Radiolab: “Debatable” (March 11, 2016)
Podcast by WNYC Studios
Hosted by Jad Abumrad, Robert Krulwich
Story reported by Abigail Keel

Episode Overview

"Debatable" follows the journey of Ryan Wash, a trailblazing Black, queer debater, who upended the world of competitive debate by challenging its norms from the inside. The episode explores how debate, often seen as a game of logic and research, became a stage for the performance of identity, lived experience, race, and queerness. It delves into the evolution—and revolution—of high school and collegiate debate culture, the struggle for inclusion and fairness, and the meaning of “home” in competitive spaces.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins: Ryan Wash’s Entry to Debate (05:08–09:45)

• Ryan grew up in Kansas City, MO, at a 99% Black public school, “tricked” into joining debate after winning a chess tournament.
• At first, debate is fun and familiar—mock tournaments debating “Pepsi vs. Coke”—filled with camaraderie and affirmation.
• Impact Analysis: The practice of weighing arguments’ consequences—a core debate skill—becomes second nature, but Ryan soon questions its real-world relevance.

“I felt as if I could never take any of the stuff that I learned in debate and take it back to 3,304 Askew where I lived.” – Ryan Wash (13:07)

2. Culture Clash: Encountering the Debate Mainstream (09:45–13:31)

• Ryan’s first national tournament exposes racial and resource divides—his team is met with silence and stares as they enter.
• Debate at this level is dominated by “spreading” (speed reading), a technique born from student competition and escalating argument counts.
• This hypertechnical, resource-intensive style amplifies existing social inequalities.

3. The Turning Point: Redefining Debate (13:31–23:15)

• Teaming with senior debater Marshana, Ryan is handed materials filled not just with evidence, but with Maya Angelou and Ralph Ellison, introducing him to performance and personal narrative in debate.
• Marshana disrupts the typical debate format with spoken word, critiquing debate’s norms as exclusionary and favoring affluent, white participants.
• When the opposing team dismisses their style as “not real debate,” Marshana and Ryan use the moment as evidence of exclusion—a meta-argument that wins them the round.

"'You should go down the hall, because that's where poetry prose is held. This is academic debate.'... And I was sitting to myself thinking, okay, how am I gonna extend this?" – Ryan Wash (18:00)

• The judges are confronted: stick to the original policy topic, or acknowledge that the rules themselves are debatable—a pivotal conversation about the politics of argument.

4. Systemic Change & the Louisville Project (24:21–30:18)

• The influx of Black debaters, spurred by George Soros–funded urban debate leagues, leads to “the Louisville Project”: predominantly Black teams at the University of Louisville center debate around race and performance, refusing to “play the game” by traditional rules.
• This new methodology returns to Aristotle’s pillars of rhetoric—ethos (credibility), pathos (emotion), logos (logic)—and introduces hip-hop, personal narrative, and spoken word as valid forms of argument.

“They would say things to Louisville like, you know, this isn’t research. This is me-search… hip-hop does not belong here… your argument style doesn’t belong here.” – Shanara Reid Brinkley (28:44)

• Dr. Shanara Reid Brinkley explains why instructing students to “leave their identity at the door” is “anti-Black… anti-everything,” affirming that debate can never be divorced from the speaker’s reality.

5. Ryan Wash’s College Career & Debating as a Queer Black Man (30:23–37:29)

• Ryan continues debating through college, facing losses and skepticism as he refuses to hide his identity in the debate round.
• Critical advice from mentor Rashad Evans: “You will always be black and queer in these spaces… rather than attempting to hide parts of yourself, you should be fully you.” (34:22)
• Forming a groundbreaking team with Elijah Smith, another queer Black man, Wash shifts from “practicing ethos, pathos, logos to being it.” (35:13)

6. Victory: The Historic NDT Finals (37:29–53:09)

Setting the Stage (37:29–41:16)

• The National Debate Tournament is dominated by powerhouse, predominantly white elite schools; Emporia State (Ryan and Elijah) is a major underdog.
• The finals: Emporia State vs. 14-time champion Northwestern. The room is racially and socially segregated, and all judges are white.

The Debate (41:16–51:04)

• The topic: Should the US change alternative energy policy? Ryan and Elijah “refuse the frame”, arguing about “home”—whether debate itself can be home for marginalized people.
• Ryan draws on The Wiz (the all-Black Wizard of Oz adaptation), equating Dorothy’s yearning for home with their own search for belonging.
• Northwestern’s case is topicality: the debate should stick to the official subject. They argue fairness—the worth of countless hours and resources expended to prepare.
• Ryan, exhausted and running mostly on emotion (“the shande”), discards his notes and delivers a speech from the soul about the necessity of space for Black and queer bodies in debate and the broken promise of fairness.

“This is all the fuck I got. I don't know what the fuck I'm gonna do when this debate is over… But I know one thing… I’m gonna make room for those other choir body that have never ever fucking had a right to speak…” – Ryan Wash (49:17–50:14)

The Decision (51:04–54:17)

• Judge Scott Harris struggles: Northwestern is technically flawless, but Ryan and Elijah’s performance is undeniable proof of preparedness and transformative impact.
• Decision: Emporia wins, 3–2—history is made.

“It was significant. It was powerful. It was beautiful. But it was very clear to us very early on that not much had changed by the time we got into the next year.” – Shanara Reid Brinkley (55:49)

7. Aftermath & Reflection (55:28–end)

• Ryan is stoic about his victory (“I just want to stay focused.”); real change is slow, even after historic wins.
• The next year brings backlash, resistance, and talk of segregating performance-style teams from traditional debate.
• Robert Krulwich reflects that Ryan’s journey feels “lonely but beautiful.”
• Ryan agrees, closing the episode with a sense of both isolation and pride in the struggle.

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Quote | Speaker | |-------------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|------------------------------| | 13:07 | “I felt as if I could never take any of the stuff that I learned in debate and take it back to 3,304 Askew where I lived.” | Ryan Wash | | 18:00 | "'You should go down the hall, because that's where poetry prose is held. This is academic debate.'... How am I gonna extend this?" | Ryan Wash | | 28:44 | “They would say things... you know, this isn’t research. This is me-search… hip-hop does not belong here.” | Shanara Reid Brinkley | | 34:22 | “You will always be black and queer in these spaces… rather than attempting to hide parts of yourself, you should be fully you.” | Rashad Evans via S.R. Brinkley| | 49:17–50:14 | “This is all the fuck I got. I don't know what the fuck I'm gonna do when this debate is over… But I know one thing… I’m gonna make room for those other choir body that have never ever fucking had a right to speak…” | Ryan Wash | | 55:49 | “It was an important win. It was significant. It was powerful. It was beautiful. But it was very clear to us very early on that not much had changed by the time we got into the next year.” | Shanara Reid Brinkley |

Important Timestamps

• 05:08 – Ryan describes being "tricked" into debate.
• 09:45 – The shock of entering a white-dominated debate circuit.
• 13:31 – Meeting Marshana, encounter with performance debate.
• 18:00–20:00 – “You should go down the hall… This is academic debate.”
• 24:21–30:18 – The Louisville Project and birth of performance debate.
• 34:22 – “Be fully you”—Rashad Evans’ advice.
• 41:16–51:04 – 2013 NDT Final Round: arguments, performance, and cathartic speeches.
• 53:05 – Announcement: Emporia State wins.
• 55:28–end – Reflection on wins, backlash, and the slow pace of change.

Tone and Style

The episode blends reflection, righteous anger, humor, and warmth, maintaining Radiolab's signature sound layering and narrative dynamism. Ryan Wash’s voice is at once sharp, passionate, and self-effacing; the hosts oscillate between investigative skepticism and empathy; Dr. Reid Brinkley provides rich contextual and scholarly insight.

Final Thoughts

"Debatable" is a nuanced, moving episode spotlighting the possibilities and limitations of traditional institutions in adapting to lived experience. It interrogates who gets to be heard, the invisible costs of “fairness,” and the transformative power—yet enduring loneliness—of challenging the system from within. The episode ultimately asks: What does it mean to win if the rules—and the “home”—remain in question?

Recommended for listeners interested in race, education, the politics of belonging, and the power (and limits) of performance and protest in institutional spaces.