12: Proof

Summary

Radiolab Shorts #12: "Proof" (Aired August 11, 2009)

Episode Overview

This succinct and captivating Radiolab Short, hosted by Jad Abumrad, explores humanity’s enduring desire to find scientific proof of the afterlife. Through a historical tale featuring spiritualist Thomas Lynn Bradford, and with insightful commentary from acclaimed science writer Mary Roach (author of Spook: Science Tackles the Afterlife), the episode dissects an extraordinary, tragic attempt to answer: “What happens after you die?” The conversation blends curiosity, skepticism, and empathy, using Roach’s signature wit and thoughtfulness.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Introduction: Science Confronts the Afterlife

• Radiolab begins by posing the classic question: What really happens when you die?
• Host Jad Abumrad reads from a New Scientist article about various scientists—physicians, physicists, psychologists, even two Nobel laureates—who have tried to prove the existence of an afterlife, but notes only one man, Thomas Lynn Bradford, has taken it to the ultimate extreme (00:34–01:08).
  • Notable quote (Jad, 00:37): "What happens after you die? I can name you forty-seven men who have tried to harness the rational horsepower of science to answer this most floaty question."

2. Who Was Thomas Lynn Bradford?

• Mary Roach joins the episode (01:09), introducing Bradford as a spiritualist from the early 1900s, when Spiritualism was a flourishing religion based on the belief in a peaceful afterlife called "Summerland" (01:26–01:55).
  • Notable quote (Mary, 01:34): "Spiritualism was a religion...predicated on this notion that there is no death—that when you die, you just go on to Summerland. A beautiful place beyond."

3. The Quest for Definitive Proof

• Unlike mere believers, Bradford wanted proof—something undeniable and scientific (02:04).
• In 1921, Bradford places an ad in a Detroit newspaper calling for help to prove the existence of an afterlife (02:14–02:30).
  • He is answered by Ruth Moran, a self-described psychic. Together, they devise an audacious plan: one of them would die, and attempt to “communicate” from the afterlife; the other would wait and listen for the message (02:39–02:51).
  • Notable quote (Mary, 02:46): "One person dies, crosses over to the afterlife, and then from the beyond that person would yell back, 'Hey, it worked! I'm here. There's an afterlife.'"

4. The Sacrifice and Aftermath

• Bradford follows through: he takes his own life, leaving notes titled Can the Dead Communicate with the Living? (03:07–03:45).
  • News story voiceover underscores the tragic event (03:35–03:48): "His room at 2500 Howard Street with the gas turned on...Nearby were found several typewritten pages..."
• Across town, Ruth waits in silence, hoping for a message that never comes (03:59–04:23).
  • Notable quote (Mary, 03:59): "There she was...with the lights off as I imagine it. Just waiting, listening."
• Newspapers report: "Dead spirit, dead spiritualist, silent." After 40 hours, Ruth confirms she heard nothing—Bradford’s experiment yields only silence (04:27–04:54).
  • Notable quote (Mary, 04:34): "It was almost like when somebody is lost at sea...they finally say, okay, we're declaring him dead."

5. The Ethics and Honesty of Seekers

• Discussion pivots to skepticism: Why didn’t Ruth simply pretend she’d received a message?
  • Both Mary and Jad reflect on the integrity and vulnerability of Ruth and Bradford as genuine "seekers" who weren’t trying to deceive, but truly wanted proof (05:04–05:20).
  • Notable quote (Mary, 05:13): "They weren’t trying to pull a hoax...they really just wanted to find proof."

6. So, Did Bradford Know?

• Jad queries Mary on her earlier framing—did Bradford “know” the answer after his death? Mary clarifies: "Dead people know. They just can't get the answer back to us." (05:33–05:40)
• Memorable moment (Mary, 05:40): "Billions of people know. They just can’t get the answer back to us."

7. Mary Roach’s Personal Perspective

• Jad closes with a personal question: After all her research, does Mary believe her parents are “somewhere?”
• Mary’s response is bittersweet and honest (06:05–06:51):
  • If forced to bet, she’d wager there is no afterlife, but dislikes admitting it. She envies her mother’s faith, noting that “the people who believe win. The skeptics lose.”
  • Notable quote (Mary, 06:21): "My mother absolutely had faith that when she died she was going to heaven. And even if she’s wrong, she doesn’t know she’s wrong. So she went through her whole life with a calmness and peace of mind that I’ll never have. The people who believe win. The skeptics lose."

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Memorable Quotes (with Timestamps and Attribution)

• "What happens after you die? I can name you forty-seven men who have tried to harness the rational horsepower of science to answer this most floaty question."
  — Jad Abumrad, 00:37

• "Spiritualism was a religion...predicated on this notion that there is no death—that when you die, you just go on to Summerland. A beautiful place beyond."
  — Mary Roach, 01:34

• "One person dies, crosses over to the afterlife, and then from the beyond that person would yell back, 'Hey, it worked! I'm here. There's an afterlife.'"
  — Mary Roach, 02:46

• "There she was...with the lights off as I imagine it. Just waiting, listening."
  — Mary Roach, 03:59

• "It was almost like when somebody is lost at sea...they finally say, okay, we're declaring him dead."
  — Mary Roach, 04:34

• "They weren’t trying to pull a hoax...they really just wanted to find proof."
  — Mary Roach, 05:13

• "Dead people know. They just can't get the answer back to us."
  — Mary Roach, 05:40

• "My mother absolutely had faith that when she died she was going to heaven. And even if she’s wrong, she doesn’t know she’s wrong. So she went through her whole life with a calmness and peace of mind that I’ll never have. The people who believe win. The skeptics lose."
  — Mary Roach, 06:21

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Notable Moments & Timestamps

• 00:34–01:08: Introduction to the quest for scientific proof of the afterlife.
• 01:26–01:55: Mary Roach’s background on Spiritualism and “Summerland.”
• 02:14–02:51: The plan: one dies, one waits for a message from the afterlife.
• 03:07–03:45: Bradford’s suicide to conduct the “experiment.”
• 04:23–04:54: Ruth Moran’s vigil, and the press’ pronouncement of silence.
• 05:04–05:20: Discussion of Ruth and Bradford’s sincerity.
• 05:33–05:40: Mary Roach on the irony of dead people “knowing.”
• 06:05–06:51: Mary Roach’s personal take on belief, skepticism, and peace of mind.

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Tone and Language

The episode blends curiosity with skepticism, empathy with dry wit. Jad is warm and fascinated, while Mary Roach is candid, playful, and empathetic—especially as she explores the emotional costs of living with or without faith in the afterlife.

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Conclusion

This Radiolab Short uses the poignant story of Bradford and Moran to reflect on our endless yearning for certainty about what happens after death—while showing, with gentle humility, that proof may remain forever out of reach. The conversation is a moving, bittersweet meditation on belief, skepticism, and human longing.

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For further reading:

• Mary Roach’s Spook: Science Tackles the Afterlife
• See Radiolab’s website for more on Mary Roach and related topics.

(All ad breaks, intros, and outros omitted.)

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Oh, wait, you're listening.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

All right. Okay. All right. You're listening to Radiolab, Radio lab shorts.

[A]

From WNY.

[C]

And NPR.

[B]

Number 12 proof. Okay, so I read an article in the New Scientist by author Mary Roach and it starts like this. What happens after you die? I can name you 47 men who've tried to harness the rational horsepower of science to answer this most floaty question. Some were physicians, some physicists, some psychologists. Two were Nobel Prize winners. Of them, only one to date has landed irrefutable proof. Man's name was Thomas Lynn Bradford.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And that is Mary Roach. Hi, how are you?

[C]

I'm fine. How are you, Jed?

[B]

I'm good. Mary is the author of several books with wonderfully succinct titles.

[C]

Spook, Stiff, Bog.

[B]

Those are three different books. The one we're talking about today is Spook.

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The subtitle is Science Tackles the Afterlife.

[B]

Which brings us to Mr. Bradford.

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Thomas Lynn Bradford was a spiritualist who lived in the early part of the 1900s.

[B]

A spiritualist is that Spiritualism was a.

[C]

Religion very popular around the turn of the last century that was predicated on this notion that there is no death, that when you die you just go on to Summerland. Summerland, A beautiful place, beyond.

[B]

The thing is, spiritualists like Thomas Lynn Bradford, actually especially Thomas Lynn Bradford, they didn't just have faith that Summerland was out there after death.

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They wanted proof, physical evidence that there is a beyond.

[B]

So here's what happened one day. When was this, by the way?

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This was 1921.

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One day in 1921, Thomas Lynn Bradford put out an ad.

[C]

Yes, he put an ad in a.

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Detroit newspaper which basically said, I would like to prove the existence of the afterlife. Anyone out there that can help?

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I'm looking for other like minded people to think about this. And this one woman contacted him, really.

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A Ruth Moran, who is apparently a psychic.

[C]

And the two of them sat down and they devised what they thought was an ironclad plan. One person dies, crosses over to the.

[B]

Afterlife, and then from the beyond that person would yell back, hey, it worked.

[C]

I'm here. There's an afterlife.

[B]

Meanwhile, the person who didn't die would be sitting in a room somewhere psychically listening to see if they could hear something.

[C]

Because if they could, then we'd have our proof, huh? In fact, he. I think it was that that evening Thomas Lynn Bradford in his rented room, he turned on the. The gas with the pilot off and asphyxiated himself. The New York Times reported this whole thing.

[D]

Detroit, February 6th. Thomas Lynn Bradford committed suicide last night. His. His room at 2500 Howard street with the gas turned on.

[C]

The landlord in his building found him the next day.

[D]

Nearby were found several typewritten pages on can the dead communicate with the living? Somewhere in Detroit is believed to be a girl who is waiting for him to answer this question.

[B]

The girl, of course, was Ruth Moran, the psychic. And there she was across town in her own small apartment with the lights off, as I imagine it. Just waiting, listening.

[C]

But she didn't hear anything from Thomas Lynn Bradford.

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Detroit, February 7th. Though more than 40 hours have elapsed, no message has come back from the spirit world to Mrs. Ruth Doran.

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There was a follow up story the next day. The headline said, dead spirit, Dead spiritualist, silent. It was almost like when somebody is lost at sea. They wait a certain amount of time and then they finally say, okay, we're declaring him dead.

[B]

Yeah, but you know what's weird is like this Ruth girl, right? Why wouldn't she just lie and say that she did hear Thomas Lynn Bradford?

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I know that's.

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I mean, I think it's very. It's very admirable to be honest like that.

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I think that people like Thomas Lynn Bradford and Ruth Moran, I just.

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They.

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They weren't trying to pull a hoax. They weren't charlatans. They really were just seekers. They really just wanted to find proof.

[B]

Huh. But you say, you. You said in that thing I read you set him up as being the guy who knows the guy who found proof. Were you just being colorful when you wrote that?

[C]

No, I mean the. Well, he knows in that he's dead now.

[B]

Oh, I see.

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Dead people know.

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So this isn't really like a knowing problem. It's a journalism problem.

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It's a reporting problem. Billions of people know. They just can't get the answer back to us. Huh.

[B]

Okay, that brings me to my last question. In your book, Spook and the dedications, you say, to my parents, wherever they are or aren't, at this point, after writing this book, are you willing to say that they are somewhere or that they aren't?

[C]

If I had to put my money on it, Seriously, if a great deal was at stake and I had to decide one way or the other, I would put my money on. They aren't anywhere but that's really depressing and I don't want to have to put my money on it.

[B]

Yeah.

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And I don't like to be the sort of person who even says that because, you know, my mother believed. My mother absolutely had faith that when she died she was going to heaven. And even if she's wrong, she doesn't know she's wrong. So she went through her whole life with a calmness and a peace of mind that I'll never have. The people who believe win. The skeptics lose.

[E]

Give me that old fashioned morning morphine Give me that old fashioned morphine Give me that old fashioned morphine that's good enough for me what was good enough for my grandpa?

[B]

Thanks to Mary Roach, author of the book Spook and many others. More about her on our website. Radiolab is supported by the Sloan foundation, the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and the National Science Foundation. Me.

[E]

Because the world is almost done.

[F]

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