Radiolab: “Creation Story”
Host: Latif Nasser
Guest: Ella Al Shamahi
Release Date: October 10, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode of Radiolab, “Creation Story,” delves into both the scientific and personal stories of origins. Host Latif Nasser talks with paleoanthropologist and evolutionary biologist Ella Al Shamahi about the surreal world of early humans, and, intimately, about Ella’s own journey—from a deeply religious, creationist upbringing in Birmingham, England, to becoming a scientist dedicated to studying evolution. Blending anthropology, genetics, and the complexities of identity and belonging, the episode explores what it takes to cross from one worldview to another, and what is lost—and gained—in the crossing.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Surreal Origin of Our Species (02:13–04:00)

• Multiple Human Species: Ella paints a vivid picture of a time when the world was populated with various human species—the Neanderthals, Denisovans, Homo floresiensis (“hobbit humans”), Homo naledi, and others.
  • “Humans the size of penguins were living on this island in Indonesia called Flores... hunting elephants the size of cows.” — Ella Al Shamahi (02:29)
• A World of Competition: Homo sapiens were one of many “human-ish” tribes, often “not succeeding”—until suddenly, improbably, they did.
  • “We were constantly not succeeding. And then we did. And we did in the biggest way possible.” — Ella Al Shamahi (03:26)
• The Unlikeliness of Our Survival: That it was our species that made it, Ella emphasizes, is a profound stroke of luck.

2. Ella’s Personal Creation Story: From Missionary to Scientist (04:00–09:09)

• Ultraconservative Upbringing: Ella describes her tight-knit, overprotective, pan-Arab Muslim community in Birmingham, England, where evolution was completely rejected.
  • “It was an ultra conservative community... Regardless of the denomination you came from or the sect or whatever, you were pretty much anti-evolution.” — Ella Al Shamahi (05:33)
• Missionary Zeal: By age 13, Ella was traveling the UK as a missionary, focusing on bringing “lapsed Muslims” and the wider public back to Islam.
  • “I have always been an all or nothing kind of person...I was more hardcore than my siblings.” — Ella Al Shamahi (08:11)

3. The (Surprising) Path to Evolutionary Biology (09:44–12:54)

• Declared Enemy of Darwin: Her initial plan was to study evolution only to “destroy Darwin’s theory from the inside.”
  • “I was like, ‘I’m gonna go study evolution because I’m gonna destroy Darwin’s theory.’” — Ella Al Shamahi (09:44)
• Double Life at University: At UCL, she dresses in conservative Muslim attire and keeps her anti-evolution motivations a secret from faculty, while hoping to find allies among other Muslim students—who turn out to be uninterested or simply there for course requirements.

4. The Tipping Point: Confronting Scientific Evidence (15:00–21:50)

• Challenge of Speciation: Fruit fly experiments (Drosophila) and their in-lab speciation shake her beliefs; the evidence starts stacking up uncomfortably.
  • “They were starting to see the process of speciation in the lab. And I was like, oh, that’s not good.” — Ella Al Shamahi (15:59)
• Stratigraphy and Fossil Record: Observing the progression from simple to complex organisms in earth’s layers challenges her previous theological fallback positions.
• Retrotransposons: The Final Straw: Discovering that non-functional DNA segments (retrotransposons) align in the same places in humans and chimps, with mutations matching evolutionary trees, finally collapses her resistance:
  • “The only interpretation for the mutations that you find in retrotransposons is that it is evolution through descent with modification...” (19:08)
  • “It was just like, ah, it’s just... Sorry. That’s the noise you make when your whole life is about to fall apart.” (19:49)

5. Emotional Fallout: Leaving One World, Entering Another (21:50–28:57)

• Personal Crisis and Grief: Realizing she must leave her faith community, she describes total despair while sobbing in the shower—a moment she calls “hysterical” and “awful.”
  • “I just fell to the floor...I was like hysterically crying. I was just so, so distraught.” — Ella Al Shamahi (21:44)
• Family and Social Ties: Her siblings choose to accept her; “They decided to embrace me regardless. They decided that I was their sister, regardless. Makes me want to cry.” (24:43)
• Loss of Structure and Community: The shock of secular life—no longer governed by religious rules—is both terrifying and freeing, with a profound yearning for the lost warmth and belonging of her religious community.
  • “I will never, ever, ever be in a community like that again. I think religious communities are warm. They engulf you, they embrace you.” — Ella Al Shamahi (28:57)
• Learning Secular Norms: She approaches secular British society as an anthropologist would: “My exotic tribe is just central London.” (26:39)

6. Bridging Worlds—Empathy and Understanding (29:41–35:03)

• Anthropology and Identity: Her own “crossover” status—crossing from one worldview to another—mirrors the hybrid origins of humanity itself, such as Homo sapiens-Neanderthal interbreeding.
  • “What would it be like to not just be mixed heritage... but mixed species? Like, what would that have been like?” — Ella Al Shamahi (31:09)
• Superpowers from Hybridity: Some genetic traits (like high-altitude adaptation in Tibetans) come from these ancient crossings.
  • “The mutation is actually one that they inherited off Denisovans.” — Ella Al Shamahi (32:07)
• Empathy for Deniers: Her own trauma leads her to treat those who deny science with patience and empathy.
  • “Because I’ve gone through that, I approach that with empathy... when somebody has that belief, it’s not one belief, it’s a belief system.” — Ella Al Shamahi (33:52)

Notable Quotes and Moments

• “Our story is kind of epic, man. Our story’s epic.” — Ella Al Shamahi (02:13)
• “I was a woman on a mission. And so I turn up to University College London... And I went to the Darwin building because Charles Darwin himself, he lived there, and that was my department.” — Ella Al Shamahi (12:15)
• (On life after leaving her religious community) “Suddenly, every single thing did not have a rule attached to it, which you might think is freeing, except if that’s the only thing you’ve ever known, that’s terrifying.” — Ella Al Shamahi (25:28)
• (On secular adjustment) “I wrote a book about the handshake...in your culture, you never shook hands with men.” — Ella Al Shamahi (27:06)
• “I didn’t want anyone else to follow me because I didn’t want them to go through what I was going through.” — Ella Al Shamahi (25:00)
• “What would it be like to...be mixed species? Like, what would that have been like? And what would the mother have felt like? Would she have been sitting there hoping that the child would look more Homo sapiens than Neanderthal because...she doesn’t want them to get ostracized.” — Ella Al Shamahi (31:09)
• “I actually have less interest in debating that point with them and more interest in bonding with them as a person and showing them who I am and me seeing their humanity.” — Ella Al Shamahi (35:03)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Early Human World, Lord of the Rings Comparison: 02:13–04:00
• Personal Creation Story, Missionary Background: 04:00–09:09
• University and Double Agent Motive: 09:44–12:54
• Encounter with Scientific Evidence: 15:00–21:50
• Emotional Fallout, Leaving Home and Faith: 21:50–28:57
• Anthropology, Hybridity, and Empathy: 29:41–35:03

Tone and Style

Radiolab’s signature mix of curiosity, warm humor, and emotional candor shines throughout. Ella Al Shamahi is witty, self-aware, and deeply reflective about the turmoil and transformation she has experienced. Latif Nasser guides the conversation with empathy, curiosity, and personal resonance, himself having grown up in a devout Muslim home.

Summary

“Creation Story” is not just about the scientific formation of the human species—it’s about the parallel transformations we undergo in our personal lives. Ella Al Shamahi’s journey from a creationist missionary to an acclaimed evolutionary scientist—along with her insights into interspecies mingling and her reflections on community, identity, and empathy—reveal the courage and pain involved in evolving from one world to another. The episode is a moving testament to the messy, sometimes surreal, but ultimately unifying story of creation, both collective and intensely personal.