Killer Empathy

Summary

Radiolab Episode Summary: "Draft for Publish"
Release Date: April 4, 2025
Hosts: Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser
Produced by: WNYC Studios

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Introduction: Listener Spotlight

In this episode of Radiolab, hosts Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser embark on a journey that intertwines listener stories with in-depth investigative journalism. The episode, titled "Draft for Publish," delves into the profound impact of immersive storytelling and the thin line between engagement and distraction.

---

Paul Tucker’s Story: The Immersive Power of Radiolab

Initial Incident and Email
Radiolab begins by narrating the experience of Paul Tucker, a 54-year-old carpenter, whose deep engagement with the show led to unintended physical injuries. Paul recounts his initial email to Radiolab, humorously titled "The dangers of listening to Radiolab," expressing concern over the show's ability to captivate listeners to the point of distraction.

Paul Tucker [00:57]: "The dangers of listening to Radiolab while trying to do other things...I have my own woodworking shop. Then came Radiolab...I took a big saw kerf out of my left thumb with the table saw."
(00:57)

Hosts’ Response and Reflection
Lulu Miller reflects on receiving Paul’s email 15 years ago, highlighting it as a "North Star" that underscored the goal of creating gripping content. The hosts express both concern for Paul’s well-being and gratitude for his feedback.

Lulu Miller [03:38]: "This email truly sort of became a North Star for me. I do not wish any digital injuries upon any more of our listeners."
(03:38)

Continued Impact and Apology
Fifteen years later, Lulu reaches out to Paul to thank him and apologize for his injuries caused by the show’s immersive nature. Paul shares that he ceased listening to Radiolab while operating machinery but has continued to listen during safer activities, recently finding the episode on Henrietta Lacks particularly moving.

Paul Tucker [05:16]: "I truly did. I could listen to music, but I couldn't listen to Radiolab."
(05:16)
Paul Tucker [05:34]: "I was especially moved by the recent one on Henrietta Lacks. Oh, my. That was. That got my tear ducts working a little bit."
(05:34)

Understanding Radiolab’s Influence
Paul describes Radiolab as storytelling that "grabs a hold of you and doesn't let go," emphasizing the show's ability to make listeners feel deeply connected to the narratives presented.

Paul Tucker [05:51]: "I think it's storytelling that grabs a hold of you and doesn't let go."
(05:51)
Paul Tucker [05:59]: "Sometimes chops off your fingers."
(05:59)

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Main Story: Jeff Lockwood and the Gorilla Critids

Introduction to Jeff Lockwood’s Research
The episode transitions to a 2012 story featuring Jeff Lockwood, an entomologist from the University of Wyoming, who studies a unique species of crickets known as "gorilla critids." These crickets are notably more aggressive and formidable than typical crickets, earning them their moniker.

Jeff Lockwood [09:07]: "He’s a bug guy. And mostly he studies crickets and grasshoppers."
(09:07)
Jeff Lockwood [09:19]: "The way to think of a gorilla critid is like a cricket on steroids."
(09:19)

Behavioral Observations
Jeff describes the aggressive nature of gorilla critids, noting their strong jaws and vicious temperaments. He explains the challenges of handling these insects, often leading to injuries, and devises strategies to manage them safely.

Jeff Lockwood [10:04]: "They all had to be caged separately. If you put them together, they would fight to the death."
(10:04)
Jeff Lockwood [10:17]: "They were completely alien to him."
(10:17)

Understanding Empathy and Objectivity
As Jeff immerses himself in studying these crickets, he begins to empathize with them, noticing behaviors that indicate a sense of self and territoriality. This deepening understanding challenges his training in objectivity, a principle emphasized by his mentor, Dr. LaFarge.

Jeff Lockwood [11:10]: "They can differentiate their nests... they had a capacity to recognize self."
(11:10)
Jeff Lockwood [12:17]: "Maybe that rage is their only strategy."
(12:17)

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Tragic Turn: The Death of Dr. LaFarge

Meeting with Tamara Carboni
The narrative shifts to Tamara Carboni, who worked alongside Jeff Lockwood and Dr. LaFarge at the Louisiana State Museum. Tamara recounts the fateful night of July 25, 1989, when Dr. LaFarge was tragically killed during a seemingly senseless act of violence.

Tamara Carboni [20:28]: "We were walking home...he said, close your eyes. And in the process of closing my eyes, I saw the gun."
(21:52)
Tamara Carboni [21:58]: "I saw Jeff running toward my house, and I just ran after him...I watched him die."
(21:58)

Event Reconstruction and Aftermath
Jeff recalls receiving the news of Dr. LaFarge’s death, grappling with feelings of sadness, anguish, and confusion. The lack of closure, as the killer was never found, leaves a lasting impact on Jeff.

Jeff Lockwood [23:01]: "The news came by a phone call. It wasn't Dr. Lafarge. He wasn't really killed. It seemed particularly hard to grasp."
(23:01)
Tamara Carboni [23:39]: "You know, one minute I'm with this vital person, and the next minute he's dead."
(23:39)

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Jeff’s Essay: Reconciling Objectivity and Empathy

Essay Reflection
Struggling to understand the senseless violence, Jeff writes an essay attempting to apply Dr. LaFarge’s teachings on objectivity. He analyzes the incident dispassionately, considering socio-economic factors that might have driven the assailant to commit the act.

Jeff Lockwood [24:31]: "The year after I left Louisiana...as a freshly minted PhD."
(24:31)
Jeff Lockwood [24:40]: "The violence is the baseline strategy for most encounters within species."
(24:40)

Discrepancies and Personal Struggles
Tamara reviews Jeff’s essay, pointing out inaccuracies in his recollection of the events. She emphasizes the emotional disconnect between Jeff’s analytical approach and the human trauma of the event.

Tamara Carboni [25:29]: "I don’t think there was enough space for him to step between us."
(25:29)
Tamara Carboni [26:10]: "I can’t imagine doing violence to another human being or killing them."
(26:10)

Final Realizations
Jeff acknowledges the limitations of his essay, admitting that it does not fully capture the complexity of the event or his emotional response. He concedes that understanding such human violence transcends the analytical frameworks taught by Dr. LaFarge.

Jeff Lockwood [27:22]: "It just isn't sufficient."
(27:22)
Jeff Lockwood [27:24]: "There is a way of understanding this event. I just haven't gotten there yet."
(27:24)

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Conclusion: Reflections on Empathy and Objectivity

"Draft for Publish" beautifully weaves together personal narratives and scientific inquiry to explore themes of empathy, objectivity, and the human condition. Through Paul Tucker’s experiences and Jeff Lockwood’s poignant reflections on tragedy and research, the episode invites listeners to contemplate the depths of human emotion and the complexities of understanding violence, both in humans and in the natural world.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Paul Tucker [00:57]: "The dangers of listening to Radiolab while trying to do other things... I took a big saw kerf out of my left thumb with the table saw."
• Lulu Miller [03:38]: "I do not wish any digital injuries upon any more of our listeners."
• Jeff Lockwood [09:19]: "The way to think of a gorilla critid is like a cricket on steroids."
• Jeff Lockwood [10:04]: "They all had to be caged separately. If you put them together, they would fight to the death."
• Paul Tucker [05:51]: "I think it's storytelling that grabs a hold of you and doesn't let go."
• Tamara Carboni [21:52]: "We were walking home... I saw Jeff running toward my house, and I just ran after him... I watched him die."
• Jeff Lockwood [24:31]: "The violence is the baseline strategy for most encounters within species."
• Jeff Lockwood [27:24]: "There is a way of understanding this event. I just haven't gotten there yet."

---

Additional Information

Production Credits:
Radiolab was created by Jad Abumrad and is edited by Soren Wheeler. Hosts include Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser, with sound design by Dylan Keefe. The team comprises dedicated staff members and fact trackers ensuring the integrity and depth of each episode.

Support and Sponsorships:
The episode acknowledges support from the John Templeton Foundation, Capital One Banking, Progressive Insurance, BetterHelp, and other sponsors, who facilitate the continued production of insightful and engaging content.

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This detailed summary captures the essence of the "Draft for Publish" episode, highlighting key narratives, discussions, and emotional arcs presented by the hosts and featured individuals. Whether revisiting listener experiences or delving into complex scientific and personal stories, Radiolab continues to challenge and inspire its audience.

Transcript

[Latif Nasser]

Radiolab is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. Radiolab is supported by the John Templeton foundation, funding interdisciplinary research and catalyzing conversations designed to inspire awe and wonder, dive deeply into the wonders of the [e-mail].

[Paul Tucker]

Yeah, I wish I could have been the guy who saved his wife's life. I'm just the guy who nearly cut his fingers off.

[Latif Nasser]

Hey, Latif here, you heard that one. So this month we're turning the spotlight to you all. We're talking to listeners and members of.

[Paul Tucker]

The lab and like I said, I do have guys that I've worked with who have cut off fingers.

[Latif Nasser]

We interviewed a guy who just heroically saved his wife's life after listening to our episode literally called how to Save a Life.

[Lulu Miller]

And this week, so amazing to talk to you. I'm not kidding. You have been on my mind for, yeah, 15 years now.

[Latif Nasser]

Lulu talked to Paul Tucker.

[Paul Tucker]

I'm an old dog with a new.

[Latif Nasser]

Trick who wrote to us actually about 15 years ago maybe.

[Lulu Miller]

First, would you be able to pull up that email and read us the initial email you wrote to us?

[Paul Tucker]

I thought you might ask for that. The subject was the dangers of listening to Radiolab. Dear Radiolab, I have just declared my workshop a Radiolab free area. No one is allowed to listen to Radiolab there, especially not me. I think you must warn the public about the dangers of listening to Radiolab while trying to do other things. I'm a 54 year old carpenter with my own woodworking shop. I've always been able to listen to music and NPR News while I'm working in the shop. Several years ago with the advent of the ipod, I was able to listen even while running power tools, table saws, routers, band saws, etc. So far, so good. I felt pretty confident around my machinery. Then came Radiolab. Oh no, I don't think it was the first time I was listening to Radiolab in my shop that I took a big saw kerf out of my left thumb with the table saw. So I didn't put two and two together right away. Two weeks later, I cut one third of the way through my middle finger with the band saw while I was listening to another Radiolab podcast. In retrospect, it was quite Stupid. Listening to Radiolab is so overwhelmingly attention grabbing, it should be done while strapped down in a comfy chair with all sharp objects placed safely out of reach. No doubt the vast majority of your listeners are much smarter than me in this respect, but in case I can save someone else the pain and embarrassment of a Radiolab influenced injury, I hope this warning will prove its worth. Thank you, Paul Tucker.

[Lulu Miller]

So here we are. It's now about 15 years after you said that.

[Paul Tucker]

Yes.

[Lulu Miller]

And I remember, I truly, I remember when this email came in because I was kind of just starting out. On one hand I felt horrible and I was worrying about your finger and your injuries and your ability to steal woodwork, but on the other end, this email, like, truly sort of became a North Star for me. I do not wish any digital injuries upon any more of our listeners, but to imagine I could create work that was so gripping that people might really lose a sense of where they are.

[Paul Tucker]

Oh, yeah.

[Lulu Miller]

I was like, that is the goal this whole way through. And then in the last decade and a half, with every choice I'm making, like, I really authentically wanted to call you to say, first of all, thank you. Thank you for writing in, but also a very belated apology and I'm so sorry about those injuries. And how are you doing? How are your fingers doing?

[Paul Tucker]

My fingers are fine.

[Lulu Miller]

Are they really? Did the middle finger, though, a third of the way. I mean, that sounds like. Did bone go well?

[Paul Tucker]

Yes, but a band saw is a very thin blade, so it just took a very thin slice, but healed. I can't even see the scar anymore.

[Lulu Miller]

Wow.

[Paul Tucker]

And the table saw, that was a thicker kerf, that's about an eighth of an inch thick, and that took some fingernail with it too, but that all healed back up just fine.

[Lulu Miller]

Wow. So did you stop listening to Radiolab when you're using saws?

[Paul Tucker]

Yes.

[Lulu Miller]

You truly did?

[Paul Tucker]

I truly did. I could listen to music, but I couldn't listen to Radiolab.

[Lulu Miller]

And was that truly for the fear of danger?

[Paul Tucker]

Yes.

[Lulu Miller]

Wow. Because it's. It felt that immersive to you?

[Paul Tucker]

Yes.

[Lulu Miller]

And, you know, it's now 15 years later. Do you still. Do you still listen?

[Paul Tucker]

I do. I was especially moved by the recent one on Henrietta Lacks.

[Lulu Miller]

Oh, yeah.

[Paul Tucker]

Oh, my. That was. That got my tear ducts working a little bit.

[Lulu Miller]

For someone who has never heard Radiolab, how would you describe it?

[Paul Tucker]

I think it's storytelling that grabs a hold of you and doesn't let go.

[Lulu Miller]

And sometimes chops off your fingertips and.

[Paul Tucker]

Sometimes chops off your fingers.

[Latif Nasser]

We really, really hope that you've never had a Radiolab caused injury, but maybe you have had this feeling of getting lost in a Radiolab story. Maybe you've been pulled into someone else's life while listening. Maybe our show has made you feel like the world is a little bit bigger than you thought or a bit stranger. If that's the case, if Radiolabs meant something like that for you, we'd love if you considered supporting us. You can do that through the Lab, our membership program. If you join right now, you might have heard you can get a cool artsy tote bag referencing our cheating death episode. And you get other perks, ad free listening bonus content and the knowledge that you are what makes it possible for us to keep making these kinds of stories. If you're already a member of the Lab, we are so grateful for you. Thank you. If you're not and you want to check it out, you can do [e-mail] join that's Radiolab.org join okay, here's the show.

[Lulu Miller]

This is Radiolab. I'm Lulu Miller.

[Latif Nasser]

And I'm Latif Nasser. And today we're rewinding way, way back to 2012.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

To bring you a story reported by this obscure up and coming reporter. Oh, wait, wait. What does this say?

[Lulu Miller]

Lulu Miller, It's a story from Baby Me.

[Latif Nasser]

Do you have you re. Listened to this?

[Lulu Miller]

I just did. I just did. Yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

I don't even remember having heard it the first time, so I feel like I heard it with totally fresh ears.

[Lulu Miller]

Oh, good.

[Latif Nasser]

It's sort of interesting because it's. It's an earlier version of you, Lulu. It's an earlier version of the show. It sort of somehow feels younger, but it feels kind of like it's grappling with the big questions in a. In a very beautiful and earnest way.

[Lulu Miller]

I guess what. Maybe part of what you're saying is like there's something young in wanting to ask big questions that maybe we grow up and are told we shouldn't ask anymore.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah, it's very satisfying. It's very emotionally satisfying.

[Lulu Miller]

Oh, well, I'm glad you thought that.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah.

[Lulu Miller]

Before we hit play, I should say there is some real violence in this episode, so it is probably not best for kids or anyone particularly sensitive to that sort of thing.

[Latif Nasser]

Here is killer empathy reported by Muppet Baby, Lulu Miller. Wait, you're listening.

[Lulu Miller]

All right. Okay.

[Tamara Carboni]

All right.

[Jeff Lockwood]

You're listening to Radiolab Radio Lab from wnyc.

[Lulu Miller]

Rewind. Can you introduce yourself?

[Jeff Lockwood]

Award winning author, fantastic husband, dad of the year dad of the year? No, I'm Jeff Lockwood. I'm a professor at the University of Wyoming.

[Lulu Miller]

Jeff is an entomologist.

[Jeff Lockwood]

You like a bug guy?

[Lulu Miller]

He's a bug guy. And mostly he studies crickets and grasshoppers. And this story involves a kind of cricket that's, well, different. The gorillas?

[Jeff Lockwood]

Yeah. The gorilla critics. Yeah.

[Lulu Miller]

And are they related to katydids?

[Jeff Lockwood]

The way to think of a gorilla critid is like a cricket on steroids.

[Lulu Miller]

Okay.

[Jeff Lockwood]

Sort of like the Hulk Hogan of crickets.

[Lulu Miller]

First of all, he says they're a little bulkier than your average cricket.

[Jeff Lockwood]

And they tend to have very strong jaws. Very strong jaws.

[Lulu Miller]

And mandibles that are really sharp, sort.

[Jeff Lockwood]

Of like a serrated knife.

[Lulu Miller]

And most of all, they're vicious.

[Jeff Lockwood]

They all had to be caged separately. If you put them together, they would.

[Lulu Miller]

Fight to the death.

[Jeff Lockwood]

Yeah.

[Lulu Miller]

Wow.

[Jeff Lockwood]

And so when I would go in.

[Lulu Miller]

In the mornings and reach into one of their cages, as soon as they saw him coming, they'd fly into this rage.

[Jeff Lockwood]

It's really sort of a showstopper. They'll sort of rear up on their.

[Lulu Miller]

Hind leg, beat their abdomens on the ground, flare out their wings, and then clamp onto his fingers.

[Jeff Lockwood]

They would draw blood.

[Tamara Carboni]

Whoa.

[Lulu Miller]

Wow.

[Jeff Lockwood]

So I used this, this glass probe on the big boy, at least until the point at which he snapped off the end of the glass rod. Holy moly. So I ended up with. Actually, there were two that were very large. I would just take their cage when I went in and pop it in the refrigerator and go get a cup of coffee. And within 15 minutes, because insects are cold blooded, they would be anesthetized by the cold. And I could lift them out.

[Lulu Miller]

That's cheating.

[Jeff Lockwood]

Well, that was my solution for them. The little guys I could manage. The big ones, a little bit of chill in the morning is all it took.

[Lulu Miller]

So the point is, these creatures were completely alien to him. There's like, nothing about them he can relate to. But over time, the more he studied them, the more he started noticing things that made them seem way less foreign.

[Jeff Lockwood]

See, I kept these in these, for example.

[Lulu Miller]

As soon as he'd put one into a new cage, it would make itself a little nest.

[Jeff Lockwood]

And once it has that little nest.

[Lulu Miller]

Built, that's home in a very real way. Because by moving them around to different.

[Jeff Lockwood]

Cages, he soon realized that they could differentiate their nests.

[Lulu Miller]

They can actually tell the difference between their nest and another.

[Jeff Lockwood]

Wait, how do they do that? They secrete a pheromone, a chemical, and each cricket is able to self identify its own odor.

[Lulu Miller]

Whoa.

[Jeff Lockwood]

It gave me the sense. And I think there's something to this, that they had a kind of capacity to recognize self.

[Lulu Miller]

Oh, interesting.

[Jeff Lockwood]

We don't see that much in insects, but they had what appears to be a capacity to say, this is mine.

[Lulu Miller]

And then he began to think differently about that crazy rage, too. Because if you think about it, here's this creature, it's completely vulnerable to attack.

[Jeff Lockwood]

They really don't have a very good defense for themselves. They don't excrete nasty chemicals, they don't sting, and it can't fly, so it's not going to go flying away either.

[Lulu Miller]

So maybe that rage is their only strategy.

[Jeff Lockwood]

Which again, drew me into thinking that I understood them.

[Lulu Miller]

Perhaps these little guys were more like.

[Jeff Lockwood]

Me than many other insects that I had worked with.

[Lulu Miller]

So he grew to really like them. But then one day, I'd been working.

[Jeff Lockwood]

With this particular gorilla, Critid, trying to.

[Lulu Miller]

Move him from one cage to another.

[Jeff Lockwood]

And he was agitated and had decided to go on the offensive, which involved trying to come out of the cage. So he was scrambling up the side of the cage, and to keep him.

[Lulu Miller]

From getting out, Jeff slammed the lid.

[Jeff Lockwood]

Down as he was just at the.

[Lulu Miller]

Edge and caught him between the lid and the edge of the cage.

[Jeff Lockwood]

And I, you know, quickly lifted the lid up, and he fell back into the cage. And I looked down at him, and what had happened was I had ruptured his abdomen.

[Lulu Miller]

A split right down his belly.

[Jeff Lockwood]

Jeez. And some of the viscera and kind of globule of. Of yellow fat was leaking out, oozing out of his body. I felt guilt. And then, of course, I felt sorry for an animal. But what really struck me was what he did next, which was curl his head downward toward his abdomen, pause for a moment, and then began consuming his own innards. Consuming the viscera that. That. That was oozing out of his body. And so he was. He was literally cannibalizing himself.

[Lulu Miller]

Wow.

[Jeff Lockwood]

That is disgusting. It was horrifying. I had sort of felt like I come to. I had come to know them.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah.

[Jeff Lockwood]

Then this. This was just so out of the imaginable.

[Lulu Miller]

But the instant that word popped into his mind, unimaginable. He had this sort of Pavlovian reflex. And he thought of this guy, an old professor of his.

[Jeff Lockwood]

Dr. LaFarge.

[Lulu Miller]

LaFarge.

[Jeff Lockwood]

He was one of my mentors at Louisiana State University. This was a teacher of his.

[Lulu Miller]

Yep. Insect behavior.

[Jeff Lockwood]

He was one of the younger faculty members when I was there, mid-30s sleight of build, but incredibly intense.

[Lulu Miller]

He's kind of an expert in animal violence. And the thing he harped on over and over, the thing he was trying to pound into their brains was objectivity.

[Jeff Lockwood]

To separate one's emotions and interests from the object of study. And he had these wire rimmed glasses. And I remember if he would ask.

[Lulu Miller]

You a question like why does the gorilla critter do its crazy war dance?

[Jeff Lockwood]

And you tried sort of reading in will intention mental states, maybe because it's.

[Lulu Miller]

Angry or scared, he would just drop.

[Jeff Lockwood]

His chin and look over the top.

[Lulu Miller]

And tear you apart.

[Jeff Lockwood]

His job in the classroom was to make us good objective observers.

[Lulu Miller]

And Jeff, Jeff stayed in touch with him over the years.

[Jeff Lockwood]

I wanted to be good at this.

[Lulu Miller]

As he set up his own lab.

[Jeff Lockwood]

You know, I had a stake in earning his respect.

[Lulu Miller]

And so that day, as he's watching the gorilla critid consume its own guts, he's thinking, okay, what would Lafarge see in this?

[Jeff Lockwood]

So my, my sense through my research is that what this gorilla critid had done was perhaps to have detected the odor of its own fats. It sort of drew the conclusion that this must be something good to eat without sort of grasping that it was its, its own self. The smell of its own fat triggered a feeding behavior that, that's highly adaptive, you know, to feed on fat. Fats are very hard to get hold of out in the world. And so when you smell fats, it's, you know, it's, you know, it's like us and donuts, right?

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah, go for it.

[Jeff Lockwood]

It triggers feeding. Yeah, it triggers feeding. So clearly these things don't quite have.

[Lulu Miller]

A sense of self.

[Jeff Lockwood]

Right. So maybe they're not just like me.

[Lulu Miller]

Which was always Lafarge's point. Don't put the creature in your box. It doesn't want to be there.

[Jeff Lockwood]

It's sort of a moral danger almost to sort of not allow the organism to be what it is. It's almost to sort of possess it or to own it and to really treat the insects sort of with a, with a, with a deep respect. Right. Is oddly enough to treat them objectively. You know, he was one of the professors who actually engendered a kind of good fear and he was the kind of person who you, who you wanted to please.

[Lulu Miller]

But then years later, something happened that tested Jeff's ability to do this, to be the kind of scientist that Lafarge wanted him to be. That's right after the break.

[Latif Nasser]

Radiolab is supported by Robin Hood with Robinhood Gold you can now enjoy the VIP treatment receiving a 3% IRA match on retirement contributions the privileges of the very privileged are no longer exclusive. With Robinhood Gold, your annual IRA contributions are boosted by 3% plus. You also get 4% APY on your cash in non retirement accounts. That's over eight times the national savings average. The perks of the high net worth are now available for any net worth. The new gold standard is here with Robinhood Gold. To receive your 3% boost on annual IRA contributions, sign [e-mail] Gold investing involves risk rates subject to change. 3% match requires Robinhood Gold at $5 a month for one year from first match. Must keep funds in IRA for five years. Go to Robinhood.com Boost over eight times the national average. Savings account Interest rate claim is based on data from the fdic as of November 18, 2024. Robinhood Financial LLC Member SIPC Gold membership is offered by Robinhood Gold LLC. Radiolab is supported by Capital One Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. He'd also tell you that Radiolab is his favorite podcast too. Oh really? Thanks Capital One Bank Guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com bank Capital One NA member FDIC.

[Lulu Miller]

Radiolab is supported by BetterHelp. You've heard it before, but it's worth repeating. The state of your mind is just as important as your physical health. Therapy can be a great way to take care of your mental health and therefore it should feel accessible, not like a luxury. With online therapy you get quality care at a price that makes sense and can help you with anything from anxiety to everyday stress. It can be helpful for learning positive coping skills and how to set boundaries. I need help with that one all the time and empowers you to be the best version of yourself. With BetterHelp you pay a flat fee for weekly sessions that can save you big on cost and on time. Your mental health is worth it and now it's within reach. It's convenient too. You can join a session with the click of a button, helping you fit therapy into your busy life plus switch therapists at any time. Your well being is worth it. Visit betterhelp.com Radiolab to get 10% off your first month. That's better. Help.com Radiolab.

[Latif Nasser]

Radiolab is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about Switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash. Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Lulu Miller]

Radiolab, Lulu. Just before the break, Jeff was trying to be the kind of scientist that his professor Lafarge wanted him to be. The kind that looked objectively at the behavior of insects. We're recording over here. But something was about to challenge that. A little louder? Yeah, maybe a tiny bit.

[Tamara Carboni]

Is that okay?

[Lulu Miller]

Oh, that's great. And there's really only one person who can tell us this part of the story. Will you introduce yourself?

[Tamara Carboni]

Okay. My name is Tamara Carboni.

[Lulu Miller]

Tamara is actually not a scientist. She worked for the Louisiana State Museum, and back in 1989, she and Dr. Lafage, whose first name is also Jeff, were working together on this termite problem. The termites were getting really bad in the French Quarter, and it was her job to preserve the historic homes. And Jeff was studying the termites.

[Tamara Carboni]

I never imagined that I would be fascinated by termites, but I was. So he made it fascinating. Yeah, fascinating.

[Lulu Miller]

But then one night in July, July 25, they met for dinner to talk about how the project was going.

[Tamara Carboni]

And we were walking home. Well, he was walking me to my house around 10, 10:30 at night. And I think it must have been raining or there was a threat of rain because Jeff was carrying an umbrella. And I could hear footsteps behind us, very determined sounding footsteps. And we got to a corner across from my house, and at that point, this person came around us, in front of us, and he said, close your eyes. And in the process of closing my eyes, I saw the gun.

[Lulu Miller]

So she closed her eyes, and a second later, she felt a tug on her purse.

[Tamara Carboni]

I could feel him take hold of the straps, and I was not gonna resist. And as I felt him do that, I could hear Jeff say, don't do that.

[Lulu Miller]

At that instant.

[Tamara Carboni]

I don't remember the shot at all. You know, I. I felt Jeff move. And I guess at that point I opened my eyes. This guy had already run, never took my purse. I saw Jeff running toward my house, and I just ran after him. I had no idea he was shot. But he got onto the porch and he collapsed on his back. And at that point, he was gushing blood. And I was trying to get Jeff to understand that help was coming. And I kept saying, you're gonna be okay. They're on their way.

[Lulu Miller]

And did he say anything?

[Tamara Carboni]

He couldn't Talk. He just. He had this kind of stare. And I just watched him die.

[Jeff Lockwood]

The news came by a phone call. And it just seemed, you know, it was one of those classic unreal moments. Something about this, you know, must be wrong. It wasn't Dr. Lafarge. He wasn't really killed. It seemed particularly hard to grasp.

[Tamara Carboni]

You know, one minute I'm with this vital person, and the next minute he's dead.

[Jeff Lockwood]

Sadness, anguish, confusion.

[Tamara Carboni]

It was hysterical, crying. I was in shock.

[Jeff Lockwood]

They never found his killer, never found.

[Lulu Miller]

Out anything about him, who he was, why he would do this.

[Jeff Lockwood]

It was just this seemingly senseless act.

[Lulu Miller]

And that's how Jeff understood it for years, that it was senseless. But over time, something odd started to happen. Like with those gorilla critted. Lafarge started appearing in his brain, telling him that that word wasn't good enough. And he began to ask himself again.

[Jeff Lockwood]

How would Dr. Lafarge want me to think about this?

[Lulu Miller]

How would he think about his own death? Okay, so I wonder if you do have the essay with you. So he writes an essay. Will you read the last four paragraphs of the essay?

[Jeff Lockwood]

I will. 1, 2, 3, 4. Right. The year after I left Louisiana and came to Wyoming as a freshly minted PhD.

[Lulu Miller]

The first thing he does is he takes LaFage's attitude on violence.

[Jeff Lockwood]

That violence is the baseline strategy for most encounters between and indeed within species.

[Lulu Miller]

That it's not some evil, outlying thing, but instead a baseline strategy for all animals. And in that light, he looks at the actions of that night sort of dispassionately. First he figures this kid was probably mugging them because he was poor, hopeless, poor, angry, scared.

[Jeff Lockwood]

The woman became tangled in the strap.

[Lulu Miller]

Dr. Lafarge, having his own instinctual reaction, stepped between them, said, don't hurt her.

[Jeff Lockwood]

You can have the purse. I can picture him doing this.

[Lulu Miller]

But perhaps that action itself scared the kid.

[Jeff Lockwood]

The young man drew a gun and fired point blank.

[Lulu Miller]

I showed the essay to Tamara.

[Tamara Carboni]

Yeah, well, no, that's not. I mean, I don't think. And I don't know if he stepped forward or not. You know, again, my eyes were closed. I could feel some kind of movement. I certainly don't think he stepped between. There wasn't enough space for him to step between us.

[Lulu Miller]

For Tamara, who's been over the event a million times in her head, doesn't add up so easily. First of all, when Dr. Lafarge spoke.

[Tamara Carboni]

To the kid, it wasn't exactly a command. It was more like, don't do that. It was like, don't Be an idiot, don't do that.

[Lulu Miller]

It wasn't really threatening. It was more like, look, logically, let's not do this. And while she gets that the kid might have been scared and had not been intending to shoot, if he never.

[Tamara Carboni]

Ever could imagine himself shooting somebody, he wouldn't have had to load a gun. I can't relate to this person. I can't imagine doing violence to another human being or killing them. I can't relate to that at all.

[Lulu Miller]

And over the years, her friends and family, co workers, tried all different kinds of ways to help her make sense of it. Nothing really helped.

[Tamara Carboni]

But there was someone that I worked with, my boss actually, who had been in Vietnam, and he took me aside and he said, you know, you'll never understand this.

[Lulu Miller]

You're not going to understand it. Yeah, like, don't even try.

[Tamara Carboni]

I don't think there's any sense to be made out of it.

[Jeff Lockwood]

If we just stopped there, then it's to say that it somehow unnatural or inhuman. In fact, in a weird kind of way, it's profoundly human.

[Tamara Carboni]

There's no way I can understand it.

[Lulu Miller]

In the end, the essay itself kind of falls short and Jeff admits that.

[Jeff Lockwood]

It just isn't sufficient.

[Lulu Miller]

But he says there is a way of understanding this event. He just hasn't gotten there yet. But it is out there. Yeah, it has to be.

[Jeff Lockwood]

And Dr. LaFarge would have, I think, said this as well.

[Lulu Miller]

But for the.

[Jeff Lockwood]

Moment, I think I can say that I. I understand another being's eating its own leaking entrails at a. At a level that I can't understand one of my fellow beings, you know, pulling the trigger and killing a man that I love.

[Lulu Miller]

Foreign hi, I'm Parisha and I'm from Ottawa, Canada. And here are the staff credits. Radiolab was created by Jad Abumrad and is edited by Soren Wheeler. Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser are our co hosts. Dylan Keefe is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Blum, Becca Bressler, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Maria Paz Gutierrez, Sindhu, Niana Sambandam, Matt Kielty, Annie McKeown, Alex Neeson, Sara Khari, Sarah Sandbach, Anissa Vitsa, Arian Wax, Pat Wolters and Molly Webster. Our fact trackers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger and Natalie Middleton.

[Latif Nasser]

Hi, this is Evan. I'm calling from Menlo Park, California. Leadership support for Radiolab science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation Science Sandbox, a Simons foundation initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation. Radiolab is supported by Capital One Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One Bank Guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. He'd also tell you that Radiolab is his favorite podcast too. Oh, really? Thanks, Capital One Bank Guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com bank Capital One NA member FDIC NYC now delivers breaking news, top.

[Lulu Miller]

Headlines, and in depth coverage from WNYC.

[Latif Nasser]

And Gothamist every morning, midday and evening.

[Lulu Miller]

By sponsoring our programming, you'll reach a community of passionate listeners in an uncluttered audio experience.

[Latif Nasser]

Visit sponsorship wnyc.

[Lulu Miller]

Org to learn more.