Radiolab - "After Birth"
Date: August 25, 2009
Hosts: Jad Abumrad
Guest: Charles Fernyhough (Developmental Psychologist, Durham University)
Episode Overview
In this episode of Radiolab, host Jad Abumrad dives into the mysterious world of infant consciousness and perception. Prompted by the experience of fatherhood, he seeks to answer an age-old question: What is the world like for a brand-new baby? To explore this, Jad speaks with Charles Fernyhough, a psychologist and author, about what science reveals—and cannot reveal—about the sensations, mind, and emerging interactions of newborns.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Inspiration: Encountering the Mystery of Baby Consciousness
- Jad describes watching his two-month-old son Emil intently staring at him, raising fundamental questions about what such a new human experiences.
- “What is this little creature experiencing? ...What does the world look like to a tiny baby? What does it smell like? What does it sound like?” —Jad Abumrad [04:40]
2. Visual Perception in Infants
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Babies' Eyes See the World Brighter
- Charles explains that a newborn’s eye lens is “absolutely crystal clear,” unlike adults’ slightly yellowed lenses that filter some blue light.
- “One difference that does relate to their visual system is that the lens of their eye is absolutely crystal clear...They filter out some of the blue frequencies of the light that we see.” —Charles Fernyhough [06:32]
- He uses an evocative analogy for how the world may appear to a baby:
- “Imagine being in a Greek village in the summer at noon ... everything is white ... you suddenly take off those sunglasses ... It’s that bright.” —Charles Fernyhough [07:03]
- Charles explains that a newborn’s eye lens is “absolutely crystal clear,” unlike adults’ slightly yellowed lenses that filter some blue light.
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Commentary from Jad:
- “That blinding haze of whiteness might actually be how the world really is. We just don’t see it.” —Jad Abumrad [07:29]
3. Auditory Perception: Babies Hear Echoes
- Infants Experience Sounds Differently
- Babies' brains don’t yet filter out echoes, so they may experience a more echoey world.
- “The echoes are actually there, but our brains filter them out. But it takes some time for them to learn to do that...A newborn baby's hearing, we guess ... is in a very echoey way.” —Charles Fernyhough [07:49]
- Babies' brains don’t yet filter out echoes, so they may experience a more echoey world.
4. Brain Function & Sensory Development
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Unusual Cross-Talk in the Newborn Brain
- Charles describes a study in which babies' brains did not always process stimuli in the conventional way. Sometimes, a visual image would activate the “auditory cortex,” suggesting cross-wiring and mixed processing.
- “Sometimes when they showed them, say, a cross, the vision part would be silent, but they’d see a spark in the auditory cortex, the hearing part of the brain.” —Jad Abumrad [09:59]
- “A part of the brain that shouldn’t have fired did fire.” —Charles Fernyhough [10:02]
- Charles describes a study in which babies' brains did not always process stimuli in the conventional way. Sometimes, a visual image would activate the “auditory cortex,” suggesting cross-wiring and mixed processing.
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Discussion of Infant Synesthesia
- Jad and Charles speculate on whether all senses are initially blurred together (a “big synesthetic knot”):
- “So that when he hears my voice, maybe he sees flashes of color, or maybe when he looks at the wall, he hears tones, or maybe when light comes in through the window, he tastes it like salt or something.” —Jad Abumrad [10:36]
- Jad and Charles speculate on whether all senses are initially blurred together (a “big synesthetic knot”):
5. The Philosophical Problem: Can We Know Another’s Experience?
- Limits to Knowing Consciousness
- Charles points out the philosophical limits to knowing anyone’s consciousness:
- “Actually, I can’t know that anybody is conscious.” —Charles Fernyhough [11:08]
- “I can’t know that you’re conscious.” —Charles Fernyhough [11:10]
- “You could be a really smart zombie. You could be a robot. ... It may be that I’m the only person in the universe who is conscious.” —Charles Fernyhough [11:14-11:26]
- Charles points out the philosophical limits to knowing anyone’s consciousness:
6. Sticky Fixation: The ‘Gaze’ as a Brain Glitch
- Why Babies Stare So Much
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Jad asks about his son’s recent staring. Charles explains “sticky fixation,” which is the result of a developmental transition in the visual system from subcortical to cortical control.
- “As the handover happens... there’s a kind of struggle for power ... So the baby temporarily loses control of where he or she is looking because of this struggle for power.” —Charles Fernyhough [12:17]
- The result: “It’s as if the baby can’t take its eyes off you.” [12:44]
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Memorable Exchange:
- Jad: “You’re telling me this is a brain glitch.” [12:52]
- Charles: “It’s quite a well documented phenomenon. And it’s bad news for the parents who think that their babies are gazing at them adoringly because actually, they just kind of...They don’t know where to look.” [12:54]
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7. Why This Matters: The Leap of Faith
- Projecting Meaning is Undeniably Human
- Despite the biological explanation, Jad notes that it’s important for parents to project meaning onto a baby’s gaze; this is part of teaching social feedback loops crucial for development.
- “You have to project. You have to make that leap of faith. ... Because eventually, that will teach this little dude how the world works, that humans operate on relationships which are these feedback loops...” —Jad Abumrad [13:09]
- Despite the biological explanation, Jad notes that it’s important for parents to project meaning onto a baby’s gaze; this is part of teaching social feedback loops crucial for development.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
| Timestamp | Quote | Speaker | |---|---|---| | [04:40] | “What is this little creature experiencing? ...What does the world look like to a tiny baby? What does it smell like? What does it sound like?” | Jad Abumrad | | [07:03] | “Imagine being in a Greek village in the summer at noon ... everything is white ... you suddenly take off those sunglasses ... It’s that bright.” | Charles Fernyhough | | [07:49] | “The echoes are actually there, but our brains filter them out. ... A newborn baby's hearing, we guess ... is in a very echoey way.” | Charles Fernyhough | | [09:59] | “Sometimes when they showed them, say, a cross, the vision part would be silent, but they’d see a spark in the auditory cortex, the hearing part of the brain.” | Jad Abumrad | | [11:10] | “I can’t know that you’re conscious.” | Charles Fernyhough | | [12:44] | “It’s as if the baby can’t take its eyes off you.” | Charles Fernyhough | | [13:09] | “You have to project. You have to make that leap of faith. ...Because eventually, that will teach this little dude how the world works...” | Jad Abumrad |
Timestamps for Key Segments
- 04:30 – Jad introduces the central question and his newborn son Emil.
- 05:54 – Introduction of Charles Fernyhough and his background.
- 06:32 – Discussion of babies' visual perception and eye lens clarity.
- 07:49 – Auditory perception and echo phenomenon in infants.
- 08:36 – Brain cross-wiring, EEG study description.
- 10:36 – Synesthetic speculation: could babies’ senses be blended?
- 11:08 – The philosophical limits of knowing consciousness.
- 11:56 – “Sticky fixation” and the neuroscience behind the newborn gaze.
- 13:09 – Social projections, parental leaps of faith, and the importance of feedback loops.
Episode Tone & Final Thoughts
The episode is inquisitive, personal, and gently irreverent—balancing awe at the mystery of newborn minds with humor, philosophical humility, and warmth. Listeners are left with a mix of wonder and skepticism about both the scientific and philosophical unknowns of infant experience.
“You have to make that leap of faith.” —Jad Abumrad [13:09]
Further Reading:
Charles Fernyhough’s book: A Thousand Days of Wonder: A Scientist's Chronicle of His Daughter's Developing Mind