Jad Abumrad (1:11)

Like, how's this race gonna play in a part of the country that's so white? So she went town to town to town with a campaign, eventually ended up in a tiny little hamlet called East Jackson, not even on the map, population 400 or so. It's right in the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains. And it's a place where who you are, what color you are, well, that just gets real complicated.

Robert Krulwich (1:34)

I mean, I've got white, Irish, German, Indian, and all this, but if anyone would walk up to me today and say, what race are you? I would say Negro. I'd stand in front of the president today and tell him, hey, I. I am a Negro, and I am a proud American. I'm not black as in color, but I am a Negro. I mean, that's just the way I feel.

Lou Olkowski (1:56)

This is Claricey.

Robert Krulwich (1:57)

Clarice Schreck.

Lou Olkowski (1:58)

Clarice was one of the first people I met in East Jackson.

Clarissey (2:00)

So legal documents ain't supposed to lie, Right?

Lou Olkowski (2:03)

Okay, tell me what you're doing.

Clarissey (2:04)

And Clarissy, I'm getting a birth certificate.

Robert Krulwich (2:07)

Out to show you.

Lou Olkowski (2:08)

I think her experience has taught her that enough people think she's white that she goes out of her way when you meet her.

Robert Krulwich (2:14)

This is a legal document. Come on.

Lou Olkowski (2:16)

To let you know she's black.

Clarissey (2:17)

Okay, this is how it reads.

Allyson (younger self or perspective) (2:19)

Do you keep this in your purse?

Clarissey (2:20)

Yes, I keep this in my purse. And yes, it says Harley Harris.

Lou Olkowski (2:28)

That's her father.

Clarissey (2:29)

And then it comes over and it says, call her. Erase and it says what?

Lou Olkowski (2:33)

Negro.

Clarissey (2:34)

It says Mary Marguerite Simmons. What's it say?

Robert Krulwich (2:37)

Negro.

Lou Olkowski (2:38)

Okay, so you go as black. So introduce to me your two daughters.

Carlotta (2:43)

Okay, you gotta go and go there, don't you?

Robert Krulwich (2:46)

My oldest daughter, okay.

Carlotta (2:47)

I'm Carlotta.

Robert Krulwich (2:48)

Carlotta Hickson.

Carlotta (2:49)

I'm from East Jackson in Pike County, Ohio.

Lou Olkowski (2:51)

Carlotta lives right next door to her mom.

Carlotta (2:53)

Yes.

Lou Olkowski (2:54)

And like her mom, if you met her, you'd probably just assume she was white.

Carlotta (2:57)

The only thing you could tell is black on me is my hair. I mean, it's frizzy. That's it. But I've went as black all my life. And I guess I was just raised that way.

Robert Krulwich (3:07)

She stuck by it. Carlotta will stand and fight to the end.

Carlotta (3:11)

I don't think you should deny a part of you that is there.

Robert Krulwich (3:14)

Now, my youngest daughter, Allyson, Hmm, that's a whole different story.

Allyson (younger self or perspective) (3:18)

I'm way too white to be black.

Robert Krulwich (3:19)

She denies the fact that she's a Negro.

Allyson (younger self or perspective) (3:21)

Look at my hair. Look at my skin. I mean, really creamy. Cream, cream, cream. Lots of cream. You know, let's just go really white.

Carlotta (3:31)

Don't ask me why, but she decided that she's white.

Allyson (3:35)

No, not decide a few years ago.

Allyson (younger self or perspective) (3:36)

That I was gonna be white. I have been white since I've been 12. Old enough to say that I've been white, you know?

Clarissey (3:41)

See, and that aggravates me. That aggravates me. It really just. God, it just makes me so mad.

Lou Olkowski (3:50)

To understand, like, why their thing is so intense. Please, I think you just need to unpack what this area is all about. Okay. Like, about five miles from where Clarissy lives is a town called Waverly. And Waverly was settled, like, before the Civil War by a group of white folks who came up from Virginia with the express purpose that it should be an all white town, even though it was in the North. So to kind of achieve this, one of the things that happened is that a sign was put up on the outskirts of town warning black people to stay out of Waverly after dark. And to this day, Waverly is still something like 96% white, according to the census. So that was Waverly. Meanwhile, right next door, you had this place called East Jackson, where Clarissy now lives. And, you know, back in the day, a completely different situation was happening there. You had Irish and German timbermen who were mixing with runaway slaves and Native Americans who were running from the Trail of Tears. All these different cultures were blending and intermarrying and having these kids, and then grandkids who were Racially, very, very mixed. But to the folks back in Waverly, all those people in East Jackson, they were just all black.

Jad Abumrad (5:12)

No matter what they looked like, didn't.

Lou Olkowski (5:13)

Matter what they looked like, they were the other. And for people in Waverly, the other was black. And so if you lived in East Jackson, you were black.

Robert Krulwich (5:21)

So imagine your Clerisy, my dad's mother, was a full blooded white woman. My dad's dad was a German.

Lou Olkowski (5:27)

She's a mixture of all of these things. And if you look at her family tree, you could say she's only 1 16th black.

Robert Krulwich (5:34)

But when you are raised from a child up and you're told you're black, that's all you are, you're a nigger.

Lou Olkowski (5:41)

Well, she says, at a certain point, that just becomes who you are.

Robert Krulwich (5:45)

And I'm not ashamed one bit. I'm proud to be a Negro. Very proud.

Lou Olkowski (5:52)

So you had these kind of twin communities right next door to each other, largely separate. They both had their own schools. Waverly, of course, was, you know, bigger and multiple schools. And in East Jackson, we used to.

Robert Krulwich (6:02)

Have a school in our area and it was called the East Jackson School.

Lou Olkowski (6:06)

Little one room schoolhouse. And then in the late 60s or early 70s, the school board voted to close that school.

Robert Krulwich (6:14)

And all of a sudden all of those kids had to go to Waverly.

Lou Olkowski (6:18)

Where pretty much everyone was white.

Robert Krulwich (6:20)

When we went to Waverly schools on Martin Luther King's day, the white kids at that school would hang up signs saying, go home niggers.

Lou Olkowski (6:29)

And this was in the 80s.

Jad Abumrad (6:30)

What?

Robert Krulwich (6:31)

And so that's when they decided, well, on Martin Luther King's day, we won't.

Jad Abumrad (6:35)

Have school in the 80s.

Lou Olkowski (6:37)

Yeah, I heard that story from Clarissy, her sister Juanita, from the neighbors across the road. And even more surprising, you know, Allie told me when she and her sister got to school in the late 90s, things hadn't changed that much.

Allyson (6:51)

I got made fun of all the time. It was really, really bad. I would have kids, you know, come up to me in class and say, you know, well, she's, you know, she's dirty, you know, because she's from East Jackson and they're all dirty out there. And you know when they would do the little check in your head at school thing, they'd be like, oh, you know, she gonna have it because she's black. Because I was black, I'm gonna have head lice. I, I, you know, I'd come home and cry mom, and be like, oh, don't even worry about what they say. They're you know, you got to be better than them, blah, blah.

Lou Olkowski (7:21)

She says she couldn't ignore it, so she started to fight back.

Allyson (7:24)

I would punch him, you know, just punch him. Mom was constantly in the office because I was fighting.

Lou Olkowski (7:30)

But at some point during the eighth grade, Allie says something shifted.

Allyson (7:34)

We were sitting in class.

Lou Olkowski (7:37)

Two white girls were sitting behind her.

Allyson (7:39)

And I didn't even know these girls. And I was just sitting there minding my own business. And they came up from behind me and just threw this deodorant at me, literally. And they said, here, we thought you might need this. Don't black people need deodorant? Keep in mind, this is in the middle of class. Everybody is in there, and the teacher's there, doesn't say anything, just tells them to calm it down. And I was just like, you know, I tried to ignore them, but they just kept poking me. Hey, hey. They just kept, you know, poking me and telling me I was dirty. Black people are dirty. You're dirty. You know, we know where you come from. You're dirty. Everyone's dirty out there. You're all dirty.

Lou Olkowski (8:23)

And she said at that moment, she just kind of gave up.

Allyson (8:26)

I didn't like having to fight. I didn't like feeling like everybody was out to get me. I wanted to be part of the.

Robert Krulwich (8:35)

Group.

Allyson (8:37)

Not the outsider. It sucked being the outsider. I got sick of it.

Lou Olkowski (8:43)

Shortly after that class, she decided, I.

Allyson (8:46)

Don'T want to be black. I don't have to. When I went into high school, I had a break, you know, the summer break. And over the summer, I decided that I was going to transform myself, my life. It was going to be a new start for me.

Lou Olkowski (9:01)

That summer, Ali dropped a bunch of.

Allyson (9:03)

Weight, grew her hair long. I started wearing makeup.

Lou Olkowski (9:06)

And when school started up again that.

Allyson (9:07)

Fall, I didn't even look like I did when I was in grade school, you know, or middle school.

Robert Krulwich (9:14)

What did you do?

Allyson (9:16)

Well, I started hanging out with the older crowd.

Allyson (younger self or perspective) (9:22)

The, you know, juniors and.

Allyson (9:24)

Seniors, so they didn't even know who I was. People would ask what color I was. I was white. What color are your parents? They're white, you know, and if anyone asks, well, can we meet your parents? Well, she's gone on business. Oh, my dad, he works a lot, you know, Great. I have two hard working white parents, and you're never gonna meet them.

Robert Krulwich (9:46)

She came home that night and she said, I had a wonderful day at school. And I said, you did? That's nice to hear somebody that's black tell me that. And she Said, I told you I wasn't going as black.

Allyson (9:56)

I didn't talk to my sister very much either.

Allyson (younger self or perspective) (9:58)

Just because every time I would talk to her, I'd have to explain who she was.

Robert Krulwich (10:02)

Carlotta would be telling her friends and pointing at Allie, saying, that's my sister. And Ally be telling her friends, that's not my sister. This girl's crazy, you know? Don't believe nothing she's saying.

Lou Olkowski (10:12)

Whenever Ally's new friends did run into.

Allyson (10:14)

Her sister, they picked on her.

Carlotta (10:16)

They tormented her, teased, and throw things at you.

Lou Olkowski (10:20)

Same way they once picked on Ally.

Allyson (younger self or perspective) (10:21)

You know, calling her the N word.

Carlotta (10:24)

Nobody likes you.

Allyson (10:25)

Black people are dirty. You're dirty. But did I dare say anything about it? No way.

Carlotta (10:33)

Actually, Allie would lead a lot of the teasing. Yes, she would help him out.

Allyson (10:37)

I'd mock her, too.

Carlotta (10:37)

Making fun of me could make her popular. Then she would do it.

Lou Olkowski (10:41)

But she would make you cry at school.

Carlotta (10:42)

Well, sure she would.

Allyson (younger self or perspective) (10:43)

I saw her cry so many times, and I stood and did nothing.

Carlotta (10:50)

And she wonders why we're not close now. And, you know, you don't forget things like that. You don't forget who made your life miserable.

Allyson (younger self or perspective) (10:57)

She hated high school. She would never go back if you paid her. And then you have me. I loved it.

Allyson (11:12)

I had all these friends, and I really felt like everybody loved me. Granted, I don't know how good of friends they were because, you know, in a different situation, they probably wouldn't have. But I didn't care. I didn't care how they liked me. I just cared that they liked me.

Carlotta (11:28)

And still this day, Allie is that rotten little child inside. And I love her to death. I do. But still inside, she's still that little insecure child that wants to be friends with the popular crowd.

Lou Olkowski (11:42)

After high school, Allie moved across town.

Carlotta (11:44)

She lives in Piketon.

Lou Olkowski (11:45)

It's on the other side of Waverly.

Carlotta (11:47)

Yeah, it's on the other side of Waverly.

Lou Olkowski (11:48)

Into a predominantly white neighborhood. Carlotta stayed in East Jackson, and she stayed black.

Carlotta (11:53)

To be honest, the way I feel about that, it really doesn't bother me one way or the other. Bothers my mom more than it bothers me.

Allyson (12:02)

Oh, yes.

Lou Olkowski (12:03)

Allie says it comes up whenever she brings a friend over to her mom's house.

Allyson (younger self or perspective) (12:06)

As soon as they walk in the door, the very first question out of her mouth is, did Ally tell you she was black?

Robert Krulwich (12:10)

If she brings a guy or a friend, I tell them we're Negroes. I want him to know what we are. I do.

Allyson (younger self or perspective) (12:16)

I'll call her to the Site or whatever. And I'm like, do you have to.

Allyson (12:18)

Do this every time?

Allyson (younger self or perspective) (12:19)

Well, what, you're ashamed of us now? I am not ashamed of anybody, but I am not black. You know, I am white. Stop doing that.

Lou Olkowski (12:28)

As much as Allie and Clarissy argue, they're actually pretty close.

Clarissey (12:32)

Mommy's on the phone, kids. Come here, Nessie.

Lou Olkowski (12:36)

Clarissy takes care of Allie's kids a lot.

Robert Krulwich (12:38)

Come here. Mommy's on phone.

Lou Olkowski (12:39)

They speak on the phone every day.

Robert Krulwich (12:41)

Caleb wants to talk.

Clarissey (12:42)

Come here, Caleb.

Robert Krulwich (12:42)

Come here, baby. This is Lanessa.

Clarissey (12:46)

Here, take this.

Robert Krulwich (12:46)

Talk to mommy.

Allyson (younger self or perspective) (12:47)

Mommy.

Robert Krulwich (12:49)

And that's Caleb. These are Allie's two children I've got now. Allie's two children. They'll cry if you tell them that they're a Negro. Caleb believes that he's white.

Allyson (younger self or perspective) (13:02)

He's got blonde hair, blonde hair. And you know, he's really pale like me.

Robert Krulwich (13:09)

And when you say, excuse me, you know you're black. He will cry and say, no, I'm not either, I'm white.

Allyson (younger self or perspective) (13:15)

And she's like, you just ruined those kids. Why don't you want them to be.

Allyson (13:18)

Proud of where they came from?

Allyson (younger self or perspective) (13:20)

I said, I told him he has black in his family, but he is not black. When I got married, my husband knew.

Allyson (13:30)

Beforehand what he was getting into.

Lou Olkowski (13:32)

He lived in Waverly and he knew she lived in East Jackson, that I.

Allyson (13:36)

Came from a black community. He'd met my family and said that that was fine with him. And the further we got into our marriage, the more I could see him becoming more and more racist.

Lou Olkowski (13:48)

So they split up, but he still had the right to see his kids.

Allyson (younger self or perspective) (13:52)

And during one of the visits, I overheard a conversation that he was having with Caleb. And Daddy joined a new group and he wanted Caleb to join it. He said, you can't right now, but when you get bigger, Daddy's going to introduce you to him. And he said, we get to wear white hats and sheets and we get to beat people up. And I walk in the room and I'm like, what are you talking about? And he goes, oh, I didn't tell you about that. And there was nothing I could do about it. You know, he had visitations on the weekend. Caleb would come back and he would say the God awfulest things. He would tell my mom, you're a nigger, you're a nigger, Grandma.

Robert Krulwich (14:36)

We were sitting there, we were one day, and I don't remember exactly, it was a black show on TV that we were watching. I'm thinking it was a Tyler Perry movie. But anyway, Caleb came up to me and he said, grandma, you're a nigger. I said, no, honey, I'm not a nigger. I'm a negro. And he said, no, you're a nigger. I said, who told you to say that? Caleb? He said, well, my dad said he's going to get to KKK and come up here and what he's going to do.

Allyson (younger self or perspective) (15:00)

And I said, my son saying that in a community where people are all black, that doesn't give him much of a fighting chance. Finally, he stopped saying it. Thank God he was young enough to where it could be stopped.

Carlotta (15:16)

But Caleb is definitely a mini me.

Lou Olkowski (15:19)

Of Ally Allie's sister, Carlotta.

Carlotta (15:21)

Yeah, I mean, honestly, he. He acts just like her and Lanessa. And even though she's only 2 years old, she'll go around telling y' all time, I'm black, I'm black. So I think, you know, that will be another Ally Carlotta situation. As they're growing up, they kind of.

Allyson (younger self or perspective) (15:40)

Want more for my family. I'm not going to say why and let them be treated the way my sister was treated. They don't deserve that. So as long as I can pass for white, I go by white. Sometimes. I thought about moving away, but I love my mom so much and I could never leave her. But in the event that something ever happens to my mom, me and my kids will pack up and we will leave the state and we won't come back. And I will no longer be associated with this area. With East Jackson, it'll all be just a blur. I mean, I want out now, but I can't leave her. She knows that. I told her, when you're gone, I'm gone.

Jad Abumrad (17:05)

Producer lou okowski. That story was sponsored by Ohio's Hill Country Heritage Area and made possible with funding from the Ohio Humanities Council. I also want to give a huge thanks to the radio show State of the Reunion, hosted by the brilliant Al Letson. State of the Reunion initially broadcast a version of the story, which just won a big award. They're an amazing show. You should definitely check them out. Stateofthereunion.com I'm Jad Abumrad.

Robert Krulwich (17:42)

I'm Robert Krylwich.

Jad Abumrad (17:43)

Thanks for listening.

Robert Krulwich (17:46)

It.