Oliver Sipple

Summary

Radiolab – “Oliver Sipple” (June 5, 2026) Podcast Summary with Timestamps

Main Theme / Purpose This episode of Radiolab, hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser (with significant contributions from Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich), re-examines the story of Oliver Sipple—the man who, in 1975, stopped the assassination of President Gerald Ford. It’s not just a historical retelling; the episode explores the devastating effects of Sipple’s sudden fame as a “hero”—and specifically, the unwanted outing of his sexuality that followed. The show raises profound questions about privacy, journalistic responsibility, gay identity and activism in 1970s America, and the personal cost of public acts.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Assassination Attempt – Setting the Stage

• [00:30] Latif introduces the story: An audacious crime, nearly successful, that would have changed the world—if not for “one random guy.”
• [01:55–03:15] Interview with Sarah Jane Moore, the would-be assassin. She recounts her morning and how, pressed into a crowd to see President Ford, she ended up front-and-center.
• [05:05–05:45] Moore describes pulling a .38 revolver from her purse, cocking it, and aiming for Ford. Before a second shot, a “big strong, blonde guy” (Oliver Sipple) intervenes.
• [06:15–06:34] Moore is arrested; Ford is safe; Moore ultimately serves 32 years in prison.

2. Who Was Oliver Sipple?

• [07:04–08:10] Sipple is introduced: Vietnam veteran, ex-Marine, muscular, “all-American...a little bit James Dean and Marlon Brando had a baby” (Jad, 08:01).
• [08:47] Sipple happened to be there by chance—just wandering by, then reacting instinctively to the gun.
• [10:09–10:22] Despite his “coward” claim (“I’m no hero or nothing.” – Sipple), Sipple is celebrated as a savior and the press descends.
• [10:54–11:00] Sipple thinks the attention will fade, but “it all sort of rippled out of control.”

3. The Outing – Context and Consequences

• [11:26–12:40] The era’s gay scene in San Francisco is described—a city of “reinvention,” but most people, like Sipple, live double lives (out locally, not to family).
• [13:06–13:12] Sipple never told his family he was gay.
• [14:02–15:04] Friendship with Harvey Milk, who espoused the necessity of coming out (“Every gay person must come out...You will feel so much better.” – Milk, 16:21).
• [17:03–18:41] After Sipple’s act gains national attention, Harvey Milk calls columnist Herb Caen and outs Sipple—hoping to counter negative gay stereotypes (“For once we can show that gays do heroic things. Not just all that caca about molesting children and hanging out in bathrooms.” – Milk, 18:19).

4. Media Frenzy and Family Fallout

• [19:33–20:55] Herb Caen’s column outs Sipple; reporters converge. Sipple does not want his sexuality publicized. ("No, I just don’t want to change my mind on that." – Sipple, 25:29)
• [24:05–24:42] Sipple is distressed to learn police inquiries are now going to the Sex Crimes and Missing Persons unit—reflecting society’s deep suspicion of gays.
• [34:18–35:04] Sipple calls a press conference, explaining what’s at stake for him: “My mother told me today she could not walk out her front door or go to church because of the press stories concerning my sexual orientation...”

Notable Quotes:

• "My sexual orientation has nothing at all to do with saving the President’s life, just as the color of my eyes or my race has nothing to do with what happened..." (Sipple, press conference, 32:55)
• "I never anticipated such interference with my family’s relationship..." (Sipple, 34:49)
• “She (his mother) said to him: ‘I don’t want to speak to you ever again’ ...and hung up.” (Sipple's lawyer, 34:57)
• Sipple’s brother reports to his father: “...the next person that even said he had a son named Oliver, he was going to literally break their damn neck.” (37:16)

5. The Legal Battle – Privacy vs. Press

• [42:30–45:27] Sipple sues the newspapers for invasion of privacy ($15 million claim). The papers argue Sipple was already openly gay in San Francisco; privacy not violated.
• [45:53–47:09] Papers argue Sipple was a “public figure” by virtue of intervening and that the public interest (a heroic gay man; government reaction) outweighed his privacy.
• [47:56–48:46] The court sides with the press: “...publications were not motivated by morbid and sensational prying...but by legitimate political concerns...to dispel the false public opinion that gays were timid, weak, and unheroic figures...”
• [49:59–50:37] Discussion of why journalists get to decide newsworthiness; acknowledgment the system is imperfect but protected by tradition and the First Amendment.

Key Segment:

• Is Sipple's suffering justifiable in the name of public good?
  • “It feels like he was sacrificed from all sides, actually.” (Jad, 50:58)
  • “There’s this one man in the middle, and then all these forces around him... And then in the middle of it, there’s this guy that just is trampled by all of them.” (Latif, 51:02)

6. Aftermath and Final Years

• [52:15–53:35] Sipple loses his case; by now, even some of the gay community turns on him, thinking he’s trying to “go back in the closet.”
• [53:49–60:23] Wayne Friday, Sipple’s friend, describes Sipple’s descent: alcoholism, loneliness, “He was just a fucking alcoholic...he was just down to nothing...The whole thing worked him, the public and the fact that everyone knew he was a faggot...it was too much for him to handle.”
• [60:00] Sipple dies alone in his apartment in 1989 at age 47. His funeral is sparsely attended—“more media than anything else.”

Memorable Moments & Emotional High Points

• [32:55] Sipple’s trembling press conference, standing by the right to privacy and mourning his lost family.
• [39:55–41:23] Reading of Sipple’s letter to Gerald Ford, begging for help in reconciling with his family.
  • “Mr. President, it is a very hard thing to have your mother and family not want to have any contact with you.”
• [60:23] The final, poignant replay of Sipple’s statement on human worth, reinforcing the episode’s core message.

Thought-Provoking Discussions

• The collision between the freedom of the press and the right to privacy.
• How the LGBT rights movement felt justified in outing Sipple as a means to overturn harmful stereotypes—at immense personal cost.
• The legal and ethical boundaries for journalists—should an individual’s wish for privacy ever outweigh collective “public interest”?

Section Timestamps

• Assassination attempt retold: [00:30]–[06:34]
• Sipple’s life/background/emergence as hero: [07:04]–[13:12]
• Harvey Milk, outing, and gay liberation context: [14:02]–[18:41]
• Media fallout, press conference, and family reaction: [19:33]–[39:55]
• Legal battle and privacy debate: [42:04]–[51:16]
• Sipple’s isolation and death: [52:15]–[60:23]
• Updates and credits: [63:33]–[65:35]

Selected Quotes with Attribution & Timestamps

• "This is not an interview about what was driving me...This is an interview about Mr. Sipple." – Sarah Jane Moore [06:54]
• "I just don’t want to change my mind on that." – Oliver Sipple, declining to be outed in national media [25:29]
• “My sexual orientation has nothing at all to do with saving the President's life.” – Oliver Sipple, press conference [32:55]
• "I don't want to speak to you ever again." – Sipple's mother (as recounted by his lawyer) [34:57]
• "...the next person that even said he had a son named Oliver, he was going to literally break their damn neck." – Sipple’s father (via George Sipple Jr.) [37:16]
• “If they (the press) can make that argument, they just put it out there.” – Jad Abumrad, on journalistic ethics [48:46]
• "It feels like he was sacrificed from all sides, actually." – Jad Abumrad [50:58]
• "He was just down to nothing...this thing happened and it overcame him." – Wayne Friday (read by actor) [55:11]

Conclusion Radiolab’s “Oliver Sipple” offers a haunting, nuanced journey through one of America’s lesser-known but deeply significant personal tragedies—one where a simple act of heroism was transformed, by both the politics and prejudices of the era, into a lifelong sentence of notoriety and loss. Through rich archival sound, layered interviews, and pointed debate, the episode asks: Who gets to decide what’s news—and at what cost to the ordinary, complicated lives of real people?

Recommended for anyone interested in queer history, journalism ethics, civil rights, or the difficult intersection of individual privacy and the greater good.

Transcript

[Oliver Sipple]

Pop, pop, pop.

[Radiolab Announcer]

That is the sound of popcorn popping. To announce the big news that Radiolab is headed to the Tribeca Festival podcast stage for a special live show in New York City. We will be headlining the podcast program with this one night only live show at the festival's 25th anniversary. Come on out on June 9 at 6pm for a show that will literally give you chills. Tickets are available [e-mail] that's tribecafilm.com audio.

[Latif Nasser]

Hey, it's Latif. Today we have a story about someone attempting a crime so big and so brazen that if they had pulled it off, it would no doubt have changed the world. But they didn't pull it off because one random guy stopped it. And instead of changing the whole world, it. It just changed the world for this one guy. The story took place in the 1970s. We originally reported it back in 2017. But people keep attempting this same crime as of this taping, literally twice in the last month. I'm being vague on purpose just so I don't spoil the surprise, but it'll all make sense in a second. Here we go.

[LA Times Reporter Darrell Lemke]

Wait.

[Latif Nasser]

You're listening.

[Oliver Sipple]

All right.

[Oliver Sipple's Lawyer]

Okay.

[Narrator/Voice Actor]

All right.

[Audience/Background Voices]

You're listening to radiolab.

[Latif Nasser]

Radiolab from W.M.

[Daniel Lutzer]

weiss.

[Latif Nasser]

Rewind.

[Jad Abumrad]

Just a quick note. This story contains some profanities here and there. Like here and there. A couple. So just know that before we get going. Hey, I'm Jad Abumrad.

[Robert Krulwich]

I'm Robert Krulwich.

[Jad Abumrad]

This is Radiolab.

[Robert Krulwich]

And today we are going to start.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay, so let's start with our producer, Latif Nasser.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay, well, let's just. Let's just go back to San Francisco on a particular day, at a particular

[Latif Nasser]

time and a particular woman.

[Sarah Jane Moore]

Hello.

[Latif Nasser]

Hi, is this Sarah Jane?

[Sarah Jane Moore]

Yes, it is.

[Latif Nasser]

Woman named Sarah Jane Moore. Sarah Jane. Okay, so this is San Francisco. The particular date was September 22nd. The particular time, 1975. It's a Monday morning. It was a nice day.

[Sarah Jane Moore]

Oh, yeah. I don't remember anything different, so I assume it was a nice day.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay, all right, sure, sure.

[Sarah Jane Moore]

I was kind of, you know, in my own head.

[Latif Nasser]

I remember it was Sarah Jane. On this Monday morning, she wakes up early, drops her 9 year old off at school, runs a few errands, then she drives downtown to this big fancy hotel. What was the name of the hotel?

[Sarah Jane Moore]

I think it's the St. Francis, isn't it? I'm 87 years old. Don't expect me to remember little details like that.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay, all right, fair enough.

[Oliver Sipple's Lawyer]

Yeah.

[Sarah Jane Moore]

But at any Rate, you know, I parked in the parking garage across. Right across from the hotel is a park, but there's a parking garage underneath. Walked over and walked across the street. There were sidewalks on both sides of the street. There were people on both sidewalks.

[Latif Nasser]

She joins the crowd across the street from the hotel was very crowded, a couple thousand people. It's like a big scene.

[Sarah Jane Moore]

And there was a barrier, a rope barrier, right, keeping us back on the sidewalk. And my plan had always been to be back in the Crown, you know, and I was dressed like every other middle aged woman that was there.

[Latif Nasser]

What were you. Do you remember what you were wearing? I mean, I'm sure there's.

[Sarah Jane Moore]

Oh, there are pictures of it, yes. I was wearing. I was wearing slacks. That was. That was at the beginning of when it was natural for women to wear slacks. I had a coat on and I was carrying a purse. And I went back into the middle of the crowd as I had planned to do anyway. I felt a man come up against me and socialized as I was in that day and time, I spun around to Slappy's face.

[Latif Nasser]

She sees this guy there, big strong guy, blonde hair.

[Sarah Jane Moore]

Looked at him and realized that it was crowd pressure, that he had not done anything out of ordinary. So I turned back around and went on about my business. I was then pushed up the crowd pressure was such I tried to stay back in the crowd, but I got pushed up almost onto the ropes in the front, right up on the curb of the sidewalk where I had not planned to be. And he apparently was still right behind me. So maybe he was pushed out by the crowd also.

[Latif Nasser]

And so Sarah Jane is just crammed into this crowd and she's just standing there. Yes. And were you nervous?

[Sarah Jane Moore]

Oh, no. You set out to do something. And I was just going about doing what I had set out to do.

[Latif Nasser]

So she waits and she waits and an hour goes by, and 2 and 3. And then finally out of the hotel comes none other than the President of the United States, Gerald Ford. And he has police and Secret Service and they're all coming, they're walking out of the hotel to get in his

[Sarah Jane Moore]

car, which was parked there on the street.

[Latif Nasser]

But he sees the crowd, Sarah Jane actually says. He looks directly at her and he waves. He waves to the crowd and everyone starts applauding and cheering. Now, right at that moment, Sarah Jane reaches her right hand into her purse

[Sarah Jane Moore]

and pulled the gun out of my purse.

[Latif Nasser]

A.38 caliber revolver. She cocks it and then she takes aim right at Gerald Ford's head. And then.

[Audience/Background Voices]

My God.

[Narrator/Voice Actor]

My God. There's been a shot, but.

[Sarah Jane Moore]

A shot, but Mr. Ford did not fall.

[Audience/Background Voices]

We're being pushed back by the police.

[Latif Nasser]

The bullet flies a few feet to the right of Ford, chips the wall behind him. Ford freezes in place.

[Sarah Jane Moore]

Sarah Jane never planned to take a second shot.

[Latif Nasser]

Now she's just still standing there with

[Sarah Jane Moore]

my hand still in the air, holding

[Latif Nasser]

the gun, looking over the smoking barrel of the gun. And she's got enough time if she wants it. But before she can take that second shot, the blonde man behind her lunges at her, grabs her gun arm, pulls it down and deflects it for just that crucial second that these police officers nearby need to get to her. They tackle her, they take her gun, and they pin her to the ground.

[Sarah Jane Moore]

So I couldn't move.

[Latif Nasser]

And by that point, the Secret Service has whisked off the President into the limousine.

[Sarah Jane Moore]

And I was immediately picked up and

[Latif Nasser]

carried across the street into the hotel, arrested, and eventually she went to prison. And she served 32 years in prison. And then after that, was released on parole. And then we talked to her.

[Jad Abumrad]

I was not prepared to be told a first person narrative from the perspective of someone who's about to assassinate the President. That was not what I was expecting.

[Latif Nasser]

I was hoping that.

[Robert Krulwich]

Wait, can you explain, though, why it is she decided to shoot the guy?

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah, why did she shoot?

[Latif Nasser]

Well, well, Sarah Janes never fully explained that. And in fact, when I asked her,

[Sarah Jane Moore]

well, this is not.

[Latif Nasser]

She was like, I'm not going there.

[Sarah Jane Moore]

This is not an interview about what was driving me or about what I did or why I did it. This is an interview about Mr. Sipple.

[Robert Krulwich]

Sipple?

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah, Oliver Sipple. He's the random blonde guy who just happened to be standing next to Sarah Jane Moore that day. The guy who grabbed her arm and saved the President's life.

[Sarah Jane Moore]

And he paid dearly for that.

[Latif Nasser]

I actually called up Sarah Jane and had her tell that whole story because I was actually interested in what happened to Oliver Sipple after that.

[Sarah Jane Moore]

Because had he not reached out and put his hand on my arm, none of this would have happened to him.

[Jad Abumrad]

Wait, what happened to him?

[Latif Nasser]

So Oliver Sybil actually died in 1989. But before we get to the story, I just want to give you a picture of the guy. So just Google search Oliver Sipple, Ford or something.

[Jad Abumrad]

Wait. Okay, wait. I see the picture.

[Latif Nasser]

See, look at that. He's a muscular guy, kind of blonde hair. He's a handsome guy.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah, he's a little bit James Dean and Marlon Brando had a baby Kind of.

[Latif Nasser]

He feels like an all American. He feels all American. There's something all American about him.

[George Sipple Jr.]

Thank you.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah. Yeah. We're bringing in another all American for this story.

[Daniel Lutzer]

Daniel Lutzer, an editor at Oxford University Press. And a few years ago, it was like, probably more than five years ago, I wrote an article about Oliver Sipple.

[Latif Nasser]

But anyway, to get back on track.

[Daniel Lutzer]

September 22, 1975.

[Latif Nasser]

Sarah Jane Moore fires that shot. Oliver Sipple grabs her arm.

[Daniel Lutzer]

The police wrestle Moore to the ground.

[Latif Nasser]

And then the police actually grab Oliver, too, pull him inside the hotel to

[Daniel Lutzer]

question him, because there's initially some confusion about what he was doing there, and some thought that he might have been a suspect.

[Latif Nasser]

And so he's in this hotel trying to light a cigarette, but he just couldn't do it because he was shaking so hard. Turns out Oliver had served two very rough tours in Vietnam.

[Daniel Lutzer]

Loud noises would. Would make him very unhappy. I think this is the sort of thing we might call post traumatic stress disorder now.

[Latif Nasser]

But when eventually Oliver started to calm down, the Secret Service were like, what are you even doing here?

[Daniel Lutzer]

It was kind of hard for him to answer because it's like he didn't even really know. It was just like, I don't know.

[Latif Nasser]

I was taking a walk, and I bumped into this huge crowd of people asked what was going on.

[Daniel Lutzer]

And people like, oh, like, Gerald Ford is going to be here. You know, the president is going to be here.

[Latif Nasser]

So he said he thought I might as well see him. And then he was standing there for a couple hours until he saw a

[Daniel Lutzer]

flash of metal, realized it was a

[Latif Nasser]

gun, reacted quickly, instinctively. And then you guys all pulled me in here.

[Daniel Lutzer]

That's how I came to be here.

[Latif Nasser]

So he's questioned for three hours. He goes home, home to his fourth floor. Walk up, and there's a reporter there waiting for him. But he wants to sort of be left alone. And he told this reporter, quote, I'm a coward. I don't know why I did it. It was the thing to do at the time. And then even after that, he just keeps getting phone calls from reporters. And some of them learned that he was a Marine. And so they would ask him questions like, oh, was it your training? Is that why you did this heroic thing?

[Daniel Lutzer]

But he said, like, oh, listen, don't mention any of that stuff about the Marines. Let's keep that under wraps.

[Latif Nasser]

Quote, I'm no hero or nothing.

[News Reporter]

But the next day, yesterday in San Francisco, a shot fired.

[Latif Nasser]

Oliver's story shot across the country.

[News Reporter]

The aim deflected by an Ex Marine, a Vietnam veteran named Oliver Sipple.

[Latif Nasser]

His name's on television.

[News Reporter]

That Marine Oliver Sipple on the front

[Latif Nasser]

page of newspapers where there's headlines like, ex Marine Deflects Weapon as woman shoots. That's the LA Times Chicago Tribune. Hero tells how he Deflected woman's arm. And so, despite his best efforts, Oliver becomes a national hero for a day.

[Daniel Lutzer]

And it appears that he sort of thought that would be it.

[Latif Nasser]

Maybe his friends would give him a pat on the back, buy him a couple rounds.

[Daniel Lutzer]

And then, you know, over the next couple days, it all sort of like,

[Latif Nasser]

rippled out of control, because that very same day that Oliver was being painted as a hero, this guy named Herb

[Daniel Lutzer]

Kane, the longtime San Francisco columnist, walked

[Latif Nasser]

into his office and on his answering machine were two messages saying, hey, that guy Oliver Sipple, the hero who saved

[Daniel Lutzer]

the President's life is gay.

[Oliver Sipple]

Huh?

[Jad Abumrad]

Was he. Was he out?

[Latif Nasser]

Well, he was sort of out and sort of not.

[Robert Krulwich]

What does that mean?

[Latif Nasser]

Well, to explain, you gotta understand this particular time and place. So let's just, you know, take a magic carpet ride, close your eyes, and let the sound take you away.

[News Reporter]

A city has emerged where homosexuality is not only tolerated, but thrives.

[Latif Nasser]

San Francisco, sometimes labeled with the sly caption Queen City of the West. So San Francisco, it's a great day.

[Ken Maley]

It's a gay day. Happy day, happy day.

[Latif Nasser]

Was one of the first cities in America to have a gay pride parade. And in the 70s, it's a wonderful city, this city.

[Audience/Background Voices]

Boys go to bed with boys, and girls go to bed with girls.

[Latif Nasser]

For gay people, San Francisco was like this shelter from the storm.

[Harvey Milk]

Many of us were immigrants from somewhere. This is Ken Maley, longtime San Francisco

[Latif Nasser]

resident and gay activist, who at the age of 19, came to San Francisco

[Harvey Milk]

from Kansas, escaped from Kansas because what the west offered was the ethereal promise, if you will, of reinvention. You could cross a line in which your past stayed behind you.

[Latif Nasser]

It was a place where you could be out, but to the people you left behind, you could still be in. So, so and so for Oliver, you

[Daniel Lutzer]

know, he came from Michigan from a working class family. He had a lot of brothers and sisters. I think he was one of eight children.

[Latif Nasser]

And so after the war, when he got to San Francisco, he actually started going by the name Billy.

[Daniel Lutzer]

Billy. Billy Sipple. And he was perfectly open about his sexual orientation and would tell anybody who that he was a gay man. But, you know, he never told his family.

[Latif Nasser]

And so Oliver lived like a lot of gay people at the time. This double life.

[Daniel Lutzer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

And do we know that this is the reason why Sibyl came to San Francisco? Or was there a different reason?

[Daniel Lutzer]

It may have just been because Harvey Milk was there.

[Latif Nasser]

The Harvey Milk, you know, famous gay activist, San Francisco politician.

[Daniel Lutzer]

He was friends with Harvey Milk, a

[Harvey Milk]

New Yorker, an immigrant from New York.

[Latif Nasser]

Turns out Oliver had actually met Harvey a decade earlier in New York. And I just want to mention this because I think it's so cool. At different points in time, they actually dated the same guy who was the

[Daniel Lutzer]

inspiration for Sugar Plum Fairy.

[Latif Nasser]

Sugar Plum Fairy came and hit the streets in Lou Reed's Walk on the Wild side looking for soul food and

[Narrator/Voice Actor]

a place to eat.

[Latif Nasser]

It's just a fun fact. Just a fun fact. That's it. But Oliver and Harvey, they were pretty good friends. They corresponded, stayed in touch when they lived in different places in the country. Actually, Harvey even loaned Oliver money sometimes because Oliver didn't have a job. He, you know, collected disability from his time in the Marines.

[Harvey Milk]

But anyway, by the beginning of the

[Latif Nasser]

70s, when Oliver got to San Francisco, reconnected with his old friend.

[Harvey Milk]

Harvey was, shall we say, evolving into a huge figure there, a gay public figure.

[Latif Nasser]

Ken was actually friends with Harvey, worked on one of his campaigns.

[Harvey Milk]

But this. I'm sorry.

[Latif Nasser]

No, no, no. And I'm just thinking, like, one of the things we were talking about on the phone was about sort of the kind of two different schools or two different.

[Harvey Milk]

I was talking about the segue to that.

[Latif Nasser]

Oh, perfect.

[Oliver Sipple]

Okay.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah, yeah, go for it.

[Harvey Milk]

This older. Other. I would say older, but other generation of gay, mostly men, was that they were content to go to tea with the mayor or public official of some kind.

[Latif Nasser]

They would show up to, like, a

[Harvey Milk]

rally wearing jackets and ties and, like,

[Latif Nasser]

ask for their rights politely.

[Harvey Milk]

They really weren't, shall we say, activists.

[Latif Nasser]

Because, according to Ken, the activism came when, in the late 60s, early 70s, you had young gay men and women

[Harvey Milk]

who came out of the Vietnam War protests into the world.

[Latif Nasser]

Took a look around.

[Audience/Background Voices]

The CBS News survey shows that two

[Latif Nasser]

out of three Americans look upon homosexuals

[Audience/Background Voices]

with disgust, discomfort, or fear.

[Harvey Milk]

The police are still raiding bars, what

[Audience/Background Voices]

they consider discrimination in jobs and housing.

[Harvey Milk]

People are still getting beaten.

[Victim of Anti-Gay Violence]

One of whom said, queer, faggot, we're

[Audience/Background Voices]

gonna beat the shit out of you.

[Victim of Anti-Gay Violence]

Something to that effect.

[Harvey Milk]

We're gonna kill you both violently and non. Violently.

[Victim of Anti-Gay Violence]

Got up in the middle of the street. They knocked me down and started beating me with their hands and their feet. Their elbows, tried to muffle my screams.

[Harvey Milk]

And after a while, a body of people get to a point where they just will not take oppression anymore.

[Latif Nasser]

So in came the activists like Harvey Ponytail, mustache.

[Harvey Milk]

He was a banker turned hippie.

[Ken Maley]

You know you're lying, you know you're changing the statements around.

[Harvey Milk]

He was very outspoken.

[Ken Maley]

I question what is your real motive behind it. Very militant and stop this phony issue that you know is a phony issue.

[Harvey Milk]

And to Harvey, we are saying that

[Ken Maley]

a gay person should have the right

[Harvey Milk]

to say gay people were living in a half life opportunity, I am gay.

[Ken Maley]

That it is a part of society, period.

[Harvey Milk]

Not being able to be who they were.

[Ken Maley]

Every gay person must come out. As difficult as it is. You must tell your immediate family, you must tell your relatives, you must tell your friends, if indeed they are your friends. You must tell your neighbors. You must tell the people you work with. You must tell the people in the stores you shop in. And once, once you do, you will feel so much better.

[Daniel Lutzer]

And so cut back to September 22, 1975.

[Latif Nasser]

In the blink of an eye, Oliver Sybil becomes this hero. And that same night, Oliver's friend Harvey hears about all this news and kind of senses, wait, maybe there's an opportunity here. So he picks up the phone and he calls the columnist, Herb Kane, a very, very well known, well loved gossip columnist. And Kane isn't there. So Milk leaves a message on his answering machine and he basically says, look, I'm a friend of Oliver Sipple's. I've known him for years. Oliver Sipple worked on my campaign for supervisor. So basically, without Sipple's consent, Harvey outed him. Milk outed him.

[Robert Krulwich]

But what was Harvey Milk thinking? That he would do this?

[Audience/Background Voices]

Well, for Harvey, I think the stereotypes,

[Ken Maley]

the lies, the innuendos of gay people

[Harvey Milk]

as limp wristed and drag queens and

[Ken Maley]

stuff, the distortions, all gay people are child molesters.

[Harvey Milk]

Well, here's a true gay hero.

[Latif Nasser]

A square jawed, heroic Marine who seemed

[Daniel Lutzer]

to be a sort of like regular, like red blooded American.

[Latif Nasser]

And so Harvey said, and this was written down by his biographer, who I'm quoting, it's too good an opportunity. For once we can show that gays do heroic things. Not just all that caca about molesting children and hanging out in bathrooms,

[Robert Krulwich]

wasn't there somebody said, no, no, no, no, you gotta ask the guy for. You can't just do that.

[Harvey Milk]

Harvey just did it.

[Narrator/Voice Actor]

Really.

[Harvey Milk]

Yeah, he just did it.

[Latif Nasser]

So Cain. The next morning, Cain arrives at his office. He listens to the message and Cain tries to call Sipple, but he can't reach him. But there was another guy who was a gay Activist. His name was the Reverend Ray Broshiers. He was the head of what's called, what was called the Lavender Panthers. And he also independently called Herb Kane to say, oh, that guy Oliver Sipple everyone's talking about on the news. Yay. So he got two independent sources, both of people who said that they were friends with Sipple and that he was gay. And for Cain, I think this was juicy. This was a juicy thing.

[Daniel Lutzer]

And he was this. Let me just like go back and get this.

[Latif Nasser]

So two days after the assassination attempt, Cain's column comes out.

[Daniel Lutzer]

And the way that he wrote it up, this is the precise paragraph. One of the heroes of the day, Oliver Billy Sipple, the ex Marine who grabbed Sarah Jane Moore's arm just as her gun was fired and thereby may have saved the President's life, was the center of midnight attention at the Red Lantern, a Golden Gate Avenue bar he favors. Reverend Ray Brochears, head of Helping Hand center, and gay politico Harvey Milk, who claim to be among Sipple's close friends, describe themselves as proud. Maybe this will help break the stereotype.

[Latif Nasser]

And then that day, this guy named

[Darryl Lemke]

Darrell Lembke, Lemke L E M B

[Latif Nasser]

K E, picks up his issue of the Chronicle, sees Herb Kane's column, read

[Darryl Lemke]

it, and I reported it to the

[Latif Nasser]

office, the office of the Los Angeles Times.

[Darryl Lemke]

I was a reporter for the LA Times in San Francisco. And so my office told me, get an interview with Oliver Sippel.

[Latif Nasser]

But really quickly, before we get there, we actually managed to find the recording of this very specific interview in the LA Times collection at the Huntington Library in Los Angeles. And I think the reason they hung onto it was because it was kind of controversial. So the night that Cain's article comes out, Darryl goes to Oliver's house, Oliver's there.

[Darryl Lemke]

Two reporters from the Sentinel were there also.

[Audience/Background Voices]

Who's the Sentinel?

[Latif Nasser]

That right there is Darrell.

[LA Times Reporter Darrell Lemke]

It's a gay newspaper.

[Audience/Background Voices]

Gay newspaper.

[Latif Nasser]

Uh huh.

[LA Times Reporter Darrell Lemke]

Wanna be put on our mailing list?

[Oliver Sipple]

Sure.

[Latif Nasser]

So they're all sitting in Oliver's living room and what the reporters are all wondering is, have you heard from the President?

[Darryl Lemke]

The President hadn't bothered to thank him at that point.

[LA Times Reporter Darrell Lemke]

The President can award what they call medals of freedom to people for outstanding acts. He offered, you know, to have you go out back to the White House. Would you go?

[Oliver Sipple]

Certainly.

[LA Times Reporter Darrell Lemke]

Would you like to meet him?

[Oliver Sipple]

Well, yeah, I stood in line for three hours to see him. Of course I'd like to meet him.

[Latif Nasser]

And that voice right there, that's Oliver.

[Audience/Background Voices]

He didn't have Time to meet you at that occasion. Have you heard from the mayor?

[Oliver Sipple]

No, I've heard from nobody. No, I've heard only from the press and reporters and reporters and the press.

[Audience/Background Voices]

And that's, of course, you have been hard to get a hold of. First of all, you really have to dig. But then I'm sure the mayor could find you. He has access to police records that know where you are.

[LA Times Reporter Darrell Lemke]

Okay. Can we go on background?

[Audience/Background Voices]

Yeah.

[LA Times Reporter Darrell Lemke]

Okay. For some reason, San Francisco Police Department has now referred any inquiries about you to the sex crimes and missing persons detail. That's something I think you should know.

[Latif Nasser]

Something Oliver should know. Because this is. Again, this is at a time when the assumption was that all gay men were just pedophiles, perverts.

[LA Times Reporter Darrell Lemke]

When I said background. This is information that cannot be printed.

[Audience/Background Voices]

What? Can I call.

[Latif Nasser]

Daryl actually asks if he can call somebody and ask about it.

[Oliver Sipple]

Yeah. Would you do that right now? Yeah.

[Audience/Background Voices]

No, I don't want to.

[LA Times Reporter Darrell Lemke]

Well, you won't.

[Oliver Sipple]

You damn right.

[LA Times Reporter Darrell Lemke]

They are not giving any reasons as to why. The number is 55313.

[Audience/Background Voices]

361. Who is the guy to talk to?

[LA Times Reporter Darrell Lemke]

Talk to your Sullivan or Patrick.

[Latif Nasser]

I found out Daryl calls local authorities, but he can't get a hold of anyone.

[Audience/Background Voices]

He said to call back around 1.

[LA Times Reporter Darrell Lemke]

They have said nothing to you about that?

[Audience/Background Voices]

Do you have any sex crimes on your record?

[Oliver Sipple]

I've never had a sex event in my entire. I've never been arrested, my. Except for being drunk a couple times, but I don't. There's no Marine in the world. Hasn't been dropped a couple.

[LA Times Reporter Darrell Lemke]

Would you like us to check that out further to see if there's more they're giving you?

[Latif Nasser]

And then the tape recorder goes off, comes back on.

[Oliver Sipple]

Well, who do I call with some authority with the police department?

[Latif Nasser]

And now Oliver's on the phone with the police department.

[Oliver Sipple]

Yeah, this is Detective Allen. Yeah, well, my name is Oliver Sipple and I'd like to know why I've been turned over to your department. Sex Crimes and Missing Persons. This is May. Yes, that's correct, sir. Yes, sir. I'd like some information. A bunch of press came over. Well, not a bunch. Just three people from the press came over this afternoon and they said they were trying to get some information about me in the police department. And I was turned over to Sex and Crimes Acts. What the hell is all that about?

[Audience/Background Voices]

Oh, I see.

[Oliver Sipple]

Well, Jesus God. I mean, I said, what the hell is going on? Okay, guy, I tried to call the mayor's office just now. And I tried to call the chief of police office just now, and I thought, what the Sam hell is going on? Okay, thanks a lot, guy. Yeah, just the officer. One of the officers that was involved with the assassination or assassination attempt is in that department. That's all. That's why it's being turned over. Does that make any sense to you? You got me very shook up, young man. I was just about to go downtown and whip some ass somewhere.

[LA Times Reporter Darrell Lemke]

We find out anything more about it, I'll let you know.

[Latif Nasser]

Now, the reason this tape is so controversial is because according to Oliver, before the interview began, before the, you know, recorder started rolling, he had said to the reporters from the Sentinel, okay, I'm going to talk to you guys about my sexuality. But then he had said to Darryl, I don't want you to write anything about that. I don't. I don't want that in a national paper. Darryl says he doesn't remember that. But then right here in this interview, this thing happens where Darryl says, I'll

[Audience/Background Voices]

make one more try on the gay thing.

[Latif Nasser]

I'll make one more try on the gay thing.

[Audience/Background Voices]

You don't. You don't want to change your mind on that?

[Latif Nasser]

You don't want to change your mind on that?

[Oliver Sipple]

No, I just don't want to change my mind on that.

[LA Times Reporter Darrell Lemke]

May we quote you as saying homosexuality has nothing to do with this?

[Oliver Sipple]

You can quote me as saying that if I were homosexual or I was not, you can quote me on that. It doesn't make me any less of a man than what I am.

[LA Times Reporter Darrell Lemke]

Okay?

[Oliver Sipple]

But I think that it has nothing to do with the actor or himself. So I don't think it should be pushed any further than that.

[Latif Nasser]

And eventually, okay, interview ends. And Darryl says that when he left that interview, he felt like when it came to Oliver's sexuality, he didn't want to be quoted. That was it. Like, just don't quote me on it.

[Darryl Lemke]

But still, I was trying to report from all sides about it. The big side for me was that he was a hero. And the President of the United States was very slow on the take in thanking him for saving his life.

[Latif Nasser]

And Darrell thought that all of her sexuality, the fact that he was gay, might have something to do with that. Because just seven months earlier, on March

[News Reporter]

6, Sergeant Leonard Matlovich disclosed to a supervising officer at Langley Air Force Force Base in Virginia that he was a homosexual and wanted to stay in the Air Force.

[Latif Nasser]

This Air Force sergeant named Leonard Matlovich, who had the Purple Heart, had the Bronze Star, he comes out that he's gay and he's kicked out of the Air Force.

[Victim of Anti-Gay Violence]

In conversations here, people say that, you know, we're discharging this queer, that queer, throwing them out of the Air Force on the inside, I just burn up with, you know, just, am I a coward here? And I'm just going to stand here and never really coming up to protection of my fellow minority group and just keeping quiet. My conscience just wouldn't let me do it anymore. I had to come forward and say, no more, America.

[Latif Nasser]

And now you've got this former Marine saved the President's life. And it's two days later he still hasn't heard from the President.

[Darryl Lemke]

So that's when I knew.

[Latif Nasser]

So for Darryl, even though Oliver had said, don't make this about my sexuality,

[Darryl Lemke]

I still thought it was a national story. And it was pretty hard to ignore it after Herb Kane had started the ball rolling.

[Latif Nasser]

So that night after the interview, Darryl calls in his story to the LA Times office and he uses this phrase. He says that Oliver is a former Marine who was, quote, a prominent figure in the gay community.

[Darryl Lemke]

Put it down a ways in the story, but the rewrite guy put it in the lead, really, and made it the big thing.

[Latif Nasser]

And so three days after the assassination attempt, the LA Times runs the story with the headline, no Call from President Hero in Ford Shooting Active Among SF Gays.

[Darryl Lemke]

And the LA Times got a news service.

[Latif Nasser]

And so Daryl's story, it goes. I mean, it goes everywhere.

[News Reporter]

Another strange twist to the story.

[Latif Nasser]

Headlines are like, gay Vet or Homosexual Hero.

[News Reporter]

It's been reported that the ex Marine who deflected Mrs. Moore's shot on Monday is well known in San Francisco's gay activist circles.

[Latif Nasser]

And so it was not just running in Los Angeles, it's also running in Chicago, it's running in Dallas, it's running in Indianapolis, and it's running, you know, of all places, in Oliver Sippel's hometown in Detroit.

[Robert Krulwich]

I guess what I'm wondering is if you have a guy who says, please don't talk about this. This has nothing to do with what I did yesterday. Shouldn't that play some role in what you decide to write or not to write?

[Darryl Lemke]

Well, you know, news sources are always reluctant to talk. And so I guess I took it as my duty to take up that angle, especially since it involved the President of the United States.

[Oliver Sipple]

Right. But if you were to do it

[Robert Krulwich]

all over again, would you do anything differently?

[Darryl Lemke]

I don't know. I hadn't taken into account maybe

[Narrator/Voice Actor]

the

[Darryl Lemke]

potential harm of saying it. I don't know if I'd do it over again or not. But not able to turn back the clock for something like that.

[Jad Abumrad]

Clock marches forward after the break.

[Latif Nasser]

Radiolab is supported by AT&T. Summer is great for many reasons. The best reason are plans we made finally making it out of the group chat. Because there's more time to fit everyone in. Whatever you've got in store this summer, capturing those memories is a must. And AT&T has your summer essential in the iPhone 17 Pro. Its center stage front camera auto adjusts the frame to fit everyone into group selfies. You don't even have to turn your phone. No awkward cropping or asking strangers to take it. Just the perfect group selfie every time. And ATT makes sharing those moments with everyone easy because you gotta share the pic or it didn't happen. Right? Right now at at&t ask how you can get an iPhone 17 Pro on them with eligible trade in and requires eligible plan terms and restrictions apply, subject to change. Visit@&T.com iPhone or visit an @&T store for details.

[Shortwave NPR Announcer]

Every story from Shortwave NPR Science Podcast starts with a question like, why do we have nightmares? How does AI affect my energy bill? At npr, we are here for your right to be curious about the world around you. Follow short Wave wherever you get your podcasts because the more you ask, the more interesting the world gets.

[Jad Abumrad]

This is Radiolab. We're back with the story of Oliver Sippel from reporter producer Latif Nasser.

[Latif Nasser]

So the assassination attempt was on Monday and on Thursday, Sipple and his lawyer call a press conference.

[Oliver Sipple's Lawyer]

Well, I think you all know this is Oliver Sippel, who saved the President's life, and he has a prepared statement on a subject that's appeared in the press today.

[Oliver Sipple]

In the past few days, I have been asked many questions having to do with my sexual preferences to wet. I have been asked whether or not I am gay or homosexual. This is my reply to the line in question. The first reason you are interested in my in me is the fact the woman who tried to shoot the president. See, I'm sorry. I'm so nervous. Excuse me.

[Oliver Sipple's Lawyer]

This is a handwritten statement and he's having a little difficulty reading it. We xeroxed it in order to get it to you this afternoon. The reason you were interested in me is the fact that I deflected.

[Oliver Sipple]

Oh, okay. I couldn't get the word there. Can we go right from My sexual orientation has nothing at all to do with saving the President's life. Just as the color of my eyes or my race has Nothing to do with what happened in front of the St. Francis Hotel on Tuesday. My sexual sexuality. My sexuality is a part of my private life. And I have not. I have no.

[Oliver Sipple's Lawyer]

And has no.

[Oliver Sipple]

And has no bearing on my response to the act of a person seeking to take the life of another. I'm first and foremost a human being who enjoys and respects life. I feel that a person.

[Oliver Sipple's Lawyer]

Person's worth.

[Oliver Sipple]

Worth is determined by how he or she responds to the world in which they live, not on how or what or with whom a private life is shared.

[Latif Nasser]

He basically says, like, stop, Stop. It's kind of as simple as that.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

But there's something else that happens in the press conference that is. Makes the whole thing, I mean, so much more personally. And it actually was the very reason that Oliver called the press conference in the first place.

[Oliver Sipple]

I want you to know that my mother told me today that she could not walk out of her front door or even go to church because of the pressures she feels because of the press stories, concerns concerning my sexual orientation. Naturally, I never anticipated such interference with my family's relationship, which I, When I supposedly saved the President's life.

[Latif Nasser]

Oliver would later say that when he was talking on the phone with his mother, she said to him, I don't want to speak to you ever again.

[Oliver Sipple's Lawyer]

And she hung up on him and also hung up.

[Latif Nasser]

Did you call him Uncle. Uncle Oliver, or.

[George Sipple Jr.]

Yes, I called him Uncle Oliver.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah, this is George Sippel Jr. Oliver's nephew. He told me that most of Oliver's family stayed in Detroit. Oliver's two brothers and his dad worked together in an auto plant there.

[George Sipple Jr.]

They all worked for General Motors. And the stories that I've heard is

[Latif Nasser]

that the day after Oliver saved the life of President Ford, they walked in

[George Sipple Jr.]

and everyone wanted to, like, buy them a beer. You know, everybody on the factory floor was congratulating them, patting him on the back. You know, your brother's a hero, your son's a hero. You know when they would take their shift break, this is the old days, right? They'd take a shift break and they'd go to the bar, and everybody wanted to, like, buy them a round of drinks. So then the news comes out, whatever, a couple of days later, that he's this gay Marine, and there's teasing on the factory floor.

[Robert Krulwich]

Teasing mean teasing or teasing?

[LA Times Reporter Darrell Lemke]

Yeah.

[Oliver Sipple]

Yeah.

[George Sipple Jr.]

Yeah.

[Oliver Sipple]

Mm.

[George Sipple Jr.]

Yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

And George says, what happened is reporters back in Detroit just sort of descended on Oliver's parents to get more of the story.

[George Sipple Jr.]

And so they kept knocking on my grandmother's door, and she I guess, apparently told them to go away. I guess neighbors were harassing her. She thought the media was harassing her. My grandmother just said, I don't want to deal with it. And so don't come knock on the door. Leave us alone. They just wanted it to go away and go back to their, you know, private lives.

[Latif Nasser]

Now, one of the things that I found, actually, after talking to George were these interviews done with Oliver's family after the news broke that Oliver was gay. And there's just hold. I just want to read you this one particular passage here. Have you talked to any other members. This is from George F. Sipple, who is Oliver Sippel's brother. Have you talked to any other members of your family since September 1975 about Oliver? I mentioned it once to my father. Question, and what was his response? What did he say? And if you can remember, I was on afternoons then, and I had seen him because I had come in early, and he mentioned the fact that the next person that even said he had a son named Oliver, he was going to literally break their damn neck. Whoa.

[Jad Abumrad]

So his dad was like, this is his brother talking about his dad's reaction.

[Latif Nasser]

Brother talking to the dad? Yeah. And then. So then the brother says. And he told me quite clearly in two letter words, just forget you got a brother. And I let him alone.

[Audience/Background Voices]

Wow.

[Oliver Sipple]

I never anticipated such interference with my family's relationship, which I.

[Oliver Sipple's Lawyer]

When I.

[Oliver Sipple]

When I supposedly saved the President's life. This is all I have to say on this subject. Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen. Any questions that go to the minister, to my lawyer?

[Audience/Background Voices]

I'd like to ask Mr. Simple a question, if I could. What would you. What would you like to see happen now?

[Oliver Sipple]

I don't know. I'm just. I'm very shook up. I may even have to go even see a doctor over this. I'm very emotionally shook up. And I just. I feel very sorry for my family, too. It's awful. Just awful. Nothing more to say.

[Robert Krulwich]

Can you tell us the story of the letter?

[George Sipple Jr.]

Well, I wish I would have brought it. I do have it, but I didn't bring it today.

[Latif Nasser]

The same day as that press conference, which was three days after the assassination attempt, Gerald Ford actually did write a letter to Oliver Sippel, which was then released publicly.

[George Sipple Jr.]

It's a nice letter. It's White House stationery, White House envelope. It's basically Ford telling my uncle that, you know, he's thankful to him for this heroic deed. And he signed it Jerry Ford, which I've been told that Gerald Ford Signed different ways. So if he signed Jerry Ford, it meant something. It was like a personal touch.

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, there's this other chapter where your uncle says to the President, I guess, writes the.

[Oliver Sipple]

Well, so.

[Harvey Milk]

Yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

So this. We found a letter. We found a letter in the Gerald Ford Library. It's from your uncle to the President. Wow. Yeah.

[George Sipple Jr.]

I did not. I did not know about that letter.

[Latif Nasser]

Really. I have the letter right now. So it's. The date it is September 30, 1975. So here's what it says. Dear Mr. President.

[Oliver Sipple]

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

[George Sipple Jr.]

Yeah, you said it was what. It was when?

[Latif Nasser]

September 30, 1975. So that would be a couple days after he got the letter from Ford.

[George Sipple Jr.]

This was. So obviously. Obviously. He got. My grandmother must have hung up on him.

[Latif Nasser]

Right?

[George Sipple Jr.]

And then he wrote the letter.

[LA Times Reporter Darrell Lemke]

Yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah. It sounds like.

[George Sipple Jr.]

Cause he couldn't.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[George Sipple Jr.]

That's really interesting.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay.

[Ken Maley]

Yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

Well, stop me anytime if you have thoughts or reactions. Dear Mr. President, thank you for taking the time to write to me in view of some of the events since the unfortunate attempt on your Life on Monday, September 22. I really appreciate your publicly thanking me. As you probably know, there have been a number of stories concerning my personal sexual orientation in the news media. These stories have caused great anguish to my parents and to the rest of my family. I am sure my mother hung up on me when I first called her after these stories began to be published. I know you are concerned with very many matters which are too important and pressing for you to be concerned with the details of my private life. However, the unexpected and glaring publicity which has been given to my private life has very seriously disrupted my family relationships. Mr. President, it is a very hard thing to have your mother and family not want to have any contact with you. I know that your schedule is heavily occupied, but I respectfully request that you take the time to see my family, or at least call my family. The Telephone number is 313-849-0680. I love my family, and I do not want to be separated from their love and companionship. Your help will be gratefully appreciated. Respectfully, Oliver W. Sipple.

[George Sipple Jr.]

Wow. That's sad. Sadder to think that nothing came of it, you know?

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah.

[Oliver Sipple's Lawyer]

Yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

We tried really hard to find out if Ford ever made that call. The archivists at the Ford Library, they went through his call logs, and there was no evidence that he ever made that call. And then we talked to George Jr. And he talked to, you know, everybody in his family, and they don't remember it either. Anyway, you can't say for sure, but as far as we can tell, that call never happened. But we did find out that the same day that Oliver sent that letter back to Ford, he and his lawyer filed a $15 million lawsuit against the press.

[Jad Abumrad]

Really?

[Ken Maley]

Saying.

[Jad Abumrad]

Saying what?

[Latif Nasser]

That the newspapers, when they publicized that he was gay without his consent, they violated his privacy.

[Researcher Joey Plaster]

Okay. Walking out of Civic Center, Burt, onto Civic center in San Francisco.

[Oliver Sipple]

It's just.

[Latif Nasser]

It's one of those cases where it pulls your head in one direction and it pulls your heart in the exact opposite direction. And so we wanted to get into the legal case files, and we could not find them. We looked and looked and looked, and then we found them.

[Jad Abumrad]

You found them?

[Latif Nasser]

We found them.

[Jad Abumrad]

Where'd you find them?

[Researcher Joey Plaster]

So the clerk's office is, I guess, not surprisingly, right off City hall, they

[Latif Nasser]

were at this court in San Francisco. And so we recruited this guy, this researcher, historian of the, you know, gay movement in San Francisco. Great name, Joey Plaster. And he. Okay, so I'm going to need your id.

[Researcher Joey Plaster]

Okay.

[Latif Nasser]

Went and got the files for us. And then when we found them, it turned out there were, like thousands and thousands upon thousands of pages.

[Researcher Joey Plaster]

And is that everything?

[Sarah Jane Moore]

This is everything.

[Researcher Joey Plaster]

That's everything.

[Dan Moraine]

Okay, so the issue, you know, it's a very fundamental issue for those of us in journalism.

[Latif Nasser]

And to help us make sense of the arguments, you know, lurking in those

[Dan Moraine]

pages, what is privacy and what is invasion of privacy, we talked to Dan Moraine, editorial page editor of the Sacramento Bee.

[Latif Nasser]

He actually first heard about the case in journalism school and also wrote about Oliver Sipple way back in the 1980s.

[Researcher Joey Plaster]

So, anyway, okay, so here's the first page of the file.

[Dan Moraine]

The lawsuit was against the Chronicle.

[Researcher Joey Plaster]

The case is Oliver W. Sipple, plaintiff versus the Chronicle Publishing Co. Was against

[Latif Nasser]

the LA Times, the Des Moines Register, the Chicago Sun Times, the Denver Post, the Indianapolis Star, and the San Antonio Express.

[Audience/Background Voices]

Wow.

[Researcher Joey Plaster]

Let's see. So this is the deposition of Oliver W. Sipple. Let's see.

[Latif Nasser]

So one of the arguments that the lawyers for the newspapers were making is that Oliver's sexuality was not actually private.

[Researcher Joey Plaster]

Lawyer. Were there any people that you knew in San Francisco in, say, September 1975, who knew that you were homosexual? Yes.

[Latif Nasser]

Lawyer.

[Researcher Joey Plaster]

Approximately how many people? I have no idea. More than 10? Yes. More than 50? Yes. More than 100? Yes.

[Latif Nasser]

There were people in New York who knew he was gay. There were people in Dallas who knew he was gay. And it kind of. They settle in the, like, in the

[Researcher Joey Plaster]

hundreds did you tell anybody before September of 1975 that you were a homosexual? If I were asked, I am asking you. I don't know what you are asking.

[Latif Nasser]

And they make the argument, the newspapers, lawyers, that, hey, this was already somewhat

[Dan Moraine]

public effect, but his personal business was his personal business.

[Researcher Joey Plaster]

I have never attempted to obtain publicity for the fact that I am gay or predominantly homosexual in my sexual orientation.

[Dan Moraine]

He was a private citizen.

[Researcher Joey Plaster]

I have made my home approximately 1,800 miles away from home of my parents and my family so that I could move somewhat freely in the gay community without the fact of my sexual orientation getting back to my parents and family. And it goes on.

[Latif Nasser]

But the newspapers made this other argument that was like, okay, whether or not you're living a double life, whether or not you wanted to or whether or not you had to, there's something here that's bigger than that. That's bigger than you.

[Dan Moraine]

Which was. He was a private citizen who thrust himself as anybody would hope they would do. He ran toward. He went toward danger. And when he did, he also thrust himself into the public eye.

[Latif Nasser]

And to journalists, when you're in the public eye, you become something else entirely. You become a public figure.

[News Reporter]

Yesterday in San Francisco, a shot fired.

[Latif Nasser]

When that happened to Oliver, he lost

[Dan Moraine]

his right to privacy.

[Audience/Background Voices]

I'll make one more try on the gay thing.

[Latif Nasser]

And the newspapers argued when it came to Oliver's sexuality.

[Dan Moraine]

No, it was news at the time.

[Researcher Joey Plaster]

It is.

[Oliver Sipple]

Was.

[Researcher Joey Plaster]

And at all pertinent times has been my judgment that Mr. Sippel's activities in the gay community are highly significant and newsworthy for two important reasons.

[News Reporter]

First, on March 6, Sergeant Leonard Matlovich disclosed that he was a homosexual.

[Latif Nasser]

So like we said, when Daryl Lemke was writing that article about Oliver, you had this big story about the US Air Force trying to kick this guy Leonard Malovich out because he was gay.

[LA Times Reporter Darrell Lemke]

Would you like to meet him?

[Latif Nasser]

And Oliver has heard nothing from the President. The President later said that that had nothing to do with Oliver being gay. But to people at the time, the

[Researcher Joey Plaster]

suggestion that the President's expression of gratitude to Sipple might have been affected by rumors of Sipple's activities in the gay

[Latif Nasser]

community, that was news.

[News Reporter]

News Secretary Nessen was asked if that was the reason President Ford has not yet personally thanked him.

[Researcher Joey Plaster]

Second, the lies, the innuendos, Sipple's public display of heroism in saving the life of the President of the United States, the distortions.

[Ken Maley]

All gay people are child molesters presented

[Dan Moraine]

an image that gay people are. Are like everybody else, that they're Heroes

[Researcher Joey Plaster]

image, certainly contrary to the stereotype of persons associated with the gay community as weak and unheroic figures, which is to

[Latif Nasser]

say, this is newsworthy, this is worth knowing, and it is something that the whole country wants to know. And the value of that is more than the value of, you know, this individual person's privacy.

[Jad Abumrad]

Do they make it that explicitly? I mean, sort of putting it in terms of the public benefit outweighs the private privacy?

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah. So Oliver's case, it dragged on for nine years, so from 1975 to 1984. But this is. I'm quoting the judgment. The record shows that the publications were not motivated by morbid and sensational prying into appellant's private life, but rather were prompted by legitimate political concerns, that is, to dispel the false public opinion that gays were timid, weak, and unheroic figures and to raise the equally important political question whether the President of the United States entertained a discriminatory attitude or bias against a minority group such as homosexuals. So the court tossed Oliver's case out. He lost. He didn't get a dime.

[Jad Abumrad]

I mean, if you think about it, it is weird that a journalist can just take a person's most private details, and then if it feels relevant, like, if they can make that argument, they just put it out there.

[Robert Krulwich]

If we were to go silent because somebody says, don't say that about me, then, and the government backs him up.

[Jad Abumrad]

But if it's meaningful, then the person out of which the meaning is being pulled painfully has nothing to say about it.

[Latif Nasser]

That's just weird to me.

[Robert Krulwich]

It's really hard.

[Daniel Lutzer]

I mean, I was thinking about this, like, even sort of on the train

[Latif Nasser]

coming over here again, Daniel Lutzer.

[Daniel Lutzer]

And it's like the thing that, like, makes journalism law so complicated, and the things that make an invasion of privacy discussions so difficult is that, like, what makes something not an invasion of privacy is not that it's okay. It's that it's politically, you know, relevant. So, like, the story. The fact that the story. The fact that the private details of his life are politically relevant means that it's not an invasion of privacy. You know, it doesn't mean that it isn't rude or that it doesn't hurt. It means that it's an appropriate story to, you know, to publish.

[Latif Nasser]

But I. But I do think, like, why should the journalists be the only ones to decide what is newsworthy? It's not, like, why is it that then journalists, you just pick up a notepad and a pencil and all of a Sudden you have so much more power to say what's sayable than anybody else.

[Daniel Lutzer]

Well, I mean, we have this sort of long tradition of that in the United States. I mean, like, that's like what the First Amendment is. I mean, I don't know. I mean, it's like, yeah, sure. Like, it's like, why do journalists get to decide that? Well, like, who would you rather have decided? It's not a perfect system, but it's, you know, it kind of works.

[Radiolab Announcer]

So is Oliver just like this?

[Latif Nasser]

This is producer Tracy Hunt, who was in on the interview.

[Radiolab Announcer]

Somebody who's life is basically kind of sacrificed to the altar of the First Amendment in this sad way.

[Daniel Lutzer]

Yes. Yeah,

[LA Times Reporter Darrell Lemke]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

It feels like he was sacrificed from all sides, actually.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah, it feels like there's this one man in the middle, and then there are all these forces around him, these, like, these larger than life forces, like the White House. There's the gay movement, there's the freedom of the press, and all these people are sort of batting around all these enormous and important abstractions. And then in the middle of it, there's this guy that just is trampled by all of them.

[Jad Abumrad]

And so what ends up happening to him in the end?

[Latif Nasser]

Well, I'll tell you right after we take a quick break.

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[Jad Abumrad]

This is Radiolab. I'm Jad Abumrad, here with Robert Krulwitz. Getting back now to our story from producer Elazif Nasser about Oliver Sipple, who, as we heard before the break, tried to sue a series of newspapers for outing him. Lost that suit. What happened to him after that?

[Latif Nasser]

Well, apparently some people in the gay community during and after the lawsuit felt that he was trying to go back in the closet, so they sort of turned their backs on him. He surprisingly, he was friends with Harvey Milk till the end, like when Harvey Milk was assassinated and Oliver Sipple went to his funeral. And he did have one brother, George Sr. Who stuck by him throughout, but his parents did not, and they never fully accepted the fact that he was gay. And when his mom died, it was so bad that Oliver Sippel's father didn't let him go to the funeral. And because he sort of. He had so, so few people, I guess, at the end. And because There weren't, you know, a lot of news articles about him. And because a lot of people in the gay community from that time have died because of the AIDS crisis, it was really hard to find out what happened to Oliver Sipple in those last five years of his life. And the only way we could was because when we were talking to Daniel Lutzer, he mentioned this interview that he did with this guy named Way. He was a friend of Oliver's.

[Daniel Lutzer]

Wayne Friday was sort of like a pillar of the community in San Francisco. Like a pillar of the gay community and then also a sort of political figure. And he was a cop. And, you know, he was. He was sort of fingers in every pie kind of thing.

[Latif Nasser]

Wayne died last year, but Daniel still had the transcript of their conversation about Oliver Sippel's last days. And so, yeah, if you need time

[Audience/Background Voices]

to absorb it or just sort of think about it for a second, that's fine of me.

[Latif Nasser]

We found an actor, the very gifted Gordon Pinsent, and we had him read it for us.

[Narrator/Voice Actor]

Okay, let me have a go. I Forget, was it 1975, the Sarah Jane Moore? Yeah, that I met him around 73. He was a swamper at a gay bar called the Cockpit Swamperty. They used to clean the bars at night. You know, they set the bar up for the next bartender in the morning. That's what he did. He did it at two or three different bars. He was always at the bars. I'd see him. We actually became friends because we discovered we were both from Michigan. Bill was a good guy. He was just a fucking alcoholic. I mean, he'd get his disability check once a month and he'd go down to one of the bars in the Tenderloin. Where he used to hang out was called Queen Mary's Pub. He'd go in there the day he got his check. Swear to God, he'd spend his whole fucking check on everybody. And he'd get broke the rest of the month. He just couldn't control himself. And he was a little bit of a blowhard, you know. He'd get drunk and loud and he'd get tossed out of bars. I used to drive him home. Had an apartment on Van Ness. Had a little studio, maybe a one bedroom on the first floor. At about Turk. He'd be drunk of the nail at the bar and I'd drive him home. So I always knew where he lived. And after this thing with Ford, it really fucked his mind up. Sifford was a broken guy after that. The whole thing worked him, the public and the fact that everyone knew he was a faggot. You know, he said to me a couple of times, I went to the Marine Corps and I got hurt, and now what am I known for? For being a faggot. And I'd say, no, you're not. You're known for saving the president's life. You won't be known for what you did in bed, for Christ's sake. But he would get drunk and he'd start bemoaning that I'd sit there in the bar with him and I'd talk to him about it. Hey man, it is what it is. But he was just. He was just down to nothing. This thing happened and it overcame him. It was too much for him to handle. And I think he got to feeling sorry for himself and his family. Just many a night I would sit in the bar with Bill Silver and he'd cry on your shoulder and you'd say, okay, Sibyl, it's time to go home. And then I'd drive him home. I remember it was raining. It was pouring fucking rain. Bruce called me at my office over at the DA's office and said, wayne, will you do a well being check on Sipple for me? And I said, why? And he said, nobody's seen the dude. He hasn't been around for a while. So we go out there together and it was raining and I'm ringing the bell, ringing the bell, ringing. He doesn't answer. I notice on his door there were these little stickum things, post it. And he had befriended this little old lady who lived next door. They kind of looked after each other and she'd left all these notes. Bill, call me. I can't get a hold of you. So I rang the manager's bell and it was a little Filipino guy. I showed him my badge and I said, you gotta let me in. And so he did. And the door opened and I knew what was going on. It's the smell. It's a smell you never forget. It's a sickening, sweet smell. Bill was sitting in the chair. He was bloated. He was bloated out real big. He had a bottle of Jack Daniels sitting there and the television was still on. The coroner told me he'd been dead about 10 days, as near as they could figure. God, I didn't know. He was only 47. I thought he was older than that. Anyway, I got the guy to open the door for me and the minute he did, I said, close it. And then I had to stand there and wait for the coroner. I Remember, it was over here at the Campbell Funeral Home on Market Street. And then we buried them out in Golden Gate National Cemetery in San Bruno. And I remember it was very small. Casket wasn't opened. The funeral was just. I mean, there were more media there than anything else. I've seen him buy drinks for more people than were at that funeral. He could have been buried in Arlington if they'd made an issue out of it. I mean, shit, there he was, this national icon, a gay whatever. And there were just a few people out there for the funeral.

[Oliver Sipple]

I believe in human life. And I think that this country stands for human values, including life and freedom. I'm first and foremost a human being who enjoys and respects life. I feel that I. That. I feel that a person worth is determined by how he or she responds to the world in which they live. Not on how or what or with whom a private life is shared. These are. These are my words and they're my feelings. This is all I have to say on this subject. Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen.

[Latif Nasser]

Sam.

[Jad Abumrad]

This story was reported by Latif Nasser and Tracy Hunt. It was produced by Matt kielty and Annie McKeown, with Latifah and Tracy.

[Robert Krulwich]

Special thanks to Bruce T.H. burke, to Stacey Davis at the Gerald Ford Presidential Library, to the GLBT Historical Society, Stephanie Arias at the Huntington Library. James Crammond, who's Gordon Pinsent's agent. And as long as we're on the subject of Gordon, the actor you heard just ending the piece.

[Daniel Lutzer]

Wow.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

Just wow.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah. Thank you to Gordon.

[Robert Krulwich]

Special thanks also to Alan Jones, Denny Meyer and Floyd Abrams.

[Researcher Joey Plaster]

Thank you all.

[Jad Abumrad]

We had original music in this story. We used a lot of music from a guy named Patrick Cowley. He was a guy who grew up in Buffalo, moved to San Francisco in the 70s like Oliver Sippel, and in 1982, he died of AIDS. This music was released posthumously by the label Dark Entries. We're super grateful to them and to Patrick Cowley, wherever he is, for the use of his music. And last but not least, before we close, we just want to say a very sort of special belated goodbye to our senior producer, Jamie York, for everything, for guiding so many of our stories and our whole team for the last few years. Jamie, we will really miss you.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yes, we even do at this very moment, miss you.

[Latif Nasser]

Hey, 2026. Latif here with a few little updates for you. A few of the people in this story have passed away since we first released this episode last year. Sarah Jane Moore, the woman who tried to assassinate President Ford died at a nursing facility in Tennessee. She was 95. In 2020, Bud Lemke, the longtime LA Times reporter, died. He was 98. And our actor, Gordon Pinsent, reading Wayne Friday's transcript at the end there, also passed away in 2023 at the age of 92.

[Jad Abumrad]

All right, I'm Jad Abumrad.

[Robert Krulwich]

I'm Robert Krulwitz.

[Jad Abumrad]

Thanks for listening.

[Oliver Sipple's Lawyer]

To Play the Message, press two.

[Gabby Santis]

Hi, I'm Gabby. I'm from the Bay Area, California, and here are the staff credits. Radiolab is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser. Soran Wheeler is our executive editor. Sarah Sandbach is our executive director. Our managing editor is Pat Walters. Dylan Keefe is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Jeremy Bloom, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Maria Paz, Gutierrez Sindhu, Naina Sambandan, Matt Kielty, Mona Margauker, Alex Neeson, Sara Khari, Natalia Ramirez, Rebecca Rand, Anissa Vitce, Arian Wack, Molly Webster, and Jessica Young, with help from Gabby Santis. Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, Natalie Middleton, Angeli Mercado, and Sophie Semey.

[Oliver Sipple's Lawyer]

Hi, I'm Aubrey calling from Salt Lake City, Utah. Leadership support for Radiolab's science programming is provided by the Simon foundation and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

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[Sarah Jane Moore]

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