Desperately Seeking Symmetry

Summary

Radiolab Episode Summary: "Desperately Seeking Symmetry"

Release Date: July 11, 2025
Hosts: Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser (original system message mentions Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, but current hosting is by Lulu and Latif)

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1. Aristophanes' Parable and the Quest for Wholeness [00:00–04:09]

The episode begins with a compelling retelling of an ancient parable from Aristophanes, as introduced by host Latif Nasser (00:00). This story narrates a time when humans were originally born as two beings fused together—men with men, women with women, possessing eight limbs that allowed them to roll instead of walk. However, driven by arrogance and the desire to surpass the gods, humans attempted to seize control of heaven. In response, the gods severed them into separate halves, instilling within each person an enduring longing for their original other half. This innate search for wholeness continues to drive human connections and relationships today.

Notable Quote:
Robert Krulwich ([00:43]): “...there was a longing for that original other half of ourselves...”

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2. Exploring Brain Synchronization with Lauren Silbert [04:09–19:18]

Neuroscientist Lauren Silbert from Princeton University delves into the phenomenon of brain synchronization during moments of deep connection. Using advanced brain scanning technology, Silbert investigates what transpires in our brains when two people "click."

She recounts a personal story from her high school prom (07:02), where she navigated complex social dynamics between two suitors, leading to an unexpected and chaotic prom night. By narrating her prom experience within a brain scanner, Silbert observed how listeners' brains responded to her story.

Key Findings:

• Brain Coupling: Individuals who successfully recalled Silbert's story exhibited significant synchronization of their brain voxels with hers. This suggests a shared neural experience during deep understanding and connection.

• Exceptional Cases: One notable subject, a fellow named Lauren, showed exceptionally high brain coupling, prompting Silbert to seek out this individual. Despite efforts, their potential connection remained elusive, highlighting the complexities of neural and personal symmetry.

Notable Quotes:

• Lauren Silbert ([05:27]): “...examining the clicking question...”
• Silbert ([05:22]): “There's nothing that really feels better than that.”

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3. Mirror Symmetry and Its Psychological Impact [23:17–50:40]

The episode transitions to the concept of mirror symmetry and its broader implications in both physics and personal perception. Drawing from the works of mathematician Lewis Carroll and physicist Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, the discussion explores the idea of chirality—how molecules can exist in mirror-image forms that are not superimposable.

Key Points:

• Chirality in Molecules:

  • Neil deGrasse Tyson explains that chirality refers to the property where molecules are mirror images of each other, much like left and right hands. These mirror-image molecules, or enantiomers, have identical physical properties except for their interaction with polarized light and biological systems.

  • Marcelo Gleiser discusses how life on Earth exclusively uses left-handed molecules, creating a profound asymmetry in biology. This exclusivity has significant implications, such as the tragic thalidomide disaster, where the mirror image of a therapeutic molecule proved lethal.

John Walter's Story: John Walter shares a personal anecdote about altering his hair part from left to right, believing it would change his social interactions. Although initially successful in gaining social acceptance, the narrative humorously questions the true impact of such superficial changes.

Notable Quotes:

• Marcelo Gleiser ([27:33]): “...the chirality of life...”
• John Walter ([36:37]): “This is a true mirror...”

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4. The Matter-Antimatter Asymmetry of the Universe [50:40–62:12]

Concluding the exploration of symmetry, the episode delves into one of the most profound mysteries in physics: the matter-antimatter asymmetry of the universe. Physicist Marcelo Gleiser and astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson discuss why the universe consists predominantly of matter, with antimatter being exceedingly rare.

Key Concepts:

• Big Bang and the Primeval Soup:
  At the universe's inception, a hot, dense state existed where particles and their antiparticles should have been created in equal amounts. However, annihilation should have left the universe devoid of matter.

• Baryon Asymmetry:
  Theories suggest that a slight excess of matter over antimatter (roughly one part in a billion) allowed atoms to form, ultimately leading to the existence of stars, planets, and life.

• Current Understanding:
  Despite advances, the reason for this asymmetry remains unanswered, posing one of the biggest questions in cosmology.

Notable Quotes:

• Neil deGrasse Tyson ([52:38]): “It's shocking that there's any matter in the universe at all.”
• Marcelo Gleiser ([60:07]): “We are the result of this asymmetry.”

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Conclusion

"Desperately Seeking Symmetry" intertwines ancient philosophy, neuroscience, personal stories, and cutting-edge physics to explore the fundamental nature of symmetry and its absence. From the eternal human quest for completeness to the intricate dance of molecules in our biology and the very fabric of the cosmos, the episode paints a rich tapestry of how symmetry—or its lack—shapes our existence.

For more information, visuals of Abraham Lincoln's mirror images, and additional insights from the episode, visit Radiolab's website.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Robert Krulwich ([00:43]): “...there was a longing for that original other half of ourselves...”

• Lauren Silbert ([05:27]): “...examining the clicking question...”

• Neil deGrasse Tyson ([52:38]): “It's shocking that there's any matter in the universe at all.”

• Marcelo Gleiser ([27:33]): “...the chirality of life...”

• John Walter ([36:37]): “This is a true mirror...”

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Note: Advertisements and non-content segments have been intentionally excluded from this summary to focus solely on the episode's core discussions and narratives.

Transcript

[Jad Abumrad]

Hey i'm latif nasser this is radiolab and today we're bringing back a classic episode from way back in the jad and robert days it starts with an ancient parable winds its way through a brain scanner a trick mirror and a disastrous high school prom night and somehow ends with the big bang here it is wait you're listening okay all right okay all right you're listening to radio from wnyc rewind.

[Robert Krulwich]

So you're gonna identify the washington place cause i can't remember.

[Jad Abumrad]

What it is yeah yeah yeah okay.

[Robert Krulwich]

Three two one ready i am ready but we should tell the audience that we're not gonna we're gonna start this not in our usual studio spot not.

[Jad Abumrad]

Here here where we're sitting now here just to explain this is the shakespeare theater in dc recently robert and i were there in front of about eight hundred folks just trying out some mater.

[Robert Krulwich]

Beginning with this story which comes from plato actually by way of aristophanes it's a two four zero zero year old.

[Jad Abumrad]

Story breaking news in other words yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

And it goes like this once upon a time he says people were not born separate from each other they were born entwined kind of coupled with each other so there were boys attached to boys and there were girls attached to girls and of course boys and girls together in a wonderfully intimate ball and back then we had eight limbs there were four on top four on the bottom and you didn't have to walk if you didn't want to you could roll and roll we did we rolled backwards and we rolled forwards achieving fantastic speeds that gave us a kind of courage and then the courage swelled to pride and the pride became arrogance and then we decided that we were greater than the gods and we tried to roll up and take over heaven and the gods alarm struck back and zeus in his fury hurled down lightning bolts and struck everyone in two into perfect halves so all of a sudden couples who'd been warm and tight and wedged together were now detached and alone and lost and desperate and losing the will to live and the gods seeing what they'd done worried that humans might not survive or even multiply again and of course they needed humans to give sacrifices and pay attention to them so the gods decided on a few repairs instead of heads facing backwards or out they would rotate our heads back forward they pulled our skin taut and knotted it right here at the belly button genitalia too were moved to the front so if we wanted to we could and most important they left us with a memory it was a longing for that original other half of ourselves the boy or the girl who used to make us whole and that longing is still so deep in all of us men for men women for women men for women for each other that it has been the lot of humans ever since to travel the world looking for our other half and when says aristophanes when one of us meets another we recognize each other right away we just know this we're lost in an amazement of love and friendship and intimacy we won't get out of each other's sight even for a moment these are people he says who pass their whole lives together and yet if you ask them they could not explain what they desire of each other they just.

[Jad Abumrad]

Very nice thank.

[Robert Krulwich]

You thank you very much thank you.

[Jad Abumrad]

So here's the thing that story got us started on a little journey truly began just thinking about wholeness and oneness and haves looking for each other in all varieties of ways mirrors and shapes relationships beauty the birth of the universe the nature of life all of these.

[Robert Krulwich]

Things either have a simple deep beauty.

[Jad Abumrad]

Or not i'm jad abumrad i'm robert krulwich this is radiolab and today for this hour we are desperately seeking symmetry by the way that was zoe keating on cello we'll hear more from her throughout the hour cause she's awesome all right bobby kay mm still thinking about aristophanes okay and do you ever wonder what actually happens when two people click when the haves kind of meet meaning what you know you're going through your day maybe you're at a party you meet people and you're like hey how are you how are you and they say something and they try and be interesting you try and be interesting back but in the end you're like i don't need to remember that name right.

[Robert Krulwich]

Of course yeah gone and then comes along somebody yeah every hundred times the.

[Jad Abumrad]

Stars align the world falls away things narrow and you just.

[Robert Krulwich]

Click i know.

[Jad Abumrad]

That but do you ever wonder what actually happens in that moment like when.

[Lauren Silbert]

You meet someone that you really get i just i don't think that there's anything that really feels better than that.

[Jad Abumrad]

That'S lauren silbert she's a neuroscientist at princeton she wonders she's been wondering for.

[Lauren Silbert]

A while when i was i don't know maybe eight and i used to study with my dad we would go over things and i remember like i didn't understand this one like math problem and he was explaining it to me and all of a sudden i got it and i started to cry and he got really nervous because i was crying why were you crying because i was so excited that i like finally got it that's my first memory of really like being excited about the intensity.

[Jad Abumrad]

Of understanding so fast forward twenty years lauren is at princeton and in the basement of a building here can you just tell me where we are we.

[Lauren Silbert]

Are in the fnri facilities in green.

[Jad Abumrad]

Hall at princeton they've got this giant brain scanner looks like an airplane engine.

[Robert Krulwich]

More like a donut you can go.

[Jad Abumrad]

With donut and as you know with the scanner you can put people in it and have them do tasks think think a thought or sing a song or watch a movie and then the researchers can see into their brain you know without having to cut in there and lauren got it into her head could i use this big donut to investigate the clicking question so is the question when things click what clicks what.

[Lauren Silbert]

Clicks and if we can know what clicks can we learn how to make.

[Jad Abumrad]

It click more so one day last year lauren got into the brain scanner.

[Lauren Silbert]

I sort of like it in there.

[Jad Abumrad]

And she told this story can you just tell me that story well it's.

[Lauren Silbert]

A fifteen minute come on okay so i told the story have i actually.

[Jad Abumrad]

Told you the whole thing without any sort of rehearsal i think maybe well.

[Robert Krulwich]

Twenty seven times something something under thirty.

[Jad Abumrad]

Under thirty times i'm gonna but one more time for everybody else play along so the story is about her prom uh huh so lauren is in high school and this guy that she doesn't really like asked her to go to the prom hmm pretty awkward but she's like oh okay you know didn't know what to say now subsequent to being asked by the first guy she actually falls for real for a second guy.

[Lauren Silbert]

Guy number two we just liked each.

[Jad Abumrad]

Other click so now she has a situation cause she likes the second guy said yes to the first guy and.

[Robert Krulwich]

He still wants to be the date he wants to be the date yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oddly enough he still wants to go with her so she ends up going with guy number one so we get.

[Lauren Silbert]

To the prom and guy number two.

[Jad Abumrad]

Her boyfriend shows up drunk very drunk punches fly it gets messy so she drags guy number two her boyfriend out to the parking lot but on the.

[Lauren Silbert]

Way to the car he trips and falls directly on his face right onto his face right onto his face on.

[Jad Abumrad]

The concrete and he starts putting bleeding profusely so she's like ugh give me your keys i'm gonna drive i'll drive your car and she doesn't have a license but he can't drive so she drives them both out of the parking lot a couple minutes later they come.

[Robert Krulwich]

Upon an accident in the street yeah.

[Jad Abumrad]

It'S right there some cars got into a thing so they're rolling up to it i get distracted and she crashes into the accident that had already happened.

[Lauren Silbert]

I'M going very very slowly and it's just that the police were already there.

[Jad Abumrad]

And they like watched so the officer walks up sees her no license sees this dude who's all bloody and messy and was like alright give me your registration she thinks she's going to jail but here is where fate steps in as the officer is walking back to his car with her registration a wind a lucky wind one of those kicks up blows the registration out of the officer's hands he can't find it and he has no choice but to let.

[Lauren Silbert]

Her go so then i just left so that was the story that forms.

[Jad Abumrad]

The basis of this project okay that is the story that forms the basis of this project okay so now let's rewind so anyhow she told that story in the scanner all the while the scanner snapped pictures of her brain tick tick moment to moment then she got a bunch of other people put them in the scanner and had the scanner snap pictures of their brain as they're.

[Lauren Silbert]

Listening to the story you with me.

[Jad Abumrad]

So far yep next she compared brains.

[Lauren Silbert]

Okay so here i can show you.

[Jad Abumrad]

Lauren showed us brain scans where she divided each brain into thousands of tiny little squares that we call voxels thousands.

[Lauren Silbert]

Thousands yeah so then what we can do is we can take one voxel in one brain and directly compare it to the same exact voxel in the.

[Jad Abumrad]

Other brain shut up wow and we.

[Lauren Silbert]

Do this across the entire brain and.

[Jad Abumrad]

This is where things get interesting when people really got her story because she had run them through all these tests to see if they could remember the different chapters the words she used or.

[Robert Krulwich]

She was checking to see how well.

[Jad Abumrad]

They listened yeah she would have them kind of recall the story okay some were really good at recalling others not so much now the people that did well like really well she found that as they were listening to her story their brain would literally begin to mirror hers all the little voxels in their head would start to sync up with all the little voxels in her head.

[Robert Krulwich]

So they're just listening like anyone listens they're just hearing what she i get.

[Jad Abumrad]

That no no let me put it to you a different way you're right i mean right now you and i our voxels are mirroring each other you know like we're both speaking english yeah so we can assume say twenty percent.

[Robert Krulwich]

At least i would go twenty three.

[Jad Abumrad]

Twenty four let's say twenty four okay but let's say you bump it up to thirty maybe bump it up to thirty five let's get a little higher forty forty two forty eight forty nine.

[Robert Krulwich]

I understood you at a fifty percent.

[Jad Abumrad]

Level but let's say we get to fifty percent even sixty there's a certain point at which something happens where it's no longer me just describing an experience to you it's you actually having the experience you know ah yeah like you know that the difference between explanation and experience is like the grand canyon right yes well she's found a way to.

[Robert Krulwich]

Quantify the gap so when i'm sitting there listening to meryl streep i'm all meryl inside outside and all around yeah that's one hundred percent meryl if you're listening that's one hundred percent meryl streep.

[Jad Abumrad]

She is not listening to this you were saying i'll give you an example of what i was just saying here let me show you so while i was in lauren's office she showed me this particular slide of her results so.

[Lauren Silbert]

On this side we have this comprehension rank and what that means basically it.

[Jad Abumrad]

Was a graph and on one axis she had how much they actually understood the story and could recall it and on the other axis she had how much their brain synced up with hers which is sort of like how much they experienced the story what are these marks by the way are these pictures.

[Lauren Silbert]

Yeah sorry about the mark wait these little x's oh these are individual subjects i see so if you take out this one outlier actually she pointed to.

[Jad Abumrad]

This one subject who was way on one side of the graph so that person just didn't get your story at.

[Lauren Silbert]

All no this person actually that person.

[Jad Abumrad]

Did understand her story scored really nice on comprehension but just didn't sync up with her brain at all this person.

[Lauren Silbert]

This person i well so this is a little interesting to admit i know.

[Jad Abumrad]

This person you know this person i know this person yeah to that person i'm almost positive is her fiance yeah.

[Lauren Silbert]

It was there were some fights in.

[Jad Abumrad]

Jest or for real i mean for.

[Lauren Silbert]

Real i don't think he was actually paying attention but this one up here.

[Jad Abumrad]

She pointed to another subject all the way on the other side of the graph who was a super brain coupling.

[Lauren Silbert]

Master was a girl in undergrad who i had never met before and her brain coupled with my brain was twice as much as everybody else i mean really just like i contacted her after because i wanted to have lunch with her and just see if we're the same person or not and and she never got back to me what i know isn't that crazy really it was sort of the end of their semester and i think she might have been.

[Jad Abumrad]

Away in the weeks after i spoke with lauren we emailed a few times and i kept asking her i was like so what about that girl the.

[Robert Krulwich]

One who knew everything yeah like how.

[Jad Abumrad]

Do you explain the connection is it a connection let's go meet her come on come on come on she didn't want to no she did actually and we started referring to the girl in email as a bd bd meaning what meaning brain double bd bd bd i.

[Robert Krulwich]

See brain double brain double brain double.

[Jad Abumrad]

Anyhow eventually after two weeks of constant emailing and searching bd turns up and agrees to meet the meeting took place on a sunny tuesday afternoon at princeton and i missed it because i was on the wrong train when i finally get there bd has come and gone.

[Robert Krulwich]

So you never laid eyes on bd.

[Jad Abumrad]

I did not but i talked to lauren right after she had it was weird really we sat down on a bench and she gave me the scoop okay you seem a little shaken yeah.

[Lauren Silbert]

It was a strange experience first thing.

[Jad Abumrad]

She tells me is that the mystery girl's name is her name lauren my name as well she was lauren and.

[Lauren Silbert]

You were lauren yes we're both named lauren wow i know it's weird but there's kind of almost out there i.

[Jad Abumrad]

Know but still that's so weird at this point i'm like i mean this is like an aristophanes whopper here folks that's what i was thinking and that's what lauren told me that she had been expecting too yeah beforehand i was.

[Lauren Silbert]

Expecting her to come in and just.

[Jad Abumrad]

Like be me and when she showed up was she you no not at all yeah earlier they had met at a coffee shop and since i missed the whole thing i was very lucky that laura number one had recorded the.

[Lauren Silbert]

Meeting on her laptop okay so i want to know did you where did you grow up i grew up in.

[Jad Abumrad]

Vancouver in vancouver yeah lauren wan's theory was that they would have a common background or a common something that would explain the symmetry between them but what you hear is loren juan looking for points of connection and well listen okay.

[Lauren Silbert]

Do you prom in canada is that a stupid question well we do i actually couldn't go to mine you didn't go to your prom yeah okay i wish i could have did you did you have like significant relationships in high school no no not at all i went to an all girls school you went to an all girls school did you have to wear uniforms yeah was.

[Jad Abumrad]

It like catholic in the end there was not one thing they had in common except their names in princeton you.

[Robert Krulwich]

Thought that this was going to be.

[Jad Abumrad]

You know something i don't know is.

[Robert Krulwich]

It maybe your premise is wrong what do you mean well actually i snuck up to columbia university and i asked a neuroscientist about this actually when did you do that while you were in princeton i was on the subway going up to see joy hurt hi hi.

[Jad Abumrad]

What nice to meet you you went.

[Robert Krulwich]

Behind my back what happened is i said to her look we have this pretty great paper and she agreed it was a wonderful paper i said it shows these two women who seem to be in such lockstep wouldn't you suppose that the two of them if they ever met would become friendly or have.

[Jad Abumrad]

Some connection yeah would you come to the same conclusion if yours and my heartbeats were exactly the same.

[Robert Krulwich]

Depends on the circumstances if it was a beautiful night at a sinking moon in venice maybe.

[Jad Abumrad]

If you have elaborated the story beyond my question say your heart beat is about sixty two beats per minute say mine was exactly sixty two beats per minute would you say that we were more in sync than if mine was seventy two beats per minute that you and i were more soulmates no.

[Robert Krulwich]

Probably not i want to but i don't know if i you see i would want to don't you want to when you see synchrony between individuals well.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yes but i'm saying that i think that the conclusion doesn't follow from the.

[Robert Krulwich]

Data joy says it's equally possible that.

[Jad Abumrad]

Lauren two is just an extraordinarily good listener hello hey hey can you hear.

[Eisha]

Me okay yeah yeah i can hear.

[Jad Abumrad]

You in fact when i finally got lauren two on the phone she did tell me that she is one of those people that when she hears a story she just falls in to the.

[Eisha]

Point where somebody can be a and i don't hear it because i'm so focused on the book yeah how do i explain it so have you ever done any any sports soccer a little bit yeah do you ever find that sometimes when you're playing soccer you are so into the game and just reacting or whatever that you kind of lose track of yourself for a little bit.

[Jad Abumrad]

Yeah it's like a dream state almost.

[Eisha]

Yeah like a dream state i definitely have that happen when i'm doing sports but i also sometimes have that happen.

[Jad Abumrad]

When i when i read even so do you think that you and lauren one will become friends.

[Eisha]

I honestly probably not no no.

[Lauren Silbert]

I mean we're just i just i just don't i wouldn't.

[Jad Abumrad]

I just wouldn't but she's you but not you don't you want to hang out with her don't you need to.

[Robert Krulwich]

Know her okay jen thank you very much why don't you just sit down just for a second we're gonna play a little but there's more come on i think we can just repair all the damage that has just occurred to your sensitive psyche just listen and we'll be right back.

[Latif Nasser]

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[Jad Abumrad]

Chirality take thirty thousand yay i'm chad abumrad i'm robert krulwich this is radiolab and today we are desperately seeking symmetry and thus far we.

[Robert Krulwich]

Are failing desperately because maybe you know if we took if we rejiggered our whole approach because symmetry you know is really about love no it's it's what no we're changing the subject now it's about the way things look when they're flying flipped around or turned or rotated and this is where it gets really interesting reflected reflected yes reflected because there was a math reflected yes there was a mathematician at oxford university named charles.

[Jad Abumrad]

Lutwidge dotson there's a mathy name for.

[Robert Krulwich]

You well he had a different name as it happens what lewis carroll oh.

[Jad Abumrad]

Like the alice in wonderland dude the.

[Robert Krulwich]

Alice in wonderland dude yeah he was.

[Jad Abumrad]

A mathematician he was i really didn't.

[Robert Krulwich]

Know that did you know that he wrote another book called through the looking.

[Jad Abumrad]

Glass truthfully i didn't know they were.

[Robert Krulwich]

Different books you know very little in this particular section of our book i really don't but there's a part of the book where alice is standing in her room talking to her cat now.

[Latif Nasser]

If you'll only attend kitty and not talk so much i'll tell you all about my ideas about looking glass house.

[Robert Krulwich]

This is natasha gostwick reading and in this section of the book alice is telling her cat let's take a look at the difference between our world and that world right there in the mirror.

[Latif Nasser]

That'S just the same as our drawing room only the things go the other way the books are something like our books only the words go the wrong way i know that because i've held up one of our books to the glass and then they hold up one in the other room how would you like to live in a looking glass house kitty i wonder if if they give you milk in there perhaps looking glass milk isn't good to drink perhaps.

[Robert Krulwich]

Mirror milk isn't good to drink she says.

[Jad Abumrad]

Why are you talking like that what does that even mean well if.

[Robert Krulwich]

You just stick with me on this i think i'll make it perfectly clear okay this is a very as it turns out difficult scientific question yes they.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Call it a chirality chi what shh this is neil degrasse tyson neil n e i l degrasse small d e capital g r a s s e.

[Robert Krulwich]

Tyson he's an astrophysicist with the american.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Museum of natural history also the director.

[Robert Krulwich]

Of the hayden planetarium cool what is.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Chirality well it's when you make a molecule there's no rule or law that says it has to be symmetric neil.

[Robert Krulwich]

Says if you zoom into that bowl of milk what you're gonna find is just chains of atoms that are stuck together in a very particular shape and.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That shape it could curl in a particular way so for example if you have a spring and you turn your finger in the direction the spring spring like a coil a coil like the spring out of your your click pen pull out that spring all right we.

[Robert Krulwich]

Have a pen right here undo your.

[Jad Abumrad]

Pen pull it out i got spring out here we go and look at.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

The way the spring turns looking at the spring and move your finger in the direction it turns moving my finger.

[Jad Abumrad]

It'S turning clockwise clockwise all the way.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Up to the top okay that spring is that way in its life whether.

[Robert Krulwich]

It'S right side up or upside down doesn't matter always clockwise but if you had a mirror jad do you happen to have something do i have a mirror no or take your phone it has a reflected shiny thing okay put your spring in front of the shiny surface of the phone trace the spring with your finger and tell me which direction is your finger going clockwise no we already did this in the reflection.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh in the phone it's kind of hard to tell in the phone it's going the opposite way yes counterclockwise exactly.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And so now you have two oppositely turned springs you cannot turn one into the other they're built differently yet they are curiously identical so since molecules are just sequences of atoms imagine a molecule.

[Robert Krulwich]

That has that shape if you put that molecule in front of a mirror just the same as the spring you've got now two molecules built differently but curiously identical kind of like your right hand and your left hand your left.

[Marcelo Gleiser]

Hand and your right hand are related by a mirror image it's the same thing with these molecules this is marcelo.

[Robert Krulwich]

Gleiser he's a physicist at dartmouth college and according to marcelo this is how scientists talk about molecules they call them.

[Marcelo Gleiser]

Righties they call them lefties sometimes we call it handedness sometimes we get a little more fancy and we call it chirality because chiro kyros in greek means.

[Robert Krulwich]

Hand and marcelo says if you look at pebbles or granite or cement inanimate stuff when you look at the shape of things inside it's a mixture of.

[Marcelo Gleiser]

The two fifty percent left handed fifty.

[Robert Krulwich]

Percent right handed however if you look.

[Marcelo Gleiser]

At all the proteins of living things they are always left handed and no right handed at all really life has.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Chosen one over the other life as we know it has chosen you think.

[Jad Abumrad]

When scientists look inside of living things they always see the molecules are pointing.

[Marcelo Gleiser]

One way yeah right so somehow and this is what's really amazing somehow life is choosing a very specific shape for the molecules to make up stuff that's.

[Robert Krulwich]

Correct when you say life has chosen let's take that sentence apart life meaning everything that is that we know of on earth every living thing hence my.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Phrase life as we know it everything.

[Robert Krulwich]

That'S what that means the littlest things.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

To the blue whale that would be.

[Robert Krulwich]

As we know it the littlest tiniest thing to the tree the biggest tree the giant sequoia that would be as.

[Marcelo Gleiser]

We know it every protein in you dogs trees you name it is filled.

[Jad Abumrad]

With left handed building blocks yes it's.

[Marcelo Gleiser]

Called the chirality of life the chirality.

[Robert Krulwich]

Of life life my friend is left.

[Jad Abumrad]

Handed hmm that's pretty that's well it feels cool but let me just like so what i mean i don't want to put it bluntly but i mean.

[Robert Krulwich]

Like well other than the sheer surprise of having everything in life being shaped.

[Jad Abumrad]

No it is surprising but i mean what does it have to to do with my life anyone's life or the.

[Robert Krulwich]

Mirror thing this brings us back to the mirror mystery in alice and the.

[Jad Abumrad]

Mirror milk no no because you just told me that the milk is left handed because milk is an organic from a living cow yeah remember you said that life is lefty so there can't be any right handed milks so the mirror milk doesn't exist well that's because.

[Robert Krulwich]

I forgot to tell you that scientists all the time manufacture mirror molecules they do yeah yeah they go into their laboratories and they synthetically make mirror molecules of all kinds of things can they do milk i don't know about milk in particular but i do know that when i talked to an oxford professor marcus de satoy he told me if.

[Jad Abumrad]

You take the atoms which built caraway.

[Robert Krulwich]

Seeds which is the spice they use in rye bread take a mirror image of them suddenly you get something which.

[Jad Abumrad]

Tastes of spearmint huh it's what's put.

[Robert Krulwich]

On wriggly spearmint gum and in fact.

[Jad Abumrad]

There are some very dramatic examples of this not just where the taste changes but listeners might remember a story about the thalidomide drug.

[Robert Krulwich]

In nineteen fifty eight.

[Jad Abumrad]

A west german pharmaceutical firm began marketing.

[Robert Krulwich]

A new drug this is a new spot from the early nineteen sixties a.

[Jad Abumrad]

Sedative so effective and apparently harmless it quickly became one of the most widely.

[Robert Krulwich]

Used and prescribed drugs in west europe thalidomide before long pregnant women started taking it as a way to calm morning sickness and most of us well we know what happened next every woman president kennedy in a press conference in this country i think must be aware that it's most important that they do not.

[Jad Abumrad]

Take this drug that they turn it.

[Robert Krulwich]

In every citizen of course should be aware of the hazards all in all more than twelve thousand children were born with arms and legs that were shortened or deformed or completely missing the strange thing according to marcus is that we now know that when they first made thalidomide it was all one handed let's say it was left handed yeah and.

[Jad Abumrad]

It did actually cure morning sickness and.

[Robert Krulwich]

Was completely harmless but somewhere along the way thalidomide flipped we don't know whether this was in the drug making process or after but we did do know.

[Jad Abumrad]

Its mirror image was incredibly poisonous.

[Robert Krulwich]

So you know what this means jad what that in a show about symmetry what we've just discovered is that life itself is actually deeply asymmetric yeah unlike love where we started the program back with aristophanes when it comes to life you don't want to meet the other half.

[Jad Abumrad]

Stay away mirror stay away anyhow that's.

[Robert Krulwich]

Well enough about mirrors no no no.

[Jad Abumrad]

No no no i think we can take this another step further there is.

[Robert Krulwich]

No further step further no there is.

[Jad Abumrad]

I mean because something about this chemistry reflections thing resonates for me with the actual experience of standing in front of a mirror how well you know you look at that guy and you're like dang we talked about this on stage actually in dc at the shakespeare theater remember when i asked you that personal.

[Robert Krulwich]

Question oh yeah do we do we.

[Jad Abumrad]

Want to do this oh yes we do psychologically let me ask psychologically do you enjoy looking in the mirror.

[Robert Krulwich]

Is that a question you want to ask me in front of that's a private.

[Jad Abumrad]

Question i feel surely you know though that the difference between your true self and your mirror self is not trivial.

[Robert Krulwich]

My true what does he mean by my true self i don't know well.

[Jad Abumrad]

I'M going to tell you the story now about a guy named john walter.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh the little mustache from baltimore from.

[Jad Abumrad]

The movies no that's john waters walter he's a computer programmer in new rochelle paid him a visit recently because back when he was in college he sort of kind of switched places with the guy in the mirror it was many.

[John Walter]

Years ago how old were you i was nineteen nineteen so it was a.

[Jad Abumrad]

Long time ago we're talking late seventies.

[John Walter]

Here but i was had already had some issues with with the mirror so.

[Jad Abumrad]

Let me set this up for you the thing to know about john is that as a kid he had a tough time like so many of us he would get bullied beaten up on the playground it was no better when he got into his teens and as a nineteen year old his social life consisted of a series of stinging humiliations like the following i remember at the.

[John Walter]

Time there was a lot of kids hanging out you know there was a crew of people like you know twenty thirty forty kids would gather together at the aqueduct beautiful woods of the aqueduct and go drink beers and smoke cigarettes you know i walked into the group like yo what's up and it's like yeah whatever roundly rejected and that according.

[Jad Abumrad]

To john was normal that's that was.

[John Walter]

Normal for me very normal like people would say what's that guy doing here.

[Robert Krulwich]

Yeah maybe he was like wearing the wrong plaid pants or had like you know mismatched socks they might be some.

[Jad Abumrad]

Whatever don't you emphasize this guy nobody.

[Robert Krulwich]

Wants to be nineteen and be the yucky person of course i would empathize.

[Jad Abumrad]

However the story that will follow centers on a revelation that john had that began just as he was about to start his summer job for con ed.

[John Walter]

I was working for them as a painter and i had some pictures taken for con ed these are id photos that you have an id camera that had four lenses so when they took the negative it was four of me.

[Jad Abumrad]

Boom boom boom boom like little squares.

[John Walter]

Little squares and i remember looking over and and going why do i look so weird why do i look so.

[Jad Abumrad]

Weird why do i look so weird.

[John Walter]

Why do i look so weird because.

[Jad Abumrad]

Here'S the thing i mean the john in the pictures was not the john that he knew himself to be that john was kind of timid nerdy not.

[John Walter]

Cool why do i look so weird in pictures i look fine what do.

[Jad Abumrad]

You mean you look fine how do you know you look fine well i.

[John Walter]

Thought i looked fine in the mirror.

[Jad Abumrad]

Of course in the mirror things on the left go to the right things on the right go to the left wait a second that's when it hit him what hit him it's the hair part it's the what it's the hair part it's the what it's the hair part i could do this all night it's the hair part what does that.

[Robert Krulwich]

Mean it's the hair i hear it i hear it what does that mean.

[John Walter]

It'S the hair part well in the picture i saw a guy with a right hair part in the mirror i see a guy with a left hair.

[Jad Abumrad]

Part essentially john wait wait which side.

[Robert Krulwich]

Of my hair parted on your left.

[Jad Abumrad]

Your left my left now john thought he was a lefty too he would stand in front of the mirror and the mirror would tell him he was parting it to the left but in fact he was parting it to the right in real life now the lefty guy in the mirror he liked that.

[John Walter]

Guy i was fine with that guy he was cool there was nothing wrong.

[Jad Abumrad]

With him but he realized he was the only person seeing that guy so.

[John Walter]

He thought oh let me put my hair on the other side let me.

[Jad Abumrad]

Essentially swap real me for mirror me.

[John Walter]

It was one of these things where yeah that looks really weird in the mirror but i bet you it looks good in real life let me go.

[Jad Abumrad]

Find out so what did you do.

[John Walter]

Well that night.

[Jad Abumrad]

He goes back to the aqueduct same posse is there as.

[John Walter]

Before i mean that same group interesting enough had beat the crap out of me like three years earlier when i was in like ninth grade but there.

[Jad Abumrad]

He was now with his hair parted on the left he says this time things were different somebody offered him a.

[John Walter]

Beer it was like wow but the thing that i knew made it better was when i left i got goodbyes.

[Robert Krulwich]

Come on come on come on i look god for the first time this is ridiculous that you would tell me a story about a man who is having social failures universally shifts his hair over and is remade this is like.

[Jad Abumrad]

Look it's his experience it's very vidal sassoon wouldn't easy to dismiss but i'm winning you over are you ready i'm going to win you over you ready for this i don't think you're ready.

[Robert Krulwich]

Are you ready you are asking me.

[Jad Abumrad]

To be broad because i'm going to show you a picture right now all right okay have a look at okay.

[Robert Krulwich]

At who is that it's abraham lincoln.

[Jad Abumrad]

Our sixteenth president abraham lincoln just stare at him robert take him in take him deep into your consciousness by the way this next part you can see the pictures at radiolab dot org it's worth checking out his eyes his nose his mouth pay attention particularly to the hair part okay now look what happens when you flip abraham.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh that.

[Jad Abumrad]

No.

[Robert Krulwich]

No no no no no is this the same picture it's the same picture go back to the other picture go.

[Jad Abumrad]

All right there's abe now do the.

[Robert Krulwich]

Other one oh you see that's so.

[Jad Abumrad]

Weird now here's the thing this is what abraham lincoln would have seen when he looked in the mirror he would have seen this guy not the other guy the one we all see huh so there's something going on here would you not at least acknowledge me that.

[Robert Krulwich]

I find this vaguely plausible yes okay.

[Jad Abumrad]

With your permission mister sinek i will now rejoin john who's about to what.

[Robert Krulwich]

Get married and have three babies because.

[Jad Abumrad]

His hair is dead he says after after he switched his part it just.

[John Walter]

Kept getting better and better and better all summer long he was suddenly invited.

[Jad Abumrad]

To all of these parties by the very same people that used to beat him up and for the first time.

[John Walter]

He says i was clearly one of.

[Jad Abumrad]

Them now whether or not you buy that this is in fact because of his hair that's on you okay but let's fast forward just a little bit.

[John Walter]

The next summer this would have been.

[Jad Abumrad]

Nineteen seventy nine yeah nineteen seventy nine john sitting in front of the tv and on comes good evening this is.

[Robert Krulwich]

A special night for me the president.

[Jad Abumrad]

Jimmy carter making a speech about how our nation is in a deep funk.

[Robert Krulwich]

Why have we not been able to get together as a nation to resolve.

[John Walter]

Our serious energy problems the malaise speech you know that infamous countries in malaise.

[Robert Krulwich]

It'S clear that the true problems of our nation are much deeper deeper than gasoline lines or energy shortages deeper even than inflation or recession now as you.

[Jad Abumrad]

Know i'm sure you remember a lot of people would criticize jimmy carter for making the speech because he's up there admitting flaws and they were like come on mister president don't be weak man up john meanwhile is sitting in front of the tv and he's thinking dude.

[John Walter]

You gotta change your hair part and so i wrote him you wrote to.

[Jad Abumrad]

Him i wrote to him wait wait so you said wait what is why.

[John Walter]

Why i think i just said i think you should change your hair part on the left i did myself and found it to be much more powerful much more successful do you have that letter i so wish i did i don't have it and then about six weeks later boom he switched he switched.

[Jad Abumrad]

No he didn't john wrote him a letter and president carter switched no it might not have been john's letter that.

[Robert Krulwich]

Did you have no evidence think about.

[Jad Abumrad]

How much what involves in a president switching his hair there are four focus groups there are prayer meetings there's so much thought that goes into the did.

[Robert Krulwich]

Anyone actually record this yes they did.

[Jad Abumrad]

I will now read you a journalistic account from no periodical there you go washington book right there you see bam right there oh man newsweek may seventh nineteen seventy nine at first photographers thought they had their negatives reversed but no jimmy carter has changed the part in his hair from the right side to the left the washington press corps demanded an explanation.

[Robert Krulwich]

But remember that you know as opposed to john who changes his hair and then all the girls give him beers this guy he was running against a luxuriantly haired man reagan and it didn't matter so he just you.

[Jad Abumrad]

Know he got crushed all right you know what forget smart forget the executive branch yes stay with me now i was with john and he was showing me pictures of congressmen and of celebrities and i noticed something peeking out at the bottom of the pile i see peeking out underneath the stack of photos as a superman yeah he showed me a picture of superman looking mighty in his superman suit notice how he parts.

[Robert Krulwich]

His hair yeah it's a little bit on there on that side yeah now.

[John Walter]

This is clark kentucky with it on.

[Jad Abumrad]

The right and as we know from the movies clark kent is fumbling he was sort of a dork i mean.

[Robert Krulwich]

I was at first really nervous about.

[Jad Abumrad]

Tonight so somebody who made that movie maybe explicitly intuitively understood something about the difference that maybe you know the right part said one thing about clark kent the left part said something about superman in fact there is a scene in the movie where clark kent's running down an alley he's about to turn into superman he pulls his shirt open to reveal the s and literally mid stride his hair goes and turns from the light to the left so you're saying.

[Robert Krulwich]

That sophisticated popular cultural motion picture manufacturers and at least two presidents have been persuaded to this position at this very.

[Jad Abumrad]

Moment on a saturday night that is what i'm saying all right well for.

[Robert Krulwich]

Argument'S sake then what would you say i hate to get into this any deeper explains the difference between putting the power of your hair on the left hand or the right hand well if.

[Jad Abumrad]

You ask john what he'll say is that the left hair part emphasizes strength and logic because it draws your attention to the logical more masculine side of your face your brain because it's a left brain kind of thing but i don't really know so i decided i would actually take this seriously and figure out how to feel about it so i called up this guy good ide it's mike his name is mike nichols.

[Robert Krulwich]

Oh from the graduate very good a.

[Jad Abumrad]

Psychology professor in australia an expert in symmetry that mike nichols yes that guy i ran him through john's theory have you ever seen the superman movies some.

[Robert Krulwich]

Of the earlier ones i think you.

[Jad Abumrad]

Know how clark kent his hair is parted to the right but then every.

[Latif Nasser]

Time he tries to do superman his.

[Jad Abumrad]

Hair so random through the whole thing you know clark's on the right maybe he's weak superman's on the left maybe he's stronger more assertive right is there.

[Latif Nasser]

Anything to that anything at all yeah.

[Robert Krulwich]

I mean possibly you know that's oh.

[Jad Abumrad]

I have to but he did say this which is interesting in focusing on the left john may be picking up on a particular bias that we human beings have to our left side for instance here's an experiment that he and.

[Robert Krulwich]

His colleagues did take a snapshot of someone's face at baseline when they're showing.

[Jad Abumrad]

No emotion blank face and then get.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Them to try to look as happy.

[Robert Krulwich]

Or sad as they could take happy.

[Jad Abumrad]

Guy and overlay him onto no expression.

[Robert Krulwich]

Guy and almost like a contour map you could actually look at the amount of change amount of muscle movement that.

[Jad Abumrad]

Had occurred what you will see if you measure the muscle movement in millimeters on each side of the face you'll see that the smile curves a few extra millimeters on the left side of the face he says this is nearly always the case always on the left.

[Robert Krulwich]

Side what it's really telling you is that when somebody smiles or when they frown or whatever they're doing it slightly more strongly on the left side of.

[Jad Abumrad]

The now if this is the case that our left side is sort of saying more emotionally than our right side then if you think about the mirror it's kind of a discombobulating thing you know because it's taking your left which is sort of broadcasting emotion flipping it to your right you're seeing yourself you're all mixed up you don't know which part of you is where you're so.

[Robert Krulwich]

You'Re saying like because i tend to address you with my attention on your left side unbeknownst to me and your left side is actually flipped over to your right side i don't it's a.

[Jad Abumrad]

Where are we sort of exactly but john has developed a solution to this problem.

[John Walter]

Let me take this one apart.

[Jad Abumrad]

He now makes and sells his own very special mirrors right out of his home and is this where you make.

[John Walter]

The mirrors everything that goes into the mirror is made here you see here this is the machine that cuts the.

[Jad Abumrad]

Mirror he buys these giant sheets of reflective glass and he slices them into little pieces.

[John Walter]

Clunk and then i snap it.

[Jad Abumrad]

Now for each mirror this is the key he uses two pieces of mirror glass instead of one what he'll do is he'll take these two pieces and he'll place them together at right angles two mirrors at right angles like exactly at right angles it has to.

[John Walter]

Be ninety point zero and let's just push this up a little bit that's.

[Jad Abumrad]

Still not enough because when he finally gets it right which can take hours what he'll have is this v shaped mirror he'll stand it up put it in a box and then voila what you have is a mirror that shows you a mirror image of a mirror image of you takes the normally flipped guy that you'd see in the mirror re flips him so that what you are seeing is essentially well for the first time in a mirror you see yourself as other people see you okay.

[John Walter]

So there you go so what is.

[Jad Abumrad]

This that you have in your hand.

[John Walter]

This is a true mirror this is the twelve inch model and so when you like this is actually what i look like yeah touch your right eye see it's actually on the right side.

[Jad Abumrad]

Oh my god isn't that crazy that's crazy it is surprisingly weird to see yourself this way i feel like my nose is going the wrong way yeah i never knew my nose went that way and this little flare in my eyebrows is on the wrong side or the right side as it were john claims that many a fair number i probably would put you in this bunch my co host when they stand in front of this mirror they freak out.

[John Walter]

Many of them because their perception is shaken up a little bit in fact.

[Jad Abumrad]

He sometimes takes his mirrors to these festivals and we'll sort of set them up and have people look at themselves and then fill out comment cards afterwards.

[John Walter]

You know i mean if you look at some of the comments you know it's like.

[Jad Abumrad]

I am a monster in.

[John Walter]

Your mirror.

[Jad Abumrad]

What did he say i am a i am a monster in your mirror to break we go if you want any more information on anything you heard go to our website radiolab.

[Robert Krulwich]

Dot org or if you want to see those incredible pictures of abe lincoln.

[Jad Abumrad]

That'S where they are that's right and subscribe to our podcast there as well.

[Latif Nasser]

Radiolab is supported by factor as summertime is gearing up schedules may look a little more touch and go whether it's an upcoming family vacation or kids summer camp that has you leaving work earlier than usual so meals might take a hit and factor is here to help thanks to the menus crafted by chefs with options like calorie smart protein plus and keto factor offers fresh never frozen meals plus they're dietitian approved and ready to eat in just two minutes you can feel nourished and ready to roll no matter what life throws at you perfect for any active busy lifestyle with forty options across eight dietary preferences on the menu each week it's easy to pick meals that are tailored to your eating goals factor can help you feel your best all day long with wholesome smoothies breakfast grab and go snacks and more add ons eat smart with factor get started at factor meals dot com radiolab and use code radiolab to get fifty percent off your first box plus free shipping that's code radiolab at factormeals dot com radiolab to get fifty percent off plus free shipping on your first box radiolab is supported by mint mobile you know what doesn't belong in your epic summer plans getting burned by your old wireless bill while you're planning beach trips barbecues and three day weekends your wireless bill should be the last thing holding you back with mint you can get the coverage and speed you're used to for less money and for a limited time mint mobile is offering three months of unlimited premium wireless service at an affordable affordable rate use your own phone with any mint mobile plan and bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts this year skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank ditch the overpriced wireless plans and get this new customer offer and your three month unlimited wireless plan at mintmobile dot com radiolab that's mintmobile dot com radiolab upfront payment of dollar forty five required equivalent to dollar fifteen a month limited time new customer offer for first three months only speeds may slow above thirty five gigabytes on unlimited plan taxes and fees extra see mint mobile for details this summer ditch land with shortwave's sea camp because when's the last time you had an ocean getaway every monday we bring you insights from a different ocean zone starting with the sunlit surface until we hit the deep sea floor where there's marine snow weird critters carbon sinks and so much more but first you gotta take the plunge follow npr's short wave wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jad Abumrad]

Okay hey i'm jed abumrad i'm robert krulwich this is radiolab and today we're still desperately.

[Robert Krulwich]

Looking seeking symmetry as you say not well we have looked at love failed looked at brains failed looked at mirrors failed the chemistry of life so we thought well for the last stop on this trip if we were to go anywhere to find or look for deep unity a deep oneness and symmetry maybe.

[Jad Abumrad]

The beginning yeah of everything moment zero.

[Robert Krulwich]

So i found ourselves a physicist again it's neil degrasse tyson i began with a very very basic question if you look at me and i look at you and you seem to be made of stuff and i seem to be made of stuff and here we are and here are tables and chairs is it a surprise to you in some deep way that we are all here.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Made of stuff yes it's not so much surprise understates it it's shocking really.

[Robert Krulwich]

It'S shocking huh what is shocking that.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

There'S any matter in the universe at.

[Jad Abumrad]

All meaning that this conversation shouldn't be.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Happening no it's way deeper than your.

[Robert Krulwich]

Mouth shouldn't even be thank you it's.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Deeper than just whether or not we'd be having this conversation it's whether or not any of this would exist earth the galaxy and the like.

[Marcelo Gleiser]

Okay so if you go back thirteen point seven.

[Robert Krulwich]

Billion years ago that's marcelo gleiser again the physicist and he says if you roll back the history of the universe.

[Marcelo Gleiser]

No more stars no molecules no atoms if you play the movie backwards now.

[Robert Krulwich]

All the way to the beginning just after you.

[Marcelo Gleiser]

The big bang you have what we call a primeval soup this.

[Robert Krulwich]

Soup was actually made of light universe.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Of light very high energy and out.

[Marcelo Gleiser]

Of this energy this heat these interactions.

[Robert Krulwich]

You suddenly get.

[Jad Abumrad]

What the hell is.

[Robert Krulwich]

That these are belches jad belches belches.

[Jad Abumrad]

Of matter the light is doing this.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yes this is what a equals mc squared is all about because energy is just a form of matter and vice.

[Jad Abumrad]

Versa i feel like i should know what you're talking about but i don't.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay let's start a little simpler there's light all around us we're in a studio it's visible light so this light has no mass has energy e but no m crank up the energy of the light go to ultraviolet x rays there's a point in x rays where you have a high enough x ray photon it will spontaneously turn into a particle electrons in fact oh so you're.

[Jad Abumrad]

Saying if you crank up the e the energy of the light high enough it'll suddenly just turn into mass that's.

[Robert Krulwich]

Correct so jeff just picture the soup really intensely hot and it's belching out.

[Marcelo Gleiser]

Matter you know electrons zooming around photons.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Quarks neutrons neutrinos continuously churning churning churning.

[Robert Krulwich]

Over time all that matter clumps together in more and more complex forms until you finally get us sounds very simple.

[Jad Abumrad]

Doesn'T it chad yes but there's a but coming i can smell it but.

[Marcelo Gleiser]

And here's the big butt back in nineteen twenty eight nineteen twenty nine there was this physicist really young guy paul.

[Robert Krulwich]

Dirac he's doing some math and he's thinking about this whole business of turning light into matter okay now he's puzzled by something what there is a law in physics called the law of conservation of charge which simply means this each.

[Jad Abumrad]

Unit rolls off your tongue quite nicely.

[Robert Krulwich]

Doesn'T it it does so here's what.

[Marcelo Gleiser]

It means whenever you create something if in the beginning you have zero electric charge at the end you have to have zero electric charge too that is you cannot create electric charge you have to keep the balance if you make.

[Robert Krulwich]

Something in the universe that has a positive charge or a neg make an electron just make one right now yeah gone that electron has a you remember this from eighth grade a negative negative one baby you make two electrons it's.

[Jad Abumrad]

Now make three electrons negative three now.

[Robert Krulwich]

If the universe is to stay in balance you need to have something that has a positive charge you've got three minuses on one side you have nothing.

[Jad Abumrad]

On the other side wait a second if this is true how would you even make an electron the sheer fact of creating an electron puts it out of balance the fundamental story here is.

[Robert Krulwich]

Wrong well no paul dirac thought well how about this what if every time you created an electron you created an anti electron what every particle could have an equal but opposite antiparticle that is.

[Marcelo Gleiser]

A particle that looks very much the same but essentially its electric charge is.

[Jad Abumrad]

Reversed it would look the same like.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Really look yes you'd have to measure their properties to know that they were.

[Robert Krulwich]

Different is it a mirror image or.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You might think of it as a mirror image there's a thing called quantum spin and it would be spinning the opposite way but charge is the most.

[Marcelo Gleiser]

Obvious difference for example the antimatter cousin.

[Robert Krulwich]

Of the electron because the electron is a negative charge this little guy should have a positive charge exactly but in.

[Jad Abumrad]

Every other way it would be the.

[Robert Krulwich]

Same right and but no one ever seen one he just thought that there probably would be one yes and why.

[Jad Abumrad]

Did he think this math math it.

[Marcelo Gleiser]

Was a solution to his equations and that's the beauty of theoretical physics by solving equations you can sometimes find out about the world and then yes a few years later bada bing they found.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

The positron the antimatter version of the electron oh yeah no it's deep it's.

[Robert Krulwich]

Deep how did they do that did.

[Marcelo Gleiser]

They actually see it well particles you know they're very tiny right you can't really see them so what you do is you create little systems in the laboratory you get like a vapor and.

[Jad Abumrad]

You put the vapor in a tank he says and when the electron or the anti electron shoots through the vapor.

[Marcelo Gleiser]

The particle destabilizes the vapor and makes little bubbles okay you can see these little bubbles appearing out of nothing wow seriously it's really an amazing thing so.

[Jad Abumrad]

You can't see the particle itself but you can see its shadow it's road.

[Marcelo Gleiser]

Trip it's road trip yeah so then.

[Jad Abumrad]

He says okay imagine you get this little piece of light and you heat it up really hot so that it spawns well as we learned not one.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Particle but two matter antimatter pair put.

[Jad Abumrad]

Them in the vapor tank and you.

[Marcelo Gleiser]

Put a magnet in there you can tell if it's going to the left or to the right if it's a positive or a negative charge very clever.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It is cool you see two particle tracks that each curl opposite directions and if they have the same rate of curl that means they have the same mass yes.

[Jad Abumrad]

So if we go back to our picture of the early universe of the soup which and you named all of those particles does that mean that for every particle that you name there is its opposite floating around there.

[Marcelo Gleiser]

As well exactly to have electrons anti.

[Robert Krulwich]

Electrons neutron antineutron proton antiproton this is.

[Marcelo Gleiser]

All very beautiful and you'd say great i have a very democratic universe you know as many particles and antiparticles and everybody's happy only problem is the when an electron and a positron meet they.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Will find each other and uh oh and they will annihilate you wouldn't mean.

[Robert Krulwich]

They'Ll find because they'll find their original.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Other half no no they wouldn't need.

[Robert Krulwich]

To no just find another kindling that's correct i see that's correct so jed now imagine that we are in the very early universe i am a teeny bit of matter and you am a.

[Jad Abumrad]

I'M an anti crowd and so the.

[Robert Krulwich]

Procure which is sitting here and i see you across the haze now i'm positive charge you're negative charge opposite charges you see it doesn't work out too well for us but you know wait wait this is actually a rather profound puzzle because if paul dirac was right and half the universe is matter the other half the universe is antimatter and we all bump into each other as.

[Jad Abumrad]

We just did well eventually i guess we would just not we would just become i don't what well i don't.

[Marcelo Gleiser]

Know we would not be here damn.

[Robert Krulwich]

You just blink out and there'd be nothing exactly.

[Jad Abumrad]

Really nothing so it's a.

[Marcelo Gleiser]

Field of mostly not mostly just radiation radiation radiation radiation radiation radiation radiation radiation.

[Jad Abumrad]

Radiation radiation radiation radiation radiation radiation radiation.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Radiation it's shocking it's shocking it's shocking it's shocking.

[Robert Krulwich]

Well there's something wrong with this theory because we're talking to each other and we're seeing that matter so something's wrong with this notion yes and.

[Marcelo Gleiser]

What'S wrong is an imperfection in the laws of physics that we know of now and that is responsible for this.

[Robert Krulwich]

Bias which means what that there was a little more of matter what we call matter than antimatter yes there was.

[Marcelo Gleiser]

To be precise to every billion particles of antimatter we had a billion and one particles of matter oh my god really yes wow that tiny excess of one in a billion is enough to create everything that exists now one lonely.

[Jad Abumrad]

Little guy.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

We would call that an asymmetry.

[Robert Krulwich]

So everything we see in the universe all the stars all the suns and the moons and the grass and the mountains and us all the we're the left we're the extra stuff yes.

[Marcelo Gleiser]

We are the result of this asymmetry.

[Robert Krulwich]

Has anybody dealt with the real question that's provoked here it's like why was there more of one stuff kind of stuff than the other kind of stuff.

[Marcelo Gleiser]

So there you go that is one beautiful question but we don't have any final answer yet you don't know because you see you don't know we don't know we do not know which is okay not knowing is a wonderful thing in science otherwise you could just retire.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Can i tell you my favorite lawyer joke told to me by a lawyer yeah i have to like spread this because it's the best one ninety eight percent of lawyers give the other two percent a bad name.

[Jad Abumrad]

Well that's the.

[Robert Krulwich]

Go music the go music meaning go.

[Jad Abumrad]

Away meaning us or here's a different place to go to our website radiolab dot org where you can read more about anything you heard in this hour you can see those amazing lincoln picks and other things we've got there on symmetry and of course you can subscribe to our podcast which means you get.

[Robert Krulwich]

To hear the show you know whenever.

[Jad Abumrad]

You like i'm jad abumrad i'm robert krulwich thanks for listening.

[Eisha]

Hi i'm eisha and i'm from plano texas and here are the staff credits radiolab was created by chad abumrad and is edited by dorn wheeler lulu miller and latif nasser are our co hosts dylan keefe is our director of sound design our staff includes simon adler jeremy bloom becca bressler w harry fortuna david gebel rebecca lacks maria paz gutierrez sindhu nyanasambandam matt kilty annie mckeown alex neeson sara kari sarah sandak anissa vitya arianne wack path walters molly webster jessica young with help from rebecca rand our fact checkers are diane kelly emily krieger anna pujol mazzini and natalie middleton hi this is michelle calling from richardson texas leadership support for radiolab science programming is provided by the simons foundation and the john templeton foundation foundational support for radiolab was provided by the alfred p sloan foundation.

[Latif Nasser]

Since wnyc's first broadcast in nineteen twenty four we've been dedicated to creating the kind of content we know the world needs since then new york public radio's rigorous journalism has gone on to win a peabody award and a dupont columbia award among others in addition to this award winning reporting your sponsorship also supports inspiring storytelling and extraordinary music that is free and accessible to all to get in touch and find out more visit sponsorship dot wnyc dot org.