Radiolab: "Animal Minds"
Podcast: Radiolab (WNYC Studios)
Episode: Animal Minds
Date: January 11, 2010
Hosts: Jad Abumrad & Robert Krulwich
Episode Overview
This episode delves into the eternal question: What’s going on inside an animal’s mind? Through stories, science, and personal encounters, the hosts explore whether we can share emotions, thoughts, and experiences with non-human animals—probing where the line lies between genuine animal communication and human projection.
Several stories—both moving and scientific—examine empathy, gratitude, and the authenticity of cross-species connection, asking: Can animals feel as we feel? Or are we just seeing ourselves in them?
Key Discussions & Insights
1. The Blessing of the Animals (00:44–03:50)
- Setting: The episode opens in St. John the Divine, a cathedral in Manhattan, during its annual St. Francis Day "Blessing of the Animals."
- Observation: The church is filled with dogs, birds, hamsters, and even a donkey.
- Theme: The hosts notice the deep emotional bonds people feel with their pets.
- Crucial Question: Do animals have inner lives capable of feeling grace, gratitude, guilt—the sort of complex emotions invoked during religious ceremonies?
- Quote: “All those things you might feel in a church—grace, gratitude, guilt. Can the animals feel those things too?” —Jad Abumrad, [03:37]
2. The Whale Rescue (04:08–14:31)
- Story: Divers set out to free a humpback whale tangled in crab gear 18 miles off the California coast.
- Adventure: Dramatic retelling from divers Mick Menego, Tim Young, James Mosquito, and Holly Dreard. The whale is described as “the size of a school bus” and tangled in 2,000 pounds of gear.
- Aftermath: Upon being freed, the whale approaches each diver, making prolonged eye contact and, as the divers interpret, expressing gratitude.
- Quote: “I felt this whale was really thanking us.” —James Mosquito, [13:57]
- Quote: “This mammal, this 50-ton mammal was literally saying thanks, thanks for helping me out… I’ll bring that to my grave.” —Tim Young, [14:01]
Key Segment: Whale Rescue Story [04:08–14:31]
3. Anthropomorphism & Scientific Skepticism (15:25–18:31)
- Interview: Psychologist Clive Wynne (University of Florida) challenges the divers’ interpretation.
- “The problem is, I just don’t speak whale. I don’t know what thank you looks like in whale.” —Clive Wynne, [16:17]
- Debate: Wynne warns against seeing all animal behavior through a human lens, cautioning that this diminishes the true diversity of animal life.
- Quote: “We live in a world that’s basically a world of human beings. It doesn’t matter—some of these human beings have fur suits on. Some… weigh hundreds of tons and live under the ocean.” —Clive Wynne, [17:21]
4. Animal Emotions: The "Guilty" Dog (18:31–21:43)
- Experiment: Alexandra Horowitz (Barnard College) explores whether dogs truly feel guilt.
- Result: Dogs always display the "guilty look" when scolded by owners, whether or not they misbehaved. The look reflects submission, not internal guilt.
- Quote: “It didn’t matter whether the dog had transgressed or not. All that mattered was whether it was being chastised…” —Clive Wynne, [20:49]
- Implication: Our human interpretations of animal emotions may not match the animals’ actual experiences.
5. The Neuroscience of Empathy: Spindle Cells (23:19–34:11)
- Expert: Neuroscientist Patrick Hof (Mount Sinai) discusses the discovery of spindle cells—long neurons believed tied to empathy and social connection.
- Findings: Spindle cells are present not only in humans, but also in humpback whales, elephants, dolphins, and great apes.
- Hypothesis: Species that possess spindle cells may be more prone to complex social and emotional experiences, possibly bridging the empathy gap between species.
- Quote: “If we assume these cells have such an influence on the sociability of the species… you would experience something of that kind with a species that has them.” —Patrick Hof, [32:23]
- Skepticism: Wynne argues there’s no single “empathy neuron,” suggesting behavior and development are more important than brain structure alone.
- Quote: “I don’t for a moment imagine that there’s going to be a type of nerve cell… which is going to be such an acid test…” —Clive Wynne, [33:46]
Key Segment: Spindle Cells & Empathy [23:19–34:11]
6. Development, Socialization, and Communication (34:26–38:18)
- Experiment: Clive Wynne describes a study comparing chimps’ and dogs’ ability to follow a human’s pointing gesture to find food.
- Dogs (socialized with humans) succeed. Chimps (even with spindle cells) fail unless socialized. Wolves raised by humans can also succeed.
- Insight: Socialization and developmental experiences, not just brain structure, determine cross-species emotional attunement.
- Quote: “Because there are things that go on earlier in our development that are crucial… you learn that… by looking around you and seeing who you’re interacting with.” —Clive Wynne, [36:21]
7. Literary Perspective: Paul Theroux, E.B. White, and Goose Minds (40:10–49:28)
- Author: Paul Theroux shares his own experience raising geese in Hawaii and reading E.B. White’s essay on geese.
- Critique: Theroux warns against projecting human emotions and narratives onto animals, arguing that it risks missing what's truly "goose."
- Quote: “You're giving E.B. White too much license. If you're saying it really doesn't matter. It does matter to me.” —Paul Theroux, [44:15]
- Anecdote: Theroux recounts nursing a gander back to health, only for it to bite him—reminding him of their essential goose-ness, not kinship.
- Quote: “I'm not his friend. I'm not a feathered creature. I'm a human being among birds.” —Paul Theroux, [47:29]
Key Segment: The Writer and the Geese [40:10–49:28]
8. Intimacy and Mystery: The Leopard Seal Encounter (50:04–57:22)
- Story: National Geographic photographer Paul Nicklin spends days in the Antarctic, encountering a massive, potentially deadly leopard seal.
- Unexpected Behavior: The seal repeatedly tries to feed him penguins, switching from live to dead as he refuses.
- Quote: “She was trying to feed me.” —Paul Nicklin, [53:08]
- Quote: “I swear she had a look of disgust on her face.” —Paul Nicklin, [53:49]
- Emotional Impact: Paul confesses to falling in love with the seal, describing a sense of deep, cross-species connection, care, and even protection.
- Quote: “I was starting to fall in love with the seal… I just can't wait to see her.” —Paul Nicklin, [55:00]
- Quote: “I've never had an experience with another human that rivals this. ... Someone taking care of you and feeling safe and nurtured and protected.” —Paul Nicklin, [56:55]
Memorable Segment: The Leopard Seal Story [50:04–57:22]
Notable Quotes & Timestamps
- Jad Abumrad: “All those things you might feel in a church—grace, gratitude, guilt. Can the animals feel those things too?” [03:37]
- James Mosquito (diver): “I felt this whale was really thanking us.” [13:57]
- Tim Young (diver): “This mammal, this 50-ton mammal was literally saying thanks, thanks for helping me out...” [14:01]
- Clive Wynne: “The problem is, I just don’t speak whale. I don’t know what thank you looks like in whale.” [16:17]
- Clive Wynne: “I don't doubt that there is the possibility of sharing between two species… but I think it would be a mistake if we thought that the love we feel for our dogs is the same feeling that the dog has back to us.” [18:17]
- Alexandra Horowitz (via Clive): “It didn’t matter whether the dog had transgressed or not. All that mattered was whether it was being chastised by its owner.” [20:49]
- Patrick Hof: “If we assume these cells have such an influence on the sociability of the species… you would experience something of that kind with a species that has them.” [32:23]
- Paul Theroux: “I'm not his friend. I'm not a feathered creature. I'm a human being among birds.” [47:29]
- Paul Nicklin: “I was starting to fall in love with the seal… She was trying to feed me.” [55:00], [53:08]
Important Segment Timestamps
- St. Francis Animal Blessing & Intro: [00:44–03:50]
- Whale Rescue: [04:08–14:31]
- Clive Wynne on Animal Emotions: [15:25–18:31]
- Dog Guilt Experiment: [18:31–21:43]
- Spindle Cells and Empathy Discussion: [23:19–34:11]
- Socialization and Pointing Experiments: [34:26–38:18]
- Paul Theroux & Literature on Goose Minds: [40:10–49:28]
- Paul Nicklin & the Leopard Seal: [50:04–57:22]
Episode Tone & Takeaways
“Animal Minds” swims between wonder, skepticism, and awe as it questions what it means to connect with another mind—animal or human. Listeners are left with a sense of humility before the unknowable richness of animal consciousness: We may glimpse it, share moments of recognition, or forge bonds, but always through the lens—clouded or clear—of our human perceptions. The episode is gently humorous, deeply curious, and unafraid to leave the central mystery unsolved.
Final Thoughts
Radiolab’s “Animal Minds” probes profoundly into what we feel, hope, and maybe invent about our relationships with animals. It’s a poetic reminder: Sometimes, the mystery is what binds us most.