Bonus: Wild Animal Dads from Terrestrials

Summary

Radiolab: Wild Animal Dads from Terrestrials (June 18, 2026)
Structured Summary

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Episode Overview

This Radiolab bonus episode, "Wild Animal Dads from Terrestrials," drops just before Father’s Day and explores the fascinating, diverse, and often surprising roles of fatherhood across the animal kingdom. Hosted by Lulu Miller, the episode aims to expand our notion of what it means to be a dad—not only in animal species but by extension in human families as well. Lulu is joined by two dads: Michael and Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque, a biological anthropologist with a specialty in owl monkeys, who together guide listeners on an exuberant "dadventure."

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Redefining Fatherhood: The Owl Monkey Story (04:00–12:32)

• Imaginative Introduction: Listeners are invited to "shrink to the size of a chihuahua" and see the world through the huge eyes of owl monkeys.
• Diverse Families: Lulu notes: "Like snowflakes, no two families are exactly the same...the shape and beauty of a family is limitless." (04:45)
• Owl Monkeys as Model Animal Dads:
  • Unlike many species where fathers are absent or even dangerous, male owl monkeys play a crucial, nurturing role.
  • Dr. Eduardo explains: “It took about half hour that the baby came out of the mother's womb...the father was also very, very close...touching the umbilical cord...” (08:21)
  • Dad’s role: After a week of nursing, the baby transitions to piggybacking on dad for months—grooming, teaching, playing, and comforting. (09:03–09:53)
  • The bond between owl monkey infants and their fathers is actually stronger and longer lasting than that with their mothers (10:19).
• Human Dad’s Parallel: Michael, a human dad, felt awkward and unsure as a new parent, influenced by the societal narrative that dads aren’t naturally nurturing, which he traces to animal comparisons—mainly with chimpanzees (11:04–12:11).

2. Challenging Stereotypes: A New Dad-ucation (12:32–13:41)

• Michael’s revelation after learning about owl monkeys: “Who picked which monkey we were gonna be compared to? And why did they pick chimpanzees? Because if they had picked the owl monkeys, maybe I would have learned something different." (13:41)

3. The Dadventure Continues: Wild Animal Dads (17:54–29:47)

Seahorse Dads (17:54–18:50)

• Male seahorses become pregnant! The female deposits eggs in the male’s pouch, which provides oxygen and nutrition, functioning like a womb.
  • “And then the dad seahorse goes into labor...they just shoot out hundreds of baby seahorses...” (18:02)
• “There goes nature shattering another rule…” – Lulu (18:50)

Poison Dart Frogs (19:32–21:38)

• Tiny fathers ferry tadpoles in single trips on their backs to separate water sources, ensuring resources are not depleted or siblings eaten.
• They sing to attract females to feed the tadpoles: “Playing music to lure food back...that is a toad-a-lia awesome father.” (21:38)

Darwin Frog Dads (21:57–22:47)

• Swallow eggs and store them in their vocal sacs; tadpoles grow inside and eventually walk out of dad’s mouth.
  • “They're literally taking refuge in him.” – Lulu (22:44)
  • “Talking about biting off more than you could chew.” – Lulu (22:48)

Burying Beetle Dads (22:59–25:54)

• Bury dead animals as a nursery, clean, disinfect, and defend them, and even singlehandedly raise large broods if the mom leaves.
  • “So it's like a corpse nursery. It's a corpse crib.” – Michael (23:57)
  • “Show that you care. With antibacterial spray from your derriere.” – Hoot Hoots (24:23)

Chimpanzee Dads, Reconsidered (25:54–26:41)

• Recent studies reveal some chimp dads are affectionate, groom, adopt orphans—busting their “bad dad” stereotype.
  • “Some of those dads groom and cuddle their babies and on rare occasions, have even been observed taking in a baby that isn't theirs.” (26:37)

Jacana Bird Dads (26:41–27:52)

• In these aquatic birds, males are the sole incubators, while aggressive females compete for dads' attention as quality caregivers.

Stickleback Fish (28:06–29:47)

• Male sticklebacks build elaborate underwater nests, attract females, then take over and guard the eggs and offspring.
  • “They’re known as, like underwater architects.” (28:34)
  • The nest is described as “clearly arranged with so much care…here’s another creature where the dad is doing that [nesting].” – Lulu (29:18)

4. The Science of Dad-ness: Brain and Evolution (29:47–31:12)

• Research shows caregiving lights up ancient parts of the brain in dads.
• Evidence suggests the first parental caretaking instincts in vertebrates were male—tracing back to fish.
  • “Get in touch with your inner fish. We all have that kind of biology, and it's really, really old.” – Michael (31:12)

5. Reflections and Takeaways: Expanding the Dad Narrative (31:15–33:17)

• Michael: “It's a kind of new take on dad bod...we’re actually incredibly flexible and capable of connecting in a profound way...our bodies, our brains, are made for this, actually.” (31:23)
• Concludes with a joyful musical ode to dads of all kinds, across species, and celebrates how diverse and loving fatherhood can be.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Like snowflakes, no two families are exactly the same. ...The shape and beauty of a family is limitless.” – Lulu Miller (04:45)
• “Who picked which monkey we were gonna be compared to?” – Michael (13:41)
• “There’s so many different ways to be a dad. There’s a lot of options, and we’re flexible and we can organize and be whatever it is that our kids need.” – Michael (19:05)
• “Show that you care. With antibacterial spray from your derriere.” – Hoot Hoots (24:23)
• “[Owl monkeys have] a stronger...bond to the father than the mother.” – Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque (10:19)
• “Talking about biting off more than you could chew. That's a big fatherly commitment.” – Lulu Miller on Darwin frogs (22:48)
• “Mother Nature… there's a Father Nature as much as there's a Mother Nature.” – Dr. Eduardo (27:51)
• “Get in touch with your inner fish. We all have that kind of biology, and it’s really, really old.” – Michael (31:12)
• Musical number: “Give it up for dads. Come in all shapes and sizes, they're full of surprises...” (31:42–33:17)

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Listener Q&A with Dr. Eduardo (33:17–36:27)

• Owl Monkey vs. Owl: Dr. Eduardo picks owl over owl monkey in a (hypothetical!) fight: “I would be scared of an owl grabbing the owl monkey with its feet and claws.” (33:42)
• Have you hugged an owl monkey? “Back in the day...yes, I've had them in my arms and hold them...It moves you.” (34:04)
• Owl monkeys on roofs: “Owl monkeys do come on the roof, and they like insects and they eat them, and they do the job for us of keeping our roof clean.” (34:35)
• Why are owl monkey toes so long? “Important if you’re walking around in relatively thin branches...it really helps your gripping...” (35:07)
• How do owl monkeys see? “Black and white, for one…pretty detailed skills to detect the variation… They see better than us at night because of specific cells in the eyes.” (35:24)
• Lulu tries Dr. Eduardo’s night vision experiment—her eyesight improves after 10 minutes, but not enough to read a full page (36:27).

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Resources, Additional Info & Final Thoughts

• Dads Michael and Eduardo co-organized conferences on fatherhood in the animal and human world ("Fathers and Fatherhood: From Molecules to Modern Families"), keeping the conversation ongoing.
• Listeners are encouraged to “show some love on the father figures in your life, whoever it is that tells the best dad jokes, AKA the worst jokes in your life.” (38:58)
• Heartwarming listener card: A toucan holding a foam finger says, “Toucan do it. Together we can wing it.” (38:58)
• Next Terrestrials episode will concern king cobras—kids are encouraged to submit art ideas for the episode.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 04:00 – Owl monkey introduction and animal family diversity
• 08:21 – Owl monkey dad’s nurturing behaviors
• 11:04 – Michael’s reflection on “natural” dad roles in humans
• 13:41 – "Who picked which monkey?"—rethinking animal comparisons
• 17:54 – Start of wild animal dad vignettes (seahorse, frogs, beetle, fish, birds)
• 29:47 – Science of fatherly behavior; evolutionary roots
• 33:17 – Children’s Q&A segment with Dr. Eduardo
• 36:27 – Full moon night vision experiment recap by Lulu
• 38:58 – Closing thoughts and listener submissions

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Overall Tone & Experience

Radiolab’s tone throughout is whimsical, curious, and accessible, designed for young listeners (and adults too). The episode blends science with humor, music, and a spirit of celebration and inclusion, emphasizing there are “so many ways to be a dad.” The thoughtful discussion, sound-rich environment, and diverse perspectives make this an engaging journey into the wild and wonderful world of animal dads—and what they can teach us about our own meaning of fatherhood.

Transcript

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[Lulu Miller]

hey friends. Lulu here. I have been working in public radio for over 20 years. I feel so lucky to get to do this job and this is a moment unlike any other. Nearly a year ago, Congress eliminated our federal funding and so many of you stepped up to support Radiolab at that time. Thank you, thank you from the bottom of our hearts. Thank you. But the truth is we just aren't out of the woods yet. There's no sign of federal funding coming back and New York Public Radio, our home station, is currently facing an ongoing shortfall of nearly $3 million. And so I'm coming to you to ask for support. If you are one of those listeners who has never given we see you, we make this for you. We don't want you to have to support it. But again, this is a moment that is really different. If you appreciate our weekly dollop of wonder of stories that we hope make you see the world anew that give you some dinner party fodder or just some quiet escape. Please consider supporting us by joining the Lab and in return we will ship you a fan favorite T shirt with the design of a pro tool session on the front. We have, you know, with little sound waves kind of layered on top. It is peak sound nerd, but the audio ain't peeking. Little sound joke for you there. Anyway, for real, I am so proud that Radiolab is a show on public radio. We are not beholden to any institution. We can report on anyone from Facebook to the government to, you know, the secret underwater sex lives of aquatic animals that they don't necessarily want us to know about. We go there. We are beholden to no one but you. So we're asking you be the public in public radio. Join the lab for the T shirt. The other perks like bonus content and sponsor free episodes or just do it to keep the show going to join the lab and see the T shirt and check everything out. Just go to Radiolab.org join or you just text the word lab to the number 83763 to make your donation. Thank you so much. And on with the show. Hey, friends. Lulu here. And with Father's Day coming up this weekend, I just wanted to drop a special little meditation on dads in the animal world. This is an episode that we are dropping for terrestrials, and I thought some of you might enjoy it because I think it expands our understanding of what father fatherhood can look like. And rest assured, tomorrow is your regularly scheduled Radio Lab drop. So enjoy that and enjoy this dead venture. Okay, here we go.

[Michael]

Wait, you're listening.

[Audience/Staff Announcer]

Okay.

[Children/Listeners]

All right.

[Audience/Staff Announcer]

Okay. All right.

[Lulu Miller]

You're listening to Radiolab for kids. Radio Lab from W N. Yep. 3, 2, 1. Imagine you shrink down to the size of a chihuahua and your eyes grow bigger and bigger and bigger until they take up almost half your head.

[Michael]

And these eyes give you great night vision.

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

So when most of the forest has gone to sleep, you can come out

[Lulu Miller]

to feast, jump and swing and play.

[Michael]

You have become an owl monkey.

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

An owl monkey.

[Lulu Miller]

Now is part where I make you sing the theme song with me.

[Hoot Hoots]

Terrestrials.

[Lulu Miller]

Terrestrials. We are not the worst, we are the best.

[Michael]

Bestials.

[Lulu Miller]

Bestials. You got it.

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

Bestials.

[Michael]

Oh, my.

[Lulu Miller]

Terrestrials is a show where we uncover the strangeness we waiting right here on Earth. I'm your host, Lulu Miller, joined as always by my songbud Hoot Hoots.

[Hoot Hoots]

Who do you think you are?

[Lulu Miller]

Now like snowflakes, no two families are exactly the same. There are families with one parent, Families with a mom and a dad. Families with two moms like mine, families with two dads, families with a non binary parent or a grandparent parent. Like snowflakes, the shape and beauty of a family is limitless. But with Father's Day right around the corner, we wanted to spend some time today shining light on daddy. Hey, lovely to be here.

[Radiolab Sponsor]

Yep, yep.

[Lulu Miller]

Yo, what's up? That's right. We are heading off on a dadventure that will have you swinging high in the trees with owl monkey dads. And burbling deep in the sea with seahorse dads. And leaping and bounding and twirling with such cool frog, bug and bird dads that it just might flip. Woo your understanding of fatherhood, showing you why what it looks like to be a dad is way more rad than we are sometimes taught. And here to guide us on this dadventure are two human dads, hello.

[Michael]

You go first.

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

Nom.

[Lulu Miller]

Dad number one, Michael. He's got a daughter, Mila.

[Michael]

She's 11, almost 12.

[Lulu Miller]

And dad number two.

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

My boys are 33. 30 and 23.

[Lulu Miller]

Dr. Eduardo.

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

And my last name is Fernandez Duque.

[Lulu Miller]

Someone chimed in. Was that a bird?

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

I am surrounded by birds in my backyard.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah, there was a gorgeous bird call. And you're right now In Argentina.

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

Yes.

[Lulu Miller]

Dr. Eduardo is a biological anthropologist and behavioral scientist who has spent decades observing owl monkeys in the forests of South America.

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

Let me close the window. That may reduce.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Lulu Miller]

Although. But. Okay, but Say hi to the bird or say hola. And our story begins outside that window, way out in the forest, way up high in the canopy, where there is a male owl monkey who is just moments away from becoming a father. Now picture this guy. He's about the size of a Chihuahua. White face with huge orange eyes that help him see really well at night. That's why he's called an owl monkey. He does not, unfortunately, hoot like I thought he might. But like owls, he does come out at night. Anyway, at this particular moment, next to this monkey, his mate, the female owl monkey, is pushing out a baby owl monkey the size of a chipmunk. Now, this is a very charged moment in the animal world because with some animals, like chimps, lions, hamsters, gobyfish, beetles. Okay, the list is pretty long. The father has been known to kill their babies, sometimes even eat them.

[Hoot Hoots]

What?

[Lulu Miller]

I was hungry. Which is, I guess, common enough to give it a scientific name.

[Michael]

Filial cannibalism, Rob.

[Lulu Miller]

But if they're not doing that, certain animal dads are famous for, well, bailing. I'm out checking out. Leaving the female parent to do all the care and feeding of the baby. You got this, babe. So back to our owl monkey dad sitting right next to the baby in the Argentinian forest. The thing is, up until this moment, no one knew how that dad was going to respond because no one, no

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

one had ever seen a baby owl monkey being in the wild.

[Lulu Miller]

But that day, Eduardo's team happened to be there on the forest floor, observing.

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

It took about half hour that the baby came out of the mother's womb. And what was fascinating is that the father was also very, very close, really, and trying to help. I mean, he was touching the umbilical cord, no, you know, this cord that connects the baby.

[Lulu Miller]

He was possibly trying to help the mama monkey cut it so. So the baby could be free.

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

That is right there as the baby's bone.

[Lulu Miller]

Born for the first week, the baby Is just nursing, nursing, nursing like crazy

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

on the mom until mom is like, enough. I've had it with this suckling. I'm done. I need some space.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

But there comes dad to the rescue.

[Hoot Hoots]

Here I come, kiddo.

[Lulu Miller]

The baby literally climbs onto the dad's back and basically does not leave for months. The two of them bounce and swing through the treetops together.

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

Daddy's gonna play with the infant.

[Hoot Hoots]

Tag. You're it.

[Lulu Miller]

He grooms the infant.

[Hoot Hoots]

Get those mites out.

[Lulu Miller]

He teaches him how to curl up into a tiny ball way up high in the tree so he looks almost invisible so he can sleep during the day.

[Michael]

Sweet daydreams, little one.

[Lulu Miller]

And as the baby grows up, dad starts to teaching him how to pick out tasty fruits. Which fruits to bite into, which to avoid.

[Hoot Hoots]

That one tastes gross.

[Lulu Miller]

How to catch a moth midair. Nice job. But pretty much this whole time, the baby's little arms are wrapped around the dad's shoulders. Meaning this is a three month long

[Hoot Hoots]

piggyback ride, or should I call it a monkey back ride.

[Lulu Miller]

Now, around four months, the baby climbs off the piggyback ride and starts braving the big leaps up, up in the branches by itself.

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

Unless suddenly you get to a gap between branches and you need to take a jump. And so they may give you a little bit of a squeak or a squeal, and that says, okay, hold on a minute. I'm gonna put him on my back and take him across the gap.

[Hoot Hoots]

I got you, little one.

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

What is very powerful is the evidence we have that eventually, over the years, the infant seems to have a stronger ac attachment or bond to the father than the mother.

[Lulu Miller]

Wow. So as Eduardo and his team are discovering all the secrets of the owl monkey dad halfway across the globe, living in Switzerland at the time, our other human dad, Michael, he's becoming a father.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lulu Miller]

And while he is completely obsessed with his new daughter Mila, completely in love with her, he says he wasn't sure exactly what to do with her or how to soothe her, bathe her.

[Michael]

I was, I didn't grow up sort of being super comfortable expressing my emotions or super comfortable with physical touch.

[Lulu Miller]

And so at first, with this baby in his arms, he just felt a little awkward or unnatural, which felt in this weird way, like maybe the natural way for a dad to feel.

[Michael]

There was this story about what's natural, you know, what's natural for the mom, for the dad, for the family. And we did have, in my education, a lot of comparisons to animals, but usually we were being compared to chimpanzees

[Lulu Miller]

Growing up, Michael was told that since humans were closely related to chimps through evolution, we're both primates, we share a common ancestor. Then some of the things chimps do might somehow be inside us as instincts too. And chimp dads, well, at the time Michael was growing up, they were understood to be very aggressive at their worst. And at their best, well, they were just off somewhere else. It seemed like in nature the dad

[Michael]

role was about hunting and protection.

[Lulu Miller]

And he thought, well, maybe nature was sending him a message that he'd never be good at the softer side of parenting. And then one day a few years ago, Michael is lamenting about all this, what a dad's natural role truly is, when his friend says, wait, wait, wait, you gotta call Dr. Eduardo.

[Michael]

He studies owl monkeys. And I reached out to him and he was like, I'll come over. I'll come over to your house. Let's have a play date, basically.

[Children/Listeners]

Really?

[Michael]

I was like, okay, that's awesome. Come to my house.

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

He felt like that.

[Michael]

Yeah. So he came over and we're like, let's go swimming.

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

And I brought my goggles.

[Michael]

He's a really good swimmer, by the way.

[Lulu Miller]

Okay.

[Michael]

Really fast. We kept talking about all sorts of

[Lulu Miller]

different dads, chimp dads and their own dads. And at some point, Dr. Eduardo started telling Michael what he had observed with owl monkey dads.

[Michael]

He's talking about a two to three month piggyback ride.

[Lulu Miller]

You guys are at your play date. I'm picturing you, you're swimming in the waves. And like, I don't know, Eduardo's like, no, Michael. And then a wave comes. He's like, no, no, no, really. Owl monkeys are amazing dudes. Okay, so what from your side, Michael, what did you. What did Eduardo tell you that day and how did it hit you?

[Michael]

Well, first I was like, that's so cute. And then at the same time, I was kind of upset.

[Lulu Miller]

Why?

[Michael]

Well, I was like, why have I been hearing about this for the first time? And so I was sort of like, who picked which monkey we were gonna be compared to? And why did they pick chimpanzees? Because if they had picked the owl monkeys, you know, maybe I would have learned something different. So I found myself kind of wanting to dig into sort of what other animals are out there that might do fathering differently.

[Lulu Miller]

And he will share what he finds and take us on some of the wildest turns in this dadventure. After this short break.

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[Lulu Miller]

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[Lulu Miller]

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[Michael]

The seahorses is the one that everybody knows.

[Lulu Miller]

Okay, but tell us.

[Michael]

But it's important because the dads get pregnant.

[Lulu Miller]

So what does that mean? They really. What does that mean?

[Michael]

He does, like, the dance, a courtship dance. And then the female will put her eggs into a pouch in the male seahorse's belly. And the pouch is kind of like a magical pouch. It will change the levels of oxygen and salt, and it's kind of like a womb, you know, getting them ready to go out into the ocean. And they're pregnant for, I think, a couple weeks. And then the dad seahorse goes into labor, and it could take a few hours. And they, they just shoot out hundreds of baby seahorses, all, all, like, fully formed but really tiny, and then they can get pregnant again a few days later.

[Lulu Miller]

Wow. Just right off the bat, there goes nature shattering another rule. Like those hard lines we thought existed between what a mom is supposed to do and a dad's supposed to do, like, the two categories, they just aren't there.

[Michael]

There's so many different ways to be a dad. There's a lot of options, and we're flexible and we can organize and be whatever it is that our kids need. That in and of itself is natural. That that is something you find in nature.

[Lulu Miller]

Okay, who is our next dad?

[Michael]

I got totally obsessed with poison dart frogs. Poison dart frogs.

[Lulu Miller]

Okay, what Are these.

[Michael]

So they live in the rainforest in South America.

[Lulu Miller]

Do they shoot poison dart.

[Michael]

So they're called poison dart frogs because people have used venom that comes from them to make poison tips on arrows.

[Audience/Staff Announcer]

Oh, cool.

[Michael]

And they, they're the size of like your thumbnail. So they're tiny.

[Children/Listeners]

Okay.

[Michael]

Real little frogs. And they're singers. Well, they chirp. Right.

[Lulu Miller]

Okay.

[Michael]

To kind of claim like a territory. And the, the females will listen to them chirping to see like, who's the best single to decide where they want to lay their eggs.

[Hoot Hoots]

And I swear by the moon and the stars in the sky, I'll be there chirping.

[Michael]

And so the females will lay the eggs on wet leaves on the forest floor. And then the dads will guard them. And this is the best part. When they hatch, the dad will take each tadpole individually on a piggyback ride. What, so on his back, just like the owl monkeys, each one individually and go and find a plant that sort of has some covering and has some water inside. And it'll lay the tadpole in there so that it's safe and it has

[Lulu Miller]

water like in a pool, a little kiddie pool.

[Hoot Hoots]

Here, kiddo, take a swim.

[Michael]

But he won't put any of them together. Cause he doesn't want them to compete for resources. And I think he also doesn't want, if one's born, comes up to eat the other one and then coming back and checking on them all the time to make sure there's enough water. And if they need to eat the dads, they can't feed the tadpoles.

[Hoot Hoots]

Sorry little froggies. Only mommy can feed you by laying one of her eggs for you to eat.

[Michael]

So they'll do their song again to try and persuade if there's a female in the area to come and feed them a little bit more. Remember, they're the size of your thumbnail. Yes. And they're like journeying with these tadpole babies all over, placing them, coming back, checking on them.

[Lulu Miller]

So playing music to lure food back. Like, wow, that is a toad. A lia awesome father. Next up, another contender from frogland, the Darwin frog. Found in the forests of Argentina and Chile.

[Michael]

They also guard the eggs like the poison dart frogs. But then they do this really funny thing. They put them in their mouth, they swallow them.

[Lulu Miller]

No, wait, the ba. Like the tadpoles or the eggs. The eggs.

[Michael]

They swallow the eggs and then they store them in a vocal sac in their throat. Because it's safer, right? It's safer in there. And then inside this pouch in Their throat. They grow and they're protected. The father eats a bit less. He stops calling around so much. Cause he doesn't draw sing.

[Lulu Miller]

Because otherwise you're like, oh, look at my babies.

[Michael]

But then. And then, like, the big reveal is when they're sort of ready to go out on their own. They just walk out of their dad's mouth into the world.

[Lulu Miller]

They're literally taking refuge in him.

[Michael]

Yeah. Wow.

[Audience/Staff Announcer]

This is.

[Lulu Miller]

That is talking about biting off more than you could chew. That's a big fatherly commitment.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lulu Miller]

Next up, father number four, the burying beetles.

[Michael]

Okay, so burying beetles. Also tiny little beetles.

[Audience/Staff Announcer]

Okay.

[Lulu Miller]

And bury. We're not talking like blueberries. You mean burying underground?

[Michael]

No, like burying underground. Like burying underground. Because they find a small animal, like a mouse or a bird that's dead, they will team up with a moment. Okay. And they'll bury it underground.

[Lulu Miller]

The dead, the corpse, the carcass. Okay, this sounds pretty gross.

[Michael]

Okay, it is gross, but it's also really cool. They'll clean it. They'll get rid of debris, and they'll shape it, and they turn it. Shape it.

[Lulu Miller]

So I'm picturing. Okay, let's just go with a mouse. So, like, a dead mouse, they clean it. Meaning, like, they eat all the dead meat and fur.

[Michael]

Hold on.

[Lulu Miller]

Or they get it off.

[Michael]

I have a picture, too.

[Lulu Miller]

Wait, what am I looking at?

[Michael]

It was a mouse.

[Hoot Hoots]

Ugh.

[Michael]

It's gonna be a nursery.

[Lulu Miller]

Wait, a corpse? A skeleton crib. A skeleton nursery.

[Michael]

No, it's not just a skeleton because it's also gonna be a source of food. It's gonna be like an edible nursery.

[Lulu Miller]

Corpse nursery.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like a corpse nursery. It's a corpse crib. Exactly. It's the corpse crib. But not so scary. And because they coat it with this antimicrobial secretion, so they kind of like,

[Lulu Miller]

dead meat has lots of bacteria.

[Michael]

And the antimicrobial secretion. I looked this up just for terrestrials. It comes from their mouth and from their butt.

[Hoot Hoots]

Show that you care. With antibacterial spray from your derriere.

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

Don't try this at home.

[Michael]

Don't try this at home.

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

That's the mess.

[Lulu Miller]

You find a dairy dead body. They, like, mush the dead flesh around so that it becomes shaped like a crib. They disinfect it and then what do they do?

[Michael]

The babies hatch. The larvae hatch, and they can hang out in there, but they can't yet eat themselves. So the dad will do this thing that you see with birds. Like, chew it. And then feed them from it.

[Lulu Miller]

Once again, the. It is dead flesh.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lulu Miller]

So he like baby birds, some dead flesh from the walls of the crib.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Lulu Miller]

Into its book. So sweet. Happy Father's Day.

[Michael]

And. And, and they'll defend their kids from animals that could be like a hundred times bigger. Like a mouse. Like, there's no chance, Right, that they're gonna be able to do it. One of the ways that they do this is they have this nasty smelling chemical that they can make in the glands of their butt. Again, like a skunk.

[Lulu Miller]

It's like an insect skin.

[Michael]

Skunk. Yeah, yeah. And then the last part of this, and very relevant for a conversation. Sometimes the mom. The mom will just wander off. And if the mom just wanders off, the dad will raise the whole family by himself, which is like 10, 20, 30 babies per brood. So, like, some serious heavy single fathering goes on here. Whoa.

[Lulu Miller]

Okay, moving on to dad. Nomuro cinco the chip. Wait, what? Wasn't the chimp the whole symbol of the mean dad list just in?

[Hoot Hoots]

Not all chimp dads are mean dads.

[Lulu Miller]

So in recent years, scientists observing chimps in the wild in the forests of Tanzania have discovered that chimp fathers are not always as aggressive or gnarly or absent as we thought. There is no one way that a male chimp parents. It depends on the individual. Some of those dads groom and cuddle their babies and on rare occasions, have even been observed taking in a baby that isn't theirs.

[Hoot Hoots]

That's way better than our first chimp pression of them.

[Lulu Miller]

All right, next up, a feathery father fellow. Say that 10 times fast. A feathery father fellow. A feathery father fellow. A feathery father fellow.

[Hoot Hoots]

A feathery father Chakanam.

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

It's a wading bird about the size of a chicken.

[Lulu Miller]

Wading, meaning it likes water.

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

Yes. Yes. Okay, and so the Jacanas, what happens is that moms are looking around and they go shopping for a potential dad that's going to take good care of the eggs.

[Lulu Miller]

Oh.

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

So the females are fighting for the attention of a male who's going to take good care of. Of the eggs she lays.

[Lulu Miller]

Wow.

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

So she finds a spot, she lays the eggs. And so the male is gonna sit with the eggs and incubate them and protect them until the eggs hatch.

[Lulu Miller]

And mom isn't incubating at all.

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

I don't think mom incubates.

[Lulu Miller]

Oh, gosh. I don't know why it's so hard for me to picture a dad incubating all on his own. It's like proof of how strong my miseducation has been. Like, these beliefs about dad and mom are even in our language. Cause we say things like, oh, she's. It's a part of our language.

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

Like, Mother Nature.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah, Mother Nature. Wow. Does that hurt your feelings as men?

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

That doesn't hurt my feelings, but I think that there's a Father Nature as much as there's a mother Nature.

[Lulu Miller]

Aw, I like that. Okay, now, speaking of father hen types nesting dads, it is time now for our sixth and final dad don't poo poo this papa to meet the top of the pops. We gotta go down deep to give

[Hoot Hoots]

Grubs the stickleback fish.

[Lulu Miller]

Okay, this to me looks like a tiny stegosaurus of a fish with like sharp spikes running down its back.

[Michael]

And that's why it's called stickleback, I think.

[Lulu Miller]

Okay.

[Michael]

So they're known as, like underwater architects. So they build nests on the bottom of a pond or stream also to get the moms to want to lay eggs. And they use bits of plants that they glue together with a sticky substance that is called spigen. It's made out of protein based mucus.

[Children/Listeners]

Okay.

[Michael]

And so they build these nests and then they do these zigzag dances. Like they do dances when they see a female with a belly full of eggs to try to get her to lay the eggs in the nest. And then she goes and the dad will take care of them and take them the rest of the way.

[Hoot Hoots]

Wow.

[Lulu Miller]

I just pulled up a picture of the nest because I was trying to picture it, because I usually think of a fish nest as just like a little smoothed out bit of sand. But this has architecture. It looks almost like a bird's nest up on its side. It's clearly arranged with so much care. And I don't know, it just makes me think back to all your worries that started this thing, Michael, that dads don't do the nesting or the cozying or the softer parts. And it's just like, here's another one, yet another creature where the dad is doing that.

[Michael]

Can I, can I jump in, Eduardo?

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

[Michael]

There was this study by another colleague,

[Lulu Miller]

Michael says that all kinds of scientists have been trying to understand where a parent's caretaking behavior, where it comes from. Like, is it an old part of us or something that's new and involves lots of complex thought in the brain? And they're finding some pretty neat stuff. Like, there was one experiment that took

[Michael]

dads and watched how Their brain activates when they see and play with their baby. And you would see activation in the really old parts of our brain. And another scientist called Kumi Kuroda, and she was trying to isolate what part of the brain was responsible for nesting behavior. And she had concluded that the first sort of parental instinct, the first nesting behavior was male fish millions of years ago.

[Children/Listeners]

Whoa.

[Lulu Miller]

Fish, of course, are who. We came from mammals, descended from fish hundreds of millions of years ago.

[Michael]

And it was only then when we came on land and, you know, had the babies outside the body and had to breastfeed that these other parts came in. But one of the big lessons of all of this was, you know, get in touch with your inner fish. We all have that kind of biology, and it's really, really old.

[Lulu Miller]

It's deep.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lulu Miller]

Has learning about all these different ways that dads show care in the animal world, has it changed you in any way?

[Michael]

The sort of joke I've been making is it's a kind of new take on dad bod. Like, we're actually incredibly flexible and capable of connecting in a profound way. Like, we can do this. And our bodies, our brains, are made for this, actually.

[Hoot Hoots]

Give it up for dads. Give it up for dads. Give it up for dads. Come in all shapes and sizes they're full of surprises Come in all shapes and sizes they're full of surprises of all different species and every location the dad delegation dads Is sweeping the nation Deep in their mind these dads are going primal the love and care they share with their child is wild Dads, I'm talking about dads they're singing off camera they don't really care they're clapping off beats Dads, they're baking dessert Dads, they're mowing the lawn Dads, they're braiding your hair they're dancing along dad if their back doesn't hurt Dads, give it up for dads. Come in all shapes and sizes they're full of surprises When a kindness arises they don't try to fight it Dads of all different species Dads from monkeys to fish Dads Are loving and cuddling Dads, they hug and they kiss Daddies who care are everywhere it's true so let's do this one more time with daditude I'm talking about dads all kinds of dads we're mad about dads so cancel your plans and celebrate so cancel your plans and celebrate Dance,

[Lulu Miller]

Ellen. Go Finski, everyone. And that's it. Nothing else cool about. What's that Excuse me, I have a question.

[Children/Listeners]

Me two. Me three, me four.

[Lulu Miller]

The badgers. Listeners with badgering questions for our expert. Eduardo, you ready?

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Children/Listeners]

Hi, my name is Emerson. I'm seven years old. My question is, who would win in a fight, an owl monkey or an owl owl?

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

Oh, gee, I think an owl Owl. I would be scared of an owl grabbing the owl monkey with its feet and claws. Yeah, I put my money with an owl owl.

[Lulu Miller]

Well, with that scientific recommendation, I would put owl My money with an owl owl, too.

[Children/Listeners]

Hi, I'm Cassidy. I'm nine years old. My question is, have you ever hugged an owl monkey?

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

Full disclosure, it was back in the day when we were allowed to do these things 20, 25 years ago. Yes, I've had them in my arms and hold them.

[Lulu Miller]

What did it feel like?

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

It moves you. I mean, you're handling these animals. You want them to do well. You're releasing them into the forest again. So it's a very nice feeling.

[Children/Listeners]

My name is Lucy. I'm five years old. And my question is, can owl monkeys go onto the top of your roof somehow?

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

Of course. In fact, some people told me when I started working with owl monkeys, they were showing me the roof of their houses, and they said, can you see how clean they are? There are no spider webs. Well, that's because owl monkeys do come on the roof, and they like insects and they eat them, and they do the job for us of keeping our roof clean.

[Lulu Miller]

Now, that's some monkey business. I can give a hunt.

[Michael]

Hey, I'm Tobin. And I'm Lucy's dad. Why are owl monkey toes so long?

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

Because that's very important if you're walking around in relatively thin branches. Or that's for the same reason that them, like us, have what we call the opposable thumb. It really helps your gripping of the branches along which you walk.

[Children/Listeners]

Hello, my name is Parker. I'm five years old. Do owl monkeys see anything different with their orange eyes?

[Lulu Miller]

Ooh, I love that. What would the world look like through an owl monkey's eyes?

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

Black and white, for one. Not in color. And we would have pretty detailed skills to detect the variation of the black and white. I mean, the hues, the gradient.

[Lulu Miller]

And what about at nighttime?

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

They see better than us. They see better than us because of specific cells of the eyes.

[Lulu Miller]

But Eduardo says we humans can see better in the dark than you might think.

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

Get out. Get out. On a night of a full moon, give yourself 10 minutes without light and bring a book. And if you have a full moon and you allow yourself a 10 minutes, you'll be reading the book.

[Children/Listeners]

Interesting.

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

Call me if you cannot. I bet you that you'll do it. You can read a book, no problems. But you have to let your eyes adjust.

[Lulu Miller]

I'm going to try this. There's actually a full moon in a couple of days.

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

There you go.

[Lulu Miller]

Okay, test, test. It is a very full moon. I'm sitting. You can maybe hear the waves of Lake Michigan. I'm sitting right near the lake in this dark park where there are no street lights. And I'm gonna do the test. Ten minutes later, I opened up my son's copy of Wild Robot to a random page. If I really look, I can almost get where like somebody grinned. Grinned. I can't quite. Definitely got better. Dr. Eduardo was right. It got impressively better. My eyesight in 10 minutes, but I can't quite get there. Here's what might be messing with the experiment. Number one, there's some clouds in front of the moon. And number two, I'm getting older and my eyesight has actually started to get worse and I don't have glasses. So I don't know if you guys try this on a full moon, see if you can read even more. And I think that's where we're going to leave it with a little bit of real life experimentation. Learning owl about owl monkeys has been a real hoot. And I won't tell you about barking tree frog dads who prevent their egg clusters from getting too dry by dousing them with urine. I won't tell you that because I'm nice. Terrestrials was created by me, Lulu Miller with WNYC Studios. This episode was produced by Tanya Chawla with sound design by Mira Burton Tonic. Sarah Sambaki's our executive producer. Our team also includes Ellen Kofinski, Anna Gonzalez, Joe Plord and Natalia Ramirez. Fact checking by Anjali Mercado with additional editorial advising by Cassius Adair. And big special thanks to our dads, Michael and Eduardo. They actually organized a conference all about dads in the animal world and the human world over at Yale that was called Fathers and Fatherhood From Molecules to Modern Families. And that's where Michael learned all about dads in the animal world. And they recently participated in another conference on dads in Brazil. And I guarantee you they're gonna organize or participate in another one. So if you are interested in dads in the animal world and our evolving understanding of dads in the human world, keep an eye on the project. Early Childhood Matters. That's Early Childhood Matters online Support for terrestrials is provided by the Simons foundation, the Arthur Vining Davis Foundations, and the Templeton Foundation.

[Dr. Eduardo Fernandez Duque]

Thank you.

[Lulu Miller]

And you in honor of Father's Day, go show some love on the father figures in your life, whoever it is that tells the best dad jokes, AKA the the worst jokes in your life. And if you are making a Father's Day card, here is some inspiration from Listener Emmy, age 9. She drew a picture of a toucan holding up a foam finger that says number one. And the toucan is saying toucan do it. And inside the card it says together we can wing it. I love that because isn't that all we're all trying to do here together? Just. Just get through as best we can together. Okay, Finally Preview Our next episode is all about king cobras and we want to know what would you draw for the episode art? What would you be your episode poster of a king cobra? Send it to us at T E

[Hoot Hoots]

R R E S T R I

[Lulu Miller]

A l [e-mail] or if you want to draw the thing and send it in the real mail to us, the snail mail, the old school way. Just put an envelope, throw a stamp on there and send it to Terrestrials Team WNYC Radio, 160 Varick Street, New York, NY 10013. We love getting mail, that's all. See you in a couple spins of this dirty old planet of ours. By

[Audience/Staff Announcer]

hi, I'm Maya and I'm from London and here are the staff credits. Radiolab is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser. Soren Wheeler is our Executive editor. Sarah Sandbach is our executive director. Our managing editor is Pat Walters. Dylan Keefe is our director of Sound design. Our staff includes Jeremy Bloom, W Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Maria Paz Gutierrez, Simdhu9 Assambandan, Matt Kielty, Mona Maudgauker, Annie McKeown, Alex Neeson, Sara Khari, Natalia Ramirez, Rebecca Rand, Joanna Strogatz, Anissa Vitse, Arian Wack, Molly Webster and Jessica Young, with help from Gabby Santas and Maya Appleby Mohammed. Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, Natalie Middleton, Angeli Machado, and Sophie Samay.

[Michael]

Hey Radiolab. Michael Tacoma, Washington Leadership support for Radiolab science programming is provided by the Simons foundation and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

[Lulu Miller]

Radiolab is supported by Capital One. With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder that Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yup. Even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about. In a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com Bankeye Capital One NA Member FDIC One crunchy bite of a Hershey's Cookies and cream bar and I'm taken right back to college. Move in day I was a little overwhelmed by the newness of it all. Boxes were everywhere. I needed a break from unpacking. But just as I was able to take a breath and open my Hershey's Cookies and Cream bar, my new roommate, Rachel, walked in. I offered her a piece, but she said no. Then after a beat, she said, actually, those are my favorite ones. We laughed. The ice was broken, and we've been friends ever since. Hershey's. It's your happy place.