories actually featured Alex’s own words (05:55, David Conrad).
• Kristen and David reach out, and Alex responds with specific and intense demands, signaling an underlying story more complicated than just a tale of empowerment (07:00–07:18).

Notable Quote

“If you come do this story, you have to spend a week with me...I have a vision for things.”
— Alex Hay ([07:02])

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II. The “First Female Gondolier”—But Not the Whole Truth

• In person, Alex is enigmatic and sometimes combative with journalists, resisting the repeated framing of his experience as “historic” for women (10:17–11:18, 11:02, Alex Hay).
• Only through meeting Alex’s girlfriend—who used male pronouns in a photo series—do the reporters realize Alex is transgender and that his true narrative has been hidden beneath the global media story (15:52–16:16).

Notable Quotes

“What has it been like for 20 years to be inside of that story when you’re actually a man?”
— Gabby ([16:30])

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III. Alex’s Early Life: Searching for Belonging

• Alex recounts growing up in Germany, always feeling different, and knowing as early as three years old that he was a boy—despite others’ perceptions (22:03–22:25).
• Home was marked by alienation (23:28), but independence led him to Hamburg’s St. Pauli district, where he survived and eventually made his way into filmmaking and then to Venice (24:31–25:56).

Notable Quote

“I was praying for a penis every night.”
— Alex Hay ([22:25])

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IV. Venice: Acceptance, Betrayal, and Becoming a (Misunderstood) Trailblazer

• Drawn to Gondoliering: Alex is entranced by the craft, joins as an apprentice, and finds a brotherhood with the men—until a journalist, Consuelo Turin, insists on making his story public as a “female pioneer” (26:22–30:43).
• The resulting media storm—across Italy and soon globally—forces Alex into a public story in which he is misidentified as a feminist hero instead of a man struggling for acceptance on his own terms (31:01–31:12).
• Institutional obstacles: After failing the gondolier exam amid apparent nepotism and discrimination, Alex’s legal appeal is transformed (against his wishes) into a cause celebre for women’s rights (33:33–35:23).
• The law is invoked to allow Alex a re-test "with women judges," further cementing the media’s incorrect narrative (34:41–35:23).

Notable Quotes

“It was not my story. It’s her story.”
— Alex Hay ([35:16])

“The whole thing, you know, was like a little stone becoming like that huge, huge thing.”
— Alex Hay ([32:33])

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V. The Gender Battle, Outsider Identity, and Double Bind

• Alex is caught between angry gondoliers (some threatening violence), and feminists who see him as “one of us,” though he does not identify with that group (36:17–39:03).
• Women in Venice’s rowing community offer support, while Alex resists being placed in a feminist activist role; for him, gendered experiences are irreducibly complex (38:47–39:03).
• The public retesting—conducted under a media circus as “the woman challenging the establishment”—is a harrowing, humiliating ordeal (39:17–40:57).

Notable Quotes

“I felt like I’m in a ring...I wanted to do a good performance and I wasn’t able...One of the worst, worst days of my entire life.”
— Alex Hay ([39:48–40:57])

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VI. Owning (and Enduring) the World’s Narrative

• Unable to escape the “first female gondolier” label, Alex assimilates it commercially—naming his site, email, and branding accordingly (52:06–53:11).
• Internally, this creates a “cage”—a public narrative that is not his own, but necessary for his livelihood (53:32–54:05).

Notable Quote

“You are, like, in a cage. This is like a cage for you. You can’t get really out of this, you know?”
— Alex’s therapist ([53:32])

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VII. Personal Transformation and Coming Out

• Over years, Alex leads a “double life”—out to friends, public as the female gondolier (54:13–54:47).
• In 2017, reaching a breaking point and entering menopause, Alex starts testosterone and finally undergoes top surgery—choosing to live fully and publicly as himself (56:19–57:33).
• He updates his website with a heartfelt statement about his transition (“I am not changing who I am. I am becoming who I am.” – [58:15]).

Notable Quote

“After holding myself back for three decades, it's time for me to depart from my wrong body. I am not changing who I am. I am becoming who I am.”
— Alex Hay ([58:15])

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VIII. The Second Act: Loss, Hardship, and (Gradual) Renewal

Life Immediately Post-Transition (2017–2019)

• Alex finds a sense of comfort and even joy in the years following transition—both socially and at work (62:12–62:45).
• As his physical body aligns, Alex describes a “second puberty” and how every aspect of identity, even tastes, undergoes a shift (62:51–63:27).
• Some in the Venetian community accept or misunderstand; others respond with disrespect, curiosity, or hostility (64:00–64:38).

The Gondola Is Taken

• In 2019, the authorities confiscate Pegasus, Alex’s beloved gondola. The punitive act, motivated by transphobia, leaves Alex unable to work and effectively exiled from Venice (66:35–68:32).
• Facing social ostracism, threats, and the loss of both livelihood and home, Alex enters a long period of displacement, shame, and depression—eventually returning to Germany in desperation (67:56–68:32).

Notable Quotes

“If you are a musician, you do not take the instrument away. But it was not only the instrument they were taking away. They were taking away the music as well and the right to play on another instrument.”
— Alex Hay ([66:35])

“I couldn’t find housing and I couldn’t find a job. It was like I was stuck in the mud for six years... In the end, it was not the enemy, it was myself. I destroyed myself by not fighting back.”
— Alex Hay ([69:01–71:32])

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IX. Recovery & Refinding Himself

• Even as he felt lost, Alex describes the slow, painful process of recovery—fighting depression, starting to create again (a short film and a book), and gradually getting support and finding solace in the Berlin community (72:04–75:10).
• Berlin’s unexpected warmth and inclusion played a pivotal role in his healing (“Berlin really saved me.” – [76:15]).

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X. Looking Ahead: Acceptance, Wisdom, and Hope

• As of 2026, Alex is content in Berlin, but Venice remains a place of longing; returning as a gondolier is no longer possible—but his identity and spirit persist.
• Alex’s book, "The Gondolier," is released in the US, signaling a new chapter and a message of resilience and hope for the transgender community.

Notable Quotes

“I can only tell people, never give up. I really hope that the world is going to come together and that the change is coming and that we move away from this hate...”
— Alex Hay ([76:46])

“Because I became who I am, and I paid an extremely high price for it. I nearly lost myself in it. And I think that is something which I hope will not ever happen again to somebody else in my position.”
— Alex Hay ([77:41])

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Memorable Moments & Quotes (with Timestamps)

On Being Stereotyped:

“All the articles laid out the same basic story. Algerian woman from Germany… became the first ever female gondolier… But that was sort of it.”
— David Conrad ([05:55])

The Moment of Realization:

“It’s so strange. The photos…they emphasized every masculine quality…we used all of the male forms in Italian…but everybody [thought] it was a typo…”
— Gabby ([15:52])

On Gender and Belonging:

“When I’m with the boys, I feel comfortable…The same stupid jokes about women.”
— Alex Hay ([46:55–48:02])

On Public Narrative:

“It’s nothing to do with what I want. That’s a label, you know. I cannot change a label who has 20 years of history.”
— Alex Hay ([53:11])

On Recovery:

“There was this tiny low voice knocking, saying ‘Hey, you need to get the hell out of this situation…find a way to snap out of there.’ And I did.”
— Alex Hay ([71:37])

On Hope:

“Never give up…I really hope that the world is going to come together and that the change is coming and that we move away from this hate…” — Alex Hay ([76:46])

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Important Segments by Timestamp

| Segment Start | Segment End | Content Summary | | ----------- | ----------- | -------------- | | 02:07 | 07:02 | How the story came to Radiolab, initial framing, and discovery of Alex’s uniqueness. | | 11:02 | 16:30 | Early interviews, learning about Alex’s trans identity. | | 21:11 | 26:22 | Alex’s childhood, family dynamics, and move to Venice. | | 26:22 | 35:23 | Apprenticeship, discovery by the press, legal and gender battles. | | 39:17 | 40:57 | The public, emotionally devastating retest. | | 54:13 | 58:34 | Alex’s transition, coming out publicly, internal struggle. | | 61:45 | 77:41 | 2026 update: Life after transition, legal battles, exile from Venice, healing, and wisdom. |

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Conclusion

"The Gondolier" is a nuanced, profoundly human portrait of Alex Hay, whose journey traverses not just physical canals, but societal boundaries and boundaries of the self. Through setbacks, resilience, and ultimate self-acceptance, Alex’s story critiques how public narratives can obscure true identity, yet affirms that authenticity and hope can still win out—even if the cost is high.

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Resources & Final Note

• Alex’s memoir, The Gondolier, is available at Pegasus Publishers (78:07).
• Support for transgender individuals: Trans Lifeline (877-565-8860).
• A special thanks to Alex for his vulnerability and courage, and to all the Radiolab correspondents for weaving together the story’s past and present.

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Radiolab: Hosted by Lulu Miller & Latif Nasser
Executive Editor: Soren Wheeler
Episode reported by: Kristen Clark & David Conrad

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End of summary.

Transcript

[Lulu Miller]

Hey, friends. Lulu here. I have been working in public radio for over 20 years. I feel so lucky to get to do this job. And this is a moment unlike any other. Nearly a year ago, Congress eliminated our federal funding, and so many of you stepped up to support Radiolab at that time. Thank you. Thank you from the bottom of our hearts. Thank you. But the truth is, we just aren't out of the woods yet. There's no sign of federal funding coming back, and New York Public Radio, our home station, is currently facing an ongoing shortfall of nearly $3 million. And so I'm coming to you to ask for support. If you are one of those listeners who has never given, we see you, we make this for you, we don't want you to have to support it. But again, this is a moment that is really different. If you appreciate our weekly dollop of wonder, of stories that we hope make you see the world anew, that give you some dinner party fodder or just some quiet escape, please consider supporting us by joining the Lab. And in return, we will ship you a fan favorite T shirt with the design of a pro tool session on the front. You know, with little sound waves kind of layered on top. It is peak sound nerd, but the audio ain't peeking. Little sound joke for you there. Anyway, for real, I am so proud that Radiolab is a show on public radio. We are not beholden to any institution. We can report on anyone from Facebook to the government to, you know, the secret underwater sex lives of aquatic animals that they don't necessarily want us to know about. We go there. We are beholden to no one but you. So we're asking you, be the public in public radio. Join the Lab for the T shirt. The other perks like bonus content and sponsor free episodes or just do it to keep the show going. To join the Lab and see the T shirt and check everything out, just go to Radiolab.org join or or you just text the word lab to the number 83763 to make your donation. Thank you so much. And on with the show.

[Soren Wheeler]

This is Radiolab. I'm Soren Wheeler, the executive editor here at the show, and I want to play you an episode today that we first put out in 2017. And the reason is because I still think about this story all the time. It was both a real challenge and a joy to work on because it's the story of a person who had to face off against literally the entire world and against our most ingrained ways of seeing the world and each other. All just to be who they really are. That person is named Alex High. And in this episode, we meet Alex sort of in the middle of that struggle. And as you'll hear in the show, it doesn't end at the end of this story. So I got ahold of Alex to find out what happened next. So if you stick around for the end, you'll hear Alex telling me about a whole second act to this story, which honestly, I found very moving. But first, I'm just gonna play you the original piece, which is called the Gondolier.

[Kristen Clark]

Wait, you're listening.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay.

[Alex Hay]

All right.

[Kristen Clark]

Okay.

[Alex Hay]

All right.

[Soren Wheeler]

You're listening to Radiolab Radio Lab from wnyc.

[Alex Hay]

Rewind.

[Jad Abumrad]

Hey, I'm Jad Abumrad.

[Robert Krulwich]

I'm Robert Krulwich.

[Jad Abumrad]

This is Radiolab.

[Robert Krulwich]

Today we have the story of just how hard it can be to be who you actually are when it seems like the entire world is doing its best to make you who you actually aren't.

[David Conrad]

Well, I guess I could. I mean, this could be too many details, but the story starts for us

[Jad Abumrad]

with reporter David Conrad.

[David Conrad]

So for me, it was back in late 2014. I was living in Philadelphia as a grad student.

[Jad Abumrad]

And at the time, David was applying for jobs. And one of the jobs he was applying for was at a radio show that was doing a series about international women's issues.

[David Conrad]

And so I had this on my mind, and I was taking a bus to the university, and I just overheard somebody talking about their recent trip to Venice.

[Jad Abumrad]

And of course, the classic tourist thing to do when you go to Venice is to take a ride on the canal boats, the gondolas, you know, go down the canal, maybe someone sings you a famous song. It's very romantic. In any case, the person sitting on the bus next to David was telling

[David Conrad]

their friend that they had taken a gondola ride with this first ever woman gondolier in Venice.

[Alex Hay]

Yeah.

[Gabby]

And then we were like poking around and we realized, like, how, how did

[Robert Krulwich]

this become a we?

[Gabby]

Um, no.

[Robert Krulwich]

Who are you?

[Gabby]

I'm.

[Jad Abumrad]

I'm Kristen, Kristen Clark, also a journalist and radio producer.

[Alex Hay]

Uh huh.

[Jad Abumrad]

And she and David are partners and collaborators.

[Gabby]

I mean, and this is what was interesting is like, we realize like how big a deal it is to be a female gondolier. This is like a 900-year-old tradition.

[Robert Krulwich]

900 years?

[Gabby]

Yeah.

[David Conrad]

All men.

[Gabby]

Yeah, all men. And it's always past father, son, father, son, father, son, or like uncle, nephew down the line.

[Robert Krulwich]

So this is like a. This has been no ladies now. No ladies then no ladies Ever.

[David Conrad]

No ladies in 900 years.

[Soren Wheeler]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

Just think about that for a second. Almost 1000 years of all men, men, men, men, men, men. And then one day you get a woman.

[Robert Krulwich]

Right as a headline. Woman breaks through 900-year-old glass ceiling.

[David Conrad]

I thought, that sounds like a good pitch.

[Kristen Clark]

Are you kidding?

[Robert Krulwich]

It sounds like God kissed you in the lip.

[David Conrad]

Yeah, exactly. It sounded like the perfect empowerment story, I guess.

[Gabby]

Yeah. And so we're kind of just, like, googling it and, like, it's all over the media.

[David Conrad]

Seemed like every outlet from the Guardian to the New York Times to the Financial Times to the Cedar Rapids Gazette to newspapers, it made it all the

[Jad Abumrad]

way to Cedar Rapids.

[David Conrad]

Yeah. To newspapers in Germany and China and Australia. And all the articles laid out the same basic story. It was this Algerian woman from Germany named Alex Hay showed up in Venice 20 years ago, got around a gondoliers association that never wanted to see a woman become a gondolier, and eventually became the first ever female gondolier of Venice. The whole thing, of course, sparking this giant gender war. But that was sort of it. Pretty much the headline in a picture was the story. And many of the articles didn't actually have all that many quotes from Alex. And so for me, it sounded like a great, simple opportunity to go back and tell a deeper story.

[Gabby]

Yeah. Just like, who is this person? Why. Why would somebody be so hell bent on getting into this club that just so clearly does not want them?

[Alex Hay]

Yeah.

[Gabby]

So we. We emailed Alex.

[David Conrad]

Just, we're. We're interested in your story. We're wondering if you might be willing to spend a few days with us this summer. And I was hoping it would just be like, yes, I'm happy to meet with you for a couple hours. And that would have been great. But we got an email back right away that said, if you come do this story, you have to spend a week with me.

[Robert Krulwich]

A week?

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Gabby]

And then there are all these questions about, like, who we were as journalists, what our purpose was, and a bunch of demands. You have to stay in the city. You can't stay in, like, one of the suburbs in Margari, even though it's cheaper. Like, you have to be in the city. I want you to hear these sounds at this time. I have a vision for things.

[Robert Krulwich]

Did you have the sense that there was something a little odd going on?

[David Conrad]

Yeah. And, I mean, the message was definitely, I want to tell a different story story.

[Jad Abumrad]

Did you have any idea what that meant?

[David Conrad]

No idea, but we had that echo. I had that echoing in my head.

[Kristen Clark]

All right.

[Gabby]

Do you want to switch backpacks, since

[Alex Hay]

I gave you the.

[Gabby]

I gave you the heavy one.

[David Conrad]

So we flew to the Venice airport, took a bus to City Center.

[Gabby]

That was really fast.

[David Conrad]

We stepped off the bus, and you could smell the salt in the air from the Grand Canal. And it was kind of raining a little bit. It was around midnight.

[Gabby]

We're kind of, you know, getting our bearings, grabbing our bags, and we. We look up and across the parking lot.

[David Conrad]

There's Alex standing under a lamppost, just leaning against it with a cigarette smoke

[Gabby]

kind of curling up into the light of the street lamp.

[David Conrad]

Short hair, dark. It was slicked back.

[Robert Krulwich]

Do you think you were in a Fellini movie?

[David Conrad]

Honestly, I didn't know what to think. This person was legit under a lamp, smoking. How are you?

[Alex Hay]

Good, good. Excellent light. Trouble so quick.

[Gabby]

Up close, Alex looked taller than I expected. Strong build, kind of a face that was a little weathered, like someone who works outside all day on the water.

[Alex Hay]

Finishing quite late. So when you call it, just finish. Oh, perfect. How was your flight?

[David Conrad]

It was good. It was long. It was, you know, we flew to Moscow first, which is.

[Gabby]

And since it was late, we made a plan with Alex to meet up at 5:45pm the next day on the steps of La Finice Opera House.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay. Beautiful little opera house.

[Soren Wheeler]

Yeah.

[Alex Hay]

I was rushing out to find you, so I left all the mess in the gondola. You.

[Gabby]

So anyway, the plan was to go out on a gondola ride, which was

[David Conrad]

one of Alex's demands in that first email.

[Alex Hay]

Okay.

[David Conrad]

So we walk around the corner to where the gondola is parked, and, oh,

[Alex Hay]

my God,

[Gabby]

the boat is just, like, shining.

[Alex Hay]

So the gondola was made for three people.

[David Conrad]

Long, narrow, jet black.

[Alex Hay]

This was where the noble couple was sitting.

[Gabby]

Antique cushions, golden trim.

[Alex Hay]

And over there, there was a servant sitting.

[Gabby]

Alex had had it about 12 years.

[Alex Hay]

Was already quite an old boat when I got it.

[Gabby]

Yeah, I had a name.

[Alex Hay]

This is called Pegasus.

[Gabby]

Pegasus.

[David Conrad]

And you choose it?

[Alex Hay]

Yes.

[David Conrad]

Yes, of course.

[Alex Hay]

All right, so if you want to come in one step.

[Gabby]

So we climb into the boat.

[Alex Hay]

Perfect. Sit on a little angle there.

[Gabby]

And Alex stands at the back holding the oar. And we're down, sitting in the. In the lower seats, kind of just like pointing the microphone up. Alex, I know you were just telling us how annoying it is when people snap pictures. Is it okay if I take photographs every once in a while?

[Alex Hay]

No,

[Gabby]

You came here to study it first.

[Alex Hay]

No, that's not what I said.

[Gabby]

And it was pretty much immediately clear. You came Here, I mean, that it was not going to be an easy interview.

[Alex Hay]

You came here when you studied.

[Gabby]

I know, I know. But I was wondering.

[Alex Hay]

You need to do a lot of practice.

[David Conrad]

Yeah, we had a notebook full of questions and things that we had pulled from all these articles we'd read, and that pretty quickly became useless.

[Gabby]

What I was asking though, is you didn't come. And whenever I asked about being the first female gondolier, the first woman in 900 years to do this.

[Alex Hay]

Oh, it's an old star. What's that? You can really read that everywhere on the net. I mean, so you know, such an over and over and over and over. It's all set already. Why we need to repeat things which are already done.

[Robert Krulwich]

This is a very frequent journalism problem. Like you become boring to the person you're interviewing and you start flailing.

[Gabby]

Exactly. And we were, we were like, uh,

[Alex Hay]

you don't have anything want.

[Kristen Clark]

Why are we here?

[Alex Hay]

How.

[Robert Krulwich]

What do you do?

[David Conrad]

You know, we just thought maybe we should just be quiet, probably.

[Gabby]

We are about to make the tightest dirt I have ever seen in a 30 foot boat. We moved away from the tourist centers of the city and into these smaller canals. As we'd go around these tight turns, Alex would sing out to let the other boats know that we were coming.

[Alex Hay]

So here we have a crossway. This is why I shout out my direction in order to avoid accidents, because you cannot hear the gondola arriving.

[Gabby]

You know, we go under these beautiful archways past hidden gardens.

[Alex Hay]

You don't necessarily need eyes in order to appreciate a gondola tour. Every channel has a different sound. Sometimes you have a lot of birds singing, Sometimes they fly in your face. So this is a beautiful entrance here.

[Gabby]

I wanted to show you at one point our gondola cut through this rectangle of light. Shining from an open kitchen door.

[David Conrad]

It was nice. I mean, this side of Venice was unexpected and really beautiful. But the whole time we were sitting on our notepads and we were definitely quietly panicking.

[Alex Hay]

Well, you know,

[Gabby]

I didn't know this

[Alex Hay]

at the time, but I thought there's some. You know, I was like, there may be a little tweet young.

[Gabby]

And I think Alex was testing us.

[Alex Hay]

It may be a little bit too. We don't have enough experience, maybe. That was my concern. What I like the. I like the enthusiasm and I like the. There was an honesty, which I liked.

[Kristen Clark]

Did you ever figure out what you

[Jad Abumrad]

were being sussed out for or what was going on there?

[Gabby]

For sure, not on the boat, but we actually made Plans to go out to dinner that night.

[David Conrad]

And considering how the boat ride went, we thought at this point, we should return to square one and leave the recorder at home and just try and have a conversation.

[Gabby]

Anyway, we sit down outside, and very few people are in the restaurant. We were the only table outside they had to open.

[David Conrad]

And when we got there, too, we should say we met Alex's girlfriend. Right?

[Gabby]

Yeah. And we're making. I think we're just kind of making small. And. Yeah, it turns out. Turns out Alex's girlfriend is a photographer, and she'd done this photo essay of Alex, and the photos are really striking. Like, one of them, Alex is just, like, drowning under the water. There's one that's just, like Alex's back is to the camera.

[David Conrad]

This ripped, muscular back.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Gabby]

Like, arms splayed, like, looking out the

[David Conrad]

window over the city of Venice, Venice's lone defender.

[Gabby]

Just, like, so badass and, like, kind of like superhero style. So we were just chatting about the photos and asking Alec's girlfriend, like, you know, tell me a little bit more about what inspired you to take these photos. And, you know, like, small talk, friendly stuff. And she kind of was like, you know, it was just. It's so strange. You know, we thought it was so clear. We, like, the photos were so, like, they emphasized every masculine quality on Alex's body. We, you know, in our artist statement, you know, we used all of the male forms in Italian, you know, like lui, which means he, instead of le, which means she. But everybody at the photo exhibit was like, oh, must have been a typo, or you made a mistake. And she was like, which is funny because I'm Italian, so I should know, but. And I was like, oh, pronouns. Louis, he, Alex. She used he.

[Alex Hay]

He.

[Gabby]

Alex is a he. Is Alex trans? Like, oh, my gosh. Alex is a transgender man.

[Jad Abumrad]

Whoa. What did you. What did that mean to you in that moment?

[Gabby]

What I thought that meant was Alex was probably born in a body that he didn't identify with.

[David Conrad]

Yeah. I mean, mine was. I didn't think transgender. I didn't think. I thought, Alex is a guy. Of course Alex is a guy.

[Kristen Clark]

Really?

[David Conrad]

Yeah. I wasn't surprised. Were you surprised? No, I wasn't that surprised. I mean, I was. I'm not saying that the pronoun thing is inaccurate.

[Gabby]

I would say that, like, flipping into he, not a thing. Like, it was like, alex is a he. Alex is he. He is sitting at the table with us, Alex and his girlfriend. Very quickly, it was like, him. I'm looking at him. And then I start thinking about the story that we had come here to tell. That was about all of the women things that she had done. Her, her, her, her woman, hero, heroine, first female in 900 years, international symbol of female power. You start thinking about that and it's like those things are really hard to square in your head. This real person is also these stories, and how did that happen? What has it been like for 20 years to be inside of that story when you're actually a man?

[Jad Abumrad]

Coming up, Alex tells his side of the story, which is not what you would expect at all.

[Lulu Miller]

Radiolab is supported by Capital One with no fees or minimums on checking accounts. It's no wonder that Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends it's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com BankGuy Capital One NA member FDIC Radiolab is sponsored by BetterHelp. What do you think when you hear the word summer? Do you think heat? Do you think beach? Do you think travel? Do you think sand? Do you think long nights but still having to get up early? Do you think juggling summer camp schedules and attending weddings, perhaps without a date? Do you think malaise or overwhelm or sus sus summertime sadness? Look, just because it's nice out doesn't mean juggling it all suddenly got easier. If summer's making you sluggish, maybe therapy can help. And BetterHelp is one easy way to find a licensed therapist in the U.S. when you sign up with BetterHelp, a short questionnaire helps you identify your needs and preferences, and they use their 12 plus years of experience to find you someone great. They typically get it right the first time, but if you aren't happy with your match, you can switch to a different therapist at any time. You don't have to say yes to everything this summer. Find support in therapy, Sign up and get 10% [e-mail] Radiolab that's betterhelp.com Radiolab WNYC Studios is supported by Odoo. When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out Odoo at O D O o dot com. That's O D O o dot com. Radiolab is supported by Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center. In a small, groundbreaking clinical trial, 100% of participants with a specific type of rectal cancer saw their tumors disappear using immunotherapy alone. Researchers at MSK are now studying this approach in cancers of the stomach, liver, and more. And a majority of tumors are disappearing. For MSK giving day, all gifts will be tripled. Learn [e-mail] Radiolab

[Jad Abumrad]

Hey, I'm Jad Abumrad.

[Robert Krulwich]

I'm Robert Krylwich.

[Jad Abumrad]

This is Radiolab. And today we're telling the story of Alex Hay, the first ever female gondolier, someone who seemingly broke through this 900-year-old gender barrier and made headlines all over the world along the way. Except, turns out, Alex isn't a woman. And after who knows how many articles about Alex, this is the first time that he's telling his story to the public. And so we should probably stop for a second and talk about pronouns, because this is really important for many transgender people. In moments when Alex was publicly understood as a woman and was getting international press for it, we've decided, with Alex's permission, to only use his name or his title of first female gondolier. While some of the people interviewed for this story were unaware that Alex is transgender and do use female pronouns or do refer to him as a woman, we when we're talking about him, we will only use male pronouns.

[David Conrad]

So after that dinner, we made plans for the next day on his motorboat, and he would just take us to a quiet spot and we would talk. Was the agreement on the water? On the water.

[Alex Hay]

Shut up. Stop it. Pasta, eh, la la.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay, and how does that begin?

[David Conrad]

A lot of false starts.

[Kristen Clark]

Well, I don't know.

[David Conrad]

Maybe I can ask. Has anyone ever asked you what gender pronoun you prefer?

[Alex Hay]

No. Never. Never have. Ever.

[David Conrad]

So after getting some of the basics out of the way, Alex kind of started at the beginning.

[Alex Hay]

Well, you know, it's a long story. I was born transgender.

[Gabby]

This is in Germany. Alex tells us he was born with a female body, but at a pretty early age knew himself to be a little boy.

[Alex Hay]

I knew already before I went to school with three years, I was standing on the toilet to pee inside.

[Gabby]

Alex says that, you know, for him, you know, he had the sense Even when he was three, that there should just be something on his body that wasn't there.

[Alex Hay]

Yeah. Yeah. No, I was praying for a penis every night.

[Kristen Clark]

My.

[Alex Hay]

My parents knew about it.

[Gabby]

His parents were actually both doctors.

[Alex Hay]

They. They knew, but they. They were not supportive. You know, I. I heard them. You know, they were talking about all the weird stuff I did, how he

[David Conrad]

would rip the arms off of his

[Alex Hay]

Barbies, coloring them like, you know, with a black pencil and, like, destroying them and.

[David Conrad]

Or the way Alex dressed himself when

[Alex Hay]

there was a swimming lesson in the school. I was there only with little pants, or you call them a base suit for boys. And, you know, I was, of course, very aggressive as a child.

[David Conrad]

A lot of fights.

[Alex Hay]

You know, I got quite. I was quite violent as a kid. So now I can laugh about this. But, you know, it was a drama at home. It was a drama. The constant, constant try of my mother to get this behavior out of me.

[Gabby]

Alex says pretty early on, his parents basically gave up on him.

[Alex Hay]

They ignored me as much as they could, which was, you know, in a way, it was saving me, because I could wear whatever I wanted, could do whatever I wanted.

[Gabby]

And then when Alex was 10, a little brother was born.

[Alex Hay]

And that was a shock. That was a terrible shock, because basically it confirmed that my mother wanted desperately a boy, but she didn't accept me as her son. That's what it was.

[Gabby]

Alex said basically, you know, that was the first time he saw what, like, it should look like, basically, when a parent loves their kid.

[David Conrad]

So when he was 15, he ran away from home.

[Alex Hay]

I escaped to Hamburg, and in Hamburg, you have a huge district called Sao Pauli where they have all the prostitutes and, you know, all the bad things. And that's exactly where I went.

[Gabby]

Some people kind of took him under their wing, got a job, kind of figured out how to take care of himself.

[Alex Hay]

I got lucky, but I know also very unlucky stories, but I got lucky.

[Jad Abumrad]

Did he ever think about transitioning to a male body?

[Gabby]

He says he thought about it at

[Alex Hay]

one point, but in the 80s, when I was 15, the opportunities you have had to become a man were very, very poor.

[Gabby]

In particular, if you wanted to go down the road of surgery.

[Alex Hay]

What I can remember from my family was constant talks about how operations went wrong, how they went wrong, and what went wrong. And so for me to go in a hospital to do an operation, this is not going to happen.

[Gabby]

And, of course, many transgender people don't end up having surgery. But anyway, after Hamburg, at some point, Alex fell into filmmaking and ended up In San Francisco, working in the film industry. And so 1996, he got involved in a production that sent him abroad to go scope out locations for a film that was going to be shot in Venice. So shows up in Venice in 1996.

[Robert Krulwich]

How old is he around at this point?

[Gabby]

29.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh, so he's older.

[Gabby]

He's not a kid at this point. Originally, he's just supposed to stay a few days. Kind of just enough time to do some research and scope things out. But somewhere along the way, he sees these guys rowing their boats down the canal. And for reasons he can't entirely explain, he's just transfixed.

[Alex Hay]

I was fascinated by this, kind of bored. And I was fascinated by the rowing style that you roll forward so you actually see where you're going. So I was just fascinated, and I just wanted to try it out myself.

[Gabby]

Eventually, Alex ends up actually meeting a gondolier and asks, like, do you think I could do this? And he actually ended up down at the gondola station as an apprentice. Did they ask you why you wanted to study?

[Alex Hay]

I remember the first day I was introduced by the head boss of the group. Okay, so this is Alex. She's gonna be our mascot.

[David Conrad]

Because they saw Alex as a woman, and there had never been a woman gondolier.

[Alex Hay]

Most of them thought for sure this was like a kind of a joke. There was a very old one who later said, now we have a gondolier with tits.

[David Conrad]

For the first several months, Alex says he basically just picked up after the guys.

[Alex Hay]

You were the busboy for everybody, so you needed to clean their boats and to ship out the water like, 10, 20 times a day.

[Gabby]

He says it's really backbreaking, grueling work for somebody that everybody sees as a woman. You'd think this would be, like, the worst place on earth. But, you know, actually, those first.

[David Conrad]

Those first months in the city, just kind of with the boys, dirty jokes,

[Alex Hay]

I thought, this is great.

[Gabby]

Alex knew all the gondoliers, nicknames, walked and talked and acted like them and cursed in the same way. And he says he felt like he was part of this tradition of learning from these old guys who were mentors to him.

[Alex Hay]

It was really like, maybe the best time of my. My life. It was.

[Gabby]

It was like he was home.

[Alex Hay]

And then the trouble began.

[David Conrad]

It started with a journalist. This is reporter Consuelo Turin. We met in a noisy cafe.

[Gabby]

So it all started in 1996 with a translator, when Consuele was a collaborator of Nuova Venezia.

[David Conrad]

She was a cub reporter in Venice, working for a very politically progressive newspaper, and she was out looking for her

[Robert Krulwich]

big story, and she runs into our. How do they encounter each other?

[Alex Hay]

Aviva Visto, Alex.

[Gabby]

Consuelo saw Alex at one of the gondolier stations, and she was like,

[Alex Hay]

whoa.

[Gabby]

It's obviously, this struck her attention. It looked to her like there was this woman rowing among men and seeming to kind of blend right in,

[Robert Krulwich]

was

[Gabby]

attracted by this vision, unusual vision for Venice.

[Alex Hay]

So she observed her.

[Gabby]

She said, I camped out for, like, a whole morning and basically just watched Alex's behavior.

[David Conrad]

Alex didn't want to talk.

[Alex Hay]

I told her, I can't talk about it.

[David Conrad]

Told her, basically, I'm just a student. They're teaching me, don't make this into a thing.

[Gabby]

Consuelo said, listen, I recognize that you don't want to talk to me, that you're apprehensive, and that this might be difficult, and I get that this might even damage your reputation with the other gondoliers, but irrelevant, important. This is an important story. You're a pioneer. I can't ignore you.

[David Conrad]

And so Consuelo said, there are two options. I'm gonna write the story no matter what. So you can either talk to me and we can do the story together, or I can write what I think

[Alex Hay]

that was the alpha. You know, I said, it can't go out now. And she said, it will. It will.

[Robert Krulwich]

And why wasn't Consuelo persuaded that she should wait?

[Alex Hay]

Well, there were journalists coming from all over the place.

[Gabby]

You know, I think the story was gonna get out there, and somebody was gonna write it.

[Jad Abumrad]

And Alex never sort of stopped and was like, listen, Consuelo or whoever, let me just tell you the real story.

[Robert Krulwich]

The way out of this is to speak. And yet he stays quiet.

[Gabby]

Right.

[Jad Abumrad]

Do you have a sense why?

[Gabby]

I mean, so just to kind of give, like, some data points that might be helpful in understanding kind of where we were. So we're talking 1997 just to give you, like, a corollary thing. Where we were in our discourse around LGBT issues was, like, Ellen Degeneres, I think, that year.

[Alex Hay]

This is. This is so hard.

[Gabby]

But I came out on her show. I think I've realized that I am.

[Alex Hay]

I can't even say the word. Why can't I say the word?

[Gabby]

And, like, shortly after it was canceled, Caitlyn Jenner was just a few years ago, like, we didn't even really have a grip on what transgender was. That wasn't a conversation that we were having in public. Can you imagine what it would Be like. To be like, guys, guys, guys. Don't worry, though. I'm actually a man. That wouldn't have gone over so well with the dudes at the gondola station.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah, yeah. So what ended up happening after Consuelo and Alex had the showdown about the article?

[Gabby]

Well, a couple days later, Alex was on the way to the gondola station.

[Alex Hay]

I found it in the newspaper shop,

[David Conrad]

the headline,

[Alex Hay]

una donna svide gondolieri.

[Gabby]

Una donna svide gondolieri.

[David Conrad]

A woman is challenging the gondoliers.

[Alex Hay]

So I was like, oh, my God,

[Kristen Clark]

this is gonna be hell.

[Gabby]

So it's in the newspaper stand, Alex shows up at the gondolier station, and of course, there's a big hello.

[Robert Krulwich]

A big, unfriendly hello.

[Gabby]

Yeah, just like a. Oh, hello, gondoliera.

[Alex Hay]

Zola's boys, they got really, really angry. They were like, we do everything to teach you well, and, you know, now you're challenging us.

[Gabby]

Alex says a lot of the gondoliers stopped talking to him. They wouldn't even let him wash their boats.

[Alex Hay]

And then, you know, then, of course, then there were the ones who said, ah, I told you in the beginning.

[Gabby]

Told you she was just going to blab to the press, a woman is

[Alex Hay]

not a good thing. The whole thing, you know, was like a little stone becoming like that huge, huge thing.

[Gabby]

By the way, this is right. This is coming right before Alex is about to take the very first exam. There's actually a series of exams, and it gets a little complicated. But eventually, anybody who wants to be a gondolier has to take this rowing test.

[David Conrad]

And by all accounts, Alex was good.

[Gabby]

Like, we talked to the guy who was the head of the Gondoliers association

[Soren Wheeler]

at that time, Alex I.

[Gabby]

This guy, Fulvio Scarpo, was like, alex,

[Kristen Clark]

for me, is more good. The other men, gondoliers.

[Robert Krulwich]

And this is the head of the guild.

[David Conrad]

Yeah.

[Gabby]

And we also talked to this legendary rower named Franco Crea, and he was also like, alex is better than most of the guys. So anyway, Alex takes the test, and

[Alex Hay]

I failed the exam, which wouldn't have been.

[Gabby]

That by itself wouldn't have been such a big deal because a whole bunch of people fail the first exam. But the thing was, there was a feeling that, like, something deeply unfair was happening.

[David Conrad]

According to Consuelo, a lot of people started to think maybe the fix was

[Alex Hay]

in because there were other boys there who failed, who were better than other boys who did not fail.

[Gabby]

Alex says suspiciously, pretty much all the people that passed were sons of gondoliers. Or from gondolier families, because I had

[Alex Hay]

the right last name. So then I got angry. I got a lawyer.

[David Conrad]

Alex thought this was going to bring attention to how corrupt the license practice is, how corrupt this association is.

[Alex Hay]

I wanted that the exam is repeated for everybody.

[Gabby]

And this lawyer was negotiating. And the Gondoliers association was like, if we let everyone retake the test, that will basically be admitting that we favor certain families over other families.

[Alex Hay]

That was exactly what I wanted.

[David Conrad]

But it's not what they wanted.

[Gabby]

They said, we don't want the bad press of this. But then, and this is another moment, according to Alex, where his story just gets hijacked.

[Alex Hay]

My lawyer negotiated without my permission, according

[Gabby]

to Alex, without telling him. The lawyer, together with the Gondoliers association, dug up this old law that says because Alex is a woman, I mean, he's not, he's a man. But they thought he was a woman. And this law says that as a woman, he had the right to take the test again, this time with women judges. In the boat, when she came back and said, okay, here's what we're gonna do. Do you remember what you said?

[Alex Hay]

I was pissed. I was very upset. That was not what I wanted. Has nothing to do with man or woman.

[Gabby]

Do you think she was your champion because she identified with you?

[Alex Hay]

Yeah, for sure. But it was not my story. It's her story.

[David Conrad]

But unfortunately for Alex, as soon as the lawyer did that, it became everyone's story.

[Alex Hay]

Oh, yeah, because the press there ran with it.

[David Conrad]

In the next two months, every paper in town was writing about it, suspended

[Alex Hay]

by a gondolier's examination.

[Kristen Clark]

Alexandra Mrs. Texan the gondola band from foreigners.

[David Conrad]

Then the story went global.

[Alex Hay]

Germa catches a crap in her bid to become Danny's first woman sexist sing

[Kristen Clark]

first female gondolier girl Gondolier fights a male tradition.

[Robert Krulwich]

Male gondolier blames chauvinism.

[Gabby]

And then things escalate into a full blown gender battle. The gondoliers are of course, super pissed because of all this press that they're getting. We talked to a couple of key, like gondolier guys. Alexandra Hay.

[Kristen Clark]

Well, no, no, they have some thoughts

[Gabby]

and feelings about him.

[Alex Hay]

She had to pass a test.

[Robert Krulwich]

She didn't.

[Alex Hay]

It's a disaster.

[Gabby]

Alex says at one point, things got

[Alex Hay]

so bad that there was one of them who was saying, you know, I'm gonna wait for you in a small little street with a knife. I'm gonna kill you or I'm gonna. So I grabbed the guy and I said, where's your knife? I'm here. Get it out, you know, do it. That was one episode. There are many others.

[Gabby]

So on the one side, Alex said he has gondoliers wanting to knife him.

[Alex Hay]

On the other, it was terrible because then feminism kicked in.

[Gabby]

Alex said he had all these women rushing in to save him.

[Alex Hay]

Where do you want me to lie?

[Gabby]

Because they thought he was a she.

[Alex Hay]

We read in the paper that she had tried to take the test and had failed and had called foul, saying that the Venetians were mean and, you know, sexist and wouldn't let women become gondoliers.

[Gabby]

This is Jean Caporol. She was active in the community of Venetian women rowers at the time.

[Robert Krulwich]

What women, by the way? Like, there aren't any.

[Gabby]

Well, so there weren't any women gondoliers at that time, but there's a whole community of female rowers. They have teams and they race. I've been doing Venetian rowing for over 20 years, and being a female rower

[Alex Hay]

in Venice was very difficult.

[Gabby]

Elena, this woman rower I was talking

[Alex Hay]

to last week, I was with my

[Gabby]

rowing partner, was like, I'm routinely, when I'm out on the water, like old men yell at me and say, hey, what you doing?

[Alex Hay]

Return back home in the kitchen, cooking or cleaning your house, why are you here, Tajina? You're just a contortno. You're just a side dish.

[Gabby]

They both told me, when it comes to racing, there's a big discrepancy in the prize money.

[Alex Hay]

The men are getting like four times as much prize money as the women. We are now trying to convince the city of Venice, who gives prizes, that we are like men, we are not less than them.

[Gabby]

Here are all these women who have been, you know, incrementally busting their ass to try to be taken seriously in the sport.

[Alex Hay]

We are here, we can do this.

[Gabby]

And when they saw this press about Alex fighting the gondoliers, they reached out.

[Alex Hay]

I sent one of the other consiglieras down to speak to her. You know, come to our club and come and work with us and help us out, help us teach people, you've got your back. But she wasn't interested. No, of course not.

[Gabby]

Because to Alex, there are two problems.

[Alex Hay]

First of all, you cannot compare the gondolier rowers with the racing rowers.

[Gabby]

There are two different styles of rowing. And second of all, the sense I got was that it was kind of like, I don't want to row with you. You guys all wear matching white skirts, like, not my thing.

[Alex Hay]

So I Remember, there was a lot of resentment.

[Jad Abumrad]

You're a woman.

[Alex Hay]

How can you be one of the. In this battle for the equality. Some people, they see me and then they are convinced that I'm a feminist, that I am one of them and I'm not.

[David Conrad]

And all of this comes to a head in October of 2004, when Alex has to retake the test. And this time with champion women rowers in the boat judging him, there was

[Kristen Clark]

a lot of pressure.

[Gabby]

Everything about this test is supposed to be a secret. The location of the test, the path that Alex is going to row.

[Alex Hay]

I've had no clue where we're going to go.

[Gabby]

But suspiciously, as Alex stepped into the boat, he noticed that there was a huge crowd lined up all the way down the canal.

[Alex Hay]

Gondoliers and their friends, and they're shouting and yelling. People were screaming all kinds of swear words and all kinds of go home. I cannot imagine the hate.

[Gabby]

He had female rowers in the boat glaring at him. There's press lined up along the entire

[Alex Hay]

way, plus the tourists, plus every. Everybody. It was full of people. I felt like I'm in a ring. I tried to block it all out because I needed to do an exam. I wanted to do a good performance, And I wasn't able. It was hell. One of the worst, worst days of my entire life. I really don't. I don't wish that to nobody. That was real hell.

[Lulu Miller]

Radiolab is supported by Capital One with no fees or minimums on checking accounts. It's no wonder that Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking. With Capital One, if he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yup, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com BankGuy Capital One NA member FDIC Radiolab is sponsored by BetterHelp. What do you think when you hear the word summer? Do you think heat? Do you think beach? Do you think travel? Do you think sand? Do you think long nights but still having to get up early? Do you think juggling summer camp schedules and attending weddings, perhaps without a date? Do you think malaise or overwhelm or summertime sadness? Look, just because it's nice out doesn't mean juggling it all suddenly got easier. If summer's making you sluggish, maybe therapy can help. And BetterHelp is one easy Way to Find a Licensed therapist in the U.S. when you sign up with BetterHelp, a short questionnaire helps you identify your needs and preferences and and they use their 12 plus years of experience to find you someone great. They typically get it right the first time, but if you aren't happy with your match, you can switch to a different therapist at any time. You don't have to say yes to everything. This summer, find support in therapy. Sign up and get 10% [e-mail] Radiolab that's BetterH E L P.com Radiolab Radiolab is supported by Smalls did you know that some cat foods contain so much carbohydrate filler that they're closer to a granola bar than a prey animal? It's true. In fact, dry kibble can be 30 to 50% carbs, despite cats having almost no dietary need for them. Smalls Fresh recipes are over 80% animal protein and they never use fillers or artificial ingredients. Their food is so healthy that 88% of cat parents say that after feeding Smalls, they notice that their cat has better digestion, is softer and shinier, and has more energy to play because it's actually good for cats. If you want to invest in your cat's health, Smalls is giving you 60% off your cat's first order, plus free shipping and free treats for life when you go to smalls.com Radiolab that's 60% off your first order, plus free shipping and free treats for life when you head to smalls.com Radiolab

[Kristen Clark]

this is Ira Glass of this American Life.

[Robert Krulwich]

Do you know our show?

[Kristen Clark]

Okay, well either way I'm gonna tell you about it.

[Jad Abumrad]

We make stories, old fashioned stories that

[Gabby]

hopefully pull you into the beginning with funny moments and feelings and people in surprising situations. And then you just want to find out what is going to happen and cannot stop listening.

[Kristen Clark]

That's right. I'm talking about stories that make you

[Alex Hay]

miss appointments and ignore your loved ones.

[Kristen Clark]

This is American Life. Every week, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jad Abumrad]

Hey, I'm Jad Abumrad.

[Robert Krulwich]

I'm Robert Krulwich. This is Radiolab.

[Jad Abumrad]

We return now to a story from Kristen Clark and David Conrad about Alex Hayden, transgender man who became somehow the first female gondoliera in 923 years and thus an international feminist hero sensation.

[Robert Krulwich]

And so we now find Alex being painted by everybody in town in colors that he doesn't particularly agree with.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah, and what's interesting according to Kristen, is just how easy it is to do that to someone.

[Gabby]

Okay, so I'll tell you. As we were doing the interviewing and the reporting, I'm like, I'm feeling like I have a good grip on Alex's story. I'm feeling like, oh, man, I know what it feels like to be inside of a narrative that feels really icky. And so I feel like I'm kind of getting it, and I'm, like, understanding the full Alex. And, like, it's about all of these other things that have nothing to do with gender. So Alex's story isn't about gender at all. And for me, that made sense because I was like, in my life, gender has been a box. Like, even. Even when you're in the right. Even when you're in the right box, gender is a box. And it can feel shitty to be in that box. And so I was like, yeah, let's bust open those boxes together. We're going to show, you know, we're going to show people who you are, Alex. But then we would have these moments where I would be like, hmm, wait a second. Like, one night when we were in Venice, we were, like, trying to park our boat on the way to a restaurant. And, like, this guy is, like, trying to parallel park his boat. And Alex is kind of sitting there, like, chuckling at him. And you can hear, like, David chuckling in the background. And so the two of them are, like, you know, joking about it. And then Alex says, like, he drives like a woman, like an old lady. And I was like, you know, and kind of rolled my eyes at it. But then later at the dinner, he was like. He was like, you know, though, like, I don't really think that, like, a real woman could do this job. And he was, like, all, like, macho about it.

[Alex Hay]

Yeah, I remember you were shocked that I was saying such a macho a thing. I remember that. No, of course. You are very right. Women can do everything. But this job is going to be very tough because it's a real cruel community. Ambience is very cruel and rough.

[Gabby]

But when you said. But when you said that, I got so. I was like. I was so frustrated. And it was because I think I was attached to the idea of, like, it being equal, you know, I mean, I was. I was. I was just, like, super confused. Like, I don't know. I just. I just want to know what you think.

[Alex Hay]

Don't tell me what you want to know. Exactly.

[Gabby]

I'll admit, in the moment, I asked a kind of clumsy question. Do you feel. But it was just because he seemed to Be almost like prodding me, you know, having fun and winking at David. And do you feel like you're fundamentally on a different team from me?

[Alex Hay]

Okay, I am on David's team, but you can't see that because you identify with me. But that is not. I can't help that. How can I explain it to you? Let's put it this way. When I'm in a group of women, for example, and they start to talk, I feel uncomfortable. The chatting they have, I call it chicken chat is not really my cup of tea. You know, I like it. It can amuse me, but. But the minute they think that I am one of them, it doesn't amuse me anymore, and I feel uncomfortable. I'm a little alien there because they think I am one of them, and I'm not. When I'm with the boys, I feel comfortable. If it is a nice group of boys, which I like, then we have the same type of humor and, you know, the. The same stupid jokes about women.

[Gabby]

For Alex, I think what was really striking is that whatever it is that makes him feel comfortable being seen as a man but not as a woman, it runs very deep for me.

[Alex Hay]

There is a difference between men and women.

[Gabby]

Not everybody or even every transgender person would feel this way. But the way that he sees it, if there were no differences, there would

[Alex Hay]

be no wish to do transition, and there would be no transsexuality and sexuality like that if it would be the same. But it isn't. Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

So you were seeing him as like, a gender doesn't matter kind of icon. And he was saying, actually, it does matter.

[Gabby]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

Can I just ask a simpler question?

[Kristen Clark]

When.

[Jad Abumrad]

When does he actually become the first female gondoliera?

[Gabby]

Well, so Alex couldn't get one of these 400 or so special gondoliers licenses because he failed the test.

[Alex Hay]

But in 2005, I opened up my own business.

[Gabby]

He figured out that if he partners up with businesses in town, like hotels, he can actually row for them privately.

[Alex Hay]

At the time, I was looking at all the laws, and I found that it was possible to open up my own business without having a license. So I did.

[David Conrad]

And so for years, he was just kind of doing this quietly.

[Kristen Clark]

Then Alexandra, she's not a gondolier.

[Alex Hay]

She's not a gondolier. She works for a hotel.

[David Conrad]

Some of the gondoliers began to notice that Alex was rowing passengers without a license. And of course, they didn't like it.

[Kristen Clark]

She didn't pass a test saying, like,

[Gabby]

you can't do that.

[Alex Hay]

She's not part of our team.

[Kristen Clark]

Does not have a driver's license.

[Gabby]

You have to be a member of this organization. You have to have a specific license

[Kristen Clark]

in order to practice what we can say.

[Alex Hay]

She's not a gondola driver. I got some threats, verbal threats and damaging the gondola and things like that. All kinds of stupid little bullshit. So when they understood they cannot threaten me this way, then they pressured City hall to change the law.

[Gabby]

City hall basically said, like, you can't row.

[Lulu Miller]

You can.

[Gabby]

You can't row a gondola with tourists in it without a license.

[Robert Krulwich]

And the law passed and was signed, and it became the real law.

[Gabby]

Yeah. And so one day Alex is out on his boat and he just gets pulled over and basically is told, you're breaking this new law.

[Alex Hay]

And so I wanted to defend myself. So we went on trial in court.

[David Conrad]

It was Alex, his one lawyer. City hall and the Gondoliers association, there are four lawyers.

[Alex Hay]

Four lawyers. I thought, you know, this is a lost case. Any already. But City hall lost.

[David Conrad]

City hall fights back.

[Gabby]

Case goes to the highest court in the land.

[Alex Hay]

They lost again in front of a court with me, a little stranger from out of nowhere.

[Gabby]

Now, technically, the decision just said hotels can provide for their customers the way that they need to. So if they want to hire a chauffeur who happens to row in a gondola, they can do that. But what that actually meant was that now, for the first time, Alex could be considered a gondolier.

[Alex Hay]

That was a huge deal. Massive along the canals are women paddles against a tie. New York Times came. Woman takes on Venice Gondola cartel. Chicago Tribune came in. First female gondolier rocked the boat. Le Monde came in.

[Gabby]

So this is where we get all of those articles we read before we came to Venice.

[Alex Hay]

This story went all over the world

[David Conrad]

and every single one.

[Soren Wheeler]

Bravo, gondolier.

[Alex Hay]

Brava.

[David Conrad]

The message was the same. We have our first woman gondolier.

[Lulu Miller]

So.

[Alex Hay]

That was something. It was unstoppable. I could not go in there and say, excuse me, you know, I'm not really, you know, identifying. No, it was gone. Okay. It was done.

[Gabby]

Alex, at this point in 2007, doesn't have any other income except for being able to market himself through hotels and eventually online.

[Alex Hay]

And so, of course, I need to have a website.

[Gabby]

People are actively seeking out this person who has broken the gender barrier and become the first female gondolier in Venice.

[Alex Hay]

So it would have been stupid to try to go against all this. It was already written.

[David Conrad]

So Alex decides To make his email, his Facebook page, and his website

[Alex Hay]

all

[David Conrad]

prima gondoliera, or the first female gondolier. I'm wondering if creating a website with that name, did that feel like you taking control of that narrative, or was that narrative taking control of your decision on that website?

[Alex Hay]

It's nothing to do with what I want. That's a label, you know, I cannot change a label who has, you know, 20 years of history. Shut up.

[Jad Abumrad]

Shh.

[Gabby]

Alex told us he was talking to his therapist one day at this transgender center they have near Venice, and she

[Alex Hay]

said, you are, like, in a cage. This is like a cage for you. You can't get really out of this, you know, It's a difficult situation. It's a very difficult situation, but I'm tired,

[Robert Krulwich]

Love.

[Gabby]

By the time we met Alex, he'd been living almost 10 years like this, you know, just kind of between these two stories. At night, out to his close friends, but by day, giving these tours as the first female gondolier in Venice.

[David Conrad]

And every few months, every new tourist season, these headlines would just regenerate. First female gondolier. First female gondolier. First female.

[Gabby]

And when we left Venice, that's kind of where we left him. Kind of hanging in the middle of that. And the impression that we got is, maybe that's just gonna be how it always is for him.

[David Conrad]

But then.

[Alex Hay]

It's quite a while we didn't see each other.

[Gabby]

So fast forward six months, we get an email from Alex. He says he's in San Francisco. Big things have been happening in your life.

[Alex Hay]

Yeah.

[David Conrad]

He had some news.

[Alex Hay]

Well, you know, I remember when we were sitting. When we were last talking in Venice and we were sitting on the terrace, I remember that I was already in. I knew there was something coming, but I wasn't sure what it was. It was a very difficult year. I was kind of depressed, which, you know, I'm not a depressed person usually. And so I was hanging out. I was not moving much. I was hanging out on my sofa, and I was trying to think. And I was More and more every day, I was unhappy about people telling me that I was a she and not a he. I don't know why. I got completely intolerant before. I was like, I don't care what they say to me. I care that they are nice. And now I was just like, I can't hear this anymore. This is so wrong.

[David Conrad]

Alex was about to turn 50 at this point, and it turns out that part of what was happening was that he was beginning to go through the early stages of menopause, I was hot.

[Alex Hay]

I was tired, sweat, breaking out for nothing.

[Gabby]

After fighting with the gondoliers, fighting with the feminists, this was like a final insult.

[Alex Hay]

So I have this idea that hormones might help with how I feel. I start to take the testosterone that was on the 7th of November, which after six hours, I get the first smile on my face in nearly a year. I felt good, and the mood swings, they stopped.

[Kristen Clark]

So I'm.

[Alex Hay]

Now I'm like, I knew me because I was looking in the mirror every day, and I was like, who is this monster?

[Gabby]

He decided to fly to San Francisco, meet with a doctor.

[Alex Hay]

Some people wait like two years or three years before they start to do a surgery. I wanted to do it now because for me, it was something like now or never. So now I'm here in San Francisco. I've had top surgery on the 24th.

[Kristen Clark]

That's about.

[Alex Hay]

Yeah, four days ago. And I wanted to start this year with a body which is confirming me. People see me as the first woman gondolier, and that means something for many people. It's not fair to them. So, you know, I need to. I needed to say something. I changed on the Facebook side, I changed the name. Now it's Alexey Gondola Trus. And I did already a statement on my old website. There is a statement.

[Gabby]

It says, dear guests, colleagues and friends, after holding myself back for three decades, it's time for me to depart from my wrong body. I am not changing who I am. I am becoming who I am.

[Jad Abumrad]

And is he back in Venice now?

[Alex Hay]

Yeah. Huh.

[Jad Abumrad]

And do you any sense of what that's gonna mean for his job or his life?

[Kristen Clark]

I have no idea.

[Alex Hay]

I have no clue. I don't know how my voice is gonna be in a month.

[Kristen Clark]

Should drop.

[Alex Hay]

I have no idea how my face is gonna look and my body is gonna look in two years, three years from now. We all leave it as a surprise. No idea. That's scary.

[Robert Krulwich]

Thanks to reporters Kristen Clark and David Conrad. Also thanks to Alexis Unguarded and Summer. And of course, a huge thanks to

[Jad Abumrad]

Alex for sharing a very difficult story with us.

[David Conrad]

Are you worried about what the responses might be to it?

[Kristen Clark]

Oh, my God, David. I'm a warrior. You think this is boring me? I've been to worse.

[Gabby]

I guess I remember, like, when we were sitting out on the balcony, you had said something like, I don't want to do another battle.

[Kristen Clark]

Exactly. I don't to want to do another battle. But if I have to, I will because I. I hope That I can at least help one person out there.

[Soren Wheeler]

Hey there, Soren. Here again. So we released that episode in 2017. Now, of course, it's 2026. And when we last had heard from Alex, we left him really in the middle of a moment of change. And in the years since, we didn't hear much from him. But I have found myself thinking about him all the time, and I know other people on the staff have too. And then we heard that he'd written a book which is actually being released here in the US today, the day this episode comes out, which is June 26th. And we're gonna get to that in a second. But we didn't really know anything about how his transition went for him, both professionally and personally. So I decided best thing I should do is just get ahold of him.

[Kristen Clark]

Yes.

[Soren Wheeler]

Nine years it's been. I don't know where to begin, but

[Kristen Clark]

maybe exactly that's the problem, because it's nine years and a lot of things happened.

[Soren Wheeler]

Turns out Alex has been through this sort of honestly mythic journey, starting where we left off in 2017. Just as he's getting back to Venice after his time in San Francisco, he's starting a physical transformation. But it was at the very beginning, and we weren't sure how that would affect his business.

[Kristen Clark]

No, business was really wonderful from 2017 until 2019. I really have had a blast in that period. It was a lot of fun. I've had a lot of fun at work.

[Soren Wheeler]

I think I read that you were having, like, celebrity people wanted to come ride your boat.

[Kristen Clark]

Yes, well, I've had that before. But then, you know, also because I felt so comfortable finally in my body, not to underestimate how that is pushing you forward in a very happy spot. And so I was in a very good place.

[Soren Wheeler]

And it was the body matching comfort level. Like, was that immediate, or did it take time?

[Kristen Clark]

Well, it takes time. That's why you have this period, which is called puberty, where you basically have a second one that is demanding. You know, obviously, when you have a certain age, you do not want to get silly anymore and do silly stuff and think silly things. But that is exactly what happens, because you need to basically reconsider everything once more. From the colors you like, from the food you like, from your sexuality, you know, everything.

[Soren Wheeler]

That's kind of amazing.

[Kristen Clark]

Yeah, it is a pretty amazing period of time.

[Soren Wheeler]

What's happening at the same time to your relationships? How is it affecting the way you were relating to other people?

[Kristen Clark]

I remember one gondolier, you know, passing by and saying, hey, Alex, you need to cure this cold. You have. I mean, you have this for weeks now. You need to cure the cold.

[Soren Wheeler]

Because of the voice.

[Kristen Clark]

Because of the voice, yeah. And I was cracking up them because that was very funny.

[Soren Wheeler]

I mean, do most people know what you're doing or nobody even knows?

[Kristen Clark]

Well, nobody really knew because I didn't tell anybody. You know, I was just letting people guess and. But then, you know, obviously, once somebody understood it, the whole city knew. It, you know, was like a wildfire. And so then I got, you know, funny questions. Very. How you call it, Questions you don't want to hear and you don't want to answer to it. But as I was the only out transgender at the time, obviously, you know, people ask me all kinds of questions about it.

[Soren Wheeler]

Is it an awkward but friendly curiosity or sort of like a.

[Kristen Clark]

No, it's pervert.

[Soren Wheeler]

Okay.

[Kristen Clark]

Yes. Unfortunately, most of the time. Most of the time. Obviously, there were also some nice questions and true interest, but that was maybe 5% of it. The rest was being very interested in a very pervert way.

[Soren Wheeler]

I find myself thinking back and being very interested in your relationship to the other gondoliers. Like, before, everything went bad with the test and the women rowers and the lawsuits, that group of men. You described it as a very happy community, a happy home, a happy place, and was obviously felt like something that got taken from you. But I don't know if there were parts of it that you kept.

[Kristen Clark]

That question now becomes a little bit complicated. I was very surprised. Does it work and how does it work, and is it longer than what I have and so on and so forth. So, you know, that was quite interesting.

[Soren Wheeler]

Yeah, the business is okay. People are being perverts, but the business was wonderful.

[Kristen Clark]

The business couldn't have been better. Really couldn't. So I was really on my way up to the very top, and then I got stopped by the police in the 18th of October in 2019. And I thought it was like a normal procedure of controlling something or whatnot. But then I understood that they want to confiscate the gondola, but they didn't told me why. So that's what happened. My gondola got taken away from me. And that for me was like, if you are a musician, you do not take the instrument away. But it was not only the instrument they were taking away. They were taking away the music as well and the right to play on another instrument. It was like there was nothing. All of a sudden, zero.

[Soren Wheeler]

This was Pegasus.

[Kristen Clark]

That was Pegasus.

[Alex Hay]

Yes.

[Kristen Clark]

He is now property of the state of Italy since 2019.

[Soren Wheeler]

But, like, why did this happen?

[Kristen Clark]

I didn't know at the time what was happening, why it was happening.

[Soren Wheeler]

Well, you weren't able to confirm what exactly went down with Alex's boat, but

[Kristen Clark]

according to Alex, I found out years later, years later, I found out that there was no reason whatsoever to do this except for transphobia.

[Soren Wheeler]

Just discrimination and hate.

[Kristen Clark]

Exactly, exactly. And so, you know, I needed to leave because the situation became harsh because City hall allowed the request of the Gondoliers association and executed the confiscation of the gondola. The association felt very grand. Like, you know, they were proud and

[Soren Wheeler]

emboldened and, you know.

[Kristen Clark]

Yes, exactly. It was becoming an unlivable situation because everywhere I was going by foot or by motorboat, I got screamed at and pointed on. And my friends were getting concerned that this may be gonna escalate into physical violence.

[Soren Wheeler]

I mean, as we know from so many examples, it's a very real threat.

[Kristen Clark]

Right. I wasn't really afraid of them being physical violent because they are such cowards. However, it was, for me, unbearable to be in Venice and not be capable of working. And so, you know, this was like, just a losing game for me. So I decided to leave Venice. So I canceled my apartment, my bank accounts, everything. I canceled everything, and I sold everything. And I went to Switzerland for a while, and then Covid kicked in.

[Soren Wheeler]

Oh, my God.

[Kristen Clark]

And basically I was drifting, being without a proper home for six years. I didn't want to return to Germany. That was for me, like, to go backwards, which I hate to do. But somehow there was no other option at a certain point, because I spent all the savings I've had in those five years or four years. And then I needed to go back into my country where I was born and where I have the passport from, and ask the government for support. And that was not an easy thing to do. That was another very shameful idea. And I've done that only and exclusively after. There was no other possibility or solution. But I couldn't find housing and I couldn't find a job. It was like I was stuck in the mud for six years. I will always be a gondolier in the sense of, you're once a gondolier, you're always a gondolier, because it is not a job, but it is a handcraft. And it's so few people in the world who are doing that. It's something so unique. You cannot just leave that away. All of this needs to be canceled and Forgotten. That was very difficult to let go. That was the most difficult thing. And the second most difficult thing was Berlin, because I did not like Berlin. And, you know, from Venice, which is very tiny, to come into a big city which is quite ugly on the first sight at least, that was very difficult to swallow for me. And so I got depressed and didn't leave the house for quite a while. And then, you know, I needed to wake up from that. But it was incredibly difficult because I really was in such a black hall and I couldn't find my way out. I didn't saw a light, I didn't ask for help. And that was the most cruel thing I've ever done to myself. You know what I mean? In the end, it was not the enemy, it was myself. I destroyed myself by not fighting back. Yeah, I felt I was tired. I was too tired. Obviously, you ask yourself, what did I do wrong? Did I do anything which provoked this Somehow you think there is partially a fault somewhere. You did something wrong somewhere, otherwise this wouldn't have happened. You cannot imagine that people are so evil that they destroy your existence only because they hate you. I mean, that is hard to believe. And so I was searching my own fault in all this.

[Soren Wheeler]

What let you or helped you or pushed you to climb out?

[Kristen Clark]

Good question. If you remember the last time we talked, I said that I am a warrior and that whatever happens, I gonna fight back. And so, you know, there was this little, tiny, little various little low voice knocking and saying, hey, you need to get the hell out of this situation. You are hurting yourself. Get your stuff together and find a way to snap out of there. And I did.

[Soren Wheeler]

What was your first move? To start writing, to start leaving the apartment. To start.

[Kristen Clark]

I needed to start moving my body somehow, just a little bit, you know, a shoulder or a foot or just to stand up and to sit down again. I was so tired. And then when I got better, my health really collapsed. When I thought, now I'm better, like mentally I was better. Then my health was saying, hello, I'm here too, and collapsed. Very difficult situation, which I do not wish to nobody. Because to snap out of this kind of depression and misfortune is nearly impossible.

[Soren Wheeler]

But at some point you do start creating, like writing, I assume, or maybe thinking about film again.

[Kristen Clark]

Yeah. You know, when I lost my existence, the first thing I was doing, I knew I needed to stay in motion. So I made a small film which was quite successful for what it was. But it didn't work out the way I wanted it to work out because Of COVID It was ignored in Germany, but it's shown now, next weekend in Hamburg at the Short Film Festival, really for the very first time. So it has still a premiere status. And they are like, four years late, but, you know, who cares? So that's gonna be funny because I studied visual communication in Hamburg and it's shown in the cinema. I always dreamt that I wanted to

[Soren Wheeler]

show a movie there, that I just got. Goosebumps.

[Alex Hay]

Yeah.

[Kristen Clark]

That is one of those magic, crazy things which happened.

[Soren Wheeler]

That's a nice return.

[Kristen Clark]

Yes.

[Soren Wheeler]

What's the name of the film?

[Kristen Clark]

Venetian. That's a Venetian saying. It means, I shall come again. And so I was doing that little film and I was writing the book in the COVID time. I've had time. So I was writing this thing on my iPad with two fingers, because, you know, I'm a gondolier. I'm not an IT engineer or an author or whatever. So I was writing this with two fingers on my iPad, and all this was not going anywhere. There was nothing coming out of what I was doing. And I couldn't find a proper job. When I came to Berlin, for me, my life was over. And it was very interesting because Berlin was, from day one, very, very kind to me. I've got support from people I didn't know, and I've got some job proposals. And, you know, things were moving in a better direction, but I was not ready for it. I was like, oh, you know, I just want to die. Because I didn't want to go back to Germany. It took me years to understand that Berlin is. How can I say? It's softer than you think it is. Yes. There's a lot of love here. There's a lot of community here, and there are so many different worlds here.

[Soren Wheeler]

Are you now happy in Berlin?

[Kristen Clark]

Now I am happy in Berlin. And that is kind of new in the sense I'm like. I'm driving around, you know, in Berlin, and I'm like, oh, this is not too bad. Or, you know, where before I was like, oh, my God, this is unbearable. This is so ugly. And now I'm like, oh, it's not so bad. Come on. There are beautiful places here. Don't get me wrong. There are beautiful parts and sections here. But obviously, after Venice, everything is ugly.

[Soren Wheeler]

Yeah. Do you still want to go back?

[Kristen Clark]

I knew that question would come. Yes, I would. I would, too.

[Soren Wheeler]

Rogue.

[Alex Hay]

No, no.

[Kristen Clark]

I think I'm physically not capable anymore to do that because I was really, really sick. And it is quite a wonder that I'm still alive. However, Venice is so much more for me than the gondoliering. It's my hometown. This is where I belong.

[Soren Wheeler]

Yeah, I understand that.

[Kristen Clark]

However, Berlin was so kind. Even when I was rejecting Berlin, Berlin was not giving up on me. And I have a big thank you in my heart for Berlin, because Berlin really saved me.

[Soren Wheeler]

And then the book. When does the book come?

[Kristen Clark]

The book is coming out in New York on the 26th of June.

[Soren Wheeler]

It feels good. It makes me happy to hear this arc of life for you.

[Kristen Clark]

I can only tell people, never give up. I really hope that the world is going to come together and that the change is coming and that we move away from this hate, because hate is absurd and so stupid and so unnecessary. There's space for everybody, and I don't understand why this intolerance needs to happen. And I do not need to tell you that the transgender community is affected harshly and deeply and extremely by it.

[Soren Wheeler]

Yeah, I share that hope.

[Kristen Clark]

I just wonder why I need to pay such a high price just in order to be happy with myself. That doesn't make sense to me.

[Soren Wheeler]

Yeah.

[Kristen Clark]

Because I became who I am, and I paid an extremely high price for it. I nearly lost myself in it. And I think that is something which I hope will not ever happen again to somebody else in my position.

[Soren Wheeler]

One final note. Just a few days before we put this episode up, Alex was traveling to New York City to have a release party for his book. And he told me that he was pulled aside by border control, interrogated, and actually detained for a while in New Jersey. And he had to go back to Berlin, where he is again now. Big, big thanks to Alex for giving us his time once again, for being so open and honest and direct. It's always a pleasure talking to him. You can order Alex's book on the Pegasus publisher's website. It's called the Gondolier by Alex High. That's H A. I definitely go check it out. One last note. If you're transgender and living in the US and you're struggling or you need community or support or resources, always remember that you can call the Trans Lifeline at 877-565-8860. I'm Soren Wheeler. This is Radiolab. Thanks for listening.

[Gabby]

Hi, I'm Gabby. I'm from the Bay Area, California. And here are the staff credits. Radiolab is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser. Soren Wheeler is our executive editor. Sarah Sandbach is our executive director. Our managing editor is Pat Walters. Dylan Keefe is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Jeremy Bloom, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Maria Paz Gutierrez, Sindhu Nainasambandan, Matt Kielty, Mona Maudgauker, Alex Neeson, Sara Khari, Natalia Ramirez, Rebecca Rand, Joanna Strogatz, Anissa Vitce, Arian Wack, Molly Webster and Jessica Young, with help from Gabby Santis and Maya Appleby Melamed. Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, Natalie Middleton, Angeli Mercado, and Sophie Semay.

[Alex Hay]

Hi, I'm Daniel from Madrid. Leadership support from Radiolab. Science programming is provided by the Simons foundation and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support from Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

[Lulu Miller]

Radiolab is supported by Capital One with no fees or minimums on checking accounts it's no wonder that Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking. With Capital One, if he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends it's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com BankGuy Capital One NA Member FDIC if you walk into a room and can't remember why, it could be nothing or something more. If you can feel a familiar recipe, it could be a slip up or it could be associated with amyloid plaque buildup in the brain. Amyloid is a protein that your body produces naturally, but a buildup in the brain could lead to memory and thinking issues. To see what may be behind your memory and thinking issues, talk to your doctor about getting a full assessment. It's never too early to start the conversation. Visit amyloid.com to learn more.