A Flock of Two

Summary

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Radiolab – "A Flock of Two"

Date: February 23, 2011
Hosts: Jad Abumrad & Robert Krulwich
Producer: Pat Walters

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Episode Overview

This episode of Radiolab, titled "A Flock of Two," explores the extraordinary relationship between Jim Eggers, a man living with bipolar disorder and a history of violent outbursts, and his African Grey parrot, Sadie. The story delves into how Sadie, a rescue bird, becomes not only Jim's companion but also a crucial emotional support, helping him manage his temper and mood swings. The episode winds through personal trauma, animal intelligence, and the power of unexpected companionship.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jim Eggers’ Story: Background and Struggles

• Introduction to Jim ([02:36]) – Jim, living in St. Louis, is introduced as someone with a volatile temper and a long work history in the Halloween industry.
• Mental Health Challenges ([03:06]) – Jim is open about his diagnosis:

  “I have a bipolar disorder with psychotic tendencies. …I can become extremely dangerous and violent.” – Jim ([03:15])

• Trauma and Upbringing ([04:13]) – Jim recounts witnessing his brother’s drowning at age seven and being blamed by his parents:

  “They wish it was me that died instead of my brother.” – Jim ([05:00])

• Life on the Edge ([05:11]) – After being kicked out of his home as a teenager, Jim spirals, living on the streets and accumulating anger.

2. The Critical Incident

• Threat to the Archbishop ([05:30]) – Reacting to news about abuse cover-ups in the church, Jim threatens a local archbishop and is sentenced to probation. This incident marks the start of a turning point.

3. The Rescue: Enter Sadie

• Meeting Sadie ([06:42]) – Jim acquires Sadie, a neglected African Grey parrot, after years of saving up for one.

• Sadie's Condition ([07:41]):

  “She looked absolutely horrible because this kid didn't take care of her.” – Jim ([07:41])
  Sadie has been plucking her feathers due to stress.

• Bonding ([08:23]) – Despite her appearance, Jim takes Sadie home, and she quickly bonds with him.

4. The Parrot as Therapy

• Sadie Mimics Jim ([09:08]) – Sadie begins to imitate Jim, first with lighthearted phrases, then with the very words he uses to calm himself:

  “I was telling myself, calm down. You'll be okay. Everything's fine... And then she started repeating it.” – Jim ([09:49])

• Operant Conditioning ([10:12]) – Jim rewards Sadie for saying soothing phrases, reinforcing this helpful behavior.
• Becoming a Service Animal ([10:30]) – Jim gets Sadie registered as a service animal and brings her everywhere—church, buses, the gym, even casinos.

5. Sadie’s Intriguing Intuition

• A Step Beyond Mimicry ([11:14]) – Sadie begins preemptively telling Jim to calm down before he even tries to calm himself:

  “He hears, ‘Calm down, Jim.’ From Sadie.” ([11:43]) “She says it first.” – Jad ([11:50]) Jim and the hosts puzzle over how Sadie ‘knows’ when he’s upset, speculating about body language and subtle cues.

• Emotional Impact ([12:19]) –

  “It makes you stop to think... just a little innocent animal... seemed to know him in this really intimate way.” – Robert ([12:37])

6. Investigating the Phenomenon

• Seeking Third-Party Verification ([13:28])
  The producers look for other witnesses in Jim’s life—friends, bus drivers, neighbors—but find nobody who’s seen Sadie actively talk Jim down.
• Best Friend’s Perspective ([14:32])

  “She definitely has said those, but I mean, she's not going to say the same thing every time she talks to me… people aren't around me when I'm having a mood swing.” – Larry, Jim’s friend ([14:39])

7. Expert Insight: Dr. Irene Pepperberg

• Scientific Context ([15:00]) – Dr. Irene Pepperberg, world expert on African Grey parrots, hears Jim’s story. While she hasn’t seen exactly the same thing, it doesn’t surprise her:

  “Not exactly, but it doesn’t surprise me.” – Irene Pepperberg ([15:15])

• Related Anecdote ([15:23]) – Dr. Pepperberg recounts Alex the parrot spontaneously telling her to “calm down” after a stressful work meeting ([15:51]).
• How Parrots Learn ([16:05]) –

  “She may not know what each of those little phrases mean, but she knows… when she says ‘calm down,’ Jim calms down.” – Irene Pepperberg ([16:11])
  She suggests it’s a form of associative learning rooted in the bird’s need to maintain a safe and calm 'flock'—in Sadie’s case, a flock of just two: her and Jim.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jim on Trauma ([04:17])

  “I saw him bob up and down three times. And the third time, he didn’t come back up. …my parents told me they wish it was me that died instead of my brother.”

• Jim on Sadie’s Early Speech ([08:41])

  “Like, the third week I owned her… she said, ‘Hey, Jim, do you want a beer?’ …I don’t drink beer.”

• The First Time Sadie Calms Jim ([10:01])

  “Saying, calm down, you’ll be okay. Everything’s fine.” – Robert
  “Exactly.” – Jim

• Jad on Sadie’s Intuition ([11:50])

  “She says it first.”

• Robert on the Relationship ([12:37])

  “Seemed to know him in this really intimate way…”

• Larry on Proof ([17:13])

  “I don’t care if anybody believes me or not… I know what she does, and that is that.”

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:36] – Introduction to Jim Eggers and his life in St. Louis
• [03:15] – Jim discusses his diagnosis and violent tendencies
• [04:13] – Recounting childhood trauma and being blamed for his brother’s death
• [05:30] – Jim’s threat to Archbishop and legal trouble
• [06:42] – Jim acquires Sadie from a neglected situation
• [08:23] – Sadie bonds with Jim and starts mimicking his speech
• [09:49] – Sadie repeats calming phrases back to Jim for the first time
• [10:30] – Sadie becomes registered as a service animal; their bond deepens
• [11:43] – Sadie preemptively calms Jim during a mood swing
• [13:28] – Attempts at third-party verification of Sadie’s behavior
• [15:00] – Dr. Irene Pepperberg provides scientific context on parrot behavior
• [16:11] – Associative learning and the ‘flock of two’
• [17:13] – Jim and Larry reflect on belief and the importance of Sadie to Jim’s life

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Tone & Atmosphere

This episode is intimate and empathetic, combining narrative storytelling with scientific inquiry. The tone remains gently skeptical but hopeful, emphasizing healing, companionship, and the unpredictable benefits of animal relationships—especially in the context of mental health.

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Conclusion

"A Flock of Two" offers a moving portrait of how a rescued parrot helps rescue a man. Through a blend of personal stories and scientific explanation, Radiolab invites listeners to consider the remarkable ways animals can sense, respond to, and even shape our emotional lives—sometimes in ways we can’t fully explain, but deeply depend upon.

Transcript

[Robert Krulwich]

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[Irene Pepperberg]

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[Robert Krulwich]

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[Irene Pepperberg]

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[Robert Krulwich]

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[Irene Pepperberg]

You will find them where you left them.

[Jim Eggers]

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[State Farm Agent]

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[Robert Krulwich]

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[Lowe's Announcer]

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[Robert Krulwich]

Wait, you're listening.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay.

[Larry (Jim's best friend)]

All right.

[Radiolab Announcer]

Okay.

[Jad Abumrad]

All right.

[Robert Krulwich]

You're listening to Radiolab, Radio Lab shorts from wnyc.

[Irene Pepperberg]

Yes, and npr.

[Jad Abumrad]

Hey, I'm Jad Abumrad.

[Robert Krulwich]

I'm Robert Krulwich.

[Jad Abumrad]

This is Radiolab, the podcast.

[Robert Krulwich]

And we're going to St. Louis.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

Nice.

[Jad Abumrad]

Nice and direct.

[Robert Krulwich]

He likes that because his mom lives there. But you'll like that because you're about to meet something.

[Jad Abumrad]

Somebody unusual, unrelated to my mother, thankfully. This comes from our producer, Pat Alters. It's the story of a rescue, a double rescue, really. It's one we've been wanting to tell for a while.

[Robert Krulwich]

Pat Walters. So, a few months ago, I went to St. Louis because I'd heard this story about a guy who had this pet that basically saved his life. And the pet. Is a bird. It's about this guy named Jim Eggers.

[Jim Eggers]

Oh, you're recording?

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm gonna. I'm gonna record. And in 2005, Jim was living by himself in a little apartment in St.

[Jim Eggers]

Louis, working in a Halloween industry.

[Robert Krulwich]

It was the winter, so Jim had just finished up his latest season at the local haunted house.

[Jim Eggers]

I've done Halloween stuff for 19 years. What do you do most of the time I've been in costumes and so forth, or wear masks, you know, like.

[Robert Krulwich]

Jumping out from behind dark corners and scaring people.

[Jim Eggers]

I can scream and, you know, go nuts.

[Robert Krulwich]

Which is kind of a strange gig for a guy like Jim because he has a really hot temper. What's technically your diagnosis?

[Jim Eggers]

I have a bipolar disorder with psychotic tendencies. And what that pretty much is is when I'm having a mood swing or whatnot, I can become extremely dangerous and violent.

[Robert Krulwich]

While I was there, he was totally calm. But Jim tells me that once he feels a mood swing start coming on.

[Jim Eggers]

It feels like real strange and tingly.

[Robert Krulwich]

Might just be a few seconds before.

[Jim Eggers]

All of a sudden, boom, Here you are like the Incredible Hulk.

[Robert Krulwich]

Have you ever. Have you ever physically attacked someone and hurt them?

[Jim Eggers]

Yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

Jim's known around his neighborhood for just losing it. From time to time, he shouts at people on the street, punches dents in people's cars. One time, he even poured hot coffee from a second story window onto his neighbor's head.

[Jim Eggers]

I'd go off on people and the. It's horrible.

[Robert Krulwich]

And if you ask Jim, he'll tell you. This all goes back to when he was seven.

[Jim Eggers]

At the age of seven, I lost my kid brother in the Mississippi River. I saw him drown and.

[Robert Krulwich]

You saw. You saw him drown?

[Jim Eggers]

Yeah, I witnessed him drowning. We wandered away from home. We were not properly supervised by my parents. And I told my brother not to go over into the river because it was deep. He didn't listen to me. And then the currents dragged him down. I saw him bob up and down three times. And the third time, he didn't come back up. And I was pleading with God, you know, crying, please bring him back. I'm going to be in trouble.

[Robert Krulwich]

And when Jim's parents found out, they blamed him.

[Jim Eggers]

You know, it was my fault my brother drowned. I should have been, you know, I should have saved him. And then other times they told me that, you know, they wish it was me that died instead of my brother.

[Robert Krulwich]

And then when he was 16, Jim's mom threw him out of the house. She just said one day, get out, Jim.

[Jim Eggers]

Yeah, she said she didn't want me over there anymore. Get out.

[Robert Krulwich]

After that, Jim's life kind of spiraled out of control. He ended up living on the streets for years and just getting angrier and angrier at everyone around him. And then in 2005, which is where our part of the story begins, Jim did something that got him in very serious trouble. Tell me about the archbishop situation. Okay.

[Jim Eggers]

As far as the he'd been reading.

[Robert Krulwich]

News reports about sexual abuse in the Catholic Church. And for reasons that aren't entirely clear, Jim had become convinced that the local archbishop, Archbishop Raymond Burke, was involved in covering this stuff up.

[Jim Eggers]

Bailing out priests that have sexually assaulted children and so forth.

[Robert Krulwich]

And one day he was watching the news and he saw Burke on there.

[Jim Eggers]

Like on the 12 o' clock news.

[Robert Krulwich]

Talking about something, can't remember what.

[Jim Eggers]

And at that point I snapped and picked up a phone, dialed. The archdiocese, asked them to connect me to his office, which, like idiots, they did. And when they did, I told him, you know, I ought to come down and kill you. I said, I may even do that.

[Robert Krulwich]

Sunday, a couple hours later, Jim went out to run some errands.

[Jim Eggers]

And when I head out the door, here were the police.

[Robert Krulwich]

Jim ended up getting sentenced to a year of probation. Just a few weeks into his probation, something happened that would basically set the story that we're telling about Jim in motion. There's a typical Sunday morning and Jim's at church and he runs into this.

[Jim Eggers]

Couple, these people that own Variety Bird Shop in Valley Park. The husband stopped me and said, well, we. You know where you can get an African Grey Parrot? And they told me that she came with a cage.

[Robert Krulwich]

I said, why, why, why would they approach you?

[Jim Eggers]

Well, I was putting $100 aside every month to pay for a baby African Grey Parrot.

[Robert Krulwich]

And you have to understand that Jim is kind of an animal nut.

[Jim Eggers]

He's had dogs and cats, guinea pigs and stuff like that his whole life, never a bird.

[Robert Krulwich]

But when Jim read about these African Grey Parrots, he became kind of obsessed.

[Jim Eggers]

With getting one because I knew they were highly intelligent and they were a lot of fun.

[Robert Krulwich]

So when the bird shop people came up to Jim and said, we can get you an African Grey Parrot.

[Jim Eggers]

And she comes with the cage for $550.

[Robert Krulwich]

Jim thinks to himself, that's like half what I was gonna pay.

[Jim Eggers]

So he says, you know, I'll go ahead and take it, because that was too good of a deal to pass up.

[Robert Krulwich]

There was a catch, though. The bird wasn't at the shop. It was being sold by this local kid who was just trying to get rid of her.

[Jim Eggers]

I went over there and she looked absolutely horrible because this kid didn't take care of her.

[Robert Krulwich]

She was about a foot tall.

[Jim Eggers]

You want some peanut butter?

[Robert Krulwich]

She had a black beak. Pretty yellow eyes, too. Piercing yellow eyes, bright red, and tail feathers. But when Jim first saw her, she.

[Jim Eggers]

Didn'T have any flight feathers in her left wing.

[Robert Krulwich]

Cause she'd torn all of them out.

[Jim Eggers]

Yeah, she was plucking her feathers, which.

[Robert Krulwich]

Is this awful thing birds do when they get really stressed.

[Jim Eggers]

And, I mean, she looked horrible. I almost wanted to say no after I saw her, but he knew he.

[Robert Krulwich]

Couldn'T just leave her there. So he paid the kid, took her.

[Jim Eggers]

Home, and gave her lots of loving and care. And within, like, three days, she bowed her head. That means she pretty much bonded with me. Like, the third week I owned her, I was in a another room on the telephone, and she said, hey, Jim, do you want a beer? And it's like, I don't drink beer.

[Robert Krulwich]

She would say that to you?

[Jim Eggers]

Yeah. She asked me if I wanted a beer. And then she'd ask, tell me stuff like, will you get me a beer? You know, made me choke on my coffee.

[Robert Krulwich]

But a few weeks later, Sadie started imitating Jim.

[Jim Eggers]

Yeah, she'll impersonate a little chuckle that I do. It's like, yeah, it's even better than Elmo could laugh.

[Robert Krulwich]

And as Sadie spent more time with Jim, she learned to say words and phrases. And then one day, several weeks after I had her, something kind of wonderful happened.

[Jim Eggers]

I came home and I was, like, in a really bad mood, and I knew I had to do something.

[Robert Krulwich]

One of those moments when Jim could just feel he was about to lose control.

[Jim Eggers]

So I was trying to talk myself into calming down.

[Robert Krulwich]

What would that sound like?

[Jim Eggers]

I was talking to myself and was telling myself, calm down. You'll be okay. Everything's fine, you know, and you know, it's not so bad. And then she started repeating it.

[Robert Krulwich]

Saying, calm down, you'll be okay. Everything's fine.

[Jim Eggers]

Exactly.

[Robert Krulwich]

Just like Jim was saying, word for word. I was like, wow.

[Jim Eggers]

And it's like, that gives me an idea.

[Robert Krulwich]

Jim started rewarding Sadie every time she said something that might help calm him down.

[Jim Eggers]

Like, you know, you'll be okay, Treat. Everything's fine. It's not as bad as you think.

[Robert Krulwich]

Treatment.

[Jim Eggers]

Shut up.

[Robert Krulwich]

Treat.

[Jim Eggers]

I don't want to hear it.

[Robert Krulwich]

Treat.

[Jim Eggers]

I love you, Jim. And she'll make a kissing sound.

[Robert Krulwich]

Treat. Treat.

[Jim Eggers]

It just goes on and on and on.

[Robert Krulwich]

So Jim went online and actually found this special kind of cage that you can carry around on your back.

[Jim Eggers]

Then I took her with me just everywhere.

[Robert Krulwich]

Even got her registered as a service animal, kind of like a seeing eye dog.

[Jim Eggers]

I mean, everywhere.

[Robert Krulwich]

Where would you go with her?

[Jim Eggers]

I've taken her into churches. I've taken it aboard the public buses. Take her to the gym. Yes. I've even taken her into, like, a couple of casinos through Here.

[Robert Krulwich]

And Jim and Sadie had a pretty good situation when Jim started feeling himself get mad. He'd tell himself, calm down. Sadie would repeat him. But then one day a few years ago, Sadie did something that went beyond mimicry. Jim says he doesn't exactly remember the first time it happened.

[Jim Eggers]

Oh, I can't think of any right now because I'm, like, blanking out.

[Robert Krulwich]

But it probably went something like this. Jim's just out in the neighborhood one day. He's got Sadie in her little backpack cage, and something happens that sets Jim off. I don't know. A car cuts him off at the crosswalk, and immediately Jim starts getting that tingly feeling.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

And then in the split second fraction of a moment before Jim starts to talk himself down like he does.

[Jad Abumrad]

Calm down, Jim.

[Jim Eggers]

Calm.

[Jad Abumrad]

Calm down.

[Robert Krulwich]

He hears. Calm down, Jim. From Sadie.

[Jim Eggers]

Exactly.

[Jad Abumrad]

She says it first.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah.

[Jim Eggers]

Wow.

[Robert Krulwich]

Like she knew what was in his mind or inside him, like before he even did anything. Oh, yeah.

[Jim Eggers]

She knows. She can sense that.

[Jad Abumrad]

How do you suppose that was happening?

[Robert Krulwich]

I don't know. I mean, Jim thinks maybe she can, like, feel a change in the way he's moving.

[Jim Eggers]

You know, I have, like, body tremors when I'm starting to really get furious.

[Robert Krulwich]

Maybe Sadie can pick up on those tremors. And Jim says this just kept happening.

[Jim Eggers]

She does it all the time. And, you know, it makes you stop to think if I would go off on a person or something like that, you know, I wouldn't have any remorse or anything, but, I mean, just a little innocent animal.

[Robert Krulwich]

But seemed to know him in this really intimate way, which kind of blew my mind. Yeah. But Sadie didn't do it while I was there. So I left Jim this tape recorder, and I asked him to try to get something like this on tape just so I could prove it to people. Hello.

[Jim Eggers]

My name is James Eggers, and I'm standing here with my parrot, Sadie. She's standing here right next to me on her little perch. Say something. You can say something to the. You can say something to the microphone.

[Robert Krulwich]

Huh? Week or so later, I got the tape back.

[Jim Eggers]

What do you have to say?

[Robert Krulwich]

Sadie was on there saying all kinds of things like hello, hello. She said her name. She said good girl. Things that I could imagine Jim saying to her.

[Jad Abumrad]

But did you ever get a sense from anything she said that there was a kind of weird intuitive exchange happening or something?

[Robert Krulwich]

Not really, but I thought if it happens as often as Jim says it happens, that someone in his neighborhood must have seen it.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

So I called this woman who runs a coffee Shop around the corner from his house, asked her if she'd seen it. She hadn't. Oh. Then I figured I could call the company that runs the buses and the trains that Jim rides every day, thinking that maybe one of their drivers would have seen him get upset about something and nothing. And then I called Jim's best friend, Larry, and I figured if anyone has seen this, it would be Larry, because he's around them, like, all the time. He had neither. So I called Jim to ask if I was, like, missing anybody. He didn't answer, So I left a message, left another message. Then finally. Hello? Hi, Jim. I got him on the phone. It's Pat again.

[Larry (Jim's best friend)]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Robert Krulwich]

It seems like nobody else has ever seen her or heard her say those kinds of things to you.

[Larry (Jim's best friend)]

Well, she definitely has said those, but, I mean, she's not going to say the same thing every time she talks to me.

[Robert Krulwich]

Right, but has anyone ever seen her talk you down from being mad?

[Larry (Jim's best friend)]

No, because most of the time, people aren't around me when I'm having a mood swing.

[Robert Krulwich]

I started to wonder, like, is this the kind of thing a parrot is even capable of? So I decided to check.

[Irene Pepperberg]

Hello.

[Robert Krulwich]

I called the scientist.

[Irene Pepperberg]

I'm Dr. Irene Pepperberg, adjunct associate professor at Brandeis University.

[Robert Krulwich]

She's basically the world's expert on African grey parrots. So I asked her, have you ever heard of anything like this before?

[Irene Pepperberg]

Not exactly, but. But it doesn't surprise me.

[Robert Krulwich]

In fact, Irene told me that something kind of similar had happened to her once.

[Irene Pepperberg]

Yes. I mean, there's.

[Robert Krulwich]

With this parrot named Alex that she worked with for, like, decades. Irene told me that whenever Alex would.

[Irene Pepperberg]

Get out of line, not preening instead of working, or butting in with the other birds when he should be quiet so we can train them, we'd say to him, calm down. Just calm down. And one time I come storming into the laboratory because I've just come from a horrible faculty meeting when I was in Tucson. And Alex takes one look and he says, calm down.

[Robert Krulwich]

Really?

[Irene Pepperberg]

Yeah. And I actually stormed off. And I said something to the effect of, don't you tell me to calm down. And I went into my office and slammed the door.

[Robert Krulwich]

And Irene says that a parrot like Alex or Sadie probably doesn't know what.

[Irene Pepperberg]

Calm down means or you'll be okay, Jim. She may not know what each of those little phrases mean, but she knows.

[Robert Krulwich]

That when she says, calm down, Jim calms down.

[Irene Pepperberg]

So she has learned from association that that will bring her flockmate back to.

[Robert Krulwich]

Normal, which is a big Deal for parrots, Irene says, because they're prey. So they're constantly looking out for each other, trying to keep from getting eaten. And in Sadie's case, she's in a.

[Irene Pepperberg]

Flock of two at this point. So if she wants to feel comfortable while preening or eating, she needs to know that he's going to be watching out for her. Remember, she doesn't have a big flock. She just has him.

[Robert Krulwich]

Wow.

[Jad Abumrad]

So, in the end, what do you make of all this?

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, I mean, I can't prove that she does the things Jim says she does, but on the other hand, everyone I talk to around Jim says that whatever is happening between them is keeping him from threatening people on the street, from punching dents in people's cars. It's just keeping him a better guy.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

So maybe it doesn't matter.

[Larry (Jim's best friend)]

I don't care if anybody believes me or not. You know, it's not. I'm not here to prove anything to anybody. That's not the point. The point is I know what she does, and that is that.

[Jim Eggers]

No.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay.

[Jad Abumrad]

Come on, girl.

[Robert Krulwich]

Say hello.

[Jim Eggers]

Not burp.

[Robert Krulwich]

No.

[Jim Eggers]

Don't eat. No eat.

[Robert Krulwich]

Thanks to Pat Walters.

[Jim Eggers]

Come on, fly home.

[Jad Abumrad]

Into Sadie.

[Larry (Jim's best friend)]

Hello.

[Jim Eggers]

Good girl.

[Jad Abumrad]

Into Jim.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yep.

[Jim Eggers]

Sadie. What are you looking at?

[Robert Krulwich]

Huh?

[Jad Abumrad]

Into you for listening. I'm Jad.

[Robert Krulwich]

I'm Robert.

[Jad Abumrad]

See you.

[Robert Krulwich]

She looks sleepy.

[Jim Eggers]

She's got her eyes focused on me and trying to figure out what you. What you're doing with the mic.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yes. Yeah.

[Jim Eggers]

Can I get you some coffee?

[Robert Krulwich]

Thanks.

[Jim Eggers]

You're quite welcome.

[Radiolab Announcer]

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[Robert Krulwich]

I thought that my boyfriend was going.

[Irene Pepperberg]

To propose to me.

[Radiolab Announcer]

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[Robert Krulwich]

I did use my sapphire reserve for the flights. So the points did make up for the whole no proposal. Earn 8 times points when booking through Chase Travel with Chase Sapphire Reserve.

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[Robert Krulwich]

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