A Flock of Two

Summary

Radiolab Episode Summary: "A Flock of Two"

Introduction

In the episode titled "A Flock of Two," hosted by Latif Nasser and produced by WNYC Studios, Radiolab delves into the extraordinary bond between a man named Jim Eggers and his African Grey Parrot, Sadie. This story explores themes of mental health, trauma, and the uncanny ways animals can aid in human emotional regulation.

Jim Eggers: A Troubled Past

The narrative begins with Latif Nasser introducing Jim Eggers, a resident of St. Louis who has battled severe bipolar disorder with psychotic tendencies. Jim's condition often leads to violent outbursts, earning him a notorious reputation in his neighborhood.

Jim Eggers [04:11]: “At the age of seven, I lost my kid brother in the Mississippi River. I saw him drown... I was pleading with God, you know, crying, please bring him back.”

This traumatic event significantly impacted Jim's mental health, leading to years of instability and estrangement from his family. By his mid-teens, Jim was living on the streets, his anger escalating into destructive behaviors.

The Turning Point: Introducing Sadie

In 2005, during a period of probation following an incident where Jim threatened the local archbishop over allegations of sexual abuse cover-ups, his life took an unexpected turn. At a local church, Jim encountered the owners of the Variety Bird Shop, who offered him an African Grey Parrot named Sadie for a surprisingly low price.

Jim Eggers [07:01]: “I knew they were highly intelligent and they were a lot of fun.”

Despite Sadie's initial poor condition—plucking her feathers and appearing stressed—Jim took her in, providing the care and affection she desperately needed. Within days, Sadie bonded with Jim, displaying behaviors that would soon play a pivotal role in his life.

Building a Unique Bond

As Sadie acclimated to her new home, she began to mimic Jim's phrases. Initially simple statements like "Do you want a beer?" evolved into more complex interactions. Jim started encouraging Sadie to repeat calming phrases whenever he felt the onset of an anger spike.

Jim Eggers [10:20]: “I love you, Jim.”
Sadie [10:23]: Makes a kissing sound.

Jim enhanced this training by rewarding Sadie with treats every time she uttered a phrase that helped soothe his agitation. This method transformed Sadie from a mere pet into a crucial emotional support system.

Sadie's Remarkable Intervention

A few years into their relationship, Sadie began to exhibit behavior that transcended simple mimicry. On a typical day, when Jim felt a tingle signaling an impending mood swing, Sadie would anticipate his distress and speak the calming phrases before Jim could even verbalize them.

Sadie [14:01]: "Calm down, Jim."

This anticipatory behavior stunned Jim and intrigued the Radiolab team, leading them to investigate the extent of Sadie's intuitive capabilities.

Investigating the Unbelievable

Latif Nasser and Robert Krulwich embarked on a journey to verify Sadie's abilities. They reached out to various individuals in Jim's life and consulted with Dr. Irene Pepperberg, a renowned expert on African Grey Parrots.

Dr. Irene Pepperberg [17:32]: “She has learned from association that that will bring her flock mate back to normal.”

Dr. Pepperberg explained that while parrots like Sadie might not comprehend the exact meaning of the phrases, they associate certain sounds with emotional states in their human companions. This association allows Sadie to respond appropriately, effectively acting as an emotional regulator for Jim.

The Science Behind the Miracle

African Grey Parrots are known for their intelligence and social nature. In Sadie's case, being part of a "flock of two" heightens her vigilance and responsiveness to Jim's emotional cues. This deep bond enables her to anticipate his needs and act as a calming presence during moments of distress.

Dr. Irene Pepperberg [18:32]: “She's constantly looking out for each other, trying to keep from getting eaten.”

Sadie's proactive approach ensures that Jim remains grounded, preventing potential outbursts that could harm himself or others.

Conclusion: An Unconventional Therapy

While the phenomenon of Sadie anticipating Jim's emotional turmoil remains partially unverified, the positive impact on Jim's life is undeniable. Friends and neighbors acknowledge that Sadie's presence has significantly reduced Jim's aggressive episodes, fostering a more peaceful existence.

Jim Eggers [19:26]: “I don't care if anybody believes me or not. The point is I know what she does.”

The episode concludes by highlighting the profound and sometimes mysterious connections between humans and animals, emphasizing how companionship can play a vital role in managing mental health challenges.

Notable Quotes

• Jim Eggers [04:11]: “At the age of seven, I lost my kid brother in the Mississippi River. I saw him drown... I was pleading with God, you know, crying, please bring him back.”

• Dr. Irene Pepperberg [18:32]: “She's constantly looking out for each other, trying to keep from getting eaten.”

• Jim Eggers [19:26]: “I don't care if anybody believes me or not. The point is I know what she does.”

Final Thoughts

"A Flock of Two" is a compelling exploration of the unique bond between Jim and Sadie, showcasing how an unconventional relationship with a parrot can lead to profound personal transformation. Through investigative journalism and heartfelt storytelling, Radiolab sheds light on the extraordinary ways animals can influence human lives, offering hope and understanding to those navigating similar struggles.

Transcript

[Latif Nasser]

Latif, hey, this is Radiolab. I'm Latif Nasser. So recently you may have seen just a rash of headlines about people using artificial intelligence for their mental health. There are all these therapist bots and just even people using regular chat bots to help them find solutions to their problem, to calm them down, to just looking for somebody to even just to listen. And I don't know, I'm not sure what to think of any of it, for a lot of different reasons, but partially because the AI doesn't know anything. It's just taking an unimaginable amount of our words, scrambling them up and generating something relevant and helpful and maybe even intelligent seeming. But it doesn't actually know what any of those words mean. Ultimately, all it's doing is parroting our language by back at us. And yet I know a lot of people find it very helpful to talk to. All of that got me to thinking about a very different story that we made here at the show years ago. A story where similarly, a person who needs help is helped by something, and it's unclear if that something really knows how it's helping or whether it's helping. We originally aired this back in 2011, so that was years before ChatGPT. But it's sort of a low tech way of doing the same thing, of parroting your language back to you to help you. So today I want to play that story for you. Here it is, a flock of two. Wait, you're listening.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay.

[Jim Eggers]

All right.

[Pat Walters]

Okay.

[Robert Krulwich]

All right. You're listening to Radiolab Radio from WNY.

[Jim Eggers]

Rewind.

[Jad Abumrad]

Hey, I'm Jad Abumrad.

[Robert Krulwich]

I'm Robert Krulowitz.

[Jad Abumrad]

This is Radiolab, the podcast, and we're.

[Robert Krulwich]

Going to St. Louis.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah. Nice, nice. And direct. This comes from our producer, Pat Balters. It's the story of a rescue, a double rescue, really. It's one we've been wanting to tell for a while.

[Robert Krulwich]

Pat Walters. So a few months ago, I went to St. Louis because I'd heard this story about a guy who had this pet that basically saved his life. And the pet is a bird. It's about this guy named Jim Eggers.

[Jim Eggers]

Oh, you're recording?

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna record. And in 2005, Jim was living by himself in a little apartment in St.

[Jim Eggers]

Louis, working in a Halloween industry.

[Robert Krulwich]

It was the winter, so Jim had just finished up his latest season at the local haunted house.

[Jim Eggers]

I've done the Halloween stuff for 19 years. What do you do most of the time? I've been in costumes and so forth.

[Robert Krulwich]

Or wear masks, you know, like jumping out from behind dark corners and scaring people.

[Jim Eggers]

I can scream and, you know, go nuts.

[Robert Krulwich]

Which is kind of a strange gig for a guy like Jim because he has a really hot temper. What's technically your diagnosis?

[Jim Eggers]

I have a bipolar disorder with psychotic tendencies. And what that pretty much is is when I'm having a mood swing or whatnot, I can become extremely dangerous and violent.

[Robert Krulwich]

While I was there, he was totally calm. But Jim tells me that once he feels a mood swing start coming on.

[Jim Eggers]

It feels like real strange and tingly.

[Robert Krulwich]

Might just be a few seconds before.

[Jim Eggers]

All of a sudden, boom, Here you are like the Incredible Hulk.

[Robert Krulwich]

Have you ever. Have you ever physically attacked someone and hurt them?

[Jim Eggers]

Yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

Jim's known around his neighborhood for just losing it. From time to time, he shouts at people on the street, punches dents in people's cars. One time, he even poured hot coffee from a second story window onto his neighbor's head.

[Jim Eggers]

I go off on people, and it's horrible.

[Robert Krulwich]

And if you ask Jim, he'll tell you. This all goes back to when he was seven.

[Jim Eggers]

At the age of seven, I lost my kid brother in the Mississippi River. I saw him drown. And you saw.

[Robert Krulwich]

You saw him drowning?

[Jim Eggers]

Yeah, I witnessed him drowning. We wandered away from home. We were not properly supervised by my parents. And I told my brother not to go over into the river because it was deep. He didn't listen to me. And then the currents dragged him down. I saw him bob up and down three times. And the third time, he didn't come back up. And I was pleading with God, you know, crying, please bring him back. I'm gonna be in trouble.

[Robert Krulwich]

And when Jim's parents found out, they blamed him.

[Jim Eggers]

You know, it was my fault my brother drowned. I should have been, you know, I should have saved him. And then other times they told me that, you know, they wish it was me that died instead of my brother.

[Robert Krulwich]

And then when he was 16, Jim's mom threw him out of the house. She just said one day, get out, Jim.

[Jim Eggers]

Yeah, she said she didn't want me over there anymore. Get out.

[Robert Krulwich]

After that, Jim's life kind of spiraled out of control. He ended up living on the streets for years and just getting angrier and angrier at everyone around him. And then in 2005, which is where our part of the story begins, Jim did something that got him in very serious trouble. Tell me about the archbishop situation.

[Jim Eggers]

Okay. As far as the.

[Robert Krulwich]

He'd been reading news reports about sexual Abuse in the Catholic Church. And for reasons that aren't entirely clear, Jim had become convinced that the local archbishop, Archbishop Raymond Burke, was involved in covering this stuff up.

[Jim Eggers]

Bailing out priests that have sexually assaulted children and so forth.

[Robert Krulwich]

And one day he was watching the news and he saw Burke on there.

[Jim Eggers]

Like on the 12 o' clock news.

[Robert Krulwich]

Talking about something, can't remember what.

[Jim Eggers]

And at that point I snapped and picked up a phone, dialed. The archdiocese, asked them to connect me to, to his office, which, like idiots, they did. And when they did, I told him, you know, I ought to come down and kill you. I said, I may even do that.

[Robert Krulwich]

Sunday, a couple hours later, Jim went out to run some errands.

[Jim Eggers]

And when I head out the door, here were the police.

[Robert Krulwich]

Jim ended up getting sentenced to a year of probation. Just a few weeks into his probation, something happened that would basically set the story that we're telling about Jim in motion. There's a typical Sunday morning and Jim's at church and he runs into this.

[Jim Eggers]

Couple, these people that owned Variety Bird Shop in Valley Park. The husband stopped me and said, well, we know where you can get an African Grey Parrot. And they told me that she came with a cage.

[Robert Krulwich]

I said, why would they approach you?

[Jim Eggers]

Well, I was putting $100 aside every month to pay for a baby African Grey Parrot.

[Robert Krulwich]

And you have to understand that Jim is kind of an animal nut. He's had dogs and cats, guinea pigs.

[Jim Eggers]

And stuff like that his whole life, never a bird.

[Robert Krulwich]

But when Jim read about these African Grey parrots, he became kind of obsessed.

[Jim Eggers]

With getting one because I knew they were highly intelligent and they were a lot of fun.

[Robert Krulwich]

So when the bird shop people came up to Jim and said, we can get you an African Grey Parrot.

[Jim Eggers]

And she comes with the cage for.

[Robert Krulwich]

$550, Jim thinks to himself, that's like half what I was gonna pay. So he says, you know, I'll go.

[Jim Eggers]

Ahead and take it, because that was too good of a deal to pass up.

[Robert Krulwich]

There was a catch, though. The bird wasn't at the shop. It was being sold by this local kid who was just trying to get rid of her.

[Jim Eggers]

I went over there and she looked absolutely horrible. Cause this kid didn't take care of her.

[Robert Krulwich]

She was about a foot tall.

[Jim Eggers]

You want some peanut butter?

[Robert Krulwich]

She had a black beak, pretty yellow, piercing yellow eyes, bright red, and tail feathers. But when Jim first saw her, she.

[Jim Eggers]

Didn'T have any flight feathers in her.

[Robert Krulwich]

Left wing because she torn all of them out.

[Jim Eggers]

Yeah, she was plucking her feathers, which.

[Robert Krulwich]

Is this awful thing birds do when they get really stressed.

[Jim Eggers]

And, I mean, she looked horrible. I almost wanted to say no after.

[Robert Krulwich]

I saw her, but he knew he couldn't just leave her there. So he paid the kid, took her.

[Jim Eggers]

Home, and gave her lots of loving and care. And within, like, three days, she bowed her head. That means she pretty much bonded with me. Like, the third week I owned her, I was in another room on the telephone, and. And she's like, hey, Jim, do you want a beer? And it's like, I don't drink beer.

[Robert Krulwich]

She would say that to you?

[Jim Eggers]

Yeah. She asked me if I wanted a beer. And then she'd ask, tell me stuff like, will you get me a beer? You know, made me choke on my coffee.

[Robert Krulwich]

But a few weeks later, Sadie started imitating Jim.

[Jim Eggers]

Yeah, she'll impersonate a little chuckle that I do. It's like, yeah, it's even better than Elmo could laugh.

[Robert Krulwich]

As Sadie spent more time with Jim, she learned to say words and phrases. And then one day.

[Jim Eggers]

Several weeks after.

[Robert Krulwich]

I had her, something kind of wonderful happened.

[Jim Eggers]

I came home and I was, like, in a really bad mood, and I knew I had to do something.

[Robert Krulwich]

One of those moments when Jim could just feel he was about to lose control.

[Jim Eggers]

So I was trying to talk myself into calming down.

[Robert Krulwich]

What would that sound like?

[Jim Eggers]

I was talking to myself and was telling myself, calm down, you'll be okay. Everything's fine, you know, and, you know, it's not so bad. And then she started repeating that.

[Robert Krulwich]

Saying, calm down, you'll be okay, Everything's fine.

[Jim Eggers]

Exactly.

[Robert Krulwich]

Just like Jim was saying, word for word.

[Jim Eggers]

And I was like, wow. And it's like, that gives me an ideal.

[Robert Krulwich]

Jim started rewarding Sadie every time she said something that might help calm him down, like, you know, you'll be okay. Treat.

[Jim Eggers]

Everything's fine. It's not as bad as you think.

[Robert Krulwich]

Treat.

[Jim Eggers]

Shut up.

[Robert Krulwich]

Treat.

[Jim Eggers]

I don't want to hear it.

[Robert Krulwich]

Treat.

[Jim Eggers]

I love you, Jim. And she'll make a kissing sound.

[Robert Krulwich]

Treat. Treat.

[Jim Eggers]

It just goes on and on and on.

[Robert Krulwich]

So Jim went online and actually found this special kind of cage that you can carry around on your back.

[Jim Eggers]

Then I took her with me just everywhere.

[Robert Krulwich]

Even got her registered as a service animal, kind of like a seeing eye dog.

[Jim Eggers]

I mean, everywhere.

[Robert Krulwich]

Where would you go with her?

[Jim Eggers]

I've taken her into churches. I've taken her aboard the public buses. Take her to the gym. Yes. I've even taken her into, like, a couple of casinos through here.

[Robert Krulwich]

And Jim and Sadie had a pretty good situation when Jim started feeling himself get mad. He'd tell himself calm down. Sadie would repeat him. But then one day a few years ago, Sadie did something that went beyond mimicry.

[Latif Nasser]

That's right after this break. Radiolab is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart Choice make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy.

[Pat Walters]

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[Unknown]

If you're a fan of the curiosity, science and storytelling of Radiolab, we think you'll love the Moth. Every week on the Moth podcast, real people tell their stories live on Steam Stage.

[Robert Krulwich]

It turns out the people I was looking for all my life is what.

[Unknown]

You people would call nerds. To hear fascinating, funny and mind bending stories from whale conservationists, comedians, Nobel Prize winners, teachers, astronauts, and people just like you, follow and listen to the moth wherever you get your podcasts.

[Latif Nasser]

Just before the break, Jim and his parrot Sadie were developing this relationship where she would help him calm down when he was about to lose control.

[Robert Krulwich]

A few years ago, Sadie did something that went beyond mimicry. Jim says he doesn't exactly remember the first time it happened.

[Jim Eggers]

I can't think of anything right now because I'm like blanking out.

[Robert Krulwich]

But it probably went something like this. Jim's just out in the neighborhood one day he's got Sadie in her little backpack cage, and something happens that sets Jim off. I don't know. A car cuts him off at the crosswalk, and immediately Jim starts getting that tingly feeling.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

And then in this split second, fraction of a moment before Jim starts to talk himself down like he does.

[Jad Abumrad]

Calm down, Jim. Calm down.

[Robert Krulwich]

He hears. Calm down, Jim. From Sadie.

[Jim Eggers]

Exactly.

[Jad Abumrad]

She says it first.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

Wow.

[Robert Krulwich]

Like she knew what was in his mind or inside him, like, before he even did anything.

[Jim Eggers]

Oh, yeah, she knows. She can sense that.

[Jad Abumrad]

How do you suppose that was happening?

[Robert Krulwich]

I don't know. I mean, Jim thinks maybe she can, like, feel a change in the way he's moving.

[Jim Eggers]

You know, I have, like, body tremors when I'm starting to really get furious.

[Robert Krulwich]

Maybe Sadie can pick up on those tremors. And Jim says this just kept happening.

[Jim Eggers]

She does it all the time. And, you know, it makes you stop to think if I would go off on a person or something like that, you know, I wouldn't have any remorse or anything, but, I mean, it's just a little innocent animal that seemed to.

[Robert Krulwich]

Know him in this really intimate way, which kind of blew my mind.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

But Sadie didn't do it while I was there. So I left Jim this tape recorder, and I asked him to try to get something like this on tape just so I could prove it to people. Hello.

[Jim Eggers]

My name is James Eggers, and I'm standing here with my parrot, Sadie. She's standing here right next to me on her little perch. Say something. You can say something to the. You can say something to the microphone. Huh?

[Robert Krulwich]

Week or so later, I got the tape back. Sadie was on there saying all kinds of things like, hello, hello, hello. She said her name, she said good girl. Things that I could imagine Jim saying to her.

[Jad Abumrad]

But did you ever get a sense from anything she said, that there was a kind of weird intuitive exchange happening or something?

[Robert Krulwich]

Not really. But I thought if it happens as often as Jim says it happens, that someone in his neighborhood must have seen it.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

So I called this woman who runs a coffee shop around the corner from his house, ask her if she'd seen it. She hadn't.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh.

[Robert Krulwich]

Then I figured I could call the company that runs the buses and the trains that Jim rides every day, thinking that maybe one of their drivers would have seen him get upset about something and nothing. And then I called Jim's best friend, Larry, and I figured if anyone has seen this, it would be Larry, because he's around them, like, all the time. He hadn't either. So I called Jim to ask if I was, like, missing anybody. He didn't answer, so I left a message, left another message. Then finally.

[Jim Eggers]

Hello?

[Robert Krulwich]

Hi, Jim. I got him on the phone. It's Pat again.

[Unknown]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Robert Krulwich]

It seems like nobody else has ever seen her or heard her say those kinds of things to you.

[Unknown]

Well, she definitely has said those, but, I mean, she's not gonna say the same thing every time she talks to me.

[Robert Krulwich]

Right, but has anyone ever said. Seen her talk you down from being mad?

[Unknown]

No, because most of the time, people aren't around me when I'm having a mood swing.

[Robert Krulwich]

I started to wonder, like, is this the kind of thing a parrot is even capable of? So I decided to check. Hello. I called the scientist.

[Dr. Irene Pepperberg]

I'm Dr. Irene Pepperberg, adjunct associate professor at Brandeis University.

[Robert Krulwich]

She's basically the world's expert on African grey parrots. So I asked her, have you ever heard of anything like this before?

[Dr. Irene Pepperberg]

Not exactly, but it doesn't surprise me.

[Robert Krulwich]

In fact, Irene told me that something kind of similar had happened to her once.

[Dr. Irene Pepperberg]

Yes. I mean, there's.

[Robert Krulwich]

With this parrot named Alex that she worked with for, like, decades. Irene told me that whenever Alex would.

[Dr. Irene Pepperberg]

Get out of line, preening instead of working, or butting in with the other birds, when he should be quiet so we can train them, we'd say to him, calm down. Just calm down. And one time I come storming into the laboratory because I've just come from a horrible faculty meeting when I was in Tucson, and Alex takes one look at me and he says, calm down.

[Robert Krulwich]

Really?

[Dr. Irene Pepperberg]

Yeah. And I actually stormed off, and I said something to the effect of, don't you tell me to calm down. And I went into my office and slammed the door.

[Robert Krulwich]

And Irene says that a parrot like Alex or Sadie probably doesn't know what.

[Dr. Irene Pepperberg]

Calm down means or you'll be okay, Jim. She may not know what each of the those little phrases mean, but she.

[Robert Krulwich]

Knows that when she says, calm down, Jim calms down.

[Dr. Irene Pepperberg]

So she has learned from association that that will bring her flock mate back to normal.

[Robert Krulwich]

Which is a big deal for parrots, Irene says, because they're prey. So they're constantly looking out for each other, trying to keep from getting eaten. And in Sadie's case, she's in a.

[Dr. Irene Pepperberg]

Flock of two at this point. So if she wants to feel comfortable while preening or eating, she needs to know that he's going to be watching out for her. Remember, she doesn't have a big flock. She just has him.

[Jad Abumrad]

Wow. So in the end, what do you make of all this?

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, I mean, I can't prove that she does the things Jim says she does, but on the other hand, everyone I talk to around Jim says that whatever is happening between them is keeping him from threatening people on the street, from punching dents in people's cars. It's just keeping him a better guy.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

So maybe it doesn't matter.

[Unknown]

I don't care if anybody believes me or not. You know, it's not. I'm not here to prove anything to anybody. That's not the point. The point is I know what she does. And that is that.

[Robert Krulwich]

No.

[Jim Eggers]

Come on, girl.

[Robert Krulwich]

Say hello.

[Jim Eggers]

Not burp. No, don't eat. No eat.

[Robert Krulwich]

Thanks to Pat Walters.

[Jim Eggers]

Come on, fly home.

[Jad Abumrad]

Into Sadie.

[Robert Krulwich]

Hello, good girl.

[Jad Abumrad]

Into gym.

[Robert Krulwich]

See?

[Jim Eggers]

What are you looking at? Huh? She's got her eyes focused on me and trying to figure out what you're doing with the mic.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah.

[Jim Eggers]

Can I get you some coffee?

[Robert Krulwich]

Thanks.

[Jonathan]

Hi, I'm Jonathan and I'm from St. Louis, Missouri. Radiolab was created by Jad Abumrad and is edited by Soren Wheeler. Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser are our co hosts. Dylan Keefe is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Bressler, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Rebecca Lacks, Maria Paz Butieres, Sindhu Nanya Sambadam, Matt Kielty, Annie McKeown, Alex Neeson, Sara Khari, Sarah Sandbach, Anisa Vita, Arianne Wack, Pat Walters, Molly Webster, Jessica Young, with help from Rebecca Rand. Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, Anna Pujol Mazzini and Natalie Middleton.

[Robert Krulwich]

Hi, I'm Daniel from Madrid.

[Jonathan]

Leadership support from Radelab Science programming is provided by the Simons foundation and the Jumtalk Foundational. Support from Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

[Latif Nasser]

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[Pat Walters]

How many discounts will you stack up? Tap the banner or visit usaa.com autodiscounts restrictions apply.

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[Latif Nasser]

Org.