Curiosity Killed the Adage

Summary

Radiolab Episode Summary: "Curiosity Killed the Adage"

Radiolab, hosted by Latif Nasser and Latif Nasser, ventures into the intriguing world of adages—those time-tested sayings we often accept as universal truths. In the episode titled "Curiosity Killed the Adage," released on December 20, 2024, the hosts embark on a mission to rigorously examine the validity of three popular adages through scientific inquiry, expert interviews, and engaging experiments.

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1. Introduction: The Quest to Test Adages

The episode begins with Latif Nasser introducing the premise: questioning the veracity of common sayings that we’ve grown up hearing. The hosts express a mix of skepticism and fascination, setting the stage for a deep dive into whether these adages hold up under scrutiny.

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2. First Adage: "Misery Loves Company"

Exploring the Belief: Alex Neeson shares a personal anecdote about struggling during a strenuous track workout, questioning the adage "Misery loves company." This introspection leads to an exploration of whether shared suffering genuinely alleviates individual misery.

Scientific Investigation: Kate Hassett, an environmental economist and fellow runner, collaborates to design experiments to test the adage's validity.

• Survey Experiment (10:28):
  • Kate explains, “We asked a hundred people to complete a survey...” [12:09]
  • Survey Results: Approximately 70% of respondents believed that sharing misery with others makes it less burdensome, opting for option B in the survey scenario.
  • Surprising Finding: Despite the belief, a follow-up experiment revealed that participants remained equally miserable irrespective of shared suffering. Kate notes, “We didn’t find evidence that misery actually does love company” [16:44].

Expert Insight: Svenja Wolf, an assistant professor of sports psychology, provides nuanced perspectives:

• Emotional Context Matters: “There is a good body of research out there, and it's really, it depends...” [19:03]
• Different Emotions, Different Needs: Wolf distinguishes between emotions like fear and shame, explaining that while company can alleviate feelings of fear or sadness, it may not help with emotions like shame.

Key Quote:

• Alex reflects, “But Kate says, you know, 70%, it's a big number” [15:33].
• Svenja adds, “When people feel miserable together, it helps them perform better... and it also helps them feel better” [20:27].

Conclusion: The adage holds mixed validity. While the belief in shared misery persists, empirical evidence suggests its benefits are context-dependent rather than universally true.

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3. Second Adage: "Idle Mind is the Devil's Workshop"

Challenging the Notion of an Idle Mind: The team shifts focus to the adage “Idle mind is the devil's workshop,” questioning the negative connotations associated with a wandering mind.

Expert Insight: Kalina Krzysztof Hajileva, a psychology professor, challenges the traditional view:

• Beyond Task Focus: Hajileva explains, “That's the wrong way to think about it” [28:16], suggesting that mind wandering can be a realm of creativity and subconscious processing rather than mere idleness.

Neuroscience Deep Dive: Kate introduces the concept of sharp wave ripples—bursts of neuronal activity occurring when the mind is not focused on a specific task.

• Yuri Buzhaki, a neuroscience professor, elaborates on how these ripples facilitate memory consolidation and creative thinking. “They are snippets that are compressed versions of learned information” [31:57].

Key Quote:

• Kate summarizes, “I just, I'm like realizing how off I was about it. Like, idling is pretty important” [35:51].
• Alex adds, “It's like a workshop where we make our sense of our world and who we are” [35:51].

Conclusion: Contrary to the adage, an idle mind plays a crucial role in cognitive functions like memory formation and creativity. Far from being a "workshop for the devil," mind wandering is essential for personal development and problem-solving.

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4. Third Adage: "What Goes Up Must Come Down"

Testing the Law of Physics: The hosts tackle the seemingly indisputable adage "What goes up must come down," exploring exceptions and edge cases that challenge its absolute nature.

Experiments and Observations:

• Balloon and Cloud Lifespans:

  • Investigations reveal that water particles in clouds take about 10 days to cycle back as rain [42:18].
  • Dust particles can linger in the atmosphere for up to 20 days [42:39].

• Animal Behavior:

  • Spiders engage in ballooning, allowing them to traverse vast distances and remain airborne for over 25 days [43:12].

• The Case of the Common Swift:

  • Natural History author Scott Widensaal discusses how common swifts can remain aloft for 10 months without touching ground, mating on the wing and potentially evolving into entirely aerial creatures [44:05].

Expert Insight: Dr. Michelle Thaler, an astronomer, explains the complexities of orbital mechanics:

• Orbit Dynamics: Even astronauts in the International Space Station are in a perpetual state of free fall, maintaining orbit by constantly missing the Earth’s surface [46:47].

Key Quote:

• Kate remarks, “That’s sick. We're sick, right? We’re sick... What does that say about us?” [17:33].
• Dr. Thaler clarifies, “Although it might look like the astronauts are up there floating. No, they're not” [46:45].

Conclusion: While the adage holds true in everyday experiences, celestial mechanics introduce scenarios where "what goes up" can remain in perpetual descent, orbiting indefinitely. The statement is both true and nuanced, depending on the context.

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5. Final Thoughts: Rethinking Common Wisdom

The episode concludes with the hosts reflecting on the insights gained from testing these adages. They highlight the importance of questioning accepted truths and embracing scientific inquiry to understand the underlying complexities of seemingly simple sayings.

Key Reflections:

• Misery Loves Company: Context matters; shared suffering can be beneficial but isn't universally applicable.
• Idle Mind is the Devil's Workshop: Mind wandering is a vital component of creativity and memory, challenging the negative perception of idleness.
• What Goes Up Must Come Down: Physical laws hold, yet exceptions in nature and space reveal a more intricate reality.

Final Quote: Alex humorously sums up, “But let's think about all the things that were invented by accident where, like, no one was even trying to invent shit that day” [52:42], emphasizing the unpredictability and wonder of scientific discovery.

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Conclusion

"Curiosity Killed the Adage" invites listeners to delve deeper into the truths behind everyday sayings. By blending personal stories, scientific research, and expert interviews, Radiolab not only challenges preconceived notions but also enriches our understanding of the world. This episode serves as a testament to the power of curiosity and the importance of questioning the familiar to uncover the extraordinary.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Alex Neeson [15:33]: “But Kate says, you know, 70%, it's a big number.”
• Kate Hassett [35:51]: “I just, I'm like realizing how off I was about it. Like, idling is pretty important.”
• Dr. Michelle Thaler [46:47]: “Although it might look like the astronauts are up there floating. No, they're not.”
• Alex Neeson [52:42]: “But let's think about all the things that were invented by accident where, like, no one was even trying to invent shit that day.”

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This comprehensive exploration not only debunks or validates these adages but also underscores the importance of scientific inquiry in understanding the complexities of human beliefs and natural phenomena.

Transcript

[Latif Nasser]

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[Alex Neeson]

Listener support WNYC Studios.

[Latif Nasser]

Hello and thank.

[Kate Hassett]

You for calling Customer Service.

[Latif Nasser]

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[Alex Neeson]

Give a. I mean, do you have a promo code?

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No, but the things that you enjoy, the things that have value in your life.

[Alex Neeson]

When you say a free subscription, what do you mean?

[Latif Nasser]

I would still just get everything that I already get, but I just wouldn't have to pay any money.

[Alex Neeson]

Yeah, no, you have to pay for them.

[Latif Nasser]

Let me connect you with a representative who can help with your request. And even things that you think like, maybe you shouldn't really have to pay for.

[Kate Hassett]

I'm sorry. Well, a plan where the electricity is for free.

[Latif Nasser]

This is America. How can I help you today? It's gonna cost you. Sure, let me find someone to help you. Gas? I was looking to get the Internet for free. The Internet? I'm not sure what you mean by free cell phone. Um, no, we don't have any free cell phone plans.

[Kate Hassett]

No.

[Latif Nasser]

Please hold. And I get it. You're probably sitting there thinking, well, you know what? I paid my taxes. I'm doing my part. I'm contributing to public radio. But you know how much of your personal federal taxes went to public radio stations last year? It was probably less than $0.50, 2/4 for the whole year. That's what you contributed. That's what you. Welcome to Science Friday Everything. It's Notes From America.

[Alex Neeson]

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour Radio Lab.

[Kate Hassett]

Everything.

[Latif Nasser]

Ryan Lehrer on www.everything you hear. You're basically getting it for free. And we wish we didn't have to, but we gotta say, that's just not cutting it, folks. So please take a minute out of your day to support this thing that you mostly take for granted 364 days of the year. You can do that by joining the Lab, our membership program. The Lab is part of what powers all of this. Joining makes it possible for us to keep making these shows for you and you get something out of it, too. Exclusive merch, bonus content ad, free listening, and if you join this month, a Radiolab poster. The poster is beautiful. It's by artist Tara Anand of A Moonrise over the Ocean from our kids and family show Terrestrials. Our staff is obsessed with it right now. Go to Radiolab.org join to check out the poster or become a part of the lab. That's Radiolab.org join and thanks. Wait, you're listening.

[Alex Neeson]

Okay.

[Kate Hassett]

All right. Okay. All right. You're listening to Radiolab Radio Lab from wnyc.

[Alex Neeson]

Yep.

[Latif Nasser]

Hey, this is Radiolab. I'm Latif Nasser.

[Alex Neeson]

All right?

[Latif Nasser]

And today I'm just gonna kick Things off with our editor.

[Alex Neeson]

Got levels on my side.

[Latif Nasser]

Alex Neeson.

[Alex Neeson]

Cool. Okay, so once upon a time, it was summer.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay. Okay. Hard to remember now.

[Alex Neeson]

Hard to remember now. And. Okay, so over the summer, as you know, I'm a runner.

[Latif Nasser]

Legit runner. A legit runner, like you run marathons.

[Alex Neeson]

So over this year, I decided to take the year off from marathons, and instead I decided to tackle the one mile.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay.

[Alex Neeson]

And I was gonna try and beat my personal record. And so.

[Kate Hassett]

Okay.

[Alex Neeson]

As part of doing that last summer, every Tuesday, like clockwork. Oh, I need my watch. I would drag myself out of my apartment and head out into the city and. Okay, watch set. We out run from my house, which is about a mile and change away from Riverbank State park in Harlem. Okay, you gotta get hit by the car over to this track. Hey. Hello. What up? To meet up with some people from my running crew. I'm okay. How are you? And it depends on the night, but it's basically 10 or 15 people who all get together to do these track workouts together.

[Latif Nasser]

And as somebody who is definitely not a runner, you prefer this. You like running with people more than running alone?

[Alex Neeson]

Yeah. I mean, I do this because I can't be trusted to do it by myself. Running is really hard, and having other people there with me to do it just makes me feel. It makes me feel like I'm a team. It reminds me of being on a track team in high school where you show up for yourself and for the rest of the team and you all do the hard thing together and it's faster, it feels better. It's just the way that you get it done. So on this particular day, it was super hot, like the dead of summer. And y'all can hear me over there, ref, our coach tells us, check it out. We going to do. We're doing four hundreds. The length of a track is 400 meters. So that just means we're doing one long sprint around the entire length of the track. And we're going to do a lot of them.

[Latif Nasser]

10 on and 10 on.

[Alex Neeson]

10 on, 10 on. Yes. And everybody sort of makes this collective sigh, and it's like, okay, okay. Always.

[Latif Nasser]

You want to be running the run, don't let the run run you. Yes.

[Alex Neeson]

Right. So we get on the track, we warm up, we stretch, we do drills, kind of get loose, and then we toe the line and we start immediately out the gate. I'm pumping my legs, swinging my arms, just sprinting for the entire length of this track. Oh, shit. I cross the line, I take A little break, a sip of water, and then I'm sprinting again. And I do another lap rest. Lap rest, lap rest. How many more do you have?

[Kate Hassett]

Six.

[Alex Neeson]

And that day, I was struggling to breathe. Come on, come on, come on. My heart was beating super fast. It felt like it was coming out of my chest. And everybody else around me seemed to be settling into the workout. I don't know, it just felt like I just, like, couldn't get it together. And all of these very. All these, like, insecurities from, like, childhood came rushing back. Like I was suddenly very aware that I looked like I was struggling. And there was all these other people around me who were just watching me struggle. And so I just wanted to disappear, and I wanted all the other people on the track to disappear. And I just felt like I was mentally spiraling because the whole point of this. Of showing up at these group workouts, the whole reason why I started running with the crew in the first place, was to avoid exactly this moment. And there's this adage, misery loves company, that has been the sort of philosophy of my athletic career, if you will. The idea that if you are suffering through something and you're in the company of other people suffering the same misery, that it makes all of us a little more capable, that a burden gets lifted and that you just ultimately, you can get through it. And here I was at this track workout that was especially miserable that day, but the burden wasn't being lifted. It felt heavier, actually. And after this workout, I remember walking home and just obsessing about this adage. And by the time I get back to my apartment and for days afterwards, I had just really started to wonder, like, have I had this wrong the whole time? Maybe this thing just isn't true. Like, is it true or not? And I started to think about, like, okay, well, I have to figure this out. I have to figure out, factually speaking, does misery love company? Like, who can I call? What can I read? What can I do to get, like, real nitty gritty, real fussy, so that on the other end, I can sort of, like, stand up and declare it is true that misery loves company, or it's just not.

[Latif Nasser]

You needed an answer.

[Alex Neeson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A definitive answer.

[Latif Nasser]

So this quest that Alex suddenly wanted to embark on, we started talking about it at the show, about how there are these things that you hear in your life. Well, you know what they say. It's the squeaky weird against the grease. You hear them in movies, on tv.

[Kate Hassett]

Idle hands of the devil's workshop.

[Latif Nasser]

Maybe from a friend, a parent.

[Kate Hassett]

Well, the early bird catches the worm. Actions speak louder than words.

[Latif Nasser]

These little sayings, these adages that are supposed to be these little bits of wisdom, these true facts about how the world works. And we just started to wonder, like, are they true? And could we take Alex's mission and start looking at other adages and just getting really in the weeds and being like, okay, is there a way to objectively figure out whether or not an adage is true or it isn't? Could we put them to the test in some sort of scientific, rigorous, kind of literal, almost to the degree of being absurd way to try to get an answer? So we picked some adages and the staff basically fact checked them, starting with number one.

[Kate Hassett]

Misery Loves Company.

[Alex Neeson]

Okay, cool. So, so, so, so, so, so first thing I did.

[Kate Hassett]

Right, right, yeah.

[Alex Neeson]

Oh, here we go. Was rope in producer Simon Adler. And then I went on Google and typed in Misery Loves Company study. And to my surprise and delight, all right, something popped up.

[Latif Nasser]

We are rolling. We are rip roaring and ready to rock.

[Alex Neeson]

This paper, published in 2021, does misery environmental investigation and Kate, could we just.

[Latif Nasser]

Have you introduce yourself?

[Kate Hassett]

Sure, yeah. My name is Kate Hassett. I'm an environmental economist. And I'm interested in the factors that make us do what we do or that make us tick, so to speak.

[Alex Neeson]

And by sheer coincidence, I know where you're coming from. She is also a runner when it.

[Kate Hassett]

Comes to the particular kind of misery that long distance running can be sometimes.

[Alex Neeson]

But we are gonna move away from running, okay. Because, you know, like, an adage should be sort of universal, like it should be true in multiple situations.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah.

[Alex Neeson]

Several years ago, Kate set up the series of experiments.

[Kate Hassett]

In the first experiment, we wanted to know, do people actually believe this?

[Alex Neeson]

Do people actually believe, like me, this.

[Kate Hassett]

Adage to be true?

[Alex Neeson]

That being miserable in company makes the misery a little less miserable.

[Kate Hassett]

So we asked a hundred people to.

[Alex Neeson]

Complete a survey that said, imagine, O glory be someone.

[Latif Nasser]

I just love my New York City.

[Kate Hassett]

Lifestyle, who lives in an apartment building.

[Latif Nasser]

But what I love most of all is and my view of the park.

[Kate Hassett]

They have this view of a green park.

[Latif Nasser]

Yes. Here from my window, I can see all of the park in its glory. I can see the raccoons playing, the pigeons flying overhead, patched in the trees.

[Alex Neeson]

But the survey says this person, and actually pretty much everybody in the building, is about to lose their view of.

[Kate Hassett]

The park because of a construction project.

[Alex Neeson]

Like a big highway going in across the street.

[Latif Nasser]

That sucks.

[Alex Neeson]

So the survey asks, imagine you're like the landlord. And you have to go tell one of these tenants that they're going to lose their view.

[Kate Hassett]

If you want to minimize this person's.

[Alex Neeson]

Disappointment, their suffering, how would you inform them? Would you A.

[Latif Nasser]

Who's that?

[Alex Neeson]

Go knock on their door.

[Latif Nasser]

Oh, it's Tony. What can I do here for Tony? Hey, Gregory. I'm sorry to give you the bad.

[Kate Hassett]

News and just simply inform them they're.

[Latif Nasser]

Gonna be doing a construction project across the street. They're gonna put up a highway.

[Kate Hassett]

That means it's gonna block your view of the park, that they'll lose their view of the park.

[Latif Nasser]

Not my view of the park, Tony. I live for my view of the park.

[Alex Neeson]

So that's option A. Option B. Gregory eats Tony. Everything's the same, Tony. You tell them, look, big highway outside construction is gonna block the park view. But this time, you tell them it's.

[Latif Nasser]

Gonna block everybody's view of the park, the whole building.

[Alex Neeson]

You're not the only one who's gonna be affected by this.

[Latif Nasser]

No one's gonna be able to see the park anymore.

[Alex Neeson]

Your neighbors are gonna be losing this too. And so if you wanna make this person feel better, which one do you do? Option A or option B?

[Latif Nasser]

B.

[Alex Neeson]

It's gotta be B. Yeah, exactly. That's what I said. And when Kate gave out the survey, almost 70% of people, they said they choose B, so.

[Latif Nasser]

But there were still 30% who didn't. But. Idiopaths or something.

[Alex Neeson]

I know, right? Like, I honestly don't know why you wouldn't go with B. I would.

[Kate Hassett]

I would definitely be one of the 70%.

[Alex Neeson]

But Kate says, you know, 70%, it's a big number.

[Kate Hassett]

You know, we took this to mean that people do, by and large believe that misery actually does. Does love company. It can, you know, alleviate suffering.

[Alex Neeson]

However, just because you believe something is true for everyone else, doesn't mean it's true for you. So they did this second experiment.

[Kate Hassett]

We tried to make it as similar.

[Latif Nasser]

As possible to experiment one.

[Alex Neeson]

Everything was basically the same. There's a person in an apartment with the view. But this time the survey said, put yourself in the shoes of the person who's going to lose the view. And then one group of those people was told, you're going to lose the view of the park. While a second group was told, for.

[Kate Hassett]

Your information, 85% of the other people in your building will also lose their view of the park.

[Alex Neeson]

And then we asked them, both groups, alone or in company, please rate how.

[Kate Hassett]

Disappointed you expect that you would be in this Situation.

[Alex Neeson]

So, okay, when they looked at the results, they actually found that both groups were miserable. Everybody was just miserable, regardless of whether or not their neighbors were going to be miserable or not.

[Latif Nasser]

I would not have thought that. Yeah.

[Kate Hassett]

We didn't find evidence that misery actually does love company.

[Alex Neeson]

What they found is that people believe misery loves company, but it just didn't seem like true that misery loved company. In practice, however, they did find strong evidence for something that they weren't actually looking for, and that I think was, like, way more interesting, which is that happiness hates company.

[Latif Nasser]

What does that even mean?

[Alex Neeson]

Okay, so one of the things that they found is that if you're one of the lucky ones, if you have a great view of the park from your window, according to the survey results, you don't want anyone else to have it.

[Latif Nasser]

Wow. You want to be the lucky golden ticket winner. And it makes it better. It makes the golden ticket better if nobody else has one.

[Alex Neeson]

Yes.

[Latif Nasser]

That's sick. We're sick, right? We're sick. Like, what does that say about us? I don't like that. I really don't like that.

[Kate Hassett]

I hear you. It's.

[Latif Nasser]

It's a.

[Kate Hassett]

It's kind of a tough finding. But we're social beings. I think it's just the way we're. We're wired that you know what's going on with other people. You know, it's.

[Alex Neeson]

It's.

[Kate Hassett]

It's not irrelevant.

[Alex Neeson]

You know, I realized what Kate is getting at is the fact that we're always keeping track of what we have, of what everybody else has, and that's asking questions about, like, equity and envy and fairness. But I think I was actually asking something even simpler than that, which is just like, when you're running with a group of people and everybody is suffering together, does that fact that we're together and suffering do something for us? Is it helpful? Svenya, Hello.

[Kate Hassett]

Hi.

[Alex Neeson]

It's so nice to talk to you.

[Kate Hassett]

Yes, it is.

[Alex Neeson]

And I felt like I really started to get an answer to that when I found Svenja.

[Kate Hassett]

Svenja Wolf. I'm an assistant professor of sports psychology at Florida State University in Tallahassee, and I research anything that has to do with groups and emotions in sport and in other performance domains.

[Alex Neeson]

Amazing. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. I guess, like, I'm curious about this in your professional opinion and also in, like, your opinion as a runner. Like, does Misery love company?

[Kate Hassett]

Yeah. There is a good body and research out there, and it's really. It depends.

[Alex Neeson]

That is the answer.

[Kate Hassett]

Not every misery loves every company.

[Alex Neeson]

That's kind of what it comes down to misery brought on by fear, she says, where I'm fearful because the situation is dangerous. In that case, you probably do want to be around other people, make it less dangerous.

[Kate Hassett]

So I want company if I am sad.

[Alex Neeson]

She says with sadness, you're often feeling a sense of loss. So you want company to reconnect with others, to kind of like, get security again. But the one emotion she said that kind of struck me was shame. Shame.

[Kate Hassett]

That is something where I don't want other people to witness that. So that's something where I don't want company.

[Alex Neeson]

And I think for me, that day on the track, I think a part of me was feeling that, like, I felt sort of out of shape, like I wasn't doing well. I felt slow, like I was dragging.

[Kate Hassett]

You're really getting into that rabbit hole.

[Alex Neeson]

Of, like, I'm not good enough. I'm pathetic. And then the last thing we want is other people witnessing this. But even in that situation where we.

[Kate Hassett]

Want to be alone, where we want.

[Alex Neeson]

To withdraw from others, sharing the emotion.

[Kate Hassett]

Ultimately makes us feel better.

[Alex Neeson]

Svenja says this has been studied with groups of people on stationary bikes, with teams that have just lost big games. And no matter the setting, when people feel miserable together, it helps them perform better. Like, they pedal faster on the bikes, and it also helps them feel better. That's at least what the research suggests.

[Kate Hassett]

So, to me, the way this resonates the most is if I'm in a miserable state, I'm yearning for company. I am.

[Alex Neeson]

Like, I want. That's what I want. I want other people to comfort me. I want people to reach out to me.

[Kate Hassett]

And sometimes I don't have the energy.

[Alex Neeson]

To reach out, but I want that sense of recognition and validation and that somebody cares for me.

[Kate Hassett]

So maybe I might rephrase it to.

[Alex Neeson]

Misery can create company.

[Latif Nasser]

How you feel?

[Alex Neeson]

I feel okay. I. We can slow down because I'm definitely going too fast.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah.

[Alex Neeson]

Yeah, I'm definitely down to slow down. I feel like trying to make sure I'm not in anyone's way. No, you're far. Yeah, I feel okay. I was come to the side when I woke up this morning. Look to get ready. That's great.

[Latif Nasser]

We have to take a break, but that gives you plenty of time to watch a pot boil, hold some horses, wait for a shoe to drop. We'll be right back. This year at both Radiolab and our family friendly spinoff Terrestrials, we've spent a lot of time up in the heavens. We've named Quasimoons, We've pondered the poetry being sent into space in General, we spent 2024 marveling at the expanse that surrounds our planet, but as the year ends, we're coming back down to Earth. We have a whole host of stories cooking for you all, but we need your help to keep it all going. We're a public radio show and because of that we rely on the generosity of our listeners. That's you, to keep this show afloat. If you join our membership program, the Lab, you will get members only content, swag and an incredibly beautiful poster of one of the most beautiful pieces of episode art we've made this year. If the holiday spirit really has a hold of you, if you're feeling extra generous, we have a new ultra premium tier of the Lab called Whale Sharks. Anyone joining at this tier will get a special thank you in an upcoming episode. To learn more, check out the poster or other details, go to Radiolab.org join that's Radiolab.org join and thanks. Radiolab is supported by Capital One Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. He'd also tell you that Radiolab is his favorite podcast too. Oh really? Thanks Capital One Bank Guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply see capitalone.com bank Capital One NA member FDIC Radiolab is sponsored by BetterHelp. The holidays are a really stressful time. I am not a fan of them.

[Kate Hassett]

Christmas especially not a fan.

[Latif Nasser]

But whether you are or you aren't, BetterHelp is here to help. I have long believed that taking care of your mental health is just as important as your physical health, and therapy is a great way to do that.

[Kate Hassett]

It can teach you helpful skills, help you set boundaries or just, you know.

[Latif Nasser]

Give you the support you need. Plus, BetterHelp makes it super easy. It's all online on your schedule. You go fill out a quick questionnaire, get matched with a licensed therapist, and.

[Kate Hassett]

You can switch therapists at no extra charge.

[Latif Nasser]

Find comfort Whether you love or hate the holidays with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com Radiolab today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.com Radiolab Radiolab is supported by Rocket Money Managing finances can feel complicated and time consuming, right? But it doesn't have to be. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions monitors your spending and aims to help lower your bills so you can grow your savings. See all of your subscriptions in one place. And for those you don't want anymore, Rocket Money can help you cancel them. Rocket Money's dashboard also gives you a clear view of your expenses across all of your accounts and can help you easily create a personalized budget with custom categories to help keep your spending on track. Whether your goal is to pay off credit card debt, put away money for a house, or just build your savings, Rocket Money makes it easy. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Just go to rocketmoney.com rl today, that's rocketmoney.com rl.

[Alex Neeson]

Number two.

[Kate Hassett]

An idle mind is the devil's workshop.

[Latif Nasser]

I always heard it as the idle hands are the devil's workshop.

[Kate Hassett]

Yeah, Idle hands, idle minds. Like, people say it all sorts of ways. We're just going to go with idle minds. And I picked this one because.

[Latif Nasser]

Wait, wait, wait. Just tell everyone who you are first.

[Kate Hassett]

Oh, yes. Okay. I'm Sindhu Jnana Zamadam. I'm a producer here, and I picked this one because it's always felt pretty true to me.

[Latif Nasser]

Huh? How? Like, how so?

[Kate Hassett]

Well, I mean, of course the mind is never, like, idle, idle. But when I think of a mind that's, like, not focused on anything, like, it's just sort of, you know, wandering around. That's what I'm thinking of as an idle mind. And I, like, try to avoid that mind as much as possible.

[Latif Nasser]

Huh.

[Kate Hassett]

Part of it is that I just feel guilty for not being productive.

[Latif Nasser]

Same.

[Kate Hassett]

But also when I just sort of, like, sit around idle, oh, it feels so good. If I was in a bath right now. I wonder what Marcello's up to. All these thoughts start flooding in. How do ants, like, always seem to know exactly where they're going? Some of them are fun or helpful. Did I leave the stove on? But like, that joke I made last night was so stupid. Others, I don't think anyone even smiles. You have to say something offensive that it was. I bet that's why he's not. Texting can really suck. Like, almost like the devil's in there trying to make me miserable. Yes. So a lot of religious writing tends to regard the wandering mind as something that's not particularly desirable. This is psychology professor Kalina Krzysztof Hajileva. I study spontaneous thought and, in general, how people think. And when I called them to ask about this adage, they said it's deeply rooted in our culture, this industrial kind of capitalist, work based environment, there's this sense that there is a right way and there is a wrong way. And when you wander, you depart from the right way. And that's sometimes how we think of our own minds. Is time on task? Like, if I'm focused on something that's good, am I tasking right now or am I not task? And if I'm not tasking, therefore, I'm mind wandering. And that's bad. But Kalina says that's not necessarily a very rich way of looking at mind wandering. That's the wrong way to think about it.

[Latif Nasser]

Huh. Why?

[Kate Hassett]

Well, first of all, you know that, like, devilish part I was describing of my mind where it can start to just, like, obsess and, like, ruminate over things? Like Kalina says that stuff isn't actually mind wandering anymore. No, for me, that's the opposite of mind wandering. Because when you start to obsess, you're back to a task of sorts, like you're trying to solve some puzzle that your mind made for itself. So that's how people can get into mental ruts. Right. But Klina says when a mind truly wanders, like when it's free of any task, this isn't the devil's workshop at all. It's actually a place where something pretty beautiful is happening, like an act of creation.

[Latif Nasser]

Wow.

[Kate Hassett]

And it starts deep inside the brain with these bursts of neuronal firing called a Sharpay ripple. Sharp wave ripples. Have you heard of these?

[Latif Nasser]

Whoa. Never heard of that.

[Kate Hassett]

No.

[Latif Nasser]

Never.

[Kate Hassett]

Okay, well, let me tell you, Latish. Yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

Ripples. I love the sound of that.

[Kate Hassett]

All right, so we're in the lab. We are in the lab. So I went to go see one of the world experts on these ripples. I'm Yuri Buzhaki.

[Alex Neeson]

I'm a professor of neuroscience at New York University.

[Kate Hassett]

He showed me around his lab. Rooms filled with wires and mazes and boxes of Froot Loops. Rats and mice love Froot Loops. Is that part of the experiment? Or just because you want to give them something nice?

[Alex Neeson]

You want to have a good rapport with them, you want to be friends?

[Kate Hassett]

They are pets, your colleagues. And one of the things he does in his lab is he listens to the brains of these animals, specifically the hippocampus. And the way he does this is he sticks these little electrodes into it so that he can see or really hear these sharp wave ripples. Okay, so let's say he takes a rat and plops him into a maze and Maybe we can play a song to represent just the various neurons firing here and there. He moves through and experiences a turn over here or runs straight down this path. I don't know what else happens in a maze. Whatever. Looking up at the researcher, maybe.

[Latif Nasser]

Maybe you're smelling something and it's behind this wall. But I can't get behind the wall.

[Kate Hassett]

That's nice. And Brat makes it through the maze. He gets to the end and stops. And he's just sort of like chilling, eating his food, drinking some water. His brain is just sort of like humming around, neurons firing here and there, when all of a sudden there's this burst of activity. Like tens of thousands of neurons fire all at once in this coordinated explosion. Extraordinarily powerful synchrony. Then it happens again, then again.

[Alex Neeson]

And.

[Kate Hassett]

Again, these explosions of activity. These are sharp wave ripples, and they're the biggest, most synchronized firing of neurons that happen in our brain, short of like a seizure.

[Latif Nasser]

Wow.

[Kate Hassett]

And Yuri says, like, when you look at them closely, you see these are snippets that are compressed versions of learned information. They're actually just little sections of what the lab rat just experienced getting replayed, but super fast. Something like 10 to 20 times faster. It's like.

[Latif Nasser]

It's like instant replay, you know, I bet.

[Kate Hassett]

Like a little.

[Latif Nasser]

But like, it's like. It's like sped up. Instant replay.

[Kate Hassett]

Exactly, exactly. And not the whole thing, but like little parts of it, basically. Yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

Highlights, Highlights reel.

[Kate Hassett]

Highlight reel. And these sharp wave ripples, Yuri says they're basically the very beginning of memories being formed.

[Alex Neeson]

They select which information will be remembered.

[Kate Hassett]

And which will go to the trash can. And he's not, like, consciously experiencing this.

[Latif Nasser]

Oh, so this is even.

[Kate Hassett]

This is below consciousness of conscious.

[Latif Nasser]

Wow.

[Kate Hassett]

And when the rat goes to sleep that night, those ripples that played earlier, they just keep rippling. And this is where the memory's, like, actually getting made, where it consolidates into something that lasts.

[Latif Nasser]

Well, how is it possible that I.

[Alex Neeson]

Experienced something once and I will remember it forever?

[Latif Nasser]

And the answer is that you experienced.

[Alex Neeson]

It consciously once, but the rest of the brain will experience snippets of it during the Shop valuables.

[Kate Hassett]

Thousand times every single night.

[Latif Nasser]

Wow.

[Kate Hassett]

Yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

Huh.

[Kate Hassett]

There's more. The next day, we can stay with our rat. Our little lab rat wakes back up and, you know, a postdoc carries him back to the same maze, you know, and now when he's just sitting there and again, just like, sort of resting before starting the run, guess what we see?

[Latif Nasser]

Oh, the same. The same. The song Playing not as replay, but as pre play.

[Kate Hassett]

Yeah, exactly. A sharp wave ripple. And actually his lab has found that like the direction of the ripple coincides with whether it's like a memory or like a planning ripple. The selection is backward.

[Alex Neeson]

We are talking about memory. When the selection is forward, we are talking about planning.

[Latif Nasser]

No, that's crazy.

[Kate Hassett]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

Wow, that's so literal, huh?

[Kate Hassett]

So all the stuff that he described happens in rats. It happens in us too. And you know that experience when you can't seem to solve a problem, or like there's this word you really want, but like it's just not. It's like on the tip of your tongue, you don't have it and then you just sort of like walk away from it and all of a sudden like, bam, it's there.

[Latif Nasser]

Right.

[Alex Neeson]

This is the time the sharp face come very handy.

[Kate Hassett]

You disengage and then a couple of.

[Alex Neeson]

Sharp waves occur in your brain. They prime the circuitry for you and.

[Kate Hassett]

Then you can recall it like you've left the task. But these like little, you know, subconscious neural things are just working for you.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah.

[Kate Hassett]

I also asked him how these sharp wave ripples connect to like mind wandery thoughts out of seemingly nowhere. I have this memory of my mom cooking a specific meal or something like that. Is that connected at all to this sharp wave ripple activity?

[Alex Neeson]

I never measured it. I don't know, but I bet yes.

[Kate Hassett]

So sharp wave ripples are good candidates for that. And actually there was a nature paper earlier this year that made this exact connection. That these sharp wave ripples seem to be the brain mechanism underpinning those thoughts that seemingly pop out of nowhere.

[Latif Nasser]

Huh. So how often do these ripples happen?

[Kate Hassett]

Yeah, so he says that they can happen once every 10 seconds or even once a second, but the one time they definitely do not happen is like when your mind is focused on something.

[Alex Neeson]

If you are listening to me now, I guarantee you, you don't have a single Sharpie.

[Kate Hassett]

These ripples only happen, Yuri says, when.

[Alex Neeson]

We are idling, when we are not.

[Kate Hassett]

Focusing on something, when we are not attending. It's almost like a digestion. Right. So you go around acquiring experiences. If you don't have a digestion system, you're not going to extract anything from all these experiences. Right, so in other words, without idling, you are nobody. You know, you are a zombie.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay, so where does this all leave us with our adage?

[Kate Hassett]

I just, I'm like realizing how off I was about it. Like, idling is pretty important. It picks our memories, like solidifies our memories, imagines new things. So yeah, I guess like it is a workshop. It's just like not for the devil. It's like a workshop where we make our sense of our world and who we are.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah, beautiful. Let that mind of yours idle for a bit. We will be right back Radiolab is supported by Capital One Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. He'd also tell you that Radiolab is his favorite podcast too. Aw really? Thanks Capital One Bank Guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com bank Capital One NA member FDIC Radiolab is supported by Made in Cookware. As a Radiolab listener, you know we like to nerd out and explore things like how seagulls from the 1970s shook up our understanding of what's natural in all of us animals and how far the moon actually is. The usual Made In Cookware is into exploration too, creating products that help us answer questions like have you wanted to cook lobster but balked because the process seemed too intimidating? When it comes to picking the right ones and what tools you need to dig in, it can seem like a lot. Armed with Made In's Stainless Clad stock pot and their how to Cook Lobster blog post, there's no need to be afraid. With their professional grade stainless clad carbon steel, nonstick and enameled cast iron cookware collections, Made in lets you focus on memorable meals. Cook like a pro with Made In. For full details, visit madeincookware.com that's M A D E I N cookware.com Radiolab is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the Name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. Radiolab is supported by Rocket Money. Managing finances can feel complicated and time consuming, right? But it doesn't have to be. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and aims to help lower your bills so you can grow your savings. See all of your subscriptions in one place, and for those you don't want anymore, Rocket Money can help you cancel them. Rocket Money's dashboard also gives you a clear view of your expenses across all of your accounts and can help you easily create a personalized budget with custom categories to help keep your spending on track. Whether your goal is to pay off credit card debt, put away money for a house, or just build your savings, Rocket Money makes it easy. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with rocket Money. Just go to rocketmoney.com rl today. That's rocketmoney.com rl hello, welcome back. This is Radiolab. I'm Latif Nasser. We have already covered two adages today. One was mostly true, one was definitely not. And so for this third and final adage, we decided to take on one that it seems just, just has to be true.

[Alex Neeson]

Number three, what goes up must come down.

[Latif Nasser]

And fact checking, this one we have.

[Kate Hassett]

Okay, here we go. Here we go.

[Latif Nasser]

Producers Annie McEwan.

[Kate Hassett]

It's. It's irrefutable.

[Latif Nasser]

And Maria Paz Gutierrez.

[Kate Hassett]

Just a part of our lives.

[Latif Nasser]

It's basically a law of physics, right?

[Kate Hassett]

I mean, for example, okay, ready? If you take an egg. One, two, three. And you throw it up. Okay. Down it comes. Definitely came down.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah. Feels very inevitable.

[Kate Hassett]

Yeah, came down. Confirmed. But as we stood there looking down at our egg on the ground, we thought, wait a minute. From a journalistic, fact checking perspective, all this proves is that when an egg goes up, it must come down. In this case, there were 1.8 seconds between the up go and the down.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay.

[Kate Hassett]

And we started to wonder, like, what if we could find something that doesn't come down, like, right away?

[Alex Neeson]

Like, maybe there are things out there.

[Kate Hassett]

In the world that test this adage. And if we can find those things, is there a chance, a teeny tiny chance that we could disprove it, even just a little bit?

[Latif Nasser]

Okay, well, what kind of things?

[Kate Hassett]

Ah, the sweet sounds of New York. Well, we went outside to get inside.

[Alex Neeson]

I wonder if that's blood or ketchup.

[Kate Hassett]

And after a bit of haphazard research into things that go up in which. Okay, there's a pigeon on the ground. We chase pigeons. You chase them? I chase them. Hello. We're here to look for balloons. Got some helium balloons. And then they're all dudes with their big pants. Annie even tried to talk to some skateboarders. Excuse us. Can we talk to you for a second about jumping?

[Alex Neeson]

Excuse us.

[Kate Hassett]

Excuse us.

[Alex Neeson]

Will you talk to us? Can we ask you a question? You guys don't want to talk to us?

[Kate Hassett]

No. Okay, but then it's a really pretty sunny day. As we were looking up at the sky. Fluffy clouds, we thought. Clouds like the Simpsons. It does look like the Simpsons. They're basically just water that is up. And so we wondered, how long does it take for water to leave the ground, rise up into the air, become a fluffy white cloud, and then come back down as rain? We looked it up, and the average is about 10 days.

[Latif Nasser]

Really? That's the lifespan of a cloud?

[Kate Hassett]

Yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

I never thought of that. The lifespan of a cloud, that actually doesn't seem that long.

[Kate Hassett]

Well, but there are a bunch of things that stay up in the air longer than clouds, like small particles of dust blown by the wind into the sky can stay up there hanging out in the atmosphere for around 20 days.

[Latif Nasser]

Hmm.

[Kate Hassett]

And then there are these spiders that do this thing called ballooning, where they shoot out these long threads from their butts, and using the wind and the Earth's electric field, they lift off the ground and fly through the air for hundreds of miles, traveling across cities, across deserts, across oceans. And we don't really know how long they stay up there, but we do know they can only go without eating for about 25 days. So they do have to eventually come down to land on top of your head.

[Latif Nasser]

Thank you. But. Okay, so max, 25 days between up and down?

[Kate Hassett]

No, Latif, no. No. Because then there's this bird, this little bird that can do something so amazing, it is just ridiculous. It is ridiculous. It is. So here's the thing about swifts. This is Natural History author Scott Widensaal, who told us about the common swift. They are the most aerial of birds. They're blackish brown, could fit in the palm of your hand, have wings shaped like a boomerang. And they do basically everything in the air. They eat nothing but flying insects. It's thought that the two hemispheres of their brain take turns sleeping, so they can sleep while they fly. They are the only group of birds that mate on the wing.

[Latif Nasser]

Wait, it has sex in the air? How does it do that? Are they both flying?

[Alex Neeson]

Oh, yeah.

[Kate Hassett]

I mean, pictures on the Internet saying they're just stacked on each other.

[Latif Nasser]

They're stacked.

[Kate Hassett]

Stacked, yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay.

[Kate Hassett]

And if they could figure out a way to carry an egg and incubate it on the wing, I'm sure they would do it.

[Latif Nasser]

Oh, because you can't lay an egg while you're.

[Kate Hassett]

Exactly.

[Latif Nasser]

That would be a mistake.

[Kate Hassett]

Yes. And when they migrate to Africa, from the moment they leave their breeding grounds in Central Europe, all the way south to Africa, through the entirety of the winter in Africa and all the way back on their spring migration, they never touch ground. These birds lived up off the ground and don't come down again for 10.

[Alex Neeson]

Months of the year.

[Latif Nasser]

10 months of the year?

[Alex Neeson]

Yes.

[Kate Hassett]

It flies. It flies for 10 straight months.

[Latif Nasser]

They only come to the ground for the.

[Kate Hassett]

The shortest period of time that they possibly can manage. They have stretched the thread connecting them to the ground absolutely to the breaking point.

[Alex Neeson]

Wow.

[Kate Hassett]

And these birds, because they don't often need them, have very tiny legs and feet. So tiny that they can't walk. All they can do is cling.

[Latif Nasser]

Wait, they can't walk at all?

[Kate Hassett]

No. And it made us think like, just like that fish that long ago pulled itself out of the ocean and became a creature of land. Maybe the common swift is on its way to becoming a creature purely of the sky. But then we thought, T minus 10. What about us? Like, we have astronauts. You know the drill. Astronauts. Unlike eggs or clouds or birds, they have rockets. Rockets that have taken them farther than any other species has gone before. And then once they're up there, they can just stay up there.

[Alex Neeson]

Really cool, big space station that you.

[Kate Hassett]

Can fly around just totally floating, Defying.

[Latif Nasser]

Our adage, I'm gonna get Tim to spin me around. Somersaults. Olympic caliber flip technique, backflips. Then you can come right back up again.

[Alex Neeson]

They are truly up, like Superman.

[Kate Hassett]

And theoretically, if they had enough food and supplies, they could stay up there forever, never coming down again. So in conclusion, we have found something that disproves the adage, and therefore the adage is incorrect. Okay, we are done here.

[Alex Neeson]

Yes.

[Kate Hassett]

At least that's what we thought until we talked to Dr. Michelle Thaler.

[Alex Neeson]

I am an astronomer and a science.

[Kate Hassett]

Communicator who told us that. Well, see, although it might look like the astronauts are up there floating. No, they're not.

[Latif Nasser]

They're not.

[Alex Neeson]

Absolutely not.

[Kate Hassett]

No. They're not flying. They're not weightless. They're not in zero g. But instead, up there in the space station, the reason you can put your pen right beside you.

[Alex Neeson]

It'll just float when you let go of it.

[Kate Hassett]

The pen and you are falling towards.

[Alex Neeson]

The earth at exactly the same rate.

[Kate Hassett]

What? They're falling? They're falling?

[Latif Nasser]

Yes.

[Kate Hassett]

Every second of every day they're up there. Their whole space containment, their capsule, their.

[Alex Neeson]

Space station, everything's falling.

[Kate Hassett]

They are freely falling towards the Earth. Oh, my God. I mean, if you've ever been on, like, a really great roller coaster that.

[Alex Neeson]

Drops, you know, that kind of thing.

[Kate Hassett]

I mean, that is what they feel.

[Alex Neeson]

They feel like they're falling. Ugh.

[Kate Hassett]

That's nauseating. Oh, yeah. Some people get very sick.

[Latif Nasser]

Yes, but then why. Why don't they fall straight down and just smack into the Earth?

[Kate Hassett]

Well, Michel says that these astronauts in the space station, they're not falling like how an egg falls when I throw it two, three, straight up in the air. But more like if I took that egg and just threw it as hard as I could. As it's traveling, it is technically falling. It's being pulled down towards the Earth, but it's also zooming forward, and so it travels a certain distance before it inevitably comes down. Okay, now imagine the egg is a space station, and it's just been thrown by rockets upwards and curving away from the Earth into the sky, going so fast, 17,500 miles an hour, and traveling.

[Alex Neeson]

So high and so far, about 200.

[Kate Hassett]

Miles up, that though they are falling instead of hitting the Earth, the Earth curves away as you fall, and you actually kind of keep curving around the Earth. And so every second of every day that it's up there, it basically keeps missing the Earth, never landing, forever coming down and around and down and around and down and around this wonderful kind of stable path called an orbit.

[Latif Nasser]

But haven't we also shot things into space that did not go into orbit? Like we did the story on the Voyager probes? Right? Like, we literally shot them out of the whole solar system. Like, can't you say that those are just going up and up and up? They're not falling.

[Kate Hassett]

Well, actually, they are, yes. According to Michelle, everything is in some way going down and around. The Earth is always falling towards the sun. You know, the sun is falling towards the center of the galaxy, which is.

[Alex Neeson]

A big black hole. We go around the center of the.

[Kate Hassett]

Galaxy at about half a million miles an hour. So right now, you are freely falling towards a giant black hole at half a million miles an hour. You personally, Maria Paz. You personally, yes. And what's the galaxy falling? The galaxy is also freely falling. You got it. The Milky Way galaxy is freely falling towards the middle of a galactic cluster.

[Alex Neeson]

At more than a million miles an hour.

[Kate Hassett]

Don't you see it?

[Alex Neeson]

We're always falling. Nothing is holding you up.

[Kate Hassett]

I just feel like throwing up.

[Alex Neeson]

Yeah, me too.

[Kate Hassett]

I really, really feel like throwing up.

[Latif Nasser]

Whoa. So is this one true or no?

[Kate Hassett]

Well, I think yes, it is, but it's different than what we originally thought. Like, when we started out, we thought down was like falling on the pavement like an egg or falling to Earth as rain, or landing on a branch like a bird. Things go up, and then they must come down, and then they're down. But what we found is that all that stuff that appears to be down isn't really down, but it's actually in a perpetual state of coming down. So maybe it's not what goes up must come down, but really everything that.

[Alex Neeson]

Is must come down forever.

[Latif Nasser]

That sounds depressing.

[Kate Hassett]

I don't know. I mean, like, I think it's really cool. Like, it's almost as if we're on this rock, but we're just like those astronauts.

[Alex Neeson]

Woo.

[Kate Hassett]

Floating and somersaulting and like, flying like Superman. Woo. Forever and ever and ever.

[Alex Neeson]

Ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever. Necessity is the mother of invention. Yeah, I guess so. But let's think about all the things.

[Latif Nasser]

That were invented by accident where, like, no one was even trying to invent shit that day. And they ended up making a new medication or discovering a new element or whatever. Big thanks to Chioki Ianson, who performed our voice of wisdom for this episode.

[Kate Hassett]

Morgan Freeman was not available.

[Latif Nasser]

If his voice sounds familiar, it's because he does the underwriting for npr.

[Alex Neeson]

I spend most of my life as a disembodied voice.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah, tell me about it. This episode was reported and produced by Alex Neeson, Simon Adler, Matt Kilty, Sindhunyana Samadhan W. Harry Fortuna, Annie McKeown and Maria Paz Gutierrez.

[Alex Neeson]

Absence makes the heart grow fonder. What are you saying here? We need some space.

[Latif Nasser]

It was edited by Alex Neeson and Pat Walters, fact checked by Emily Krieger and Diane Kelly, and has original music and sound design by Jeremy Blue.

[Alex Neeson]

Good things come to those who wait.

[Latif Nasser]

This one I hate.

[Alex Neeson]

Awful things also come to those who wait. So what are we doing here? What's happening?

[Latif Nasser]

Special thanks to Pamela Dark, Daniella Mursillo and Jonathan Schooler, as well as Amanda Breen, Akmal Tajahan, Patrick Keane, Stephanie Leschek and Alexandria Iona from the Upright Citizens Brigade. To Alex's crew, we run uptown. And coaches Ref and patty from Circa 95, Julia Lucas and Coffee Rafi from the no Name program, Diane Kelly, Hilly Bressler, Kim Ward Wong and Tom Friedman.

[Alex Neeson]

I don't know that I would use any of these in my regular life.

[Latif Nasser]

And of course, thank you for listening. I'm Latif Nasser, this is Radiolab. We'll be back soon with more stories, more questions, and if I'm being honest, questionable wisdom. But I can promise it'll be factual. So until then.

[Alex Neeson]

Hey, I'm Lemon and I'm from Richmond, Indiana, and here are the staff credits. Radiolab was created by Jad Abumrad and is edited by Soren Wheeler. Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser are our co hosts. Dylan Keefe is our Director of Sound design. Our staff in includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Bressler, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Maria Paz Gutierrez, Sindhunyan Sambandan, Matt Kielty, Rebecca Lacks, Annie McEwan, Alex Neeson, Sara Khari, Sarah Sandbach, Anisa Vita, Arianne Wack, Pat Walters and Molly Webster. Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger and Natalie Middleton.

[Latif Nasser]

Hi, my name is Tresa.

[Alex Neeson]

I'm calling from Colchester in Essex, uk. Leadership support for Radiolab science programming is.

[Kate Hassett]

Provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore.

[Alex Neeson]

Foundation Science Sandbox Samans Foundation Initiative and the John Templeton Foundation.

[Kate Hassett]

Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by.

[Alex Neeson]

The Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

[Latif Nasser]

NYC now delivers breaking news, top headlines and in depth coverage from WNYC and Gothamist every morning, midday and evening. By sponsoring our programming, you'll reach a community of passionate listeners in an uncluttered audio experience. Visit sponsorship wnyc. Org to learn more.