Baby Shark

Summary

Radiolab Episode Summary: "Baby Shark"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Radiolab
• Host/Author: WNYC Studios
• Description: Radiolab delves into deep questions through investigative journalism, weaving together elements of science, legal history, and diverse global perspectives. Renowned for its innovative sound design, the show transforms information into a musical experience. Hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.
• Episode: Baby Shark
• Release Date: June 20, 2025

---

Introduction: The Ubiquity of "Baby Shark"

The episode opens with a light-hearted discussion among the hosts about the pervasive "Baby Shark" song, which surged in popularity worldwide since its release in 2015. Rachel Cusick recounts the challenging experience of keeping the song out of her household after recognizing its potentially overwhelming nature:

“We had kids after that. And by that point I knew that this was sort of weapons grade song, so we kept it out of the house.” (00:07)

Latif Nasser expresses his fascination with the song, leading to a deeper inquiry into the actual biology of baby sharks, setting the stage for the episode’s exploration.

---

Understanding Shark Reproduction

Claudia Gibe, a science reporter and self-proclaimed "ocean nerd," introduces the complexities of shark reproduction, categorizing it into three main types:

1. Viviparous Sharks

   • Description: Sharks that give birth to live young, similar to mammals.
   • Quote: “Viviparous sharks give birth to live young just like humans or like other mammals.” (02:33)
   • Details: Embryos develop within the mother's womb, often nourished by a placenta and sometimes secreting milk into a "milk bath" environment.

2. Ovoviviparous Sharks

   • Description: Combines live birth with egg-based development.
   • Quote: “Ovoviviparous means the embryo forms inside an egg case, but the egg hatches within the mother before the baby is born.” (03:45)
   • Notable Behavior: Sand tiger sharks exhibit intense intrauterine competition, sometimes resulting in siblings consuming each other to strengthen the surviving embryo.

3. Oviparous Sharks

   • Description: Traditional egg-laying process.
   • Quote: “Oviparous sharks lay eggs that are encased in protective structures, often seen washed up on beaches as mermaid’s purses.” (04:02)
   • Example: Some species create spiral-shaped egg cases that secure themselves to rocky surfaces, minimizing predation risks.

This foundational understanding of shark reproduction sets the context for the conservation efforts detailed later in the episode.

---

Greg Noel's Journey: From Curiosity to Conservation

Greg Noel, the founder of Shark Lab Malta, shares his transformative journey in shark conservation. Moving to Malta in 2007, Noel observed a lack of local initiatives focused on sharks. His dedication led him to frequent the local fish market, interacting with fishermen to study shark species:

“Pretty quickly realized there was nobody really in Malta focusing on sharks, doing anything about sharks.” (07:08)

Noel's proactive approach involved measuring dead sharks, photographing them, and collecting anatomical data to establish his organization. His persistent efforts culminated in a groundbreaking discovery in 2011.

---

The Discovery and Raising of Squiggle

While examining a small spotted cat shark, Noel discovered an egg case. Intrigued, he took it home and attempted to incubate it using makeshift equipment:

“I took it back home, put it in a little plastic aquarium... hung a piece of string to replicate seagrass for the egg to attach to.” (09:53)

Over weeks of diligent observation, Noel noticed subtle movements indicating the embryo's development. Despite initial setbacks, such as the first egg (dubbed Squiggle) ceasing movement, Noel experimented with environmental variables like temperature, which eventually ensured higher survival rates for subsequent eggs.

“Lowering the temperature, lowering the temperature... this mortality suddenly stopped massively.” (19:07)

After approximately six months, Squiggle successfully hatched, marking the first-ever case of hatching a baby shark from an egg taken from a dead mother. This milestone not only validated Noel’s methods but also ignited a decade-long mission to rescue and release numerous baby sharks back into the wild.

---

Emotional Release and Community Impact

The release of the baby shark was a deeply emotional event for Noel and his team:

“It was just super, super, super emotional. So when it came to this final kind of like, now we're going to open the box and take the lid off and see what happens... the shark had disappeared.” (21:05)

By the time of reporting, Shark Lab Malta had successfully released 371 baby sharks back into their natural habitat. Claudia Gibe highlights the broader influence of Noel’s work, noting the emergence of similar initiatives worldwide inspired by his published methodologies.

---

Expert Perspectives: The Debate on Conservation Strategies

While Noel's efforts received praise, not all experts concurred on their effectiveness. Nick Dulvey, a professor in conservation biology, offers a critical viewpoint:

“From the get go, focusing on the babies instead of the adults... it's a waste of time, but also kind of a distraction away from conservation efforts.” (25:33)

Dulvey argues that conserving adult shark populations has a more significant impact on species sustainability compared to rescuing individual juveniles. This perspective introduces a nuanced debate within marine conservation circles about the most effective strategies to protect shark populations.

---

Educational Impact and Changing Perceptions

Despite expert debates, the educational and psychological impact of Noel's work is undeniable. Engaging young minds, mentors from around the world, including Jaime Penades from Spain, utilize Noel’s methods to educate and inspire the next generation:

“I was concerned about how are we going to take care of them. I used to think of sharks as mainly dangerous... now that I've been taking care of five of them, I'm pretty much relaxed.” (27:06)

Claudia Gibe emphasizes the value of these initiatives in reshaping societal fears and fostering appreciation for sharks:

“If we've taught people to fear sharks, we can also unteach them to fear sharks, to appreciate the animal, the wonder.” (27:44)

Such educational endeavors contribute to a broader cultural shift towards valuing and understanding sharks beyond their stereotypical portrayal as fearsome predators.

---

Conclusion: Balancing Conservation and Education

"Baby Shark" culminates by acknowledging the multifaceted nature of conservation efforts. While strategies like raising and releasing baby sharks may face criticism regarding their long-term impact, they play a crucial role in education and altering public perceptions. Greg Noel’s passionate dedication showcases how individual initiatives can inspire global movements, highlighting the importance of both preserving adult populations and engaging communities through hands-on conservation projects.

“We need to change, change our concept. Get away from the monster image. They're not monsters at all.” (27:56)

Through heartfelt storytelling and investigative journalism, Radiolab's "Baby Shark" not only educates listeners about the complexities of shark biology but also underscores the profound emotional and educational ripple effects of conservation work.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Rachel Cusick [00:07]: “We had kids after that. And by that point I knew that this was sort of weapons grade song, so we kept it out of the house.”

• Claudia Gibe [02:33]: “Viviparous sharks give birth to live young just like humans or like other mammals.”

• Greg Noel [07:17]: “They were just kind of fascinating. They're very kind of mysterious. So I thought, okay, let's learn more about them.”

• Greg Noel [09:08]: “Pulled and pulled and pulled, and out came this perfect little 4, 4 and a half centimeter capsule with curly tendrils at the top, curly tendrils at the bottom.”

• Claudia Gibe [23:57]: “That Greg had started this project in 2011, and I was reporting this in, I think, 2020, 2021. So he'd by then been doing it for almost a decade.”

• Nick Dulvey [25:02]: “Imagine you're a farmer. You want to start an apple farm. Would you like 10 mature apple trees or would you like 10 apple pips?”

• Claudia Gibe [26:43]: “Everyone spoke about how the people around them in their community responded to this project really, really positively.”

• Jaime Penades [27:06]: “I used to think of sharks as mainly dangerous. At first I thought of sharks as big and scary creatures. And now that I've been taking care of five of them, I'm pretty much relaxed.”

• Claudia Gibe [27:44]: “If we've taught people to fear sharks, we can also unteach them to fear sharks, to appreciate the animal, the wonder.”

---

Timestamps

For ease of reference, here are the key timestamps associated with notable quotes and sections:

• 00:07 - Introduction to "Baby Shark" song in the household
• 02:33 - Explanation of Viviparous sharks by Claudia Gibe
• 07:17 - Greg Noel on his fascination with sharks
• 09:08 - Discovery of the shark egg case
• 23:57 - Claudia Gibe on Greg's decade-long project
• 25:02 - Nick Dulvey's analogy on conservation focus
• 26:43 - Community response to the shark project
• 27:06 - Jaime Penades' change in perception of sharks
• 27:44 - Claudia Gibe on unteaching fear of sharks

---

Final Thoughts

Radiolab's "Baby Shark" episode masterfully blends scientific exploration with personal narratives, providing listeners with an intricate look into shark biology and the passionate efforts of conservationists. By highlighting both the successes and debates surrounding baby shark conservation, the episode invites audiences to reflect on the broader implications of environmental stewardship and education.

Transcript

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, wait, you're listening.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay. All right. Okay. All right. You're listening to Radiolab Radio Lab from wnyc.

[Lulu Miller]

Lulu Latif, Radiolab.

[Rachel Cusick]

Day five of our week of sharks.

[Lulu Miller]

Back with our lead reporter slash lifeguard, Rachel Cusick.

[Latif Nasser]

Hello. Hello.

[Lulu Miller]

Wait, Rach, is this like our. This is our end of week of shark.

[Latif Nasser]

This is the end of the week of shark. The final day, the final business day.

[Rachel Cusick]

Final business day of sharks.

[Latif Nasser]

Our sharks. You might have some sharks in your weekend, but we won't be responsible for them.

[Rachel Cusick]

Right.

[Latif Nasser]

So today I want to end the week by circling back to the very beginning, which is to say baby sharks.

[Rachel Cusick]

You can't even say the word without it.

[Lulu Miller]

Without a doot.

[Latif Nasser]

Doot. Yeah, I wanted to know, like, you two both have little humans. Do you hate that song? Do you, like, listen to it daily? What's, what's your relationship to that song?

[Greg Noel]

When did the song come out?

[Latif Nasser]

2015. The Korean one came out? Yes.

[Rachel Cusick]

So we had kids after that. And by that point I knew that this was sort of weapons grade song, so we kept it out of the house.

[Latif Nasser]

Wow. It's like a zombie apocalypse. You're like, don't open the doors.

[Rachel Cusick]

That's right.

[Latif Nasser]

Baby starts coming.

[Rachel Cusick]

We've seen other people go through it and we're like, it's not going to happen here.

[Latif Nasser]

I don't have children. But, you know, it's like seeps into you just being in the world.

[Lulu Miller]

It does. It swept the world. It was everywhere.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah. So everyone had the same feeling about it. But then I was like, wait, what are baby sharks like? Like what? How do baby sharks get born?

[Rachel Cusick]

How do baby sharks get born?

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah, like what? Do you have an idea of, like, what shark birth looks like?

[Lulu Miller]

I mean, man, I don't know. Well, like, they are really fishy. Like, you think they do have eggs, but, like, I want them to have labor.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah. So I found someone to answer this question for me.

[Claudia Gibe]

I've always been like an ocean nerd.

[Latif Nasser]

But science reporter Claudia Gibe, who, like most of the people we've had on this week, is a bit of a shark fangirl.

[Claudia Gibe]

So by the time I got to this story, I was definitely fully a crazy shark lady.

[Latif Nasser]

I actually ran into her work because of an amazing article she wrote about baby sharks. And she kind of just introduced me to the very wacky world of shark reproduction. And I want to share it with you because it's just so fun. Okay, so the first category of shark birth is.

[Claudia Gibe]

Let me just make sure I get the term Correct. Gotta look back. Yes. Okay, so we have viviparis.

[Latif Nasser]

My name is Teeny Meemo.

[Lulu Miller]

Ooh.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah. Viviparous.

[Lulu Miller]

Like in vivo.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah, exactly.

[Claudia Gibe]

Viviparous sharks give birth to live young just like humans or like other mammals.

[Latif Nasser]

Just like you and me and dolphins. The embryo develops in the mother's womb.

[Claudia Gibe]

They have a womb. There's a placenta.

[Latif Nasser]

Some of them even make this sort of milk.

[Claudia Gibe]

Essentially, like secrete a type of milk into the womb.

[Latif Nasser]

Like a little milk bath for babies. Yeah, they're in a little milk bath.

[Lulu Miller]

So they're just like fully pregnant?

[Latif Nasser]

Fully. And they come out like little baby versions of the larger shark.

[Lulu Miller]

Like, how big?

[Latif Nasser]

It depends on the shark. So white sharks come out, like three or four feet long.

[Rachel Cusick]

Whoa.

[Greg Noel]

That's huge.

[Rachel Cusick]

That is enormous.

[Latif Nasser]

But, I mean, there's other sharks that come out like the size of your pointer finger.

[Rachel Cusick]

Cute.

[Latif Nasser]

I'm not a gremlin. Pixie Troll fairy. And like, God bless the hammerhead shark mothers.

[Rachel Cusick]

Oh, that's cool.

[Lulu Miller]

I think it would be so hard. Give work.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah. So that. So that's the first category.

[Lulu Miller]

Okay.

[Latif Nasser]

And then moving on to category two, which is Ovoviviparis ovoviviparidi.

[Rachel Cusick]

Okay.

[Latif Nasser]

So it's like a live birth, but also eggs.

[Rachel Cusick]

Live birth, but also eggs.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah. What does that mean?

[Latif Nasser]

So the embryo actually forms inside of an egg case, but that egg case.

[Claudia Gibe]

Hatches still inside mom and then the baby comes out.

[Latif Nasser]

So it kind of is combining the strengths of a live birth where you're protecting the young inside you, but it happens a lot quicker. And the sharks can make a bunch more eggs. There's one whale shark that was found, and it had 300 whale sharks inside it.

[Rachel Cusick]

Wow.

[Latif Nasser]

And then there's sharks that can fertilize sperm from multiple fathers. So they kind of place bets on different sharks, baby daddies.

[Lulu Miller]

Okay.

[Latif Nasser]

So they're just kind of like taking it all in. They're like, we'll consider your offer. And then they just, like, just dole it out.

[Lulu Miller]

That's a new team take on Take It All In.

[Latif Nasser]

But I think one of the nutsest of all nuts shark reproduction stories is the sand tiger shark.

[Rachel Cusick]

Okay.

[Lulu Miller]

Okay.

[Latif Nasser]

They create a bunch of eggs, and.

[Claudia Gibe]

The process that this shark has developed to get big and strong in the womb is to eat its brothers and sisters.

[Latif Nasser]

We teeny mines have a little world. What? It's like the coliseum for baby sharks. It is a gladiatorial match in mom's womb inside the shark, inside the shark. So you'll see scientific paper where there's like a uterus that's been sliced open and there's just like one shark and then a bunch of empty egg cases and it's like, I ate those. So, okay, so that's the ovo viviparity. And then the final category, oviparous are just the plain old egg laying sharks. So the mom puts an embryo inside the sort of egg case thing and then she just releases all of those eggs into the ocean.

[Claudia Gibe]

It's feeding on a yolk sack just like a chicken and it has everything it needs inside this little egg case.

[Latif Nasser]

So the mom will only do like one or two of these at a time. And they look like these little envelopes. You can sometimes see them wash up on the beach.

[Lulu Miller]

Oh, yeah, dude. Oh my God.

[Latif Nasser]

The mermaid's. The mermaid's purses.

[Rachel Cusick]

What's the mermaid's purse thing?

[Lulu Miller]

It almost looks like two boomerangs back to back.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah. But there's also a shark that lays an egg case that's shaped like a.

[Rachel Cusick]

Spiral drill so it like screws itself into the rock kind of thing so.

[Latif Nasser]

That nobody comes along and eats it because, you know, they're out there hanging out in the ocean by themselves. And those egg laying sharks, those are the sharks that we are going to talk about today. That's where the story that Claudia had written about begins.

[Lulu Miller]

Oh, cool. This wasn't even supposed to warm up. That was just. I'm sorry, I love it. And I was just, it was just too Willy Wonka. Like, come with me in the world of your imagination.

[Greg Noel]

And they're crazy little characters. You know, what they do.

[Latif Nasser]

And so this story is one man's possibly Sisyphean, but definitely sublime attempt to maybe just slightly rejigger the balance between humans and sharks.

[Greg Noel]

Mm. Yep. Yep.

[Latif Nasser]

Can I just ask you to introduce yourself, say who you are and. Yeah. What you do?

[Greg Noel]

Hi, my name is Greg Noel. What I actually do or what I do when I do.

[Latif Nasser]

Greg has taught English as a second language. He's done quality checks on electrical circuit boards. But his life's work, I think he would say, is the shark conservation and education organization that he founded called Shark Lab Malta, which is in Malta.

[Rachel Cusick]

And where is Malta again?

[Latif Nasser]

Little island below Sicily, warm Mediterranean.

[Greg Noel]

And it's just a really beautiful place to be.

[Latif Nasser]

So and so you were just interested in sharks because you loved being in the ocean or like, what was it about sharks that interested you in the first place?

[Greg Noel]

They were just kind of fascinating. They're very kind of mysterious. So I thought, okay, let's learn more about them.

[Latif Nasser]

But when Greg moved down to Malta from Britain, this was in 2007, he.

[Greg Noel]

Pretty quickly realized there was nobody really in Malta focusing on sharks, doing anything about sharks.

[Latif Nasser]

There wasn't a national aquarium at the time, and there weren't even many sharks in the waters near Malta where you could scuba dive.

[Greg Noel]

So that was why I first started going to the fish market.

[Latif Nasser]

He wanted to learn about sharks so badly. He's just, like, willing to go look at them in buckets.

[Greg Noel]

Yeah. I guess it's kind of strange, but it was kind of like, well, if I want to learn something about sharks, I need to go and find where I can see them.

[Latif Nasser]

So Greg would get up early, early in the morning, head down to the coastline where this fish market was. It was in this old rickety building, and he'd start talking to the fishermen, saying, like, I don't know, you got any sharks? You mind if I check them out?

[Greg Noel]

Yeah, yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

And so he'd go back, see these bins filled with ice and dead sharks. He started measuring the sharks with my.

[Greg Noel]

Tape measure and my camera, taking pictures, photographing them, learning more and more about the different species of sharks around Malta.

[Latif Nasser]

Learning about the basics of their anatomy.

[Greg Noel]

Checking whether it's male or female, just.

[Latif Nasser]

Like, gathering basic information for this organization that he was setting up.

[Greg Noel]

Sometimes recover certain parts of sharks from bins.

[Latif Nasser]

Like, oh, I'll grab a jaw and I'll clean it up, and I'll use it as, like, a demonstration that I'll give at, like, a community fair when I'm teaching people about sharks.

[Lulu Miller]

Wow.

[Latif Nasser]

But a couple years into his fish market research, things started to get a little interesting for Greg.

[Greg Noel]

Yep. Yep.

[Latif Nasser]

One day in 2011, Greg's at the market doing his thing, and he sees this small spotted cat shark.

[Greg Noel]

A small, spotty little shark, just kind.

[Latif Nasser]

Of inspects it like he always does. But then he just, like, notices something coming out of the small spotted cat shark.

[Greg Noel]

Oh, what's that? What's that thing protruding?

[Latif Nasser]

It's these tiny curly strings, these fibrous tendrils popping out of the shark's cloaca, which is like a shark vagina. Greg bends down kind of carefully, took hold of them, and at this point, the fishermen nearby are just, like, giving him the side eye.

[Greg Noel]

Well, as I said, there was a few kind of like craned necks looking across what's he doing?

[Latif Nasser]

But he just starts to pull on it slowly.

[Greg Noel]

Pulled and pulled and pulled, and out came this perfect little 4, 4 and a half centimeter capsule with curly tendrils at the top, curly tendrils at the bottom.

[Latif Nasser]

And he's like, oh, ding. This is a shirk egg. So is it almost like a ravioli?

[Greg Noel]

Let's imagine like half a ravioli, like.

[Latif Nasser]

A 2 inch by 1 inch rectangle.

[Greg Noel]

Pale greenish color, almost transparent.

[Latif Nasser]

And he holds it up to the light and he sees this little bulge.

[Greg Noel]

Inside the ravioli shaped capsule.

[Latif Nasser]

So here he is holding this little ravioli in the middle of the fish market.

[Greg Noel]

What do I do now?

[Lulu Miller]

Is it dead?

[Latif Nasser]

He doesn't know. So it came out of a dead shark, right? It could be dead, but it could maybe be alive.

[Greg Noel]

Just kind of thinking, or at least we could learn something from it. So I took it back home, put.

[Latif Nasser]

It in a little plastic aquarium that.

[Greg Noel]

He had, the kind of thing that kids would have sometimes that was never actually used, just happened to be kicking around the house. So then I'm kind of thinking, okay, obviously the shark would lay the egg in the sea. So I go and collect some seawater.

[Latif Nasser]

With like a bucket?

[Greg Noel]

Yeah, yeah, just literally a bucket. Take it back home, dumps the ocean.

[Latif Nasser]

Water into this little aquarium with a.

[Greg Noel]

Little air pump just to keep the water oxygenated. Dangle a piece of string across the width of the aquarium.

[Lulu Miller]

Why?

[Latif Nasser]

Just to replicate like some seagrass or something that the egg would hook onto. So he hooks the little ravioli tendrils onto the string and suspends it in the floating water.

[Greg Noel]

And then wait, because, I mean, once you put it in there, what do you do apart from watch it every day or several times a day or many, many times a day. Every time you walk past it, you take a look to just see what's going on. It just became a little bit like a magnet.

[Latif Nasser]

Day one, day two.

[Greg Noel]

Every time I was in and out, moving past it. Take a look, take a look, take a look.

[Latif Nasser]

Day four, five, six, seven, nothing happening.

[Greg Noel]

And after around about three weeks, you noticed the little bump on the top right hand side of it. So now each time I'm walking past, I'm now focusing on the little bump. And the little bump slowly separates from the main yoke section itself with a tiny, tiny, almost thread like connection. And it starts to move. Nope, just kind of like wiggling a little bit. And it's like, oh my gosh, this.

[Latif Nasser]

Shark, this baby shark that I brought.

[Greg Noel]

Home from a dead shark, a dead.

[Latif Nasser]

Shark is still alive. Now I should say Greg is standing, if somewhat amateurishly, on a sort of scientific frontier. I mean, sharks had been bred in captivity and eggs had hatched in aquariums.

[Greg Noel]

But the thing that had never been done before was taking an egg from.

[Latif Nasser]

A dead shark and getting it to develop. Nobody had ever done that.

[Greg Noel]

Nobody. So this was a first.

[Latif Nasser]

And now he's thinking maybe, maybe I could even get this thing to hatch.

[Rachel Cusick]

Which is what Greg is going to try to do right after this short break. Radiolab is supported by Audible Can AI predict the source of the next global pandemic? Or at least help convince a Hollywood studio to buy a new screenplay from Scott Z. Burns, the writer of Contagion, with special guest appearances from director Steven Soderbergh, Laurence Fishburne and Jennifer Ely, check out what Could Go Wrong, A deeply thoughtful, occasionally frightening and often hilarious Audible Original podcast, the series delves head and heart first into one of today's burning questions. Can humankind and I work hand in hand? Featuring an extraordinary collection of minds, both skeptics and optimists across academia, sciences, journalism and the entertainment industry, what Could Go Wrong Follows Scott as he slips deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole with an ever expanding cast of AI generated partners, including Lexter, his extraordinarily gifted sharp tongued collaborator. They co write and pitch Hollywood execs the Contagion sequel. In this brave new world of human AI collaboration, one question looms large. What could possibly Go Wrong? Listen to what Could Go Wrong now on audible. Go to audible.com whatcouldgowrong to learn more. Radiolab is supported by Capital One banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. He'd also tell you that Radiolab is his favorite podcast too. Oh really? Thanks Capital One Bank Guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com bank Capital One NA member FDIC.

[Lulu Miller]

Radiolab is supported by Betterment. When investing your money starts to feel like a second job, Betterment steps in with a little work Life balance. It's an automated investing and savings app that handles the work so you don't have to While they build and manage your portfolio, you build and manage your weekend plans. While they make it easy to invest for what matters, you just get to enjoy what matters. Their automated tools simplify the complex and put your money to work optimizing day after day and again and again. So go ahead, take your time to rest and recharge. Because while your money doesn't need a work life balance, you do make your money hustle with Betterment. Get [e-mail] that's B E T T E R m e n t.com investing involves risk performance not guaranteed.

[Nick Dulvey]

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[Lulu Miller]

Radiolab sharks.

[Rachel Cusick]

We're back.

[Lulu Miller]

All right, we pick up with the story of Greg with his little egg case in his little kid plastic aquarium. And the egg case has a bump which has just begun moving.

[Latif Nasser]

An egg case that Greg at this point has decided to name Squiggle was.

[Greg Noel]

Squiggling in the egg case and I didn't know what else to call it. It's squiggling around. That's how I described it to people.

[Latif Nasser]

And that it was alive and he'd given it a name.

[Greg Noel]

Now I'm thinking maybe I need to actually get a slightly bigger aquarium and something a little bit, I would say, more professional, you know, made of glass instead of plastic.

[Latif Nasser]

So he moves Squiggle into his happier newer home.

[Greg Noel]

And so now we're like six weeks, seven weeks to eight weeks.

[Latif Nasser]

As Squiggle is growing and moving more and more, it's still this sort of lump that's attached to a yolk in a thin thread.

[Greg Noel]

And then the yolk itself starts to appear to have blood vessels form on it. So you almost see vein like structures on the yolk sac.

[Latif Nasser]

What?

[Greg Noel]

And they kind of snake their way up the yolk sac to this little placental connection which then in turn is going into the shark.

[Lulu Miller]

Like blood?

[Latif Nasser]

Yes. So it's blood going to the head of the shark.

[Lulu Miller]

That is wild.

[Greg Noel]

Yes, it is alien, like because it has no distinctive shape, doesn't have the distinctive snout. There are no fins. It's. I don't know. How would you describe it? It's just like a little something.

[Latif Nasser]

So you'd walk by Squiggle, like, a couple times a day, like, hey, Squiggle, what's up?

[Greg Noel]

I wasn't necessarily talking to Squiggle, but when people said, how's it doing? How's it doing? Oh, Squiggle. Squiggle's doing fine. And then one day, it just simply stopped moving.

[Latif Nasser]

Squiggle stopped squiggling.

[Lulu Miller]

Oh, no.

[Latif Nasser]

And it just never. It never started again. That was the end of Squiggle. But Squiggle left behind this, like, little bit of hope for Greg.

[Greg Noel]

This beautiful little piece of ravioli kind of proved it was possible. So there was this kind of. This drive.

[Latif Nasser]

So Greg heads back to the fish market, tries to get as many eggs as he can. Not even like pulling out the strings. When he sees them. He now just starts cutting into the dead sharks.

[Jad Abumrad]

Whoa.

[Lulu Miller]

The fishermen are just letting him do this.

[Latif Nasser]

Well, Greg got very good at spotting which sharks had egg cases in them. But also, these fishermen, they were curious.

[Greg Noel]

Too, to the point where we arrived. They now tell us, oh, I've got some of this, and I've got some of this.

[Latif Nasser]

And at this point, he has egg cases upon egg cases at home, multiple aquariums, et cetera, and they're all starting to move, and they do a little bit of wiggling just like Squiggle did.

[Greg Noel]

Going good, going good. Everything's going good.

[Latif Nasser]

But then, just like Squiggle, they would all die. And Greg is like, what's happening?

[Greg Noel]

Why do they suddenly stop developing?

[Latif Nasser]

So he starts tinkering with, like, a couple things, like the aeration, the salinity, and then eventually he starts to drop the temperature of the tank, Lowering the.

[Greg Noel]

Temperature, lowering the temperature, lowering the temperature. And lo and behold, this mortality suddenly stopped massively.

[Latif Nasser]

These eggs start surviving.

[Greg Noel]

Everything seemed to continue to develop past.

[Latif Nasser]

The day that Squiggle died.

[Greg Noel]

Slowly get bigger, bigger, bigger. Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle.

[Latif Nasser]

And then some weeks in, he notices that one of the embryos in the egg cases starting to look like a shark.

[Greg Noel]

The fins develop there.

[Latif Nasser]

Seems to have a tail and a head.

[Greg Noel]

It's now starting to go into a position where it has its head at the bottom part of the egg case, and the body is looped over to the top, and the tail is now next to the head.

[Latif Nasser]

And then one day, he's cleaning the tank, and he accidentally bumps into the string that's holding the tendril. And then all of the sudden, all movement stops.

[Greg Noel]

I've just killed it. And then after a minute or so. Oh, no. It's all right. It's all right. It's all good. It's all good.

[Latif Nasser]

And then it started wiggling again. It's this defense mechanism these little egg cases have to protect themselves from predators who want to eat them. Now, at this point, the little shark bodies, they're curled around the yolk sack. And Greg can see that that yolk.

[Greg Noel]

Sack is getting smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller. And after around about five and a half, coming up towards six months, that yolk sack has almost disappeared.

[Latif Nasser]

And so he starts thinking, I bet when that yolk sack goes away, that's when this thing's gonna hatch.

[Greg Noel]

Now, every time you go past the aquarium, you're looking, looking, looking. Can you see any. Can you see any yolk?

[Latif Nasser]

And then one day, oh, it's gone. And in the place where the shark used to attach to the yolk sack, there's just a little belly button.

[Greg Noel]

Literally. Cause it' so you could actually quite happily say that sharks have belly buttons. And at that point, the shark is ready to be born.

[Latif Nasser]

Wow. The belly button is the final touch, the master stroke.

[Greg Noel]

It is. It is. It is.

[Latif Nasser]

So he's just sitting there waiting for this shark to finally break out of this egg case.

[Greg Noel]

You can only spend so many hours with your eyes open watching a shark, waiting for it to hatch. It's like the kettle. Yeah. You go to bed and you think, okay, well, everything seems fine.

[Latif Nasser]

But then one morning, he wakes up.

[Greg Noel]

And there's a little baby shark sitting at the bottom of the tank. Just sitting at the bottom.

[Latif Nasser]

Like a picture perfect, miniature version of a small spotted cat shark just sitting on the bottom of the tank.

[Greg Noel]

Yeah.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah, he did it.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah. He has a baby shark in his.

[Lulu Miller]

Aquarium that came from a dead mother shark.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah.

[Lulu Miller]

Wow.

[Latif Nasser]

And so this baby shark is just sitting at the bottom of the tank, and he's like, I guess it's time to let it go, release it into the sea, back to the ocean. So one afternoon, a group of us.

[Greg Noel]

I think there was seven or eight members of the organization, they pack it.

[Latif Nasser]

Up into a cooler and they drive to the north side of the island.

[Greg Noel]

We get our wetsuits on, put our scuba gear on, transfer the shark into the box.

[Latif Nasser]

Just like a little Tupperware you'd put your lunch in.

[Greg Noel]

Everyone got cameras? Yeah, yeah. Got camera. Are the batteries charged? Yeah, yeah, yeah, the battery's charged. Okay, are we ready? We're ready. Let's get in the water.

[Latif Nasser]

So they walk out into the water, dip down under and start to dive.

[Greg Noel]

To a depth of, I don't know, maybe about 10, 12 meters.

[Latif Nasser]

And they're swimming around the bottom looking for a good place to leave this.

[Greg Noel]

Baby shark underwater with a little box, with a little baby shark. You can see the beaming smiles behind.

[Latif Nasser]

The regulators and the reality of what they're doing, what they've done. It starts to sink in.

[Greg Noel]

The amount of time, energy, effort, dedication, concern, worry built up over the year or so of development and then hatching and releasing, blah, blah, blah.

[Latif Nasser]

They're all just tearing up, like their masks just fill up with their tears.

[Greg Noel]

Seriously, it was just super, super, super emotional. So when it came to this final kind of like, now we're going to open the box and take the lid off and see what happens.

[Latif Nasser]

Greg's holding this little box and he starts to open it just very slowly.

[Greg Noel]

Slowly take off the lid of the box. And the little shark wiggles around a bit and then it kind of lifts off the box and starts to swim. I don't know, there was just kind of. I don't know, there was just a very, very kind of like emotional but peaceful moment. It felt like many minutes, but it probably wasn't. The shark had disappeared. We weren't going to chase it. We had no idea where it was going to go next.

[Latif Nasser]

That shark was the first, but it wasn't the last.

[Greg Noel]

The total number of sharks we've released to date is 371.

[Lulu Miller]

Whoa.

[Latif Nasser]

And one thing that science reporter Claudia Gibe from the beginning pointed out is.

[Claudia Gibe]

That Greg had started this project in 2011, and I was reporting this in, I think, 2020, 2021. So he'd by then been doing it for almost a decade. He had published a paper on it in 2018 that essentially was like a how to guide for taking egg cases and raising them to be re released in the wild.

[Latif Nasser]

And now there are other scientists in other parts of the world rescuing egg cases from these dead sharks.

[Greg Noel]

So it wasn't a question of, wow, we're stopping a species from becoming extinct. It was a question of putting them back where they belong. Let's let nature take its course. And if nature determines that this creature will have a long and happy fruitful life, fantastic. If nature says something different, it's nature doing what nature does.

[Jad Abumrad]

I hate to say it, they're going to die. That's nature. Red roll and tooth and claw.

[Claudia Gibe]

When I was reporting this story, And I spoke to this one prestigious researcher.

[Jad Abumrad]

Nick Dulvey, professor in conservation biology at Simon Fraser University in Vancouver.

[Claudia Gibe]

And in his view, it's almost kind of pointless to put baby sharks back into the ocean.

[Latif Nasser]

He says, like, these babies are just like a snack for another fish.

[Jad Abumrad]

This is probably the most important, least well understood fact in marine conservation, that you should conserve the adults and not the babies.

[Latif Nasser]

Nick says, just, like, put this all in a different context. Just imagine you're a farmer.

[Jad Abumrad]

You want to start an apple farm. I'm going to give you a choice. Would you like 10 mature apple trees or would you like 10 apple pips?

[Greg Noel]

From my apple.

[Jad Abumrad]

And everybody, when they see it, they're like, oh, yeah, of course. Yeah, of course, give me the adults. Because they can breed multiple times right.

[Latif Nasser]

From the get go, focusing on the babies instead of the adults. It's not only a waste of time, but also kind of a distraction away from conservation efforts, fisheries management or bycatch mitigation that do make a big difference.

[Jad Abumrad]

These kind of activities are described as what are called feel good conservation. These are an action that make people feel like they're helping to save the planet, but they don't have a real impact.

[Rachel Cusick]

Hmm. I had a similar question.

[Latif Nasser]

I don't know, the more I talk to Claudia, the more I think they do do something, just a different kind of something.

[Claudia Gibe]

You know, one piece we didn't talk about is everybody spoke about how the people around them in their community responded to this project really, really positively and.

[Latif Nasser]

Even beyond Greg's community. You know, there's even a classroom in Spain now.

[Greg Noel]

My name is Jaime Penades.

[Latif Nasser]

I'm a biologist from Spain using Greg's methods.

[Jaime Penades]

My name is ina Gael.

[Latif Nasser]

I'm 15 years old to raise baby sharks.

[Claudia Gibe]

So instead of having like butterflies, you would have a baby shark in your classroom.

[Jaime Penades]

My name is ignacio and I'm 16 Paula and I'm 17 years old. I'm 14 years old.

[Latif Nasser]

And in a way, it's not what's happening inside those shark tanks that matters, it's what's happening inside those kids.

[Jaime Penades]

Honestly, I was like, concerned about how are we going to take care of them. I used to think of sharks as mainly dangerous. At first I thought of sharks as big and scary creatures. And now that I've been taking care of five of them, I'm pretty much relaxed.

[Rachel Cusick]

People have been taught to fear sharks.

[Latif Nasser]

Chris Lowe, again, our shark scientist from the very beginning of this week.

[Rachel Cusick]

So the cool thing for me is if we've taught people to fear sharks, we can also unteach them to fear sharks, to appreciate the animal, the wonder.

[Jad Abumrad]

Of the complexity of their lives and the complexity of their biology.

[Greg Noel]

You know, we need to change, change our concept. Get away from the monster image. They're not monsters at all.

[Jaime Penades]

Butterflies or sharks? Sharks. Definitely sharks. They are more interesting. Yeah, same here. I think I would prefer sharks over butterflies.

[Lulu Miller]

Well, that is a wrap for our.

[Rachel Cusick]

Week of sharks, big giant whale shark size. Thank you to Rachel Cusick for bringing this wild idea to us and doing dozens of interviews to bring it to life.

[Lulu Miller]

Thanks also to our editorial ground control, Pat Walters, for wrangling so many sharks.

[Rachel Cusick]

This episode was reported and produced by Rachel Cusick, edited by Pat Walters, fact checked by Diane Kelly, with mixing help from Jeremy Bloom and original music by Alan Gaffinski. And if somehow you are still yearning for even more shark stories going into the weekend. Terrestrials, our kids show hosted by Lulu, has such a beautiful episode on the Greenland shark, which is the oldest of sharks. Like the individuals live impossibly long.

[Lulu Miller]

It's pretty neat. You can go find that on the Radiolab for Kids feed. The episode is called the Sea Troll. And one more thing, we want to give a huge thanks to everyone who supports Radiolab, especially right now, everyone who's a part of the Lab, our membership program. Your support makes big projects like this possible and we are so grateful.

[Rachel Cusick]

And if you aren't a member yet or are thinking about giving more, this is the perfect time to take the plunge. Because if you join or re up now, you will receive a really cool.

[Lulu Miller]

Gift, a limited edition Week of Sharks hat designed by the awesome Maine based artist and surfer Ty Williams. It's so beautiful and fun and it gives you a chance to show the world you support public radio in the form of Radiolab.

[Rachel Cusick]

It's available to everyone who joins the Lab this month, even for as little as seven bucks a month, you can.

[Lulu Miller]

[e-mail] join existing members. Check your email for details and thank you so much. All right, that is really it. We're still stalling. I don't want to end this thing. It's been so fun. But have a great weekend. Stay equal parts open and curious as you are wary of the shadows in the water and beyond.

[Michelle]

Hi, I'm Michelle and I'm from Richardson, Texas and here are our staff credits. Radiolab was created by Jad Apumrod and is edited by Thorin Wheeler. Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser are our co hosts. Dylan Keith is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Bressler, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Rebecca Lack, Maria Paz Gutierrez, Sindhunyana Sambandan, Matt Kielty, Annie McKeown, Alex Neeson, Sarah Sarah Sandbach, Anisa Vispe, Arian Wack, Pat Walters, Molly Webster, Jessica Yuck with help from Rebecca Rand. Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, Anna Pujol Mazzini and Natalie Middleton. Hi, my name is Ana and I'm calling from Somerville, Massachusetts. Leadership support for Radiolab science programming is provided by the Simons foundation and the John Templeton Foundation. Sunday Educational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

[Nick Dulvey]

NYC now delivers the most up to date local news from WNYC in Gothamist every morning, midday and evening with three updates a day. Listeners get breaking news, top headlines and in depth coverage from across New York City. By sponsoring programming like NYC now. You'll reach our community of dedicated listeners with premium messaging and an uncluttered audio experience. Visit sponsorship.wnyc.org to get in touch and find out more.