Bigger Than Bacon

Summary

Radiolab: "Bigger Than Bacon"

Release Date: May 10, 2016
Hosts: Jad Abumrad, Robert Krulwich
Produced by: WNYC Studios
Guests & Contributors: Molly Webster, Michel Versluis, Nancy Knowlton, Todd Mainprize, Dave Stein, and others

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Overview

In this curiosity-driven episode, Radiolab investigates an oceanic mystery rooted in an unexpected place: the crackling, sizzling noise heard above the watery marshes of South Carolina, and under the surface of the world’s oceans. What starts as an unexplained sound—a noise "bigger than bacon," reminiscent of Rice Krispies or frying bacon—leads the hosts from World War II submarine warfare to the science of snapping shrimp, spectacular weaponized bubbles, and even a whimsical adventure into the world of giant soap bubbles in city streets. Along the way, the episode uncovers not only the physics behind one of nature’s smallest but mightiest creatures, but also how that same science is being used to open up radical new medical futures.

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Main Themes & Purpose

• Uncovering the source of a mysterious underwater sound: A journey to decipher a crackling, popping noise detected on docks and via naval sonar.
• The science and power of the snapping (pistol) shrimp: Understanding the biological and physical marvel that produces one of the ocean’s loudest natural sounds.
• Weaponized bubbles and their broader applications: How shrimp physics inspired military camouflage, Hollywood, and even cutting-edge brain surgery.
• The joy and psychology of blowing really big soap bubbles: Exploring creativity, transformation, and the unexpectedly profound life of "bubble people".

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Mysterious Sound (00:48–04:06)

• Molly Webster revisits her family's new home in the marshes of South Carolina, describing the unique "crackling" sound rising from the water—likened by scientists to frying bacon or twigs crackling in a fire.
  • Quote: "That crackling sound—what is that?" — Molly Webster (03:02)
• The underwater recording is played, amplifying the intensity ("bigger than bacon" per Robert Krulwich at 03:58).

Submarine Warfare, Classified Documents, and Shrimp as 'Sound Camouflage' (04:06–07:02)

• During WWII, US Navy submarines using sonar begin picking up this mysterious sound, which sometimes interferes with sonar operations (04:41).
• The military hires biologists (notably Martin Johnson) to identify and understand the sound, discovering it originates from snapping shrimp (pistol shrimp) (05:27).
• The US Navy leverages dense shrimp beds as sonic "invisibility cloaks" to hide submarines and even installed speakers to simulate snapping shrimp noises (06:46–06:54).
  • Quote: "It was sound camo." — Robert Krulwich (06:56)

The Remarkable Biology & Physics of the Snapping Shrimp (07:02–14:25)

• The snapping shrimp’s snap is not the two sides of its claw clapping together, as commonly imagined.
  • Quote: "That turns out not to be true." — Jad Abumrad (08:45)
• Michel Versluis's Lab Discovery (09:55): Using high-speed cameras, scientists observe that the claw's snap creates an ultra-fast jet of water at 60 mph, generating a cavitation bubble.
• Bubble Physics (11:42–14:06):
  • The bubble forms from water suddenly vaporizing, quickly expands, then collapses violently, generating:
    • Temperatures up to 5,000°C (surface of the sun!)
    • A flash of plasma (light)
    • A shockwave capable of stunning or killing prey
  • Quote: "The pressure rises and the temperature rises...5,000 degrees." — Michel Versluis (13:03)
  • Quote: "It's amazing how evolution has created this kind of sonic weapon." — Michel Versluis (13:58)
• The shrimp’s "superhero" powers prompt musings about Marvel characters and the limits of harnessing "shrimp bubble" power (14:25–15:49).

Bubbles Beyond the Sea: From Hollywood to Medicine (15:49–25:00)

• Hollywood Reference: Keanu Reeves movie about powerful bubbles (15:21), poking fun at science’s leap into fiction.
• Medical Applications (20:34–25:00):
  • Transforming Bubble Science: Michel Versluis describes how knowledge from shrimp bubbles is used in medicine, specifically to open the blood-brain barrier using microbubbles and focused ultrasound.
  • Todd Mainprize (neurosurgeon): Describes a cutting-edge Toronto procedure where microbubbles and ultrasound momentarily open the blood-brain barrier, enabling precise delivery of chemotherapy to brain tumors.
    • Quote: "We're using sound to turn the bubbles into little dancing drill bits—and drill through the wall." — Jad Abumrad (25:00)

Notable Segment: Opening the Blood Brain Barrier

• [21:15] — Explanation of microbubble-based medical breakthroughs.

Giant Soap Bubbles: The Human Drive for "Bigger" (27:11–40:21)

• Dave Stein’s Story (27:25–37:01):

  • Architect-turned-bubble-inventor Dave Stein tells how witnessing his daughter’s fascination with bubbles led him to invent "the bubble thing," enabling creation of massive, mesmerizing soap bubbles.
    • Quote: "For any given object, there is a larger size such that the nature of the object is transformed." — Robert Krulwich (Stein's Law, 27:53)
  • Stein details his design journey, the serendipitous invention, and how blowing giant bubbles became both his career and a form of public, ephemeral art.
    • Quote: "It's true every bubble will collapse—but there's no blame, and nobody got hurt." — Robert Krulwich (36:56)
    • Memorable moment: "That's about the size of a killer whale!" — Robert Krulwich, witnessing a midnight Manhattan bubble spectacle (38:13)

• The Joy and Social Power of Bubbles (38:10–39:29):

  • Night bubble-blowing in Manhattan draws crowds, delight, and transforms urban space.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote/Moment | |-----------|--------------------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:58 | Robert Krulwich | "Wow, that's big! It's big. Bigger than bacon." | | 04:43 | Molly Webster | "It was like a marine invisibility cloak." | | 06:56 | Robert Krulwich | "It was sound camo." | | 13:03 | Michel Versluis | "The pressure rises and the temperature rises...5,000 degrees. The surface of the sun is also 5,000 degrees." | | 13:58 | Michel Versluis | "It's amazing how evolution has created this kind of sonic weapon." | | 25:00 | Jad Abumrad | "So they're using sound to turn the bubbles into little dancing drill bits—and drill through the wall." | | 27:53 | Robert Krulwich (Stein's Law) | "For any given object, there is a larger size such that the nature of the object is transformed." | | 36:56 | Robert Krulwich | "It's true every bubble will collapse—but there's no blame, and nobody got hurt." | | 38:13 | Robert Krulwich | "That's about the size of a killer whale!" | | 39:29 | Molly Webster | "Not silly, it's very wonderful. Very wonderful." |

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:48 — Episode begins, sound mystery introduced
• 03:47 — Underwater "bacon" sound played
• 04:12 — WWII and Navy's sonar/interference described
• 05:27 — Discovery: Snapping shrimp identified as sound source
• 09:55 — High-speed camera revelation: the violent bubble
• 13:03 — The bubble's physical extremes ("5,000 degrees—the sun!")
• 15:49–16:20 — Bubble science and real-world applications transition
• 21:15–25:00 — Medical breakthrough: using bubbles to open the blood-brain barrier
• 27:11–37:01 — Dave Stein and the "bubble thing" invention
• 38:10–39:29 — The magic of city bubbles and public joy

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Conclusion

Radiolab’s “Bigger Than Bacon” episode is a rollicking ride across disciplines and scales—from invisible underwater battles to medical frontiers and sidewalk wonders—unveiling how curiosity about a simple sound leads to a deeper appreciation for the marvels of nature, technology, and human creativity. Through crackling shrimp, explosions of plasma, and shimmering city bubbles, the episode is both playful and awe-inspiring, true to Radiolab’s energetic, musical, and ever-curious tone.

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Recommended for listeners fascinated by:

• The weird, surprising science behind everyday mysteries
• Evolution’s creative solutions
• The interplay between physics, biology, and human invention
• Stories that span from deep-sea warfare to joyful sidewalk art

Transcript

[Molly Webster]

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[Jad Abumrad]

Okay. All right. Okay. All right.

[Robert Krulwich]

You're listening to Radiolab Radio Lab from wnyc.

[Jad Abumrad]

Hey, I'm Jad Abumrad.

[Robert Krulwich]

I'm Robert Krulwich.

[Jad Abumrad]

This is Radiolab. Today we have a mystery that is.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Vanishingly tiny, shockingly hot, and manages to.

[Jad Abumrad]

Combine submarines, Keanu Reeves, Red Lobster and Game of Thrones.

[Robert Krulwich]

And of course, our producer, Molly Webster, and many members of her family.

[Molly Webster]

Hello.

[Michel Versluis]

Hello.

[Molly Webster]

Hello.

[Michel Versluis]

Hello.

[Molly Webster]

Where are the children?

[Robert Krulwich]

So you want to begin in the.

[Molly Webster]

Beautiful state of South Carolina. South Carolina.

[Jad Abumrad]

It's on a pier.

[Molly Webster]

Yeah. Is my radio gear waterproof?

[Jad Abumrad]

Yes.

[Molly Webster]

No. On a dock. Okay, so we're gonna walk down to the dock, which is just like this place where they all put boats in the water. And that's where we always take a lack a. Like a bombo. Shut up. I'm gonna explain what a dock is. Okay. My parents recently moved to this marshy, swampy area near the Intracoastal Waterway, which is like a connecting series of salty channels. And we grew up in Ohio, and so this is like a total landscape than what we grew up in. Okay. And those little people would be my nieces and nephews. I'm riding my bike so we can ride it back. You hear that, America? Those are my children. Getting along and compromising. That would be Chrissy Webster, one of my sisters. Yeah, we sound a lot alike. Anyway, so, okay, so this is the story. The story is, so when my parents first moved there, I remember going out on the docks with my dad, and we were sort of looking at the beautiful marsh, right?

[Jad Abumrad]

And.

[Molly Webster]

And there was this really weird sound, like, coming off the water. Water. I recently took my nieces and nephew out to see if they could hear It. Okay, we're gonna be. I'm in position. Okay. So we're not gonna move, and we're not gonna squeak. We're not gonna talk. We're not gonna talk. Okay, so we leaned down off the dock. Okay, ready? Now we're gonna see if we can hear it. Oh, my gosh. I hear.

[Jad Abumrad]

That crackling sound.

[Molly Webster]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

What is that?

[Molly Webster]

That was the question. Quiet time. What does it sound like? It sounds like Rice Krispies. Yeah, Most of the scientists you talk to say it sounds like bacon frying or twigs crackling in a fire.

[Robert Krulwich]

Maybe you have a large Perrier factory.

[Molly Webster]

Just up the water. Yeah, I would say that, except there's no bubbles popping, like on the.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh, so it's not a gaseous emission. It's a clickety clack.

[Molly Webster]

Let me just play you a better recording.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah, pull it up.

[Molly Webster]

Wait, do I have to put it through the producer PC? Wait.

[Jad Abumrad]

No, wait. Here we go.

[Molly Webster]

This is actually an underwater recording.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh, my God. Oh, gosh. In a teeny world, that would be.

[Molly Webster]

Like the fourth of July. Yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

Wow, that's big. It's big. Bigger than bacon.

[Jad Abumrad]

Bigger than bacon.

[Robert Krulwich]

Bigger than bacon.

[Molly Webster]

It depends on how much bacon you're frying.

[Jad Abumrad]

So what? So, all right. What is this sound? What is it?

[Molly Webster]

This sound is a very tiny. No, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Let me just back it up a second.

[Michel Versluis]

Well, the story started in the 40s. That's Michel Verslaus, professor of physical acoustics and medical acoustics at the University of Twente in the Netherlands.

[Molly Webster]

Basically, what he said is World War II is the first war where we're, like, really using submarines and sonar. And so you've got all of these US Navy submarines down deep in the ocean, and they're, like, listening out for the enemy. But what happens is all they hear is this, like, crazy crackling sound, the.

[Michel Versluis]

Sound levels that were measured. So this sound is very, very intense.

[Molly Webster]

He says in some instances, it was actually interfering with the sonar.

[Michel Versluis]

That was a bit of a problem. Yeah.

[Molly Webster]

So I found a classified document that was declassified right after the war where the Navy, they actually hired this. They actually hired this scientist, this guy named Martin Johnson. This is in California, I believe it.

[Michel Versluis]

Was in San Diego at Scripps.

[Molly Webster]

They hired this guy to figure out what the. Is the sound like. What is the sound we're hearing, like, all over the ocean?

[Jad Abumrad]

What is it already?

[Molly Webster]

Chad's like, just tell me what the damn sound is.

[Michel Versluis]

Yes.

[Molly Webster]

Well, it turns out I don't want to go too fast.

[Michel Versluis]

Here it was noted in those years that that sounds originated from the shrimpy.

[Molly Webster]

Shrimp is shrimpy. It was a shrimp. Oh, yeah. The shrimp is called a snapping shrimp or a pistol shrimp. Ooh, pistol shrimp.

[Jad Abumrad]

I like that. Pistol.

[Molly Webster]

And interestingly, I found these, like, old Navy recordings that they would give to the Navy guys where they had to learn the sounds they were hearing coming in through the ship and through the sonar.

[Robert Krulwich]

In your work with the expendable radio sonobuoy, you will probably hear many sounds other than submarine sounds.

[Molly Webster]

It was like, this is the sound of a snapping shrimp.

[Robert Krulwich]

Shrimp. It produces a harsh clicking noise.

[Molly Webster]

And I was like, okay, shrimp, sonar. Cool. I get it. Thought maybe it would end there. And then I found what felt to me to be a crazy article, which was this newspaper clipping from 1946. Basically says shrimps helped win the war.

[Jad Abumrad]

What?

[Molly Webster]

And I was like, what? And it's about how the American Navy admitted that one of their tactical things during World War II was that they would hide their submarines in the beds of these shrimp so, like, the Japanese submarines couldn't detect our ships.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh, my goodness.

[Molly Webster]

So it was like a marine invisibility cloak.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yes.

[Molly Webster]

And according to Michel, the US Would.

[Michel Versluis]

Also put speakers on the hull of the ships to simulate snapping shrimp.

[Molly Webster]

Wait, what?

[Robert Krulwich]

It was sound camo.

[Molly Webster]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

So wait, wait, wait, wait. Are these shrimp. Are they, like normal shrimp cocktail type shrimp?

[Michel Versluis]

Well, they're about 5 centimeters, 2 inches.

[Molly Webster]

So, like, smaller than a shrimp I might eat?

[Michel Versluis]

Well, it depends what sort of shrimp you eat.

[Molly Webster]

I don't know. Whatever.

[Dave Stein]

Whatever.

[Molly Webster]

Red lobsters. There's no.

[Jad Abumrad]

I don't know. Wait a second. If they're that small, how are they making that sound?

[Molly Webster]

That is an excellent question. Wait, where do you think the sound comes from? I'm thinking the shrimpies are eating their food, and the noise is their little teeth. Ooh, shrimpy teeth. I think it, for me, I think it comes from their, like, snappy claw thingies. And that's what you would think, right? Like, especially if you look at these things up close, they have two front claws, and the claws aren't the same on each side. That's Nancy Knowlton, a marine biologist, snapping shrimp expert.

[Jad Abumrad]

There's a claw that's specialized for pinching.

[Molly Webster]

And that claw is tiny. And a claw that's specialized for. And that claw is, like, exponentially bigger. It's like 10 times 20, maybe three times bigger. It's quite a bit bigger. And so they use it to defend themselves against potential predators or competitors. They're very territorial. She Says when one shrimp runs into.

[Jad Abumrad]

Another shrimp, they can get into these.

[Molly Webster]

Prolonged snapping matches where they snap at each other to show me, me, me.

[Jad Abumrad]

Me, me, who's bigger and who's stronger.

[Molly Webster]

Me. Okay, fine.

[Jad Abumrad]

And they can pretty much judge how.

[Molly Webster]

Big they are by the power of the snap. All of which is to say, my niece Sophie's guest, I think it comes from their, like snappy claw thingies. Is like. Yeah, of course. It's like the two sides of the claw just like snapping together.

[Michel Versluis]

It's just like you snap your fingers like this.

[Jad Abumrad]

Just a snap snap. But that turns out not to be true.

[Molly Webster]

So not true.

[Michel Versluis]

Two things were wrong basically with that picture. I don't know if you have ever tried to clap your hands in the swimming pool underwater, but it's very difficult.

[Molly Webster]

Yeah, you don't feel very smart when you try. It doesn't work.

[Michel Versluis]

But there's not a lot of sound. And that is because there's a lubrication layer of water in between that prevents direct mechanical contact.

[Molly Webster]

Yes. There's this lubricating layer between the two claw halves and it makes snapping hard.

[Michel Versluis]

And the second problem was that the.

[Molly Webster]

Sound just seemed way too loud. Like when they measured the decibel level of a snake single snap.

[Michel Versluis]

It's about 220 decibels of sound that, that can be produced by, by a single snap.

[Molly Webster]

To put that in context, that is basically equivalent to. A jet plane from just one snap.

[Michel Versluis]

But it's very impulsive. So it's in a very, very short duration.

[Molly Webster]

But still it's like one of the loudest sounds in the ocean. So Michelle was like, there's probably more than snapping going on here.

[Michel Versluis]

Yeah.

[Molly Webster]

So, okay, so it was 1999.

[Michel Versluis]

We had a new high speed camera in our lab.

[Molly Webster]

And so they're like, okay, we're gonna point this camera at the shrimp and.

[Michel Versluis]

See what happens when this shrimp snaps its claw.

[Molly Webster]

So they take the little shrimps and they glue screws on their butts.

[Robert Krulwich]

They glue screws on their butts?

[Molly Webster]

Yeah. And they screw them into tiny platforms in like a little aquarium so that.

[Michel Versluis]

They were fixed in space. And that was important because it happens.

[Molly Webster]

In like a microsecond and they need to keep it still so the camera can just focus right on the claw.

[Michel Versluis]

And to do the experiment, what we needed to do was to tickle them a little bit with the paintbrush.

[Molly Webster]

Okay, you tickled them with a paintbrush?

[Michel Versluis]

Yeah, exactly. Then they cock their claws and then they snap.

[Molly Webster]

And then it fires. And the camera captures the entire Thing with like thousands of frames per second.

[Jad Abumrad]

And did they see anything?

[Molly Webster]

They did see something.

[Jad Abumrad]

What is it?

[Molly Webster]

When they looked at the footage of the moment just after it snaps in super slow mo, we saw a very.

[Michel Versluis]

Blurry object in front of the shrimp.

[Molly Webster]

What blurry? It was just like bloppy, blurry something.

[Michel Versluis]

It was bloppy, blurry. I mean, it turned out that we were sort of out of focus.

[Molly Webster]

So they refocus the camera, they do the same thing, they tickle the shrimp. The claw snaps. And they see that when the claw snaps, they see this like bubble in front of the shrimp claw. And it turns out that it's that bubble that's causing the noise and so much undersea turmoil. The bubble is at the root of everything. Okay. And with the high speed camera, they were sort of able to see how it all breaks down and it sort of unfolds like this.

[Michel Versluis]

What actually happens when this claw closes is that the water that is in between these claws is squeezed out at high speed. The typical speed can be up to 60 miles per hour.

[Molly Webster]

Like as fast as a car goes.

[Michel Versluis]

Oh, yes, yes.

[Molly Webster]

So this jet of water shoots out like 60 miles per hour. And what happens is like behind the jet is that this like empty space is created like a little void in the ocean. And all the water molecules in that space, cause they're like, woo, look at all this room. They start to expand outwards and essentially they just become like a little gas bubble.

[Jad Abumrad]

They actually change from liquid to gas.

[Molly Webster]

Yeah, they actually go from like liquid is like tightly packed molecules. And then as they spread out, they become like gaseous and they create this like little gas bubble pocket in the middle of the huge ocean. And as they have all the space, they like get bigger and bigger and bigger until the ocean's like, nope, like microseconds later the ocean starts pushing back in on this bubble. And all the little, the little air molecules in this bubble have nowhere to go. And they're getting forced closer and closer together. And so they really want to get away from each other. All those air molecules, but you're pushing them together really hard. And since they can't get away from each other, the energy builds up super, super huge.

[Michel Versluis]

And the pressure rises and the temperature rises, really rises 5,000 degrees. The surface of the sun is also 5,000 degrees.

[Molly Webster]

And the gas that's inside the bubble turns to plasma.

[Michel Versluis]

And that plasma emits a very short, intense flash of light.

[Molly Webster]

And then the bubble implodes. And then like a microsecond later.

[Michel Versluis]

It generates a shock Wave. And that shockwave will basically kill or stun any prey that is nearby.

[Robert Krulwich]

Somebody from the college of exaggeration graduated.

[Molly Webster]

This particular explanation because you've got this teeny little animal with an enormous bubble as hot as the sun. And then I think, oh, yeah, okay.

[Michel Versluis]

It's fairly crazy, but it's amazing how evolution has created this kind of sonic weapon.

[Molly Webster]

So basically, yes, shrimps, they're like super awesome because they have this claw that generates huge bubbles of heat. And it's like, don't mess with the shrimp because it's a black belt.

[Jad Abumrad]

Wow. So it's spitting out light and hot, hot, hot temperatures.

[Molly Webster]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

Does that mean that Kai.

[Molly Webster]

The sun thing is crazy.

[Jad Abumrad]

That's crazy.

[Molly Webster]

I feel like it should be like a Marvel character.

[Jad Abumrad]

Totally.

[Molly Webster]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

Cuz if you scaled this up, the bubble would be the size of a basketball in human scale.

[Molly Webster]

Mm.

[Jad Abumrad]

What could I do with a basketball of sun, heat and light? I could rule the world with that.

[Robert Krulwich]

Could you imagine?

[Molly Webster]

I'll be having that cat. Hey, hey, hey.

[Jad Abumrad]

That last piece of cake is mine.

[Molly Webster]

That was what? When my sister was hanging off the dock, she asked, like, can we use this to power like, the world or something? No. The answer was no. But the same physical processes that are involved in the shrimp bubbles. Right. So like the temperature and the heat that bubbles can create. Researchers became really excited about, is there a way to harness this bubble power?

[Michel Versluis]

Yeah, there's also a Hollywood movie.

[Dave Stein]

I think I did it.

[Molly Webster]

Is it stable?

[Michel Versluis]

On powerful bubbles With Keanu Reeves, I believe.

[Molly Webster]

Really? Really?

[Michel Versluis]

Yes, yes.

[Molly Webster]

There is enough energy in this glass of water to power the city of Chicago for weeks.

[Robert Krulwich]

They went too far.

[Michel Versluis]

Boom.

[Jad Abumrad]

Boom. Taken with the weapon possibilities.

[Molly Webster]

Yeah. My nephew got excited about this too. My name's Oliver, but I hate to tell you, but I don't think there are any.

[Jad Abumrad]

You mean you can't like, make a bigger claw, put it on a sub?

[Molly Webster]

No, sorry, guys. Well, there is this one thing where researchers are thinking about using bubbles. And this goes beyond the shrimp bubbles in a way that could save lives.

[Dave Stein]

My name is Joseph Thacker and I'm calling from Columbia, South Carolina.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Radiolab is supported in part by the.

[Dave Stein]

Alfred P. Sloan foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. More information about [e-mail].

[Molly Webster]

Radiolab is supported by BILT. Nobody wants to pay rent, but if you have to, BILT works to make it more worthwhile. By paying rent through Bilt, you can earn flexible points that can be redeemed toward hundreds of hotels and airlines. A future rent payment, your next lift ride, and more. But it doesn't stop there. You can dine out at your favorite local restaurants and earn additional points, get VIP treatment at certain fitness studios, and enjoy exclusive experiences just for Built Members Every month earn points on rent and around your neighborhood, wherever you call home, by going to joinbuilt.com Radiolab that's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T.com Radiolab Hey, I'm Molly Webster and this is an ad by BetterHelp. So it happens every year. The seasons are changing, the days are getting shorter, and basically once it becomes dark outside of my window, I feel like the rest of the world disappears and I'm just alone and there's nothing left to do but watch television. This November, Better Help is asking everyone to reach out to our people. That could be your family, your friends, your neighbors, and to resist this call of the cocoon. And yeah, reaching out can take some courage. I've got text messages from January I haven't responded to and you know what? I'm gonna write em back right now. Hi, sorry I've been missing. How are you? Why don't we all do this sooner? Therapy is the same way. BetterHelp makes it easier to take that first step. You just fill out a short questionnaire and they find a licensed therapist who they think you'll like. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com Radiolab that's betterhelp.com Radiolab.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Radiolab is supported by Rippling. Finance teams often spend weeks chasing receipts, reconciling spreadsheets and fixing errors across disconnected spend tools. This can be frustrating. And that's not software as a service. That's sad software as a disservice. If you've been thinking about replacing stitched together tech stacks with one platform for all departments, rippling can help. Rippling is a unified platform for global hr, payroll, IT and finance, helping people replace their mess of cobbled together tools with one system. Designed to help give leaders clarity, speed and control. By uniting employees, teams and departments in one system, Rippling works to remove the bottlenecks, busywork and silos in business software. With Rippling, you can choose to run hr, IT and finance operations as one, or pick and choose the products that best fill the gaps. Right now you can get 6 months free when you go to rippling.com Radiolab learn more at r I p p l-I n g.com Radiolab terms and conditions apply. Radiolab is supported by Planet Visionaries, the podcast created in partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative. The show is hosted by Alex Honnold, who you may recognize from Free Solo, where he climbed El Capitan without ropes. Now he's turning his focus to the biggest challenge of protecting the only planet we've got. Every episode brings you stories that prove climate optimism isn't naive, it's a strategy. The episodes span the globe, from Arctic scientists and Amazon forest guardians to entrepreneurs reimagining fashion and food systems. You'll hear from explorers, scientists, activists, and storytellers who are working to reshape the future in practical human ways. In one episode, Alex sits down with wildlife photographer Bertie Gregory to discuss how animals can teach humans resiliency, empathy, and hope in partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative. Check out Planet Visionaries Listen or watch on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Molly Webster]

This is Radiolab.

[Robert Krulwich]

And now we're gonna go back to the story from Molly Webster. So you were saying people here are trying to use bubble power to save lives.

[Molly Webster]

Yeah. So when I was talking to Michelle Verslaus, we're talking on the phone, and he explains all the crazy bubbly stuff, and somehow, like, in the middle of the conversation, he just said, if you think the shrimp bubbles are cool. Everything we know about the shrimp bubbles can also be adapted to use bubbles in the body.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh.

[Molly Webster]

And I was just like, what?

[Jad Abumrad]

Wait, wait, bubbles in the body? Isn't that.

[Robert Krulwich]

Isn't that an embolism, though?

[Molly Webster]

Totally. I had the same thought. Like when divers get the bends or when they tap bubbles out of IV lines and stuff.

[Michel Versluis]

But these are very, very small bubbles, smaller than red blood cells.

[Molly Webster]

According to Verslaus, they're, like one twentieth the size of human hair, and they are completely harmless. And he told me about how in Toronto, and they actually just did this for the first time in November on a patient, they're using bubbles to get across the blood. Brain barrier, huh?

[Jad Abumrad]

What exactly is the brain bar? Blood brain barrier. Is it cells or is it tissue?

[Molly Webster]

Yes, super, super tightly packed cells. It sort of sits between the bloodstream and the brain. It's like this protective wall, and it keeps out all of the nasty stuff. So it keeps out any bacteria or viruses that would be in your bloodstream. Can't get past the wall to get into your brain. I kind of keep thinking of it as, like, I've never actually watched Game of Thrones except for, like, one episode, and in it there was this giant wall.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah.

[Molly Webster]

To protect civilization from sort of all the Bad things, the wild things. And it was made of ice, and it went up forever. I've never fallen before. I kind of feel like that wall in Game of Thrones is like the barrier between the rest of the body and the brain.

[Jad Abumrad]

But you said it's there to protect the brain, so why would you want to punch a hole in it? Well, you can imagine that if somebody has a brain tumor and we want to deliver chemicals in there that we think can help fight the tum, those chemicals the brain does not want in there.

[Molly Webster]

So the blood brain barrier can create problems. According to Todd Meadprise.

[Jad Abumrad]

I'm a neurosurgeon at Sunnybrook.

[Molly Webster]

He's part of the team in Toronto that's using this new bubble technique. And here's how it works. Okay, so say you've got a tumor on the right side of your brain, right above your ear. So Mainprize and his team will stick you in a chair, and then they'll put a helmet on you.

[Jad Abumrad]

Special helmet. This helmet has 1,024 ultrasound transducers. And we aim the,024 all to the.

[Molly Webster]

Same spot right on the spot at the wall where the tumor sits just on the other side, just out of reach.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay. So that all the ultrasound waves kind of focus at that one area. And then we inject the bubbles. How many bubbles are in a dose?

[Molly Webster]

Like, hundreds of thousands. So they just put an IV in your arm, and the bubbles go in and they'll go, like, into your arm, like over your shoulder, into your heart, to your lungs, back to your heart. Eventually, some of them will get up to the brain.

[Jad Abumrad]

We know it takes approximately 28 seconds from the time we inject the bubble into her arm vein to by the time they start going into her brain.

[Molly Webster]

And eventually some of those bubbles get up to the blood brain barrier, that wall, to the spot where that laser beam is focused, that specific spot that the tumor is sitting on the other side of. And when they cross paths with the that beam.

[Jad Abumrad]

The ultrasound waves causes the microbubbles to oscillate in size. They'll go big and small, big and small.

[Molly Webster]

Big, small, big, small, big, small, big, small.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oscillate in size.

[Molly Webster]

I think of it as like a bubble dance party. So at this really specific part in the brain, and it can be smaller than, like, 1 millimeter by 1 millimeter square, all these bubbles are dancing. And what that does is it causes the wall, that specific spot, to almost loosen. And so, like a little, like a window of space or a little hole is created. In that wall. And if you happen to have chemotherapy in your blood, which you will, because we'll give it to you ahead of time the minute that hole is open. The idea is the chemotherapy in your bloodstream would be able to just sort of to flow through that opening and get straight to that brain tumor tissue.

[Jad Abumrad]

So they're using sound to turn the bubbles into little dancing drill bits.

[Molly Webster]

Yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

And drill through the wall.

[Molly Webster]

Yeah.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Wow.

[Jad Abumrad]

Now, the body's a living organism, so over the next six to 12 hours, it will close those gaps. It's transient, meaning it heals itself in about six to 12 hours. And you're saying they tried this on someone already?

[Molly Webster]

Yeah, last November, and they think it went well. One of the things these researchers said was once you're able to open these passageways to the brain, it's not just chemo that can get in there, but, like, suddenly any type of drug you might want to send through can get through. And we've just never had access to the brain before in that way. And there's this question of, like. Like, how will drugs interact with the brain? We kind of don't know. They've never been there before. It's like a whole new frontier. You think shrimp in time is done? Yeah.

[Michel Versluis]

So, I mean, basically all boils down to the same sort of physics of bubbles that we have learned from this shrimp and that we can apply to to many other applications.

[Molly Webster]

It's dinner time. We're gonna put it on the radio so you'll hear it. The people that like shrimp. What if people don't like shrimp? Then they'll just skip it. I can't believe Molly's putting this on the radio. I make no promises that this is going on the radio. Oh, yeah, it is.

[Jad Abumrad]

Molly Webster. This piece was produced by Molly and.

[Robert Krulwich]

Annie McEwan, with help from our guest sound designer, Jeremy Bloom. Special thanks to Kulervo Hinen, James Bird.

[Molly Webster]

Lawrence Crumb and Elliot, Sophie Oliver, and Chrissy, all of them Websters.

[Jad Abumrad]

Next up, a story from our producer, Simon Adler, who. Who got interested in bubbles after Molly found her shrimp piece. He got interested in bubbles, and he managed to find a guy named Dave Stein who has taken bubbling to a whole new level.

[Dave Stein]

Why is a bigger bubble better?

[Robert Krulwich]

I think trying to make things bigger is a function of growing up. I don't know. I. I always thought that this was kind of inherent in the human psyche, is to want to do things bigger and better, and so. Well, maybe we might even make this a Stein's law. Okay.

[Dave Stein]

Stein's law. Of bubble of bubbling.

[Robert Krulwich]

Stein's law of size. That's kind of off the top of my head here, but. But for any given object, there is a larger size such that the nature of the object is transformed.

[Dave Stein]

In simple English, what would that mean? That as something gets bigger, it gets what?

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay, take Jupiter. Okay, gaseous planets. All right, if you make Jupiter bigger and bigger, bigger and bigger, there is a size at which it becomes a star, it ignites, it becomes a sun. It transcends what it was then.

[Dave Stein]

Can a bubble get so big that it's no longer even a bubble?

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, before the invention of the bubble thing, 1984, bubbles we always thought of as being relatively small and relatively round. But as soon as you get up to a certain size, say 5 foot diameter, kind of in that range, now, suddenly they're not round anymore and they don't pop in the same way. People would think of bubbles as popping instantaneously because they're thinking of the little round bubbles from the dime store. And what really happens in very large bubbles, like the ones I and my friends make, the bubble doesn't pop instantaneously. It gets punctured at a certain point and then it rips open like a zipper. And there's a sound to it. It kind of goes like that.

[Dave Stein]

So it's not. It's. So it's not.

[Molly Webster]

It's.

[Robert Krulwich]

From one end of this long bubble to the other.

[Dave Stein]

Can we back up to tell me the story of how you like.

[Robert Krulwich]

Why?

[Dave Stein]

Who were you in 1984 when you're like, I'm gonna make this bubble thing? What motivated all of this?

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, what motivated all of this was I was an architect at the time. I was working, working for Hardy, Holtzman, Pfeiffer, a very fashionable firm downtown.

[Dave Stein]

And he says he spent his days designing these really intricate buildings where, like.

[Robert Krulwich]

Glass staircases meet the stonework of the building at a 45 degree angle, and the roof is going up at another angle.

[Dave Stein]

And it all has to work down to the 16th of an inch.

[Robert Krulwich]

I wasn't very happy at it, actually. In fact, I used to worry about structural collapse all the time.

[Dave Stein]

He says he'd be walking down the streets of Manhattan imagining some building he was building in his mind.

[Robert Krulwich]

Say, the addition to the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts.

[Dave Stein]

So he's imagining this building, and then all of a sudden his mind would shift to worry about that building collapsing. And he says this just kept happening with every project.

[Robert Krulwich]

All these buildings kept just crashing to the ground.

[Dave Stein]

Like, did this keep you up at night? Did you Wake up.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah, I had to. I felt that as a architect, it's my responsibility to imagine all the possible.

[Dave Stein]

He says it became this not so healthy occupational obsession. And why?

[Michel Versluis]

Why?

[Robert Krulwich]

All right, that's a good question. Let me tell you something. I'm probably getting some of these details wrong, but my grandfather, Clarence Balky, was a metallurgist who had something to do with building the atomic bomb, and so did my uncle. And my mother was quite traumatized by being a daughter of the bomb, so to speak.

[Dave Stein]

Dave says it became part of the family legacy and maybe wormed its way into his psyche and poisoned his work.

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, that's just the way I registered it. What I'm basically trying to say was that I was not really happy as an architect anyway. That summer, 1984, my little daughter Kayla, who was one and a half, saw a man blowing bubbles with one of those little dime store wands. And she was just transfixed. She was transported to another realm, you know, like any kid.

[Dave Stein]

And so Dave says, from that point.

[Robert Krulwich]

On, we were always blowing bubbles, all kinds of small bubbles, medium ones, large ones.

[Dave Stein]

And he says pretty quick he started to wonder, how can we make these bubbles bigger?

[Robert Krulwich]

And we used, you know, we cut out the ends of coffee cans, dipped.

[Dave Stein]

One end in the soap, blew through the other, got maybe a bubble that.

[Robert Krulwich]

Might be a foot, foot in diameter.

[Dave Stein]

Then he tried getting a coat hanger and bending it into a circle, dipping that into a frying pan full of soap.

[Robert Krulwich]

With that, you can make a bubble, maybe two footer or something.

[Dave Stein]

And is your daughter getting more and more excited as the bubbles get bigger, or is this about you?

[Robert Krulwich]

She was getting kind of bored with.

[Dave Stein]

It, actually, but Dave started to get a little obsessed.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yes, that's definitely true. And I was thinking, you know, this is an interesting design problem, maximizing the size of bubbles and how you go about that.

[Dave Stein]

And initially his thought was, and this is kind of everyone's thought when they start thinking about this, you just need a bigger circle, a bigger hoop through which to blow the bubble, like a.

[Robert Krulwich]

Hula hoop with a handle on it. And you would need one of those little plastic swimming pools full of bubble soap, which starts to seem kind of like a lot of soap.

[Dave Stein]

And from a design perspective, like, how do you scale that up? You can't just keep making the hoop and bucket bigger. Like, that seems crazy.

[Robert Krulwich]

So at that point, I was sort of stuck.

[Dave Stein]

But whatever. He was going on with his life designing buildings. But then he says one day in the summer of 1984, I was lying.

[Robert Krulwich]

In bed one morning, I can still remember the pattern of cracks in the ceiling.

[Dave Stein]

The idea hit him like a ton of bubble shaped bricks. Why not have a collapsible hoop?

[Robert Krulwich]

I sort of instantly saw this thing in my mind, which was what we.

[Dave Stein]

Now know as the bubble thing. The bubble thing.

[Robert Krulwich]

And so I. Dave leaps out of.

[Dave Stein]

Bed, heads to the hardware store, buys.

[Robert Krulwich]

His stuff, and I bought the dowel and the chain and the fastenings.

[Dave Stein]

And so hurries home, starts assembling the device. Were you in your kitchen? Where were you when you were doing.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh, you don't do this indoors.

[Dave Stein]

Ultimately, he stepped outside, and what he had in his hands was really nothing more than, like, a stick with a loop of chain attached to it. And one end of the loop, you could kind of slide up and down on the stick so that you could expand and collapse the loop.

[Robert Krulwich]

That's the beauty of this design, to have that control and be able to close it.

[Dave Stein]

Anyway, back in the backyard, I closed the loop. So it was just like a cord, like a straight cord.

[Robert Krulwich]

I dunked it in the bucket of soap. I raised it up, I opened the loop. Right away, this huge bubble tube starts coming out.

[Dave Stein]

The tube stretches for 7, 8ft. He's not sure, but at a certain point, he closes the loop to pinch it off.

[Robert Krulwich]

And now it's a free floating bubble. And it's sailing away over the housetop.

[Dave Stein]

And through the fog.

[Robert Krulwich]

Suddenly, there's this gigantic bubble floating away. The biggest bubble ever blown, I believe.

[Dave Stein]

He says it was somewhere between the size of a refrigerator and a car, iridescent and wobbly, and then suddenly it popped. What did you feel in that moment? Were you Dr. Frankenstein, who had just let this monster out into the world?

[Robert Krulwich]

I got this cold thrill going down my spine. I'll never forget that.

[Dave Stein]

And as he sent more and more of these into the air, pretty soon.

[Robert Krulwich]

People started arriving in their cars and trucks. Everybody was totally astonished. And I thought, this might be my ticket out of architecture.

[Dave Stein]

So Dave was able to patent the bubble thing and made enough money to get out of architecture. And in the process, he transformed bubble blowing from a thing that just like kids do, to this, I don't know, kind of sport where you have, like, bubble athletes.

[Molly Webster]

My name's Gary Perlman. Megan Parker. Rick Findlay.

[Dave Stein]

All over the world in Mexico, they.

[Robert Krulwich]

Call me El Barbrujo.

[Molly Webster]

I currently am the champion, the heavyweight, the big boy.

[Dave Stein]

And people are blowing, like, really big bubbles.

[Molly Webster]

You could picture, say, two 18 wheelers stacked on top of one another.

[Robert Krulwich]

That's about how big the bubble was.

[Dave Stein]

That's a slight exaggeration. But anyway, there are debates going on about what kind of soap to use, which is the best polymer to add to that soap, and what kind of fabric to use for the loop. But despite all this experimentation, pretty much everyone uses a variation of Dave's original idea.

[Robert Krulwich]

These people are sort of my followers.

[Dave Stein]

You see, I find it very interesting that you had this fear of your buildings collapsing. And here you go into this world where all of the things you're making are meant to collapse.

[Robert Krulwich]

Well, here's the thing. It's true that every bubble will collapse, but there's no blame and nobody got hurt. I think we might be able to get some here.

[Dave Stein]

So that night, Dave took me out bubbly.

[Robert Krulwich]

We got baking powder. We have thermometers. We have test strips for measuring ph.

[Dave Stein]

He'd been watching the humidity, said it was okay.

[Robert Krulwich]

But the wind, this amount of wind is usually very difficult.

[Dave Stein]

Not so good.

[Robert Krulwich]

So we'll go down and try to find some shelter.

[Dave Stein]

Okay, so we're on the corner of what, west end and 106th here. Midnight in Manhattan. Pretty much empty. Couple cars, almost no one walking.

[Robert Krulwich]

So now I'm going to dunk it in the soap, and now I'm going to raise it up, and I'm going to open the loop, and I'm going to see if I can make my bubble here.

[Molly Webster]

There it goes.

[Robert Krulwich]

There we go.

[Dave Stein]

Okay, that one's pretty good.

[Robert Krulwich]

Okay, it is sailing along into the intersection.

[Dave Stein]

And that one is now chasing the bubble, Is now chasing the taxi. How big is that one?

[Robert Krulwich]

That's about the size of a killer whale.

[Dave Stein]

I'd say maybe 20ft long.

[Robert Krulwich]

When you get these giant bubbles sailing around among these buildings, it activates the space.

[Dave Stein]

He says it seems to transform the architecture, and it definitely did. Like, it made the city look suddenly beautiful and like a lava lamp and alien. And we got some people, architect, that are now taking videos of them.

[Robert Krulwich]

Gee, look at that one.

[Dave Stein]

Oh, that's a great one.

[Robert Krulwich]

That's the size of a smallish baby elephant, maybe.

[Dave Stein]

Okay. And a taxi has now just done a U turn to watch us and see us. We got a bike messenger who's rubbernecking as he goes by. Even at midnight, an audience just materialized. It's just incredible. Like, everybody. Okay, New Yorkers are asking, and people are stopping, stopping with smiles. And they're. They're like, this taxi has just stopped in the middle of the road to watch you do this. So do you often stop your taxi to look at to look at things totally different.

[Molly Webster]

Things so big. I. I see the small one before, but this is totally different.

[Dave Stein]

I like, like this. And it's so silly, right? It's very silly.

[Molly Webster]

Not silly, it's very wonderful. Very wonderful.

[Dave Stein]

It's very creative.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh, there. That's the size of a killer whale, for sure.

[Dave Stein]

Do you ever feel silly out here?

[Michel Versluis]

I.

[Robert Krulwich]

Sometimes do, but I also sometimes compare myself to my grandmother, and I'm much happier to have invented the giant bubble thing than having invented the bomb. I also think, you know, in a way, I feel like I have started an art form and that is going to go on and evolve.

[Jad Abumrad]

Thanks to producer Simon Adler. And we also want to thank all the Radiolab listeners who came out recently in Blue bubbles with us in Prospect Park, Brooklyn.

[Robert Krulwich]

Message 1.

[Molly Webster]

This is Chrissy Webster, Elliot Oliver and Sophie by Proxy. She's in her friend's house, but we are reading the credits. Radiolab is produced by Chad of Room Red. Dylan Peace is our director of sound design. Dorin Wheeler is. This is senior editor. Jamie York is our senior producer. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Brennan O', Farrell, David Gebl, Matt Kelsey, Robert Krulwich, Katie McEwen, Kenny Mill Latifier, Melissa O', Connell, Kelsey Padgett, Garyann Wack, Molly Webster, with help from Alexander Lee Young, Stephanie Tao, Micah Lewinger. Our fact checkers are Eva Dasher.

[Jad Abumrad]

In.

[Molly Webster]

The shell here, and we're curious about Science End of mess.